₦airaland Forum

Inheritance
Who Taught Allah Math?




One of the most obvious mathematical mistakes of the Quran can be found in the division of the inheritance.

The laws of inheritance are spread out in several Suras. One can find references to them in Al-Baqarah(2), Al-Maidah(5) and Al-Anfal(. But the details of these laws are spelled out in the Surah Nisa (4).

Q. 4:11
“Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts…”

Q. 4: 12
“In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts…”

Q. 4:176
“If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them): if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.”

Despite the fact that it says “Allah made them clear”, these laws are far from clear.

Verse 4:11 says that if a man has only one daughter, she gets half of the inheritance irrespective of other heirs. But since the same verse says that the portion of the male is twice that of the female, her brother is supposed to get all the inheritance. Isn’t this a discrepancy? Certainly there is an error in how this law is written. Yet the problem is aggravated further when the share of other heirs like parents and wives are taken into consideration.

There are cases when the total of the shares assigned to the heirs exceeds the patrimony. Take for example the following.

According to the above verses, if a man dies leaving behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents,

His wife’s share of his inheritance is 1/8. (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth)

His daughters would receive 2/3 (if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance

and his parents each will get 1/6 of his inheritance. (For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children

When you add all these fractions the sum is more than the total of inheritance.

Wife1/8 = 3/24
Daughters 2/3 = 16/24
Father 1/6 = 4/24
Mother1/6 = 4/24
Total = 27/24

Now take another example. Say a man is survived by his wife, his mother and his sisters.

The wife receives 1/4 of the inheritance, (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child

the mother 1/3 (if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the heirs, the mother has a third

and the sisters 2/3. (If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them)

When we add up these fractions they too are more than the total.

Wife1/4 = 3/12
Mother 1/3 = 4/12
Sisters 2/3 = 8/12
Total = 15/12

In the above examples, the shares apportioned to the heirs exceed the total of the inheritance. In both cases the total of the inheritance sums to exactly one BEFORE taking into account the wife's share.

What should be done if a man has two wives, one with children and the other without children? Does the one with children receive 1/8 and the one without children 1/4? And is this justice?

Now suppose a woman dies leaving a husband and a brother:

Husband receives half (In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child.)

Brother receives everything (If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance.)

Does this mean that the parents, sisters and husband do not get anything? In that case where is the justice and if they do how can the brother get everything?

Husband, (1/2) = 1/2
Brother (everything) = 2/2
Total = 3/2

This verse does not specify that the brother gets everything only when there are no other heirs. It just says when there are no children he gets everything. In the same verse it says that if a man dies leaving a sister, she gets half. What will happen to the other half?

Here is another example: A woman leaves behind a husband, a sister and a mother.

Husband, (1/2) = 3/6
Sister (1/2) = 3/6
Mother (1/3) = 2/6
Total = 8/6

We can conclude that the Quran in matters of inheritance is a very obtuse book. It is so obtuse that Shiites and Sunnis practice this law differently. For example:

If a man leaves a wife and the two parents, the Shiits will give the wife 1/4 and then distribute the remainder as 1/3 for the mother and 2/3 for the father, i.e. they will receive 1/4 and 1/2 of the original estate (see #2741). Sunnis give the wife 1/4, the mother 1/3 and the father as the nearest male relative the rest, i.e. 5/12. As one can witness, the Quran is anything but clear.

In order to solve these problems the Islamic doctors of law have devised a complex “science” called “Al-Fara’id”. It contains rules of "Awl" and "Usbah," and the laws of "Usool" of the Fara'id, the laws of "Hajb wa Hirman," and many other issues relating to this matter.

The laws of “Awl” (accommodation) deals with cases when the inheritor's shares exceed or "overshoot" the sum of the total inheritance. In such case the shares are adjusted to accommodate everyone. This is how it works:

Wife1/8 = 3/24 is changed to 3/27
Daughters 2/3 = 16/24 is changed to 16/27
Father 1/6 = 4/24 is changed to 4/27
Mother1/6 = 4/24 is changed to 4/27
Total = 27/24 27/27

and for the second case,

Wife1/4 = 3/12 is changed to 3/15
Mother 1/3 = 4/12 is changed to 4/15
Sisters 2/3 = 8/12 is changed to 8/15
Total = 15/12 15/15

Thus the problem is solved thanks to human ingenuity but the portions are not the same as indicated in the Quran. Each party has to waive part of his or her share in order to make this law work. This is a clear case in which the words of Allah needed human intervention in order to become applicable.

There are yet cases when the shares of the inheritors do not sum to a whole 100% and there is a surplus left.

Take for example a man who dies and leaves his wife and his parents.

Parents 1/3 = 4/12
Wife 1/4 = 3/12
Total = 7/12

Or in following cases::

scenario fund distributed surplus
Only a wife: = 1/4 3/4
Only a mother: = 1/3 2/3
Only a daughter = 1/2 1/2
Two daughters = 2/3 1/3
Only a Sister = 1/2 1/2
A mother and a sister = 1/3 + 1/2 = 5/6 1/6
A wife and a mother = 1/4 + 1/3 = 5/12 7/12
A sister and a wife = 1/2 + 1/4 = 3/4 1/4


In all these cases and many other combinations there is a surplus. What will happen to this surplus? Who will inherit it?

To deal with this problem the law of "Usbah" comes to effect. This law is to regulate the unclaimed shares, which have no corresponding people to receive them. Of course if the Quran was clear with no errors, there would have been no need for all these “sciences” and amendments.

The law of Usbah is based on the following Hadith.

Sahih Bukhari 8. 80. 724
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, "Give the Fara'id (the shares of the inheritance that are prescribed in the Qur'an) to those who are entitled to receive it. Then whatever remains, should be given to the closest male relative of the deceased."

According to this law, a man who dies and is survived by only his daughter with no other close male relative except a second cousin, his daughter will receive half of his inheritance and the other half will go to the man’s second cousin. This seems quite unfair to the daughter, but it would be especially unfair if the man had a needy aunt or a female first cousin that would receive nothing because they are of the wrong gender.

Now suppose that a man has no other heir except his wife and a distant male relative. The wife will receive 1/4 and the distant male relative gets the balance, i.e. three times the inheritance that his widowed wife gets. Is this justice?

What if the deceased has no male relative at all? What will happen to the rest of his inheritance? What happens in the reverse case when a wife has no relatives? The husband will receive half of her inheritance; who will get the other half?

Note that in the Quran there is no priority for the distribution of the inheritance. In nowhere it says “first give to these and from what is left, give to those”. Even if we had to reinterpret these laws and prioritize them in the order that they are mentioned, it still does not work because in that case, each subsequent inheritor will have his or her share shrunk. Also in most cases the total inheritance will never be used up.

This is the fallacy in which Mr. Sami Zaatari engages. In an attempt to refute this article Mr. Zaatari wrote: "If A [ the deceased] left a widow or widower, the widow's or widower's share would first be calculated as in the first half of verse 4:1"

Mr. Zaatari must show us this instruction in the Quran. There is no provision in the Quran to pay certain inheritors first and divide the rest among other heirs. The fact remains that the Quran in matters of the division of the inheritance is wrong mathematically.

The obtuseness of these laws of inheritance is further emphasized in the following example. Consider the case of a man with only one daughter and 10 sons. According to the Quran, the daughter receives half while all the sons must share among themselves the other half. So each will receive not more than 1/20 of the inheritance. But this would contradict the other ruling that a male is to receive twice the share of the female.

Of course for 1400 years Muslims have practiced Islam and somehow they managed to make these confusing laws work. How they did it? They reinterpreted, adjusted and compromised to make sense of these nonsense laws. They put all the inheritance in a pool and give to each male child twice the share of their female siblings. This solution, though satisfies one of the ruling of the Quran about the inheritance, it contradicts the other.

Despite all these incongruencies and errors the real problem with these laws is not the fact that they do not add up. The difficulty is with the inherent injustice that they embody. A fair minded person cannot avoid but to question, why daughters should receive half of what the sons receive? Why sisters receive less than brothers? And why a widower is entitled to double the share than a widow? Why the Quran states “to the male, a portion equal to that of two females”? (4:11). Think of a man with four wives. All the wives have to share the ¼ of his wealth, if he has no children and 1/8 if he has. In the first case each wife will receive 1/16 of the inheritance and in the second case 1/32. How a woman who may not be young enough to remarry can survive with such meager share in a male dominated society as Islamic countries? On the other hand a man who loses all his four wives will inherit half to ¼ of every wife’s wealth. Isn’t this the formula to enrich the men and impoverish the women? It is easier to forget about the mathematical errors of the Quran than forgive its injustice.

The verse (4:175) claims that “Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.” As we saw, the above laws are anything but clear. They do not add up, the portions are not clearly defined, and the shares are distributed unfairly. It is up to Muslims to decide whether Allah, does not have the “knowledge of all things”, cannot add simple fractions, is confused and unfair or that the Quran is mistaken, and Muhammad was not a prophet of God. It is one or the other, but it can't be both.

@Mukina2
have you read the Contradiction of the Al Quran?

@firdaus4them

If Muhammad was illiterate, how do we know his scribes wrote everything he said?


The Quran is the perfect word of Allah and cannot have errors. Written by Allah, its perfection has existed since time began.  

There is a passage in the Quran that describes the mother of Jesus of Nazareth as the sister of Aaron. It goes like this: “At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: ‘O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!’" (Sura 19:27-28).  

But Aaron, the brother of Moses, lived and died centuries before Mary, the mother of Jesus was born; and Aaron’s sister was Miriam, not Mary. In the Arabic language, the word for Mary and Miriam is the same word, (Maryam) perhaps the cause of this mistake. It is an error that an Arab of the 7th Century might make, to confuse Mary with Miriam, but not a mistake that the all-knowing Allah would make.  

The above error was discovered during Muhammad’s lifetime, and it was brought to his attention. He had an answer for it.    

His explanation went as follows: “The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.” (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book on General Behaviour (Kitable Al-Adab), Book 025, Number 5326).  

There is no way that Muhammad could have known that this was the reason that Mary was called “sister of Aaron” in the Quran unless Allah told him. Mary is never addressed anywhere (and for any reason) as “the sister of Aaron” in any of the Jewish or Christian scriptures. So either Allah gave this explanation to Muhammad as the reason why Mary was addressed in the Quran as “the sister of Aaron,” or Muhammad lied.  

If we believe that Allah told this to Muhammad, then we have to wonder why, to avoid the appearance of an error in the Quran, Allah didn’t explain the use of the phrase “sister of Aaron” right in the Quran in the first place. For example, why didn’t the Quran say something like this: “At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: ‘O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought!’ And addressing her with a pious name of old, they said, ‘O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste’"? Surely Allah, being the greatest of all poets, could have found a beautiful, perfect way to explain this issue in the Quran.  

Allah has many attributes, but “stupid” is not one of them. Why did Allah allow His perfect book to be doubted and attacked for describing Mary as “the sister of Aaron” when Allah could have easily fixed the problem beforehand right in the Quran? Because Allah did not fix this passage, many believe that Muhammad was lying to cover a mistake that he, not Allah, had made. Note that Muhammad’s explanation nullifies all other possible explanations, such as the possibility that the brother of Mary mentioned in the Quran was a different “Aaron” from the brother of Moses.  

Also note that the Quran is a perfect book, but contains an imperfection that could have easily been corrected within the book itself, creating a contradiction of the most fundamental sort.  

Surely Allah knew that the phrase, “sister of Aaron” would be read as a mistake by many readers. He knew that the Arabic word for Miriam and Mary was the same word, pointing to an Arab (and who else but Muhammad?) as the likely source of this passage. For all these reasons, Allah had every incentive to correct this problem in the Quran so that it would not look like Muhammad’s mistake; but He didn’t correct it.  

Therefore, we conclude that Allah did not write the Quran.  

However it is very likely that this hadith was forged and falsely attributed to Muhammad. It is an attempt of the Muslims to whitewash Muhammad’s error.

whom should a person owe more allegiance to, his maadr-e-watan (motherland) or the Ummah (Nation of Islam)?

We can easily see that the Moon is not above the stars as the Quran says, the mountains are not pegs to hold the Earth from shaking, the sky is not a dome sustained by invisible pillars, the stars are not lamps to adorn this dome, the sun does not set in murky waters, the tale of the foetus as explained in the Quran is nonsense, the fractions given by Muhammad to divide the inheritance do not add up, Mary the mother of Jesus was not the sister of Aaron and Moses, and countless other statements of the Quran are false.

Muhammad talks about the Day of Judgement. In other words, all those who have died so far are nowhere until that day come. They are neither in paradise nor in hell. They are dust scattered on this Earth and some of that dust may be in you, waiting to be resurrected in the Day of Judgement, come back to life and receive their judgement. But again Muhammad forgot about this and in the Quran he said those who died in the way of Allah have already gone to paradise and are sending messages that they are content there. How this could be? What about the Day of Judgement? Do you see the inconsistency and the stupidity of this whole matter?

I Beg you Mr Olabowale Read with a Clear Mind.


"I HAVE a theory about riots: those out on the streets often don’t have a clear idea what they’re rioting about. And invariably, they have a lot of time on their hands.

After all, how often do you find an employed person asking for leave to join the demo of the day? But when you have time to kill, you’ll join any crowd that’s out to protest, no matter what the cause. When Salman Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ inflamed the Muslim world, how many people demonstrating had actually read the book? I must confess that neither had I, but it wasn’t for lack of trying: struggling manfully, I ploughed through the first hundred pages before admitting defeat. So I never actually read the passages that gave rise to the famous fatwa. But I doubt very much if the people who rioted even saw the book.

The same is true for those now up in arms about the Pope’s address at the University of Regensburg. I have printed out the speech, and must confess that it’s heavy going. The offending section is a tiny part of the paper, and it remains a mystery why Pope Benedict needed such an obscure quotation in his discussion of faith and reason. Having said that, he has addressed an issue that needs to be debated: how should believers reconcile their faith with the dictates of reason? According to him, modern Christianity has bridged the gap, while Islam hasn’t.

We can debate his conclusion, and criticise his choice of supporting material, but we can hardly deny his right to hold an opinion. When Muslims demonstrated their opposition to his views, many of them carried placards threatening the Pope with death. In fact, the London police are seeing if they can prosecute some demonstrators for inciting others to violence. It seems that our stock response to the slightest provocation consists of death threats and violent demonstrations. These undignified protests reinforce the worst prejudices others have about Muslims. After all, why should some cartoons in an obscure Danish newspaper, or a papal address at an unknown German university, send hundreds of thousands pouring into streets around the world?

When we were children, when somebody said anything offensive, we would chant: “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me.” As we grew older, we learned that some words are deadlier than any sticks or stones, festering long after bruises and wounds have healed. But we were also taught to be stoical, and not to complain.

In a letter to the Guardian of September 20, San Cassimally of Edinburgh writes: “As a Muslim, I am much more saddened and shocked by the murder of the Somali nun than by what the Pope said in Regensburg, even if he knew exactly what he was doing.”

I would add that I am far more horrified by the endless Muslim-on-Muslim killing going on in Iraq than by anything the pontiff could possibly say. According to UN estimates, an average of a hundred Iraqis are being killed every day, almost invariably by other Iraqis. And all too often, many of the victims are tortured to death. When Israel killed a thousand Lebanese civilians in a month of senseless bombing, Muslims (and others with a conscience) around the world were rightly incensed. But approximately the same number of Muslims are being killed by other Muslims every 10 days in Iraq, and there are no protests anywhere. Before the invasion of Iraq, when Saddam Hussein tortured and gassed his own people with impunity, I do not recall any Muslims condemning him publicly.

Applying these same double standards, when Nato forces accidentally kill Afghans, we are furious. But when the Taliban kill innocent Afghans in suicide bombings, and assassinate teachers for teaching girls, we look the other way. Similarly, when the Iranian authorities rig elections and suppress their own people, we are silent spectators. But when President Ahmedinejad is seen as standing up to the West, we applaud him loudly.

This kind of moral inconsistency is reflected in the treatment non-Muslims generally get in Muslim countries. For instance, while the 300,000 Iraqi Christians were treated as equal citizens in Saddam’s secular regime, two-thirds of them have fled the increasingly Islamic nature of the present government. In Pakistan, we are regularly and correctly pilloried by human rights organisations for the wretched social and legal status of our minorities. Saudi Arabia, while funding Wahabi mosques across the West, refuses to permit non-Muslims to build their places of worship on its soil.

I am often asked why Muslims in Pakistan get so worked up about Bosnia, Chechnya and Palestine. I try and explain in terms of the ummah, and the feeling of connectedness between, say, Indonesian Muslims and Turkish Muslims. But I fear this is only a small part of the real answer. The truth is that the problems we face in much of the Muslim world are often so intractable that we escape reality by looking abroad. Matters like poverty, disease, political instability and institutional meltdown are too difficult to be tackled by the inefficient and corrupt elites much of the Muslim world is cursed with. To deflect blame, they fulminate against the West for its perceived anti-Islamic attitudes.

It is this mindless, knee-jerk anti-West sentiment that sustains the jihadi groups, and is now propelling us to a very real ‘clash of civilisations’. As Islam becomes more heavily politicised, it is evoking a strong reaction in the West. More and more, the Muslims who have migrated to Europe and America, as well as their children, are being seen as a fifth column. The sight of perpetually angry Muslims from London to Lahore, marching with placards calling for the death of somebody or the other, is moving normally liberal people to anger.

For me, the really worrying part of the Pope’s address was his demand for the subordination of reason to theology:

“Modern scientific reason quite simply has to accept the rational structure of matter and the correspondence between our spirit and the prevailing rational structures of nature as a given, on which its methodology has to be based. Yet the question why this has to be so is a real question, and one which has to be remanded by the natural sciences to other modes and planes of thought: to philosophy and theology.”

Sorry, but I’m not buying this, Your Holiness. This is precisely why I don’t think faith and reason can ever be reconciled."

@ Brown Eyes

You said

Brown-Eyes:
You point out that Islam is embedded with paganism but so is Christianity.

In this statement you did not dispute the fact that your "Islam is Embedded with Paganism , So is Christianity" . Infact you agreed in the greatest of Volumes that since " Christianity" does This It must be good for Islam the two must be in competition for Paganism?

In Jesus Christ worship That I know very well there is NO WORSHIP OF CHRISTMASS NO LENT IN THE BIBLE ONLY EASTER IS CELEBRATED.

Brown-Eyes:
Nothing wrong with respecting Mother Nature. All living things rely on the Moon and Sun for survival, so what if some people just get so overjoyed with the Moon? From most of the pictures i have seen, Christianity seems to adore the Sun.

My brother There is nothing wrong with mother nature I agree with you 100%. However if the moon is looked for before you Worship your Allah What do you call that? What if the moon is not seen for a whole month ? The fact is that there is no worship of Allah without the moon.

You said

Brown-Eyes:
offerings at the altar are just many of the rituals[b] integrated [/b] into Christianity by pagans.

Nothing wrong with respecting Mother Nature. All living things rely on the Moon and Sun for survival, so what if some people just get so overjoyed with the Moon? From most of the pictures i have seen, Christianity seems to adore the Sun.

You agree that some rituals are gotten their way into christian worship by "integration" you also agree with me Some people are "So Overjoyed with Moon" so if the pagan practice in " Christianity" By Integration How is the MOON watching enter into ISLAM? What was the religion of the Arabs of Mecca before Mohamed? What was there Mode of Worship ? Who or what did they Worship ? Have you any Idea of how they worshipped. So that you can know what is the difference Betwext The OLD and "NEW" religion.

They there are not violent

Look at this

Amen !!!! I am happy I got this and I have not seen any response from Olabowale and the rest of his fellow moon worshippers.

Not so The Religion of Christ have people that have various variation of conviction and you know that in some other religions to give you the right to think so. Imagine hearing OF A GAY MULLAH OR MAULAVI OR IMAM ?

Following Christ does not seek Political domonination my brother. Anyone that Uses Christ to get political Power is Not a true follower of Christ and He will answer to Christ on the last day. We beleive this and all we can do is to condemn this acts.

CHRIST + POLITICAL POWER = Hell Fire

The religion That I am Classified under is to propergate Christ Alone

Members that are on their way to hell fire = Christ Preached in Frugality = sinner= no Salvation

@brother Olabowale

Is it you that said that Under Islam in India The hindu and other where Tolerated? Please read below

"Let it be said right away: the massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese."

http://www.indiastar.com/wallia10.htm


", the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within."

I say this religion na Violent one formulated by a demon possesed muhamed

Dont you see the month starts by discovery of the moon. This is Astralogy that the bible is against. Please I am waiting for a refutable

This just show you that Islam is baba nla Fraud!!!!!

Sun, 15 Apr 2001



Rayan
I have read the reason why you left Islam and other articles and I can easily conlude that your are very ignorant in Islamic Law or Jurisprudence.

About Ahadiths (Sunnah):
Their are alot of false and weak ahadith and according to Shariah Law, the authentic can only be legitimate, such as Sahih Bukhari.

Sina
All the hadiths that I quoted are from Bukhari and Muslim and I gave the references. If you failed to even check that how objective can you be in judging the rest of my articles?



Rayan
“Not all Islamic rulings can be implemented at any given time and place. For example, the law of the cutting of the hands and feet due to theft, can not be implemented on society, until society has reached close to spiritual perfection (which is not the case today), and the reastablishment of the Islamic leadership (The Khilafah or Caliphate, which was destroyed in 1924).”

Sina
Can you prove this by quoting from Quran or is it something that you made up? Who gave you the authority to pass such ruling? The problem with Islam is that in the course of it 1400 years of history any idiot has tried to re-interpret the Sharia and propose ideas that are not found in Quran. That is why Muslims are divided in so many sects. Your opinion is worthless unless you can back it up by Quran, which you can’t.



Rayan
Their are many examples like the one just mentioned. In Shariah, their is an order and way in how to implement specicifc rulings in society. Since the Islamic Nation (Ummah) has lost the leadership (the Khilafah), we are not in the position to implement certain rules, whether foreign (towards non-Muslims, such as the Jizyah Law or Protection Fee) or domestic (towards Muslims, such as the penalty of adultry or theft).

Sina
Whether you can or cannot implement the Islamic laws is irrelevant. The point is that these laws are barbaric in any time. Islamic laws are primitive and backward and wherever they are practiced that place has become a hell on earth. Examples: Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, etc. The more a country is Islamic the higher is its index of human right abuse and barbarity.



Rayan
"The Qur'an:
According to a neutral perspective, it is a very well known fact by non-Muslims and Muslims that the Arabic Qur'an (not the English Transalation of the Meaning of Qur'an), is indeed 'extra-terriestial', that is, it is impossible for it to be of human source. So we can conclude that the Qur'an was Divinely reaveled to humanity.

Sina
You can fool yourself as much as you wish. I read Quran in Arabic and found it tremendously poor and bereft of any beauty. It is an extremely disorganized book and has plenty of grammatical, historical, scientific and logical errors. The English translators have tried hard to hide the brutal and savage language of the Quran. For example when Muhammad says beat your wives if they are disobedient, some translators like Yusufali have added the adjective “lightly”. This lightly does not exist in the original Arabic. There are many cases like this. If you knew Arabic and could read that book in the original language you would not have defended it so blindly. Who said that piece of garage is “extra terrestrial?” This is the stupidest lie that Muslims keep telling themselves for over a thousand years. I checked it out for myself and found that it is a lie.

By Syed Kamran Mirza



Historical evidences, impartial logic, well versed references and all available circumstantial judgments can very well prove that—(a) Allah name of deity was pre-existed much before the arrival of Islam, (b) Pre-Islamic Pagan peoples worshipped Allah as their supreme deity (moon-god). Allah’s name existed in pre-Islamic Arab. In ancient Arab the Allah was considered to be the supreme God/deity (as Moon-God) and Arab Pagans worshipped Allah before Islam arrived.



Let us examine below some valid questions and answers :

Did the Pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times worship 360 gods? Yes

Did the pagans Arabs worship the sun, moon and the stars? Yes

Did the Arabs built temples to the Moon-god? Yes

Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes

What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.

Was the title “al-ilah” (the god) used as the Moon-god? Yes

Was the word “Allah” derived from “al-ilah?” Yes

Was the pagan “Allah” a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.

Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.

Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes

Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.

At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.

Was the Kabah thus the “house of the Moon-god”? Yes.

Did the name “Allah” eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god? Yes.

Did they call the Kabah the “house of Allah”? Yes.

Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called “the daughters of Allah”? Yes.

Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat, Uzza and Manat were known as “the daughters of God [Allah]”

Did the Qur’an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.

Have those verses been “abrogated” out of the present Qur’an? Yes.

What were they called? “The Satanic Verses.”



The variable names (Sin, Hubul, llumquh, Al-ilah) of moon god were used by various tribes of pagan Arabs. Pagan god SIN was the name of Moon-god.





Who is actually Allah?



According to Islamic Theologians (Mullahs, Maulana, Moulavis, etc.), or Islamic teachings-- Allah is the supreme God or creator who (suddenly one day?) talked or introduced Himself with Prophet Muhammad through an Angel named Gabriel, disclosing the truth that it is the Allah who created everything in the universe. Surprisingly, Qur’an never defines the word “Allah” as to who actually Allah was or what was the relation of Allah with pagans. I believe, 99% percent of Muslims do believe that—Allah’s name was invented or started right from the time when Gabriel disclosed the truth (?) to Prophet Muhammad in the cave of Hira Parvat (Mountain) and gave Muhammad the Quran. They believe that before this truth was revealed—pagan Arabs were in the total darkness (Andhakar Zuug) and they used to worship various puppet goddess and that the pagans were very evil people. I can bet on this fact that no mullahs ever told us the real truth, neither they believe this clean truth that “Allah” was in fact a pre-existing deity in pagan Arabia. What a hypocrisy?



Some important factors which will suggest that the name“Allah” was already in use by Pagans as their chief God/deity:



(A) In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through Moon, Sun, Stars, Planets, Animals, wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. At Mekka, “Allah” was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. These three daughters of Allah (there is a Quranic verse about them) were considered very powerful over all things. Therefore, their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were of great significance.

(B) Arabs used to give their children names such as—Abdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammad’s father’s name was “Abdullah”. Logical analogy here is—had there been no “Allah” in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.

(C) Even today, in the entire Arab World, not only Muslims but all other non-Muslim (Jews, Christians, Sabians, Bahai, an atheist etc.) Arabs says—“Ya Allah” as the expression of surprise or unhappiness/sorrow.

(D). Albert Hourani’s statement: “The Islamic name used for God was “Allah”, which was already in use for one of the local Gods (it now used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians as the name of God (A history Of Arab people by Albert Hourani, 1991, page-16, Belknap press of Harvard University, USA)



History tells us two theories of Allah’s existence in and around the Kaba Sharif: (1) Pagans used to call the largest Statue amongst the 360 deities as ALLAH—whom they used to consider the chief/supreme deity (god). Or, (2) Pagan Arabs used to worship 360 deities inside Kaba Sharif, and they used to consider them different smaller deities under the total control of a single most powerful chief deity called “ALLAH” who was invisible (Nirakar) and was the all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally unknowable.



Amazing Similarities with Hindu Religion:



In India’s Hindu religion is quite similar to the number two theory (above) of pagan belief. Although, Hindus worship many different Goddesses—they invariably have faith upon a single supreme invisible deity called “Bhagaban” (some call it “Ischhaar”) whom they call “Nirakar”. And, surprisingly there is no sculptural image/figure for this Bhagaban. But all Hindus worship Him along with other numerous deities. This Bhagaban is considered as the lord of all other deities. What would happen—if some intelligent prophet would have asked Hindus to give up worshipping other goddesses and keeping only Bhagaban as their only deity making it a monotheist religion just like Islam? Could it not be another religion like Islam?



Now some factors which will suggest “Allah” was the Moon-god of Arab pagans:



(A) In Qura’n there are at least a dozen verses in which Allah repeatedly swears by the names such as moon, sun, stars, planets, night, wind etc. It is a mystery why the creator Allah (?) should swear by his creations. Normally, we swear by the name of something much superior to us, such as we swear by God or by the name of our father (who is considered senior or superior to us). But we never swear by the name of something inferior to us. Here in the Quran swearing fashions of Allah (God) by moon or stars hinting us that Allah considered these things superior to himself. And this makes us to think (otherwise) as to who actually acted as Allah in Quran? However, in his explanation of why the Qur’an swears by the moon in Surah 74:32, “Nay, verily by the Moon,” Yusuf Alli comments, “The moon was worshipped as a deity in times of darkness”(fn. 5798, pg. 1644). Perhaps, this swearing of Allah was due to the usual/cultural habits of worshipping moon as their God in pagan customs.



(B) Yousuf Ali stated (Page-1921-1623 of his English Translation of Holy Quran):



“Moon-worship was equally popular in various forms………Apollo and Diana—the twin brother and sister, representing the sun and moon. …in the Vedic religion of India the moon god was Soma, the lord of the planets…….moon was male divinity in ancient India. Moon was also male divinity in ancient Semitic religion, and the Arabic word for the moon “qamar’ is of the masculine gender, on the other hand, the Arabic word for sun “shams” is feminine gender. The pagan Arabs evidently looked upon the sun as a goddess and the moon as a God.



The Pagan deities best known in the Ka’ba and round about Mecca were Lat, Uzza, and Manat.…the 360 idols established by the Pagans in the Ka’ba probably represented the 360 days of an inaccurate solar year. This was the actual modern pagan worship as known to the Quraish contemporary with our prophet”



(C) Influence of Moon in Islam:



Who can deny the paramount influences of moon in Muslim’s life? In Islam, moon is considered holiest astronomical object, and moon is the guiding light of all Islamic rituals/festivals. Contradictions and conflicts are very common with the dates of Eids and Ramadan and obviously it is a chronic problem and moon is the nucleus of this problem. Crescent moon and stars are the symbolic sign in the national flags of many Muslim countries, and it is present over the Mosques, in the Muslim graveyard etc.



Prophet Muhammad compromised to Pagans to establish Islam in Arabia:



Prophet Muhammad did his clever tactics of adapting many rites of paganism into Islam, in order to accommodate Islam among the pagan Arabs. He made lots of political pacts with the Pagan Leaders such as Abu Suffian to accommodate his new idea of religion and he agreed to incorporate many of the Pagan rituals in Islam. Prophet Muhammad asked the pagans to worship only the “Allah” the largest God,

And destroy the idols of all other gods and goddesses that existed in Kabah. To establish oneness (monotheist) of God, he repeatedly asked them not to make any partners to Allah (That is why we can find hundreds of Quranic verses “asking not to make any partners to Allah). Finally, the Prophet was able to convince (by force of course) the pagans to destroy all idols, and on return (he) agreed (perhaps) to keep the “Names” of the goddess of most famous Pagan tribes as the alternative names of Allah—hence Islam has 99 NAMES of Allah.



Prophet Muhammad did command his followers to participate in these pagan ceremonies while the pagans were still in control of Mecca. (Please See Yusuf Ali, fn. 214, pg. 78). , “the whole of the [pagan] pilgrimage was spiritualized in Islam, ” (Yusuf Ali: fn. 223 pg. 80). In the Tafsir (of Quran-2:200) maoulana Yousuf Ali stated: “After Pilgrimage, in Pagan times, the pilgrims used to gather in assemblies in which the praises of ancestors were sung. As the whole of the pilgrimage rites were spiritualized in Islam, so this aftermath of the Pilgrimage was also spiritualized. It was recommended for pilgrims to stay on two or three days after the pilgrimage, but they must use them in prayer and praise to God.(#223 of Shane’nazul by Maoulana Yousuf Ali, page-81)



In Islam many rituals performed (today) by devoted Muslims in the name of Allah are connected to the pagan worship that existed before Islam. Pagans practices of the Pilgrimage of Kabah once a year--the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. are strictly followed by Muslims today. Nobody can deny the fact that, all the above rituals of Muslim’s hajj today—existed well before the arrival of Islam.



It is highly plausible to consider the fact that by incorporating much of the Pagan’s rituals in new religion Islam—Prophet successfully reduced the pagan-risk and it was perhaps one of the most important milestone-attempts to conquer the minds of Pagans resulting in massive breakdown of the Pagans’ moral and support to oppose Islam.

The central shrine at Mekka was the Pagan’s Kaaba (called House of Allah), a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the Muslim’s pilgrimage.



It is the historical fact that the Ka’aba, the sacred shrine which contains the Black Stone, in Mecca was used for pagan idol worship before Islam and even called the House of Allah at that time. The name of the God whom the Arabs worshipped was the god of pantheon—Ali-ilah the god, the supreme, the predeterminer of everybody’s life or destiny—the chief God “Allah”



Who did not read the story of BLACK STONE which was very sacred (povitra) to all various tribes of Quraish. When one day this sacred stone was needed to transfer from one place to another, there was a quarrel amongst the various tribes, as to who will carry that sacred stone? Then most intelligent and righteous young boy Muhammad (was not a prophet then) invented the solution of this serious problem. He (Muhammad) put this sacred stone over a Chaddor (piece of cloth) and asked one representative from each tribe to hold the Chaddor and carry the stone. I narrated this story briefly just to prove that—black stone did exist long before Islam was invented.

In summary, it has been truthfully and logically proven with all possible available circumstantial evidences/rational that, Islam was not a new religion but it is a reformed paganism. I believe thatall these monotheistic religions have more or less similar origins. This idea of monotheistic religion was not a brand new invention. Monotheistic thought was declared by Ancient Pharaoh Kings, Mesopotamia’s king Hamarubi (3000 B.C.), and Alexander the Great (300 B.C.). Differences were, these kings demanded that they themselves were the God whom everybody should worship.



References:



1. The Holy Qur’an, Translated by A. Yousuf Ali, Published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, 1983

2. Buchari Sharif, Bengali Translation by Maulana Muhammad Mustafizur Rahman, Sulemani Printers and Publishers, Dhaka, Second edition-1999

3. A History of the Arab peoples, by Albert Hourani, the Belknap press of Harvard University press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1991

4. Dr. Robert Morey, 1996 Research and Education Foundation.

5. Gilchrist, The Temple, The Ka’aba, and the Christ (Benoni, South Africa, 1980), p. 16.

6. G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah?, (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994), pg. 138

7. Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim, (Prometheus, Amherst, 1995) p. 42.



8. Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1971, II:1093.)

9. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (ed. Hastings), I:326.



10.The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology, Arthur Cotterell and Rachel Storm, Lorenz Books, New York 10011, Anness Publishing Limited 1999

11. Roots of the Western Tradition, (a short history of ancient world) by C.Warren Hollister, Library of congress cataloging-in-publication data, 6th edition, 1



Syed_mirza@hotmail.com

@babyosisi

You are solid I have known this over 15 years now. Now we know that the parents of Muhamed were Idolatrous people.


@ olabowale
Read this site and answer the question What was the religious background of MR. Muhamed
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

The religion I am classified under is that of the one Christ is the only link back to god.
The real meaning of the word religion is from an ancient word [I]religios[/I] which means "tie back'' you must know you religion and focus is to give you a lost virtue that we as humans had before the fall in the garden of Eden.

I will say this that the heart of man is sinful and sin does it manufacture out everyday. But the heart of Jesus Christ (man and god) is holy and gives out only holy thoughts there is no other person in history or will ever be that has the power to make one free completely without sin.

There are some that say that it is impossible to live without sin but I ask before we sinned in the garden of Eden were we sinners or not? Then what was it that Jesus (god in man form) came back to the world to do?

What is the focus of your religion? Riches or salvation from sin or personalities that cannot save.

I have read the interview of newswatch of "The Man of God" I have a very different View of The man Tb Joshua. I have heard alot about him from 2 different church members, One was attending his church and told me all kinds of Miracle he did.

The other person I heard from was a brother that played the an organ in synagogue he told me he told me he had a dream and in the dream he saw a big snake and people running into it. he told me he prayed and told God what that meant that God should please tell him he told me he got a similar one again.

we were on our way to some place and we had unusual encounters this was not clear to me but he later told me that he had written some thing about this "Man of God" and that is why we were having encounters. first we had the chain of our Okada of on fairly high spead  loosed at Ejigbo Junction  and a near miss of accident at okota junction on the Okada we were on but the car hit the okada that went in our front.

This happened in 95.

I have heard Jesus and only Jesus Say things about who he is a follower. WHAT IS THE HOLINESS CONTENT OF THIS MAN. is the holiness based on Jesus Christ what is his doctrine? when was he saved from the power of Sin by Jesus Chrst ?

Look at the man's Personal Character

Temperament
Meekness
love of God


What is The greatest Miracle? read The words Of Jesus Christ Our saviour You will find that it is to be free from sin and the Power of Sin. All this Miracles if it does not make Jesus More Powerful and make people more HOLY then there is a question mark. Because he said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.

Well The bible says and they that know their God will do exploit. Jesus say my sheep hear my voice. you dont need to say we should not Judge. Jesus is the Righteous Judge and that is the measure we should use to judge people that say they are men of God.

WE MUST TRY ALL SPIRITS. we are supposed to take everything hook line and sinker because of miracles. I have seen Miracles that had made people worse please THE GREATEST MIRACLE IS TO BE SAVED FROM THE GRIP OF SIN THAT IS THE REASON WHY JESUS CAME BUT BECAUSE SIN IS RIFE IN THE CHURCH AND THE CRAVE FOR MATERIAL WEALTH IS HIGH. I have attended several Churches and there is this desire for miracles.

I have read the interview of newswatch of "The Man of God" I have a very different View of The man Tb Joshua. I have heard alot about him from 2 different church members, One was attending his church and told me all kinds of Miracle he did.

The other person I heard from was a brother that played the an organ in synagogue he told me he told me he had a dream and in the dream he saw a big snake and people running into it. he told me he prayed and told God what that meant that God should please tell him he told me he got a similar one again.

we were on our way to some place and we had unusual encounters this was not clear to me but he later told me that he had written some thing about this "Man of God" and that is why we were having encounters. first we had the chain of our Okada of on fairly high spead loosed at Ejigbo Junction and a near miss of accident at okota junction on the Okada we were on but the car hit the okada that went in our front.

This happened in 95.

I have heard Jesus and only Jesus Say things about who he is a follower. WHAT IS THE HOLINESS CONTENT OF THIS MAN. is the holiness based on Jesus Christ what is his doctrine? when was he saved from the power of Sin by Jesus Chrst ?

Look at the man's Personal Character

Temperament
Meekness
love of God


What is The greatest Miracle? read The words Of Jesus Christ Our saviour You will find that it is to be free from sin and the Power of Sin. All this Miracles if it does not make Jesus More Powerful and make people more HOLY then there is a question mark. Because he said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.

Well The bible says and they that know their God will do exploit. Jesus say my sheep hear my voice. you dont need to say we should not Judge. Jesus is the Righteous Judge and that is the measure we should use to judge people that say they are men of God.

WE MUST TRY ALL SPIRITS. we are supposed to take everything hook line and sinker because of miracles. I have seen Miracles that had made people worse please THE GREATEST MIRACLE IS TO BE SAVED FROM THE GRIP OF SIN THAT IS THE REASON WHY JESUS CAME BUT BECAUSE SIN IS RIFE IN THE CHURCH AND THE CRAVE FOR MATERIAL WEALTH IS HIGH. I have attended several Churches and there is this desire for miracles.

@belloti

Thank you very much muslims have the right to be angry and about insinuation at there religion I find it difficult why you dont also think that when you call the People that follow the teaching of Christ Infidels and Insult the bible that was written of 4000 years to do.

I perhaps feel from your response you feel that we dont feel bad at all when statements about Jesus and our Holy book. We are followers of christ and we dont worry ourselves about your book The quran we are busy apply our bible on our lives to be holy and prepare to Meet JESUS OF THE BIBLE OUR LORD AND GOD.

@ Olabowale

My brother in Tribe I am happy that the aspect of The religion of Islam that is violent is not present in the yoruba areas where I am from we never or hardly fight just because the Islam we know was not made to be a state religion we know why the states where there is violence is because the people are not 1st nigerians but Islamist that must make all Nigeria become an Islamic nation.

You have agreed in your sumation that you sometimes are angry and

olabowale:
@Babyosisis: As a person I try very much to bite my tongue. The biggest attack a person can visit upon me is to abuse my family, any one of them with word.

You could hit me, but do not abuse my family. Yet, I love any of the prophet of God more than any member of my family. I love Muhammad (AS). So when I hear or read about any abuse of this nobility, I weep inside. I have to compose myself in order to continue to be civil. Maybe, if i show kindness, God may soften the heart and the speech of that person who is that vile against this beloved man (AS).

I fear that a person may reject faith through my action, so I strive for goodness. Words hurt. It hurts and deep wound is created.

You have the right as a person to do all you want in Christianity but as a followers of Christ you are not Forced and Any true Christian does not War to make Christianity a state Religion. The Purest form Islam is When Islam is a state religion and We have people to Enforce The Sharia.

Infact I know that Osama bin Ladin Wanted the Americans out of Saudia Arabia that is where his problems came with his former allies against RUSSIA. You must know that the quest to have a pure form of the Worship of allah will never die in the hearts of those who seek to make it so and they are angry that ontop of this "PAGAN" state they insult our "Prophet" This is where the problem is .

As for me you can Choose to insult My Christ and God Jesus The Son of God What did they not do to you But them all where are they now.
Jesus was Slapped for my sake
He was hanged on he tree for my sake
He was pierced in his side for my sake
He was mocked
He never hit back Yet he was and is God Though he had the to he never did

you have and will never be able to do any of these directly to him.

@ feelgood,

Ok since you say we should walk with leaves and not wear clothing we should also have sex on the streets in the glare of our children.

The clothes are supposed to be won in the bedroom for you and your husband simple and short. Why do we like to run away from reason when it comes to the matter of Holiness.

Holiness is a simple matter but yet still it is been made very difficult by Norminal christians. God sew the first real clothes for us and Blood was shed to cover our SINS and unclothedness THE PHYSICAL AND THE SPIRITUAL. So read the bible.

There is nothing wrong in wearing all those Funny clothing if only it is in your room with your husband as the soul admirer it is not for your kids or anyone else.

@ babs787,

well you mst know that there names and places used for people and places at particular times. do you know that SOLOMON WAS CALLED JEDIDIAH?

You dont know bible please dont confuse your selves I search the scriptures please do the same dont be copying and pasting it makes it looks as if you are just playing

Search the scriptures in them you think you have eternal life.

dearzi,

I think you would have advised I should not eat at all or anoint my face with the variuos oils using a deodorant has already told you as the meaning implies To take away bad odor if you have it.

Yes out of 2 or more wittness a truth is established. you talked about making xtianity Hard? read the Very words of Jesus where he said the way is difficult. It is not difficult or hard because he made it so but because we are in the body and our body demands things that are contrary to God.


Please If you have a daughter may be you will let go further and have Breast plastic upgrade Facial Plastic Surgery hair transplant and other types of deformity so that her man will be kept to her when she marries. I ask you Where is The Line in the LOOK GOOD BOOKS THAT ARE ARROUND.

Whatever will enhance the body my brother in the way God made it please "Touch it" But if it is sinful it make us looks less than the way God made us please flee it.

@ babs
you did not read my explaination i think your middle name is mischief you are just copying and pasting i take time to write and you take time to read ok.

What is accurate in this world that is visible 100% only the spiritual is 100% read the bible and dont die in your state and meet the mighty maker in this state!

The weakness of the bible is the strongest part it gives you the mind to search the great mystery and treasure of God my brother search the scripture. tell me of another book that was written over a period of 4 thousand years?

@ babs787

I dont know your orientation but there is not a single contracdiction at all is in the bible. look at the bible very well why is that we had account of 4 gospel in a bible why is that we have chronicle of the kings and that of KINGS we know that people have account of events and because of wrong mathematical perception and names given same person.

my brother is there any book of those times 2000 years ago that you can read now ? do you have other account that you can use to compare it. the mathematical or nomenclature may not be clear to us but in the context of what the inspired individual writer saw is what they wrote down and it did nt have any moral missdirection.

If the bible says someone did something evil does that mean that God is evil it an account and his children know the meaning. When the person that made nuclear bomb made it he may have probably did not know it will kill people of the measure but it was released for Goodness and it was used for evil does that make the maker of the H Bomb evil completely.

You must understand that God wrote through the feeble hands of men and only his Children know the intent of God Just be ready to meet him . dont be weighed and found wanting it is a terible thing to fall in the hands of his maker.

@Lafile
Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

When you are gving a sacrificial lamb do you paint or alterate it ? Do you give the substandard or deformed one ?

You need to live among the ones that are holy listen to their speeches it is as if christ was living and directing them.

You know the ones that are holy and you cant anything else wrong but there outward look is not that strange you cant convict them of sin ( The Holy Born gain ones).

James 3

12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Also read Hebrews 10 v 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

THis means that The things that were done in the old testament was a shadow of what will happen in the new testament.

Go down to that Chapter 10 and read
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water

In worshiping of God by the children of Isreal THE TEMPLE HAD 3 PARTS THE OUTWARD PART INNER PART AND THE HOLIEST OF HOLIES.
OUTWARD PART IS THE ASPECT OF THE PHYSICAL WORSHIP OF GOD
INNER PART IS THE INWARD PART OF THE WORHIP OF GOD
HOLIES PART IS WHERE PEOPLE DREAD IN THEDAYS OF THE WORSHIP OF THE CHILDREN OF ISREAL THIS IS WHERE GOD HIMSELF COMES DOWN AND IF A PRIEST IS NOT HOLY HE CAN DIE IN THERE.

SO THE WRITER OF THIS BOOK KNOWS WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER 10 . I have people say alot about the appearance of this type of Christians but please they are not knew look at The methodist or look at pictures of the holy old early church you will see their appearance

I think that You dont Know what Jesus Our God Said No mincing words The theif cometh to steal kill and destroy.

@ brownsuga You are in minority and thank JESUS You are not in an arab country You may not last. It is either you are a fanatic or You sponsor one.

 It is in your Quran read it or you have not reached yet? Voilence is a form of Jihad How did Mr Muhamed spread it? With a correct sharp sword.

I saw a muslim brother come back from Libya and he told me he wants to start going to church. I asked him why he said they were very wicked. This my friend is a Ghanaian he name is Shuaibu But we call SHAIBEBE. Even in Ghana here if you are looking for thugs to beat people up you have to go to ZONGOS {THEY ARE ISLAMIC SLUMS} The most notorius is NIMA. I have lived here for along time but this people are ruthless.

We were watching a Boxing  fight one day Their Guy Tyson lost  and The other guy won They were angry and they threw a few slaps though I was sad that tyson lost.

Look The Moderates are In Minority and even then in their hearts they lie in wait for any uprising. In Intelligence this is what you call Sleepers The are more dangerous than normal soldiers. There Nothing Like moderate Muslim. when you bring up their evils they say we are moderates.

Yes So called christian Ruler made war with xtians and pagans and Muslims in the early days but look at Jesus christ Peter cut of the ear of a soldier but Jesus The Creator of man put the ear back What holiness humility love peace, no man like Jesus No GOD LIKE Him Jare?

All of you watch what will happen The chaff will be seperated from the wheat. Forget about Muhamed He will stand trial at the great White throne of judgement He will wish he never made those lies. If he had his way he wanted to make himself popular. He killed many My God Jesus raised the dead Yours kiled and the followers are still killing !!!!!!!!!!

You can never stop them Try and let me see you do.

Whosoever that does not receive the gospel of Christ same is an antichrist Period.

Muhamed is a mere man lets FAce Our GOD JESUS.

THE QURAN IS A BOOK OF LIES SAY WHATEVER YOU LIKE FACE ME ON THE BIBLE OR TELL ME JESUS COMMITTED SIN i WILL TALK. THE HOLY GOD JESUS AND A MERE MURDERER SINNER TALE BEARER AND A FRAUD MUHAMED ? CAN NEVER COMPARE THE TWO.

MalikI?/
dont waste so much of your time quoting their quran? a book that can be crammed? They are looking for people to test their knowledge of their book.

The Sword was the method of their preaching you and I know. Their book is like any mathematical formular you can cramm it and use it to brain wash people.

Quran when its gets to 2000 years like bible we will see what happens. you dont ask this question Why do they have a problem with our holy book? Why cant dey ISLAMISE ALL THE JEWs IN JERUSALEM? For Where ? dem fit?

They spread Islam because rome was thrown down, forget their books. The books is a fraud, the author wrote lies in In it. if you talk about the bible I will defend. but if you compare SATAN TO JESUS no need.

We think by comparing their Quran to our Bible we will make any headway no sir! The truth is that Muhamed will be Judged by Jesus My GOD. Did you not hear what Jesus said My sheep hear my voice. We are not of their fold we can never be. One is a lie and the other is false.

I know that the Arabs were people that took in the early christians when they ran away from the persecutions from Roman persecution those times. What made the change? Since then they have learnt a new religion and want us to be muslims by force. Thats why JESUS MY GOD SAYS I send you as sheeps amongst wolves be wise as serpent.

Imagine a muslim that serves Allah wants me argue with him on comparison of My God Jesus. If Brother Muhamed had time he would have said all kinds of things. The bible Categorically calls him a false Prophet, Antichrist because he did not call Jesus The SON OF GOD and GOD HIMSELF. My brother Just Leave them when they come with two books in their hands. If they come with one book I will teach them, their books is wrong. if it is correct why do they need ours. It is a style of satan to divert our attention from the bible and JESUS OUR GOD. Why not Hinduism Budhaism and all the TYs and ISM's.

from what I hear you say you are grounded in the word use the word to face sinners that need to be saved for this other people you can only pray for them because they think they know the truth but are damned. I will rather follow some that can set me free from sin that one that puts a sword on my neck and say I should Allah akbar for what. God said I will love who I love and hate who he hates Who art thou.