₦airaland Forum

Seun:
You have failed to answer the question. Before moving on, can we all agree that you don’t have any good reason for not being ready to accept Islam as being true if a Muslim gave you the same testimonies that you want me/atheists to accept as evidence for the truth of Christianity?

Which question did you want an answer to. please restate it for me to answer. I thought you wanted to know what I meant by me saying that I am not religious, and I don't think I failed to answer that. Maybe you skipped my last post.

On why I wouldn't convert to Islam despite hearing an outstanding testimony, well the basic reason is that I am not being a Christian by virtue of anybody's testimony.

I was born into a Christian home, that I didn't have any control over. But as I grew, I had learnt some basic Christian principles, and I apply them to my life without the features of religion which can be choking. So far I have seen results- Peace, health, wellness, prosperity, Joy, Success, excellence, hope of eternal life, which is the only thing that makes my existence worthwhile, etc.

If the human existence was only for a hundred years with no afterlife, I'll sign out of it, it'd be a deal that's too shallow to be worth my while.

Seun:
@awesomeJ, have you given up on your primary mission? You said you wouldn’t convert to Islam because you are not religious? Do explain.

On my primary mission, I'm waiting on your Go-ahead.
On not being religious, I'll say it's the way and reasons for which some folks do certain things that define our distinction.
Take prayers for instance,
There are times I do it for 5 minutes, and there are times it lasts for up to an hour.
But there are religious folks who want to always do it for 1 hour because they think it proves their seriousness as Christians, or they hear a preacher set it as a benchmark. You see some checking the time just to make sure.
When I pray for up to an hour or more, it could be due to an excitement in my heart that makes me sing and worship God spontaneously for several minutes, thereafter I talk and even chuckle sometimes have a loud laugh in the course of prayer. I'll use phrases like "you know", that guy I met at the ATM this afternoon" and sorts. because it basically talking to a father. As a matter of fact, if you were my next-door neighbour, you may find it difficult to distinguish when i'm praying sometimes, from when I'm on the phone. So far, I see results, I continue.

Or Tithing, I actually attend two parishes of RCCG. One on the day I have to pay tithe, and the other on most other Sundays. The latter uses customized cards which indicates who pays what, and it's a smaller parish where it's quite easy to figure that out even if you ignore to use the cards. I love to be anonymous when I tithe, and even in certain other things which is why NL is where I spend about 90% of my social media time, and I don't do Whatsaap. So the other parish is about a hundred times bigger, and they have tithe bags which are not customized. so I choose it, and even do a little above the 10% because my motivation is not just the cajoling I get from a Pastor. if it stops working today, I'll quit already.

Fasting. There is a general one ongoing at the moment, but I am not observing it, and I tell whoever asks me in Church. I however have had some days before and during the fasting wherein I fasted.

So the dogmatism, gullibility, hypocrisy and sorts which characterize religion are what I don't exhibit, hence my statement that I am not religious. BUT I LIVE BY FAITH.

I am not saying that my own pattern is the best, and that others are worse off or inferior. I am only stating the pattern that works for me, which nobody else has to adopt.

LightSpirit:
ONCE UPON A TIME, two explorers came to a clearing in the jungle. It was a beautiful place -- thousands and thousands of flowers were blossoming. One of the explorers said, "There must be a gardener tending these flowers, looking after this plot." He was a believer.
The other disagreed and said, "I don't see any gardener here. I don't even see anybody's footprints. And there seems to be no point in making such a beautiful garden in such a dense and deep forest. Who will come to look? Who will enjoy these flowers? Nobody ever passes by. No, there is no gardener. The whole garden is just an accident."

e.

So you just want to patronize us right? trying to find a middle ground for both parties to settle at? Well that doesn't cut it for me, because it's not like I'm unsure about whom I know God to be as to want a new definition from you regarding Him.

The God that I as a Christian believe in is:
1. A spirit with an eternal existence, no beginning, no end.
2. At some point he spoke words which caused creation to happen. At His word, the supernatural brought every physical thing into existence, the details of some I don't know, whether a bang was involved I don't know, but what I am sure of is if there was a bang, it happened at his command.
3. He created man in His own image. He formed him purely from dust and gave him the breath of life. He also made him superior to every other creation that's ever been or that'll ever be, which is still evident today.
4. He has a son Jesus, who came to bring redemption to man after his fall. And those that argue that God doesn't have a wife, and so he can't have a son. Here is what you should know: That humans need their wives to bear kids doesn't imply that every being needs a wife to have a child.

If musk had christened his Tesla model X a son of Model S, would you say he was wrong because model S was never in the delivery room?
God created some beings and named them angels. He created Jesus as his own begotten son.

5. He will bring this current world to an end some day. There'll be a judgement for everyman the kind if which determines who gets to live in eternal bliss, and who gets an eternal agony.

Butterflyl10n:
Don't turn this into an argument bro and forget the purpose behind your thread. They wish to turn this into an argument which is simply type and send via nairaland while you offered an experience.

Stop engaging them in arguments and stick with your experience offer. I believe it still stands.

Suddenly now seun is eager to type responses and shift you from your focus. Stop falling for his / their games. (after all he called your experience offer a game too)

Take him serious when he reciprocates respect by taking you serious.

Well, dear brother, the focus is still very clearly defined. I definitely haven't argued and I won't- that's based on my definition of argument.
I am only trying so share some knowledge with folks to see who picks what. I wouldn't force my opinion on anyone.
When Jesus took time to reply the pharisees despite their palpable sarcasm, he surely wasn't arguing with them. Rather he said things that his disciples of that time learnt from, and which we of now, and those to com, will learn from.
Hope you had a great worship time today.

wirinet:
. The reason safe delivery is such a big deal in Nigeria that requires fasting and prayers is because we have about the worst infant mortality rate in the world. If the so called testimony giver was living in majority atheist but efficient country like Norway, Sweden, Holland or even China, I am certain he would not have lost his first wife and child.

Why not tell that to Ben Carson. Best paediatric neurosurgeon on the planet at the time. Worked in one of the most renowned hospitals in the world. Yet lost his first baby/babies to pregnancy complications days before the first ever surgery for Siamese separation.
It was for lack of good healthcare right?

darkchild64:
What of when the bible said that Saul consulted a medium and she made the dead Samuel reappear abi u never see am for ur bible

Of course I have seen that. But the Bible didn't say it was really Samuel that appeared. Whatever that medium saw could have been a spirit from God or the devil. Have you found in the Bible where a spirit went out from God's presence in heaven to be a lying spirit in the mouth of a prophet who would prophesy to a king so that he would be led to his death? Spiritual things are deep. Understand their crusts first before you try an approach to the core.

darkchild64:
And seun asked a question you refused to answer IF A MUSLIM TOLD THESE STORIES,ONLY THIS TIME REPLACING CHURCH WITH MOSQUE AND USING ALLAH FOR GOD WOULD YOU CONVERT TO ISLAM
ANSWER : YES/NO

No need to address this question I have seen ur reply,and since ur won't become a Muslim because of those stories how do you expect us to become Christians

Even though I'd love to see you saved, I never said I expected you to be.

Seun:
Pentecostal Christians pray about almost everything in their lives. There is no way that he didn’t pray for his wife to deliver the baby safely.


If just 5% of prayers got answered, pentecostal Christians would be doing so well that most atheists would quickly convert to Christianity.


I will do that when you tell us whether or not you would convert to Islam if a Muslim gave almost identical testimonies as evidence for Islam.

He also didn't say whether or not he was a Christian at the time. Remember I mentioned today was his first day in our church, and he didn't quite look religious. He might have been an unbeliever.

Now check out this argument, and tell me what you think of its proponent:

Pentecostal Christians pray about everything,
Therefore a man who shared a testimony in a Pentecostal church prayed about all his past experience.

On the Islam stuff, I already gave my answer, check page 1. Your turn now.

darkchild64:
the proof that we can not deny is a regrown limb,show us a video of an amputee getting a new limb and you win your argument

You're welcome. But I don't even have an argument, talk less of wanting a win. In case, you're not clear about the thread's purpose. It's to get someone specific to sign up for an experience whose terms we'll both agree on beforehand, that will give him a super strong proof for the existence of God.

However, if you want this limb proof so bad. Get a US visa on your passport and go visit Pastor Keith Moore in Brason Missouri. Tell him you want to be a student in his healing school for 1 year. Now while most healings that'll take place there wouldn't appear extraordinary, because God is not a magician, and it would be demeaning to his personality to try impress you. But I guarantee to 100% that if you make it to every session, you'll see 1 or 2 0r 3 or more of spectacular and extraordinary healing experience on a scale of a regrown amputated limb, before you complete your stay.

And about a Muslim sharing that with me. I'll definitely believe him if he said he experienced it, but I won't change to Islam because I'm not even religious to begin with. I live by Faith, it's a different experience from being religious-at least by my definition.
So I'll believe the guy, because he is the one who experienced it, so it defies logic for me to try redefining someone's experience to them. I'll simply attribute it to God's love and mercies. Cos contrary to your belief,it's only your sin God hates, he not only likes you, he actually love you more than your parents or spouse do.

Or I could just attribute it to something about the workings of God that I am yet to learn.

I hear people talk about their experience of seeing reincarnated dead people. I don't believe in that, and my disbelief in it is founded on the scripture that says "it is only appointed for man to die once". But since I'm not high I don't disbelief the experience they state, neither do I try convincing them that they didn't see what they claimed. Rather I just think it's either a demon puts on the appearance of such dead folks, or there's still a phenomenon that I'm yet to understand. I think this is a better approach to worldview than trying to convince folks who describe their experience of the supernatural against their own sharp mental records solely because spirituality doesn't exist I. your world, and so it musn't in anyone else's.

Seun:
Here’s the problem with testimonies. They suffer from selection bias. When people experience bad luck, they don’t give testimonies, but when they experience good luck, they give testimonies. That gives listeners the impression that more good things are happening to the brethren.

If you told us the story of your life, mentioning only the positive things you have experienced, we would be envious of your good fortune.
However, if you mentioned only your negative experiences, we would think you were the most pathetic loser in the world. See what I mean?


The urge to pray in a church and cry to God was not mysterious. It is normal for a Christian who thinks his wife will die to do such things.

The successful delivery of his second wife was to be expected, since most deliveries are successful. The fact that he lost his first wife and child in childbirth makes the story even less impressive to me, because he would have taken more precautions e.g. getting her admitted at a better hospital. It also made me wonder why his miracle-working God didn’t answer his prayers when his first wife and child died on the same day.

The fact that both wives had difficult deliveries may be a coincidence. It may also be that he is a large man attracted to small-sized women.

Suppose a Muslim told you the same story you just told us, only replacing words like ‘church’ with ‘mosque’, etc. Would you convert to Islam?

First he didn't mention that he prayed in the instance of the first wife. Even if he did, we don't claim as christians that every prayer gets answered. Just as not every spray of fuel into a cylinder produces the kind of intense pressure that drives automobiles. There are principles governing everything, and they must be rightly applied. That's the nature of God.

So you attribute this testimony purely to luck and coincidence with no supernatural influence whatsoever right. I take that, and I'm not even surprised. I knew even with a proof that you can't deny, you still may choose not to believe, which is why we're gonna do something more than just testimonies to get you this proof.

By the way, I know you also have reasons which explain why the third testimony is also purely of luck. please share those reasons. I have an interest in seeing just how good you are at twisting super obvious facts around.

And after you've done that let me know if we can proceed to the part of your personal evidence.

obiZEAL:
Lolz.... I guess god delivered her of the baby, so when she is in labour for his next child he should simply take her to the church and save everyone's time and effort.

If you had read the post well enough, you would have seen that his faith didn't make him boycott the natural channel and means. It was when things got beyond what these naturals could handle, that he resorted to prayer, and you can ask him years from now, it paid off.

By the way, let me state what I think your dissapoint has been.
You opened the thread in hope to find some half-baked, ill-thought, irrational and questionable arguments presented for the existence of Yahweh, so that you can just quickly dismiss it for what it is-baseless, and wait for the next one to dismiss, that way, you'll keep thinking those who live by faith have an inferior intellect, and only you atheist see clearly. But your wrongness in thinking this is the reason for your perceived disappointment.

This is my first thread on here, and it may as well be the last depending on how far this goes with Seun, so you don't think I'll be willing to make just silliness out of it when it could have a long lasting effect on some folks.

hopefulLandlord:
AwesomeJ, atheists are following at least judging by the monickers I see below

however I need to say your posts have been disappointing so far as its filled with anecdotes and post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies, they can only be regarded as "undeniable proof of Yahweh's existence" if the person being given the "proof" is already favourably inclined to it

You're welcome.

Akanniade:
;DYou can't convince any self respecting atheist with all these

P.s I am a christain

Dear brother, I never said I'd want to convince anyone. What I said is that I will give one specific person a proof for God's existence, cos that's really how far I can get. If you met someone whose convinced only Gold has value as a money form, no matter how hard you try, you can only prove to him that fiat currency does also-when you give him one to go make a purchase; but that doesn't guarantee he'll be convinced.

You're a Christian? Well good for you. but it's basically nothing to me in the context of the thread.

obiZEAL:
You should be apologising for wasting people's time.

Not anyone I invited. I'd be cool if only Seun viewed the posts. If I wanted crowd, this wouldn't be my first thread in 2 years, and I know what section to post in for people's remarks.

I gave the modality right before I started, what do you think has changed? And I mentioned to someone that he'd modify his expectations, because it's basically an experience for Seun. That's why the topic has his name alone, and not "atheists".

obiZEAL:
...and it was indeed disappointing, you must be a prophet

can't use was for something that isn't over now can you?

So let me get your objections to the third testimony especially, thereafter, we'll move to the part of the evidence that'll be personal to you.

I'll be waiting on you Seun.

Now, I was only in one church, and these testimonies were just 3 out of the 8 shared in just one of the two services in the church. Now there are about 235 parishes under the province, Lagos alone has about 68 provinces, and RCCG is just one out of the thousands of denominations on the globe, and ours is just one out of the over 200 generations that have lived since Christ. Today was just one service day out of over 5000 that'll be in every 100-year generation. Now put these numbers together and see how vast the testimonies will be of the experience people have had of God globally over the years. And there are yet several people who don't even share their testimonies despite how well they acknowledge them.

Finally was this couple. Theirs was most overwhelming.
Got married in 2013, and despite much expectations, there were no babies. So in 2014, the husband suggested that they went for medical check up (you probably don't think Christians do).

After all the examinations, they found two fundamental issues wrong with the wife's reproductive system:
1. Her ovaries were not functioning.
2. Her womb was too small at 5 inches versus 6-7 inches that women should have. So it was too small, it wouldn't hold a baby.

So basically, all hope was lost for them medically, if there were any ways around it, I'm sure the doctors would have informed them, but surely, there wasn't.

So the couple took a step of faith, and emptied their bank accounts to the church, and by faith they exchanged the doctors' report for that seed.

Then in 2016, During one of the combined services at the redemption camp, Daddy Adeboye told people to pray that if there was any part of their bodies that wasn't functioning well, God should fix, and if it isn't fixable, God who has the spares should replace, she prayed that prayer, and months after in February 2018, They were standing in front of the congregation with their bouncing set of twins.

The womb that was measured to be too small to hold one baby held two -a boy and a girl safely for nine months.
Mind you, their prior experience validates the doctors' report, so don't bring the argument about doctors being wrong. plus measuring womb size and detecting nonfunctional ovaries are not things doctors can be easily wrong about.

It didn't end there.

After delivery the doctors examined the girl, and found that she had a low sugar level, the husband used the anointing oil on her and an anointed handkerchief as well, 2 hours later, the sugar level was normal. The baby boy was also said to have Jaundice, the husband used the anointing oil and handkerchief on him as well, and 3 hours later, the Jaundice was gone from the boy?

Tell me Seun, how would you question such a testimony?

2. Next out was this grandma. She has two daughters who were pregnant last year. Based on Doctors' stuffs, they told them that both daughters could only deliver via caeserean Section, and there was only a 50%/survival chance for one of them. She came one day to the church to clean up the auditorium with all the strength in her, and in January, both daughters delivered "safely". She however didn't mention if there was any CS though, but I guess "without CS" what she meant by the testimony.

Seun:
If you have evidence, present it here in one post, and it will be judged by all the atheists on this section, including me, if time permits. Cheers.

Like I said, the evidence cannot be a fact, such as science would require. This is not science, if you want evidence, it's gonna be an experience. How do you proof someone loves you, it's basically in your experience of their actions towards you.

Perhaps I should start with today's testimonies.

There were about 8 people in all who came out for testimonies in the second service. I will share 3 of them which I think you may be least skeptical about.

1. The first guy was driving in the estate on Mon Jan 29th, and as he drove past the church, he felt an urge within him if to just stop by the church to pray. So he went in, prayed his heart out, and didn't mind whoever else was there with him in the auditorium. Thereafter, he drove straight to the hospital where his wife had been since Sunday Jan 28th due to prolonged labour. About 2 hours after he arrived, the wife delivered safely.
This was a young smart-looking guy that you'd ordinarily not consider to be religious.
If that was all to the story, it wouldn't have moved much people.

Then he added this: "If you had not seen a terror before, you would wonder why people feared one"...sort of " exactly eight years ago, I got married to my first wife, and exactly 6 years ago, she was ready to deliver our first child, she had this same prolonged labour, and she and the baby were lost to it"

Turned out that was his first time in the Church. How would you convince such a person against Faith in God?

greiboy:
it will cost him what

If he comes back, you'll find out. Not life in any way though. As a matter of fact lives should be saved by the experience.

Seun:
I hereby reject these terms. The last thing I need right now is a distraction. Thanks a million. Feel free to offer your game to others.

Why judge it, when we've barely even started. I told you I hope it'll just be less than 5 pages. could even be 2.

Seun:
@awesomeJ: Okay. I can’t wait to look into your persuasive and objective evidence.

Alright then, welcome.

These are some things you should know about the evidence:

1. It will be something that you'll experience. Remember I once mentioned that your faith in God, and as well the proof you have of His existence can only be based on what you experience.

2. It will cost you.

3. It will bear semblance with the experience of Nebuchadnezzar, as well as Elijah on mount Carmel.

4. Before we float it, we'll both agree on certain details about it.

5. I will first share with you some people's testimonies from today's service, which I expect you to question. But if they rather convince you enough, then I won't proceed with the other one that'll cost you.
You on?

Blakjewelry:
Lol na only seun you wan convert or reconvert because I believe he was there before

More like, na only Seun I wan give proof to. Anybody else can take his proof, or seek for theirs independently.

Liveair:
Pls, can the evidence be provided already...am tired of waiting.

It depends on Seun-how soon he responds. Meanwhile, the evidence is mainly for Seun, it's an experience he's gonna have, but which will be evident to all. So you may wanna modify your expectations.

hopefulLandlord:
This is gonna be disappointing, as always

I don't think so, all I need is for Seun to pick up the challenge. It must work.

So I have had my NL account since Feb 29, 2016. This is only my 175th post, and the topic is my first ever.
Until I started following up your posts on religion, most of my post have been on the Investment section, and none on the Religion's.

I don't really think I can convince you against your atheism based solely on my replies to your post, so I intend using the first-ever thread of mine to present you with an evidence that should convince you strongly enough about spirituality and God's existence.

I hope to achieve this in less than 5 pages of the thread.

Attention: Seun seun.

Seun:
The fact that you performed an action before an outcome happened doesn’t mean the action caused the outcome. Every morning I wake up, and the sun rises within the hour. That does not mean that my waking up causes the sun to rise. Hope you get that?

Let’s say that there was a time when you were not paying tithes and you were poorer. And currently you are paying tithes and richer. You have to consider all the factors before concluding that the tithes are responsible.

(But first, you need to ascertain that you are actually making more money now. If your salary was 100k after tax, and now it is 111k before tithe, the amount you get to spend is exactly the same as before, so you have not actually been blessed. On top of that, you also have to consider inflation, which is quite high in Nigeria. Your salary could have doubled over the years without any increase in your purchasing power.)

Let’s suppose that after all those calculations, you have determined that there has been an increase in your purchasing power. You have to first consider natural things that could have led to that outcome such as getting a (better) job or being promoted, marrying a rich person, starting a successful business, etc.

I can guarantee that you would find a couple of those things. Having found them, it makes no sense to credit tithing. Crediting tithing for your blessings after getting a more lucrative job is like crediting praise worship for your good smell after using a cologne which can be clearly demonstrated to be responsible for the smell.

I am saying that I work the same job, the same number of hours, still single as I was, yet when I project that my investment funds will reach x amount by the end of the 1st quarter, it instead happens weeks earlier in February. Like you said, I have checked, and the only thing that has changed is that I set a new threshold for the amount I'll pay in tithes monthly, and there's been a swell. Mind you, owing fully to the blessings of tithing, this new threshold is about 80% of the salary I had on a full time job about 2 years ago, now it's only about 10% of the current income. So don't you think I'll consider an eight-fold increase in two years blessed enough?

And on attributing certain occurrences to prior actions, The rising of the sun doesn't qualify for a suitable comparison, because not only does it not need your waking up to happen, it actually doesn't need anything other than the earth's constant rotation to happen.

Seun:
How are you sure that the blessings are a result of your tithing, and not your hard work and a little bit of luck? Many people who don’t even believe in God enjoy bountiful blessings. Some of them are the richest people in the world.

You wear a cologne, and you begin to smell nice, someone then asks how are you sure the nice smell is from the cologne?
You have the memory of how things were before you wore the cologne. That's how it is with tithing. You do it right, it'll spell a clear difference.
Mind you, gullibility is too small a motivation for anyone to pay tithe. For us who do-sometimes even above the required portion- the blessings we get are our thrust.

For peeps who don't believe in God, you shouldn't refer to what they have as blessings. Blessings from who?. They're merely successful, and no one disputes that. Now you should get the point clearly. That you drive to Abuja doesn't change the fact that there are others who get there by flight. So some prosper by their hardwork, whereas for some of us it's God's blessings on our works that amplifies our success.

Seun:
The argument that God allows bad things to happen to make you a better person fails to explain why God often allows Christians to die as a result of their sufferings, which gives them no opportunity to display the “utter brilliance” that they were “refined” for. How did being roasted alive in a plane, which she certainly didn’t deserve, make Bimbo Odukoya a better person?


Numerous Christians have been raped and murdered, died of cancer, died in car accidents, died in childbirth, died of malaria, etc. Can you explain how things “worked together for the good” of these dead Christians?

One person may have suffered a plane crash for some reasons, but it's wrong for anyone to conclude that it was God who dealt them that. When there are occurrences like that, I just know, there's more that needs to be known than is obvious, but God's ways remain unchanged.
Look at Joshua in the Bible, he had conquered many big towns, and one really small town put him to defeat, if it was Seun, the conclusion would have been that the possibility of that defeat proves the non-existence of God. But this guy knew differently, he made due consultations and got to the root of the problem.

I don't deny that there are christians who suffer these things you have mentioned. some even suffer more-poverty for instance. But there are two things maybe 3, that I can attribute this to:

1. A whole lot live in ignorance. You just have to observe their prayer patterns and actions to see how way off they are. Someone needs bread, but is totally unacquainted with the principle of sowing and reaping. You won't blame God for his penury.

2. Passiveness: remember that scripture in James you mentioned about Faith without works.

3. Sin: it's not just that God punishes you for it. Its effect in most cases is that, it deprives you of God's presence, given His holy nature which makes it difficult for Him to behold sin. Now when you lack God's watch, you basically become vulnerable to all forms of forces- natural and supernatural.

Please try to consider that one month stuff I talked about. I hope you saw it. Have a stress free day.