₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
I was going to answer them, but your question #4, is confusing and incomprehensible

MuttleyLaff: God knows what I will do in the next 10 years...
For example...
According to God's foreknowledge, "in the next 10 years I bought a buggati veyron for my daughter"... Can I with the power of freewill decide not to buy a Bugatti veyron and buy her a mansion instead?

shadeyinka:
You still seem not to understand that there is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

Foreknowledge is the ability to see all your choices and it's consequence from the past. It's like the ability to fast-forward a movie and then watching it from the beginning.

Predestination is the ability to decide the choices and resulting conclusions of the choices from the past. It's like the playwright who decides what the characters would be and what will befall them.

The Future is Foreknown by God and Only certain aspects of the universe are Foreordained or Predestined by God.

Why do you think the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world?
Rev 13:8:
"And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world."


If God Foreordained everything, then freewill CANNOT exist.

I find it hard that despite being very obvious, people hate to admit that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE that A certain man will go to Hell cannot be separated from His PREDESTINATION...
See this..
God peeped into Bryan's future and he saw that Bryan will go to hell, what/who is the agent responsible for Bryan ending up in hell? Is it Bryan or is it God?
Your answer will help me to show you that it is impossible to disconnect God's foreknowledge from predestination.

Yes, I believe in freewill!

The world is not a stage. The Foreknowledge of God is at work.

Do you think it is fair if God sends a foetus to hell because God said that He knows (Foreknowledge) that the foetus will grow up to be a murderer and a serial rapist?
Even if Gods Foreknowledge was perfectly correct, there is no justice in punishing a man for a crime he hasn't commited.

Who is responsible for the "going to hell"? ... The 92% unconscious foetus or God? If you believe it's the foetus, do well to explain to me how an almost unconscious foetus chose hell for itself.

The chosen ones do not get chosen at random. They get chosen by the reason of what choices they made in their lifetime. God simply had a privilege of knowing this before He made the world.

Rom 8:29-30:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that the Son {Lit. that he} might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Just like the wicked cannot be justly punished until he commits the crime so also, the righteous cannot receive a reward for right choices untill he makes them

Comments reserved here.

Let me ask you some thought provoking question. (Of course, you don't need to answer the questions for they are subject to debate amongst the scientific community)
Is there a scientific speculation for the existence of a parallel universe?
Is time rigidly scientifically linear or a loop?
Can time machine/travel exist?

My answer:
1. Hmmmm
2. Time is not linear neither is it a loop, the linearity and loops plausibility is only applicable in theory and papers. In reality, time is just a point.
3. Never! You can't go back to the past (it's lost already) and you can't go to the future (contrary to popular belief, "future" doesn't exist). Do you know why? Time, in reality is just a point, it's called "THE PRESENT/ NOW".

Blabbermouth:
Forthtell - to CAUSE the future
Foretell- to KNOW (by divine insight) what will happen in the future.
I've gone through your post again... Before I deduce, please tell me
1. What's freewill to you?
2. Who ordains the man's future God or Man?
3. If your answer to qst.2 is "Man", then can God know what a man will ordain before he ordains it?
4. If your answer to qst.3 is Yes, Do explain how freewill is INDEPENDENT of foreknowledge.

What say ye, sir MuttleyLaff?
Perhaps I might not even have a complete grasp of your kind of freewill.

MuttleyLaff:
Why are you saying God doesnt know the final answer when He already said He knows the future, that He knows the end of a matter from the before the beginning of it, hmm?

Actually, i'm cool with your answer to the question. However, it's evident that everyone has different stance concerning the matter.
JW believe in God using selective foreknowledge
YOU believe in God using Absolute Foreknowledge
JesusJnr and Haddeylium believe in God using Man's freewill (independent variable) to construct His foreknowledge of the future (which is a dependent variable)...
My questions to JJ was to make sure I understand him completely.
If I'm to settle with your stance, however we try to shadowbox and sugarcoat things, we will have to remove free will completely.

haddeylium:
Please, go through it again and slowly this time sir.
And how do you define forthtell and foretell?

Forthtell - to CAUSE the future
Foretell- to KNOW (by divine insight) what will happen in the future.
I've gone through your post again... Before I deduce, please tell me
1. What's freewill to you?
2. Who ordains the man's future God or Man?
3. If your answer to qst.2 is "Man", then can God know what a man will ordain before he ordains it?
4. If your answer to qst.3 is Yes, Do explain how freewill is INDEPENDENT of foreknowledge.

Everyone believe in the existence of FUTURE, yet I've never met anyone born of a woman that lives his life as if A FUTURE ALREADY EXIST BEFORE IT IS CREATED.

MuttleyLaff:
Yes, you are the architect. You are the decider. You build your character. You develop your character. You reveal what you're made up of, you show the world what you are capable of et cetera

Alright.

Don't bother yourself about God's foreknowledge, but rather bother yourself, on how you increasingly and from day to day, can become more and more, in the likeness and image of God[/size]

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Sadly, this is 100% dependent on what God has foreknown. I can't increase if He has foreknown that I will decrease, I can't become more and more in the likeness of his image if he has foreknown that I will never be like him.
I won't use seatbelt anymore as I will only die if He has foreknown of my death. Whenever I feel sick I won't take my medications, (not because I am full of faith) but because I know that my survival is dependent on His foreknowledge. I will resign from work as it has been stressful and will only play bet9ja whenever I feel like, my success is dependent on what God has foreknown and not my individual endeavor.
This is what Happens with the stance that God has already watched my live match even before he created me and that's what Haddeylium is trying to point out.
However, I believe your stance is somehow consistent with the scriptures so I am cool with your answer.

jesusjnr2020:
Freewill is what everything hinges on. The outcome of man's freewill is what determines and predestinates the future. And the freewill was deliberately given to man by God because He didn't want a fixed outcome but a multiple one and He wanted the outcome to be determined by man.

So God knew it could pan out either way, and He's prepared for whatever comes out of man's freewill.

From this, I believe you are saying that the future is like a dice (multiple possible outcomes) and man's freewill is what determines the result. You said "God knew it could pan out either way and he's prepared for whatever comes....." , that would mean God knows every possible outcome but he doesn't know the final outcome - If this is not what you mean then there is no room for freewill whatever.

Therefore the answer to your question is that God is omniscient and He knows the future and everything else as far as the world was concerned, but He didn't fix it, man did! By the choices he made.

It's been quite a while bro. I do hope you're doing great.

Thanks and God bless.

In this section, I believe you are claiming now that God knows the exact outcome and not just the multiple possible outcomes- this is what being omniscient ( and knowing the future) means - If so, then again there is no room for freewill.

Everyone (except MuttleyLaff though) is trying to stitch God's omniscience along with man's freewill, if that omniscience involves the future, then freewill is just a fantasy.
It's been a while... I've been good.

shadeyinka:
If God can foreknow ( past, present and future) how is this different omniscience?
If God created time, is He still subject to it?
Foreknowledge of beings with freewill cannot be less than absolute knowledge. What do you think?

Now, you are claiming (along with supporting scriptures) that God knows the future absolutely. Knowing the future is not really the big issue, the inevitable question is if God knows the future , who wrote/ordained the future ?
2. Do you believe in the concept of freewill?

The scripture says the names of the chosen ones have been written before the foundation of the world... Doesn't that mean that the whole world is just a stage?

DappaD:
So the question you're asking isn't out of the ordinary because an article explaining this was even considered in one of our meetings—I think some years back or so

You guys did well. However we both know the truth is yet complete as there are still many loopholes. All in all though, you guys tried.

Maximus69:
Exactly!

Discussion so far: You claimed God does not know If I will repent or not.
Here is my last question;
The scripture says "their names have been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world"... Whose names are those?

Maximus69:
You are the one dancing round the answer!

According to the Bible, your future is DEATH {Romans 3:23} that's what Adam your ancestors transferred to you as your inheritance {Romans 5:12}

So God knows the future of his own works but you are irrelevant to him, you become relevant the moment you begin showing interest in his works {Zephaniah 2:2-3} that's why the word repent keep ringing throughout the New Testament!

Just now, I've caught the ESSENCE of your replies. From your view, God sees the future collectively but he KNOWS NOT if I will repent or if I will not repent, He left this part omitted for me to fill in the blank. If I repent, I feature in the ETernal-Life Bundle. If I don't, I find my self totally Non-Existent forever.

Word for Word, is that what you are trying to say?

MuttleyLaff:
It will be a violation of creativity rights and/or abuse of artistic rights to, because of whether one is bad or good, such should be denied the right of expression and freedom of freely without inhibitions to express themselves.

Now I understand you completely (97%) and i know where you stand on the matter. Also, I noticed your unwillingness to be blunt and straight with your answer, that's understood (everyone that has penned answers down also did the same). Still, I've caught the essence of your replies, thanks.

DappaD:
Somehow you still want to merge the two together just so you can achieve your aim.
That's fine anyway.

This is one of those many questions that believers try not to seek an answer to.
This is one of those many questions that will never be raised by anybody in any bible study. Do you know why you can't? Many will begin to see you as a Devil and a faith shaker.
I have the purest intent with the question i asked.

DappaD:
Leave mathematics out of this first.

When humans rebel against him and make his heart SAD because of that, are you implying he ordains such to happen? Things that would sadden his heart?
Because if we're to ever understand something, we're going to have to look at things from God's point of view.

In the purest state of your heart, you are trying to tell me God has no business with the future and He technically doesn't know where we will choose. Sadly, when you type, you are subconsciously wanting me to also believe that God knows or at least, he can know if he chose to.
We both know that what I said above is true.

MuttleyLaff:
Sir Blabbermouth, you are the script writer, you're the actor playing different role and/or characters. You started with a blank script without any character(s) to start with, but as you got on stage and began acting, different characters of you began created and developing, and the lines uttered by your characters got written down on the previously blank script book. The script will be filled until your breath returns back to its Owner and the script book will be closed, only to be re-opened on Judgment Day, for you to be called to answer to all your deed, actions, thoughts you did while acting on that world stage.

I am the script-writer? Cool! That means I am Foreordaining my own future. Unfortunately, when I realized that God already knows what I will write even before I was born, we are back to square one again as WHAT I WILL WRITE is totally dependent on WHAT GOD HAS FOREKNOWN ... If God already foreknew that I will choose hell, then this poor boy is helpless because he cannot be right while God is wrong. You see, the puzzle is yet to be solved.

haddeylium:
But for the sake ...The question we should asked is -How does God foreknow human course?
The Bible does not leave us in dark and it's clearly stated in the Bible.
God has the ability to know how the heart of humans as recorded as recorded
"every inclination of the thoughts of [mankind’s] heart was only bad all the time.” (2Ch 6:30;Ge 6:5)
Another is,God foreknowledge was not without prior basis or acts[b][/b]
An example are the Israelites, God gave the nation of Israel the opportunity to become “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” by keeping his covenant(Ex 19:6)
But, God foretold 40yrs later that they would break his covenant and forsake him(Deu 31:16,17,18)
Why?
for I already know the inclination that they have developed+ even before I bring them into the land about which I have sworn.”(Deu 31:21)
compare with (Ps 81:10-13)
So, the results of manifest inclination leads to God foreknowing without being responsible for it
You can foreknow that a structure will prolly collapse or deteriorate if it was construted with substandard materials and an unprofessional..
Would you be responsible if it really did?

You can foreknow that your child might fail algebra if he doesn't show interest in it at all

This is another twist entirely. You are painting God as a sage with a very rare telepathic and forecasting ability to know what will happen given a few conditions or fact. ... Don't you think this road will be rough to tread?
Also, please do check the difference between foretelling and forthtelling. Some of your examples are from forthtelling and not foretelling.

Maximus69:
Of course he knows the future of his creative works because nothing can stop him from actualizing what he desires, but as for your own future, you're the determinant not the holy one of Israel, he will never write it for you, the pen is in your own hands!

I want you to hit the nail yourself.
Maximus 1: God knows the future
Maximus 2: God does not construct the future of individual humans.. Each one write it with his/her hands
From 2: He does not know the future of Each individual
Maximus 3: Of course, he knows the future of his creative works.
Where do you stand sir? With you, I'm not concerned if I write it or if God writes it, Does He KNOW my future?! Does He KNOW where I will spend my eternity?!
Be precise and consistent as I'm a bit confused with the way you are oscillating and not giving me the main answer I want.

DappaD:
God does not foreordain what the future of individual mortal men will be, but he can foreknow the future of individual humans if he chooses to. But note that he NEVER ordained what their future will be like. Every human has the liberty to create/manage his future dealings.

This is nothing but shadowboxing. Do you know the implication of what you are claiming?
If God Foreknows that a certain Jw will come and preach to me next year and he foreknows that I will chase him with a big broomstick. I mean this is supposed to happen next year o! Peradventure the JW comes to my house, do you think I will be able to welcome him and listen to him? No!
Do you know why?
God already foreknew that I chased him. So even if I enjoyed his preaching, I have no choice than to chase him because God cannot lie, He cannot make a mistake in his foreknowledge! ... In a mathematical language, it implies that Foreordaining is a function of Foreknowledge ; in a simpler term, the way I will ordain my future is dependent on what God has already foreknown about my future (makes no difference if He has pryed or not).. That's a very bitter truth. Now you see, we are back to square one.

DappaD:
You need to ask yourself whether God is responsible for the next action you take.

Someone murders another human out of shear wickedness and your best resort is to blame it on God? Like I said, if he wants to know the future of every human, he can but doesn't since man's heart is inclined to do bad.
There's a difference between FOREORDINATION and FOREKNOWLEDGE. Look both of them up.
God does not foreordain what the future of individual mortal men will be, but he can foreknow if he chooses to.

Sadly, this is still cutting corners and you haven't answered the big question.
Foreknowledge - God knows I will do it
Foreordained- God made me do it
C'mon, God knows I will do something next year and I myself don't even know about it.
When I myself don't know about it, how in the world did I ordain it?
Let's not cut corners please.

Truvel:
Argueing With An Atheist Is A Waste Of Time.

I'm not an atheist, I'm a Christian.

DappaD:
No script has been written specially for anybody sir. Jehovah's promises affect mankind in general.
You're getting that premise, probably from what you've been taught but definitely not the Bible.

No! I got that from your response. You yourself said "God doesn't want to pry into our future..." So I asked you and I am still asking you;
Who ordained that "stuff" that God doesn't want to pry into?

MuttleyLaff:
[size=12pt]Using the scenario, and filling in the blanks, as in meaning, God watched watched the behind closed full time football match between Man United and Arsenal football club and knew the final score. Eleven guys in your neighbourhood were in the Arsenal team while eleven other guys from adjacent neighbourhood were in the Man United team played the full 90 minutes of the game with an end score or final result of 2-0 in favour of Arsenal. Now, God that watched the football game live before you knows the outcome of the game, but if He were to tell you the results He has foreknown before you get to watch a recorded play of the match, are you going to say, God predetermined/predestined the outcome of match, when knowing fully well that the outcome was as a result of the performances of and efforts put in by the 25 men on the pitch, including the two lines-persons and referee
You're on a world stage, carrying out various acts.

I love your illustration and I am almost close to understanding you completely.
Unfortunately, the one God watched was NOT a live match! As it wasn't my effort nor was it yours (since we were yet to exist then)...
So, the question is still valid;
Who directed the match?
Ps: Do not omit the fact that we were yet to exist.

DappaD:
Very well then.
......
If he wants to pry into our personal dealings and our future, that would sadden his heart because the hearts of mortal men is filled with wicked things (Genesis 6:5-6, Psalm 78:40,41). So Jehovah decides to refrain from knowing such things so as to remain the happy God! – 1Timothy 1:11

An interesting read, I will save your reply...
@the bolded, like I said to someone on this thread, turning to the idea of "selective foreknowledge" does not solve the puzzle.
You said "God does not want to pry into our future"....
That paints a scenario where our future (perhaps in the form of a book or movie) has already been written. To remain happy, God chose not to read the book or see this " future movie"...
If this is so, then we should not be shy from answering this;
Who wrote that book/directed that movie or say, who wrote that "our future" that God does not want to pry into?

MuttleyLaff:
Did you read the Man United and Arsenal illustration above, and understood it, because you've now switched from "predetermined" to "predestination", hmm?

In this case, I see them to be the same.

MuttleyLaff:
Do you think God isn't patient? That God isn't long-suffering in silence? How you really doubt the love of God, hmm? Do you see God as an ogre, sadist or psychopath hmm?

Are you aware of what God Himself did so that you would be reconciled, redeemed and saved back to Him., hmm?. Do you know what God has made available to assist you to every moment become a better person huh? Please dont let ignorance, bereft of good, correct and full knowledge get the better of you

I know God is longsuffering. Yeah I have no contradiction with God being patient... It's the last part of the verse that is the koko; "God does not want me to perish" ... How will the same God that doesn't want me to perish also be the one to predestine/predetermine hell fire for me?

MuttleyLaff:
I will refer you again to go review the above earlier Man United and Arsenal football match illustration

I've given a suitable response to your football match illustration.

haddeylium:
I feel attracted to the question...
I don't know if I'm allowed to jump on it?
I'm doing that anyway....loll

Answers to God know knowing the future is broad but with the OP replies to others that commented....I think he's interested in if God foreknowedd or predestined humans acts..

Since God granted us freewill, it wouldn't have been genuine if he knows the outcome of our life course

Someone quoted (Is-46:10)- Truly God has the power to foreknow an even and it course as with regards to the prophesy he gave. But, the Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreknowing things

Nice. But you see, the idea of selective foreknowledge does not solve the puzzle. That I choose not to know if my son is doing well at school or not, does not mean he isn't actually failing his Algebra.
Even if He decides to not know where I will end up, the question is still valid; Does God know where I will spend my eternity?
If he knows, who predestined where I will end up?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You might want to say that God does not know where I will end up because he chose not to know ... That would automatically paint a scenario where there is kind of like a book in God's library that contains where everyone will end up. So, God is technically restraining himself from opening the book to see where Blabbermouth and haddeylium will end up. Even if it were so, this begs the question;
Who wrote that book/predetermined my eternal destination?

MuttleyLaff:
[size=12pt]Sir Blabbermouth, if before you I had watched a behind closed full time football match between Man United and Arsenal football club and knew the final score, but you, say, two hours later, came to watch a recorded version of the same match. Would you say that since I had earlier watched the match live, that, as far as you are concerned, then the score line or the final result of the game was predetermined, hmm?

Using this scenario, the final result of the game has already been determined by the match itself!
In my case, I haven't played any match (I'm yet to exist) , so if there was a casette/ movie of me pre-doing all the things I'm doing right now and all the things I'm yet to do, the big question is; Who directed the Movie?
Is it God or the yet-to-exist ME?

MuttleyLaff:
Smh. Before you were conceived and even born from your mother womb, God had already before you being on the board, and experienced every move on the board until the end that you've made. He has seen all your blunders, your silly moves, your suicidal move, your check mate yourself moves, but still allows you to comes into existence because creativity should never be aborted, killed off, truncated, stifled et cetera. You are part of the Godhead's creative energy, and no matter where you are going to end up, you have creative rights to exist so to express yourself, equipped with freewill. I won't go further on than here, bar you lead to shed more light

From your response, I deduced that you believe that it is God himself that predestined where I will end up and he allowed me to exist for a while in order to showcase his creativity, that's a very bitter sweet. Let's see this together, shall we?
2Peter 3:9 - "... But is (The Lord is) patient towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
How can this Loving God that doesn't want me to perish also decided to predestine innocent Blabbermouth for hell? Paul was clear, God does not want me to perish!!!
Fortunately and unfortunately, it's either you are wrong or Apostle Paul is wrong.
Perhaps I was a bit forward. Will you do justice to bridge the notion that God predestined hell for me with the fact that God doesn't want me to perish?

MuttleyLaff:
[size=12pt]Did you understand what "know the end from the beginning" means and implies, hmm?

What is bugging you?

I want to know the answer to this question; Does God know if I will end up in Heaven or Hell?
If he knows, I want to know who predetermined "Hell" or " Heaven" for me.
Sir MuttleyLaff, Who predetermined that I will end up in "hell"?

DappaD:
Okay. Understood now.

I'll posit my question first, before answering yours.

All I need is a Yes/No answer before I proceed.

Sir, just take it as I don't know much.
Please do justice to my question.

Maximus69:
Your future is in your own hands not God's hands because his own plan is certain {Isaiah 55:10-11} it's your right now to predict your own future!

From your standpoint, God does not know the future (Or at the very least, My future!)
Sir Maximus69, is the above your conclusion?

Maximus69:
He will never decide that, he has informed us on his own part, it's left for each of us to play our own part! Galatians 6:5

That means you believe God does not know where I will end up.