₦airaland Forum

Sobriety is defined as the quality or state of being sober. Does that mean a christian should never take morphine?
Shamefacedness means to be extremely modest or shy; bashful. So we are back with to the definition of modesty.
You make reference to Gold and pearls, and I asked if Silver and beads are acceptable?
You are also yet to answer at what price an item is deemed costly?
It does require 'rocket science' to see that the widow's two mites is more than the Rich man's abundance. If one followed your suggestion, the rich people, whose donations were physically more valuable, gave more.

Prayer is purely spiritual, as it is communication from your soul. It can be done without any physical action. How loudly you shout does not make your prayers any louder in God's ears. Depending on the individual, you might act physically (like closing your eyes) to help you concentrate, but closing your eyes is not the prayer and how you act physically doesn't make one prayer more acceptable than another.

The word of God acts on your soul and transforms you from the inside out, and not outside in. Being preoccupied with the physical actions was one of the shortcomings of the Pharisees, or do you not remember the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector? The pharisee did all the right physical actions but his heart was in the wrong place, while the tax collector had his in the right place.

You are modest to the extent that your heart is modest, and not if you dont wear jewelery. One can argue that one whose heart is in the right place will not be spending money on certain items when others around him/her are in need, but you cannot say that anyone that does not wear expensive items is definitely taking care of the needy. Focus should be on the output and not the input.

So anybody think Dallas can pull off the upset?
If Ware plays, I think they can.

@Image123
The bible says we know the difference between right and wrong. What you are referring to is our attempts at justifying the wrong doing, but then that a whole different topic.

On topic, please then answer
- what is a modest apparel?
- what is decency and propriety?
- can I wear cheap jewelery?
- is silver acceptable? or platinum or stainless steel
- diamonds or fake stones?
- are traditional beads acceptable?
- can I perm my hair?
- what about wearing wigs?
- how much is expensive? NGN10, NGN100, NGN1000, NGN10,0000 ?
- and of course what is the standard for the men or are men free to dress as they please?

You talk about praying and going to church, praying  is different as it is spiritual whereas the topic at hand is regards to the physical.
If we make no assumptions about the 'church' , is in not possible to have a church that is inimical to spiritual development?
If yes, do you then continue to attend the church simply because it is a called a church?
Do you not evaluate a church by its works?

The definition of how to dress physically should be measured in the resultant works.

Ndipe:
Even though the Holy Bible specifically advises women to adopt modest dressing

can you then answer (unequivocally) the question of what is modest and what is not?

Secondly, you can address the issue of if men should be concerned about their dressing?

Image123:
The Bible should be the standard, not each person judging for themselves. There's no point feeling you do well, when you can know in line with God's Word if you do well.

The bible does set the standard, but it is only God and the individual that can determine truthfully, how far/close they are from/to that standard. Most often than not, we know where we stand deep in our hearts. The first time a child lies, it is not by the instruction of another. He simply decides within himself not to tell the truth (his reasons being secondary). Adam and eve ate the tree of knowledge, and thus within our hearts we can distinguish between good and evil. The problem is being able to choose correctly consistently.

In this case the standard is to be clothed with good deeds, but you cannot say being plainly dressed guarantees that one is clothed with good deeds, nor being expensively dressed makes certain that the person is not; the problem being that plainly, expensively, rich, poor, tall, short, etc are relative measures. Thus if asked what is plain or expensive, each would likely come up with his own definition.

The focus should be on the good deeds and not the dressing. The instructions as regards the dressing is to guide one towards the good deeds. If your deeds are not as expected, you should move more towards the plain side. Please note that it is not only the physical appearance per se that dictates the good deeds, but wherein your heart lies i.e. who is in charge: your saved soul or your unsaved flesh. The physical clothing just serves as another way of influencing who is in charge. Another example being fasting, as hunger is a need of the flesh, but by fasting i.e. denying what the flesh wants (and needs), we are subjecting the body to the will of the soul.

KunleOshob:
@biina
You are still yet to show me a single christian teaching in the bible were tithes was requested of christians. It is quite instructive that Paul who was a pharisee and their by a former tither did not deem it fit to teaching tithing to the gentiles he took the gospel to who were not a customed to this Jewish rite.

I have pointed you to relevant verses in the past,  but you had a different interpretation of them.
You have decided not to pay your tithes and are more occupied with stopping the pastors that receive the tithes, thus you simply look for verses and interpretations to support your position (which is not difficult given that even the devil could find some to support himself). Since we cannot agree on the interpretation of said verses and that you are intent on limiting relevance to a section of the bible, there is no point in continuing along that road.

Still you did not answer my earlier question as regards the other laws  e.g. do you keep the Sabbath?

Zikkyy:
Since we are no longer considering the issue of tithing here, i would agree with your position above. I was begining to think you consider tithing as what God expect of every christian. My apologies.

I suspect your apology is premature, cos I do believe that God expects all christians to pay their tithes (to whom/where you pay it is a different issue)

I dont understand.

Not sure how best to explain this. Example, When compared to Christ's teachings, Paul's letters were more specific in addressing day to day issues of the church and life, and yet both sought to achieve the same objective.

Now i am confused. I want to believe we are no longer talking about expectations here.

We are talking about expectations. As you can only please God if, and only if, you do what he expects of you. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc pleased God because they did what he expected of them, and they did it without the guidance of the laws. The laws were to help others in achieving this. Unfortunately most were occupied with the application of the laws, and less with the purpose of the law (example see Isaiah 58).

I agree.

Not sure if you meant you agree with using a 0% lower bound? if not 0%, what is your lower bound?
I will place my lower bound at 10%.

What are you saying? we are robbing God if we dont render our tithe?

Yes, if you dont pay your tithe, you rob God.
Note paying your tithe to God and your pastor physically receiving it are two different phases. The first is expected of you (and thus compulsory as a christian), the latter requires some threshing.
I feel the true question should be what should you do with your tithe, and not if you should pay your tithes.

Image123:
@biina
So why are we not following this 'guide to good deeds'?

The evidence of if you are following the guide (or otherwise) is in the resultant good deeds. If you feel you 'dress modestly, with decency and propriety', but fail to achieve the good deeds, then you need to reevaluate your position and make corrections accordingly. Increased concern with your physical appearance (as that is what braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes address) will likely make  it more difficult for you to attain good deeds, and vice versa.

Its like a simple control system, you check the current output against the desired output, and if there is a difference/error, you make adjustments to the input that will reduce the error and thus bring the outputs in harmony. You do not check the input so see if there is error in the output, cos different systems (i.e. people) will give different output even though given the same input. If you are producing the right outputs, then you dont need to change the inputs, but if your output is unsatisfactory, you should check your inputs.

No matter how plain you present yourself, it is pointless if you are not producing the 'good deeds'. Each person has to judge for themselves if they are producing 'good deed' outputs

All this would have been mitigated if there was a set time for disputing the results of the primary elections, and the court empowered to act within said time frame. The losing side should not have the opportunity to derail or inhibit the process of the successful candidate.

With this kinda horse-power, we are simply too diffi-colt to beat

Colts 35-31 Jaguars

Colts 14-0!!!

1 Tim 2 expressed Paul's view and advice on issues.

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

The do's and don'ts were to guide to the good deeds.

Zikkyy:
I think we are missing things up here. I had tithe in mind when i made my first post. It will be difficult for me to answer your question if i have to relate it to tithe. But if you insist,
God does not expect a compulsory tithe from you biina, its your choice.

Sorry for the mix up, but I wasn't asking that you relate it to tithing. Your answer above is ambivalent, as you made the association of compulsory or by choice, outside of the expectation.
Is what God expect of us compulsory or open to free will? For example, God expects us to seek first his kingdom; is it then compulsory to seek the kingdom of God first?
My position is that that which God expects of me is compulsory as a christian, but by choice as a human i.e. you can decide to not do what God expects of you, but then you are not a christian.

I want to believe your question is what to do with your earnings. What God expect from you is for you to show love to your neighbour.

I believe you have left out the most important one which is to love your God; and then love thine neighbor as thyself. This brings out a side point as to if all the laws can be summarized as two, then why give the Israelites ten commandments, along with the multitude of other laws and ordinances?Hint: They were human. A similar analysis can be made of the New Testament, as same was said in so many ways.

Before there were laws on offerings, Cain and Abel made offerings unto God. Abel's was accepted and Cain's was not (wonder why?). Abraham without laws paid tithe, and Jacob without laws pledge a tenth, yet the Israelites were given laws to tithe. The laws were never the end, they were a means.

If this requires spending your total earnings (or a surplus portion you feel comfortable with) to meet the needs of your neighbor (usually to the best of your ability as you cannot meet all needs with your earnings), then you would have fulfilled that expectation. Christ commandment does not require you to set aside a fixed portion of your earnings on a monthly or periodic basis to fulfil this expectation. You are to decide that.

If I follow your argument any fraction from 0-100% is acceptable? I personally have issues with a 0% lower bound.
Lets us be clear that if you pay your tithe because the pastor says so, or because you are expecting multiple returns, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons. It would be like seeking the kingdom of God because you expect everything else to be given unto you. God accused the people of robbing him, and it wasn't because the levites were starving.

KunleOshob:
I believe the scriptures below should answer your question, you can't possibly give anything to God and God has no need of anything from you. How ever as christians we are encouraged to give to the needy and secondly to give to support the gospel. but in reality we cannot give to God. I actually think it is highly insultive to the almighty for we puny mortals to be claimig we are give to God.

Acts 17:24-25:

24 “He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn’t live in man-made temples, 25 and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need.

This answers none of the questions, as I iidnt ask if God needed money.

Zikkyy:
We are talking about a mandatory 10% here. What you do with your earnings is a different thing. Its not a must that we render a fixed 10% of our earnings monthly. Its a matter of choice if you are convinced you need to. You will not be punished for not rendering that sum monthly. I believe KunleOshob response was adequate, but if you have more questions i will do my best to provide answers.

This also does not answer the two questions I posed.

Saddly the guy didnt make it. More saddening is that accidents like this happen ever so often, resulting in people dieing in their prime. Henry's just got the publicity.
There was even no mention of the fiancee stopping after he fell out of the truck. We need to cherish life so much more.

Zikkyy:
@Biina, tithing might be compulsory if you can trace your ancestry back to Israel. It is not compulsory for Christians. For Christians, emphasis is on free-will giving and not a compulsory rendering of a tenth.
@Tonye-tithe, Paul’s approach in 1 Corinthians 16 does not equate to tithe.

Free-will v compulsory; an interesting point you have raised. Under what do you classify what God expects of you, compulsory or free will?
Does it please God for me to hold on to all I earn, saying 'It is not enough for my needs in the first place, thus I cannot part with any of it'? or do you think it is irrelevant to God what I do with my income?

KunleOshob:
@biina
Just as i though, you failed to address the issues i raised, talkless of showing me a single christian injunction to tithe. I have already addressed why the tithing law instituted but you failed to acknowledged that by presenting the question to me again.

There is no point in recycling bible verses as I expect that you have read most if not all; the question is over your understanding of them. I don't remember you answering the questions of why Abraham paid tithe (you only said it was voluntary), why Jacob pledged to pay tithe, why it was commanded of Israel, and/or why God accused them of robbing him by not paying their tithes. Instead you have been harping on why pastors should not receive your tithe and that it is optional.

Do you know that there was a caveat for including the levites as part beneficiaries of the tithes? The caveat being they were not allowed to own land of their own. i wonder how many of our pastors abide by this caveat today.

Numbers 18:23-24:
23 Only the Levites may serve at the Tabernacle, and they will be held responsible for any offenses against it. This is a permanent law for you, to be observed from generation to generation. The Levites will receive no allotment of land among the Israelites, 24 because I have given them the Israelites’ tithes, which have been presented as sacred offerings to the Lord. This will be the Levites’ share. That is why I said they would receive no allotment of land among the Israelites.”
Deuteronomy 12:11-12:
11 you must bring everything I command you—your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, your sacred offerings, and your offerings to fulfill a vow—to the designated place of worship, the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored.
  12 “You must celebrate there in the presence of the Lord your God with your sons and daughters and all your servants. And remember to include the Levites who live in your towns, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.
Deuteronomy 14:28-29:
28 “At the end of every third year, bring the entire tithe of that year’s harvest and store it in the nearest town. 29 Give it to the Levites, who will receive no allotment of land among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work.


The bible is very clear, the reason why levites were allowed to partake of tithes was becos they were not allowed to own property, so any preacher parading himself as a levite today must first of all give up the right to own property before he can ask to partake out of our tithes. Our preachers today are trying to eat their cake and still have it

Again you seem more worried about the preachers than yourself.

BTW you didnt answer my question as regards the other laws

KunleOshob:
The day i am shown one single christian teaching to pay tithes in the bible, i would be the greatest and most faithful tithe payer. @biina i hope you know there are several christian injunctions in the bible that christians are not bound by Jewish laws. Read galatians 5:4 for starters then read the whole of galatians 3 & 5 it really explains what the whole laws were about and their purpose. ALso read romanns 10:4

I am aware of all the passages you referenced, our difference is in the understanding of them. The 'What' provides knowledge, while the 'Why' leads to understanding. While you seem preoccupied with which laws are active and which are not, I am more interested in why the laws were given. I am curious as to your opinion on some other Jewish laws like on sexual partners, eating blood,and the sabbath. Are some or all of theses laws also invalid? Are we still bound by the commandments?

If you dont know the purpose of tithing, then how do know its importance or relevance? Have you wondered why offerings to God were often burnt? but then for you it is all about the pastors who are collecting the tithes and less about how paying of tithes (or otherwise) affects your relationship with God.

Appropriate punishment should serve as comeuppance for the crime committed, mitigate against a repeat offence by same offender and serve as a deterrent to others.
- For some criminals, like one that has taken the life of another, capital punishment is merited comeuppance.
- There is no guarantee that imprisonment will reform any criminal, but capital punishment ensures that same would not repeat his/her offence. There is no justice in using the taxes of the victims of an heinous crime to keep the perpetrator of said crime alive in a prison.
- Capital punishment, imprisonment, fines or any other penalties, are effective deterrent only to the extent that the individual in question permits.

The debate should be on which crimes deserve capital punishment. Some criminals deserve capital punishment, preferably by hanging, as it is the most environmentally friendly.

Moyola:
What does it mean to be Born Again?

Wasn't Jezebel the only woman said to have used make-up n all. . .?

Well. . . as stated above, there's nothing alarming if it's worn in moderation. . . .not d'em 'ojuju' stlye

Did Jezebel not also arranged her hair? so you should leave your hair unkept since Jezebel has made it a sin 
The point was about her trying to seduce Jehu and not about wearing makeup or combing of hair.

kwekwe:
@ jesoul
Easther's beauty treatment was to meet-up with the standard of a heathen king.
That is the world standard.

and God was displeased with her?

Better still, why stop at makeup, why dont we just walk around stark naked since we wear clothes to meet the world standard? Moreso we were born naked and the Bible does not command us to wear clothes. Adam and Eve were made naked and were aware because of their transgression. A 'true' Christian should not be ashamed of their nudity and should walk around bare!

bawomolo:
i heard chris henry is dead.

is it true?

Dont think he is dead, but has suffered some serious (possibly head) injuries after falling out of the back of a truck 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81505a3a&template=with-video&confirm=true

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4749165

segyemaro:
Biina,you are among those that have been brainwashed by those greedy pastors

That is funny giving that you dont know what I do with my tithe, nor if I belong to any specific church
Like I said earlier, the question one should answer is 'should I pay my tithes?' and not 'should a pastor be collecting tithes?'

In all that you do, focus should be on the motive and effect of your actions, and less on the actions themselves. God is primarily concerned with your soul and not with your flesh (which cannot be saved). A christian should always strife for supremacy of the soul over the flesh.
Makeup and jewelery existed in most cultures, even if they were not  necessarily same as we know them today, thus to say people of old did not use makeup is misinformation. Your reasons for wearing makeup, and its effect on you (and others), will point out if the act was sinful or not. If you wear makeup to satisfy your vanity or to seduce another, then there is a problem with where your heart lies.
Do not get me wrong, as it is good to look presentable. Joseph cleaned up himself when appearing before Pharoah, likewise Esther did same before going to the King. Even the ark and temple of the lord were decorated and made beautiful.
Moderation is good as a cautionary flag, because rarely does good ever comes out of being excessive in any thing of the world. Yet I would advise to look beyond that and always ask the questions: why am I doing it, and what have I gained from it.

mavenbox:
Biina and EchoBee: i don tire for the gist walahi.

@OP: Nobody is twisting your hands to pay tithe. If your church twists your hands, you are free to leave the church and join another. Those that are asking whether tithes are necessary or compulsory have already chosen not to give, and those who want to keep giving have made their choice as well. God sees all hearts, so why are we bothering with this gist?

Well my issues are less with the specifics of paying tithes, but more with saying the laws are irrelevant, and thus use it as a premise to justify not paying tithes.
Each law was given to the Israelite for a reason, and that the law failed to achieve its purpose with some is less a problem of the law but more of the person under the law.
A parent threatens to spank a child for a wrongdoing. The child does not heed the warning and goes ahead to do that which is wrong. The parent subsequently makes good the threat and spanks the child. Yet the child repeats the wrong doing. Will one then say it is wrong to forbid the child from doing wrong?
The reason for the law is more important than the law itself. Jesus could reduce all the commandment to just two because the reason for the ten is same as for the two, and if one understand the reasons, he would see there is no difference between the ten and the two.
To focus purely on a law with no thought to the reason for the law is to follow the ways of the Pharisees, who knew the laws and tried to abide by it, but fell short because they didn't understand the reasons for the laws.

@Kunle
You can interpret the verses as you deem fit. I obviously have a different take on same verses. Funnily enough, I have never heard you say modern day farmers should pay their tithesl.
The fact that you do not know the reason for tithing makes it pointless to continue (and its not the reward system most have in mind), as if you do not know the reason for a law, you cannot judge its relevance.
You should learn to answer the what/why/when/how as they apply to you, and worry less about others. Your argument of modern pastors misapplying the concepts of tithes is misplaced. Instead you should ask yourself if you should be paying your tithes (and not if the pastors should be collecting it).

Anyways, I initially stopped by to comment of on leahsarahk's issue, and am not interested in engaging you in a fruitless debate (once is enough).

KunleOshob:
@binna
tithes were never paid in the old testament as tithes was NEVER money. what they did was give out of what the land produced. Biblical tithing is not money it is our mordern day preachers that twisted the word of God to turn tithes to money.

Deuteronomy 14:22-29
Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

A tithe is a tenth of your earnings, be it cash, goods or services. The form is irrelevant. The agrarian nature of the world then made it that most people's earnings were in the form of farm produce, or do you think non-farmers like blacksmiths did not pay tithes or gave swords and shields as offerings? In modern day, most earning are in the form of money, thus its is only common sense that tithe be paid often in monetary terms.

Still my question is : why did God require the Isrealites to pay tithes? why did Abraham pay tithes to Melchizedek even though he did not personally share from the recovered loot?

You can also check that you dont have a bent wheel

There is a reason and purpose for every law. Example, in the OT, blood was shed to appease for sin.
Question then is why were the people in the OT required to pay tithes?

eyoniggar:
Has that gotten you to the top of the table? Farca on top.

La liga na marathon, no be sprint. Leading in december does not win the title. You can ask Arsenal fans.

This is so funny. So judgment day has come and gone abi?     
Nobody condemned to hell is coming back. God's judgment is final! there is no appeal    

@leahsarahk
Firstly, I apologize if this is not suited to your situation, as I couldnt afford to read the entirety of your posts.

On tithes, I have a different understanding and position, contrary to the two black and white positions of paying or not paying tithes (and I think I posted them earlier in this thread).
By my understanding, there are two phases to the paying of tithes and offerings in general.
- the actual partying with (or setting aside of)  the resource
- what is done with said resource that had been set apart.
When it comes to tithes, the first is compulsory, the second is subjective. The act of paying tithes (and offerings in general) was in existence before the laws of moses (by Abraham and Jacob), but the assignment of the tithes to the levites occurred later. The laws of moses did not create tithes, but put the resources to beneficial use as provisions for the levites (who had no other source of income), widows, and anyone in need. I do not subscribe to Kunle & co's position on throwing away the laws. God is unchanged and the word of God is always in harmony when properly interpreted and understood, but I digress. Malachi 3:6+ is clear in its message, you rob God by not paying your tithes. Where you pay your tithe to is less restrictive, but clear guidelines are available. As to the question of how much, 1/10th is the least I know that was acceptable, and the only other fraction I know of is 1/7th. This is not suppose to be a compelling argument, but simply my opinion on the issue, and even if you disagree with me, would it not be better to err on the side of caution?  In summary, I advise that you always pay your tithe, be it to the church, orphanage or anywhere you feel there is genuine need  (in entirety or divided between various causes).

As to your issues with your husband and his church, I dont think you should make it an issue of wife v church. The change has to originate from between you as a couple. Hosea 4:6 says that my people perish for lack of knowledge. You and your husband need to fellowship with yourselves as a couple/family  (dont know if you have kids), dwelling and meditating on the word. Pray together and share words from the Bible. If one understands the word, he/she is less likely to be misled by another. As a couple, you need to be in harmony, both physically and spiritually. It should not be a case of I am right and you are wrong, but of us as a couple/family growing together in the word of God. One should not move so far ahead in a direction (be it right or wrong) so as to leave the other behind. Each must carry the other along, and not drag along. People are often misled by what others say because they know no better. Even if what said person said was true, lack of understanding and/or wisdom could result in poor interpretation and/or implementation. This is not suppose to be an overnight miracle, but something that if done diligently will bear fruits in all aspects of your lives as individuals and as a couple.

Sorry for the long epistle (seems I got carried away)

This thread is a good means of distilling between the Ajebota and Ajepaki