₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
www.nairaland.com/attachments/10807283_18541710804013107641858600013downloadfilegifa8deb5acaaaab3a20ba0076a4ea6a9dcgifea83923dca74e4f30dc69c45bdcd2ba2gif9961501f4eeed8be62bd9788a9e62f62_gifcba675745abfa31dcab4188dcbb8cf2b
I wanted to be smart
and be like you when growing up, lol

lol, learning from you baba

MuttleyLaff:
I am beginning to understand your style in writing and/how you construct your comments, the way you sometimes do. Take for example, someone not having knowledge of how you sometimes type, would be forgiven to think that you really believe its a story, lol

lol you are smart.

sonmvayina:
So when Harry Potter said Professor Albus Dambuldore was the greatest sorcerer in the word, does he mean he is right?.. The unknown author of the gospels wrote it in their story does not mean it is true.. Or real.. It is just a story.

of course it's a story, and a powerful story than that of Horus or Harry Potter. Obviously it has had more influence whether we like it or not.

musicwriter:
All the bible quotes were actually copied from older sayings by older saviours. Do unto others as you'll have them do unto you, reap what you sow, love thy God your God, thou shall not kill, thou shall not lie, come to me all ye that labour, I am the way the truth and life, No one cometh to the father exept by me, etc, were copied from older saviors into the bible and Koran.

The saying "no one cometh to the father except by me" was first claimed by Horus here in Africa and it was documented 5,000 years before anybody heard of Jesus. This's why the older books have to be outlawed by Rome once the bible was written.

Ask yourself; why would the Roman empire outlaw older books after writing the bible?

Can you back up your claim sometimes, l challenge you to give me the similarities between Horus and Jesus from reputable sources. l am waiting. All those so called similarities are exaggerated. l have debunked these things several times here and it's tiring.

Also if you know anything about 1st century Judaism, then you would see how foolish it is for someone to invent a crucified messaiah, it just doesn't sell and it was a problem to the growth of early christianity. This is part of why scholars are convinced jesus existed and was truly crucified. This is why paul said the preaching of the cross may be foolishness to the gentiles and a stumbling block to the jews, but to us it is the power and wisdom of God.

Give me similarities between jesus and Buddha, Horus, and Mithrias.

Again l repeat: These claims are not accepted
generally from reputable historians on classical antiquity and they are outdated and false.

Also give me evidence of this quote from Horus, l'm waiting. Atheists accuse religious people of being dogmatic and not used to critical thinking, but these kind of arguments are silly and atheists like you are not willing to look at the evidence from the consensus of Historians who study it.

When you quote historical consensus and scholarly works on these matters, then l would take your claim more seriously.

sonmvayina:
That is what somebody who wasn't there said he said... And you just believed.. Define mumu.. Pleass

That's the point, why didn't the followers of Horus ascribe that to Horus? For this man to have such an influence on his followers that Horus didn't have, tells me he must be greater than Horus in a way, it's just common sense.

MuttleyLaff:
Not at all a good and/or valid reason to use "seem." Are you aware the damage that might be done to others reading, who now thinking to themselves, "ah, ho-oh. Seem? So this Jesus guy is an opportunist to the last, believing He was that promised one, when He really isnt" hmm?

What and what makes you believe Jesus knew who He was?

Hmm, I love how you said "something Jesus talked about throughout His ministry". Anyway, you might be pleased that the kingdom of God is here, because you believe there's equity, there's goodness, there's the right to non-discrimination on the grounds of sex/gender, there's righteousness, there's power, there's eternal life, there's hope, there's salvation, there's redemption, there's grace, there's forgiveness, there's agape love, there's etcetera in the kingdom of God, lol.

I wont worry myself over the comment, if I were you, because if not immediately now, sooner or later you'll get it.

Well for the first time you have succeeded in losing me completely. l don't understand your reply this time, and you are not making it easy for my brain, lol. Anyway in the end l believe deeds are more important than what we believe or don't believe.

musicwriter:
Thousands of years bedore anybody heard of Jesus, there were already several hero characters who were born by a virgin, did miracles, walked on water, were killed by enemies, were crucified, died and resurrected. More than 10 "saviors" already did all that before your Jesus, namely; Horus, Dionysus, Mithra, Buddha, Quelzaoatl, Zoroaster, etc.

So, the Jesus story wasn't the first of such story. The story is older than Jesus. If you're looking for a Messiah, an African called Horus already saved you. Jesus is just a European plagiarism given to conquered people like you.

ok if Horus did it, then he was also reflecting that idea. But Horus is not jesus, the so called similarities between Horus and jesus are exaggerated.
Whatever the case, Horus never said:

Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and l would give you rest.

musicwriter:
If so, then you're contradicting yourself.

No messiah was promised to anybody. Its a legend.

No messiah came before. Its a white supeemacist story.

No Messiah is coming.

No l am not contradicting myself

The world has always needed a hero, someone, a leader, who can uplift their spirits and display power over sufferings, diseases, sicknesses, and perhaps even death. Humans have always been in search of the ideal world of happiness (the kingdom of God).

Jesus is the Messaiah and he has bought for himself a kingdom by the sacrifice of himself.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, еxcept a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

John 12v24

Jesus has given us his spirit, so that as his body( the new Israel) we would show what the kingdom of God should be like.

MuttleyLaff:
ERR ERRRR! Wrong. Smh.
Daejoyoung, I am sure you know what the meaning of Jesus is and also equally know what the meaning of Christ is, lol.

In addition, for someone to say: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." doesnt sound like who isnt sure of who He is, lol

At least Peter said about Jesus: "You are, the Christ, the Son of the living God."



Lol, if only more christians properly brush up their bibles and truthfully read it, there'd be less christians.

You need to believe in more than those two, lol

l used "seem", because l am replying someone who doesn't even believe that jesus existed in the first place. So l used "seem" so as not to bring back that debate with him. l believe jesus knew who he was.

l am confused, why should l believe in something more than the kingdom of God ( something jesus talked about throughout his ministry)?

Also what do you mean by "lf many Christians read their bible, there would be less Christians today" ? you lost me here.

musicwriter:
I very well get your point but you should explain it that way to fellow Africans because our people are slaving away in churches, taking everything literally, thinking they'll go to hell, and paying money to pastors. Anybody reading your previous posts here would think you're a pastor defending Jesus, when, in fact, you may not even be a Christian.

l am a Christian, just not your regular Christian.l believe in jesus Christ and his declaration of the kingdom of God.

musicwriter:
No, the promised Messiah wasn't Jesus.

The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah promised their ancestor, Abraham. According to them, he wasn't Jesus.

By the way, no God would create people on earth and choose a particular tribe as his people. This alone proves its a white supremacist story!!.

Yes, you're right. Nothing about the bible's promise of a Messiah is real. The promise is a legend, and every culture have their legends. Again, no Messiah came before and no Messiah is coming in future. You should make it clear to fellow Africans and stop telling us it was a real event.

Nothing about Jesus is true even the "the" and "he" in the old and New testament are all stories.

You still don't get it, lol. The stories have changed the world. It doesn't matter whether it was true or not. This is an example of how we somehow influence things whether for good or bad when we act on faith. For example children are usually very positive about life, believing in things like SantaClause and Superman. When they start growing and using logic, their faith reduces. imagine if they were able to use both logic and faith convincingly, who knows what we humans would be capable of, but the problem with us is that we always see things in black and white, no middle ground or inter relation of ideas.

Abid2020:
if I you wanna know truly there's God, Go and obtain or download translated Al Qur'an, then open Qur'an chapter 2 Al-Baqarah if you can't take your time to read that because it's very long, open chapter 67 Al-mulk. I'm very sure if you tried this you will believe there is God

ok let's look at Surah 2, the first 7 verses at least.

Quran عe

chapter 2 sura

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. Alif, Lam, Meem.

2. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

3. Those who believe in the unseen, and perform the prayers, and give from what We have provided for them.

4. And those who believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.

5. These are upon guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.

6. As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe.

7. God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. They will have a severe torment.

lt doesn't seem to say much so far, it just asserts that those who believe in quran are successful, and for those who don't believe, God has placed a seal in their hearts and they would have a severe torment.
So the question is: Why did Allah place a seal in the heart of this people and yet still wants to punish them in severe torment?

musicwriter:
If you know that, then you'll know that there was no Messiah promised to anybody. No Messiah came before and no Messiah is coming.

Brother, Jesus is just a story in a book.

The jews were smart enough to write their story in that way, that they are the chosen race through whom the world would be blessed, they believed this for centuries (whether it was true or not) and they lived their lives according to this belief in the so called promise God made to their forefather Abraham, and things have played out as though it were true. That's my point.
At this stage, it is irrelevant if it happened or not, jews believed it and jesus seem to believe he was that promised one or at least his followers believed this about him, and the world has changed tremendously for both good and bad due to this story.

musicwriter:
Paul never saw Jesus and nobody in history said he did. Everything by so called Paul was what he made up. He said so himself!!. Paul himself said that [b]''verily I tell you, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not according to man. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from God.

l never said Paul saw jesus, so l don't know what you are on about, l said in Galatians he is arguing a case to the Galatians and he speaks about Peter and James whom he doesn't even introduce to the Galatians. So paul met the closest friend of jesus as well as his brother. That's my argument.

musicwriter:
There was no God.

There was no Abraham.

There was no promise to anybody.

The bible stories are myths meant to teach something. Example; the Abraham story is meant to teach faith, perseverance, steadfastness.

Its same thing with the Job and Satan myth.

God, Abraham, Job, Satan are just characters in a book but they are not literal. There was no Satan talking to Job. Once you understand that, you're good to go.

And where did l deny all these couldn't possibly be so? Apart from the there was no God idea( which l don't agree with), l agree that the biblical stories are Jewish stories trying to illustrate ideas and concepts.

musicwriter:
Because all the crucified Jews died and were buried. There was nothing exceptional about any of them to write about.

Indeed, if any Jew was born by a virgin, walked on water, died and resurrected, Greek and Roman historians would have reported it live.

Many historians who believe that jesus existed do not believe this things about him too.
But even at that, l don't understand your logic here. The gospels do not tell us that anyone knew of the virgin birth except for Mary and Joseph. Also in the gospel of Mark, the people of jesus hometown seem to believe Joseph was his father, so why should the Romans who were concerned with other things know about this?
Also jesus walking on water was only supposedly witnessed by the 12 disciples, if they said it to others, the others won't believe it.

Also josephus says jesus was a doer of startling deeds, this was not significantly a praiseworthy term for jesus when used by the jews at that time, they meant to say that he was a magician.
The talmudic Jewish writings in the 2nd century ( written by enemies of christianity) also like josephus seem to suggest that jesus was a magician who led the people astray.

musicwriter:
If you're smart enough to know that, then you should be smart enough to know that Jesus is an invention by Rome.

If they (Romans) themselves didnt have any live record WHATSOEVER of a living Jesus; why should you an African believe in same Jesus that they (Romans) told you about? Just think about that.

For God's sake, Romans didn't go about writing about every single individual in Rome, we don't even have contemporary writings about Tiberius Ceasar talking about him when he was alive. So why do you expect the Romans to care about jesus who was just one of many crucified jews?

Finallydead:
Hi Daejoyoung

O. I see. Just highlight the bits you want and insert them in the middle of the

Finallydead l like the way you interprete the old testament, it is similar to my way in that l don't take it literally.
But in your interpretation of the burning of the daughters of the priests, you say that she may be saved and go to heaven because of the blood atonement.
lf you were a priest then and your daughter whom you love did that, would you burn her alive to save her soul?
l understand your view on the old testament, it is all about symbols and l read it like that, but it is contrary to the teachings of jesus in my view to take it literally. The God whom jesus was teaching us about can be seen in the old testament, but we must interpret that old testament only through the teachings of jesus together with our brain and conscience.

Finallydead:
Sorry, please read my edited post. Theres more.

ok your theory on the death of jesus is similar to mine, it is appeasement to God in a sense. But this is how the common view of substitutionary atonement is usually presented, something like this:

The only way God can forgive sins is through blood because without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, and because God is both just and loving, in order to satisfy his justice he sent jesus to be the sacrifice to take the death we were supposed to die, because jesus died in our place and suffered the wrath of God we would no longer go to Hellfire.

Now what l quoted above is the entire gospel for many Christians. When they say believe in jesus, this is exactly what they mean.

Now this gospel is true and very scriptural but without context it becomes confusing and problematic.

1) "The only way God can forgive sins is through blood"

This is true except that most evangelicals today who preach this, misunderstand what sin is in this context nor do they even understand the various aspects of sin. Sin in the bible does not only mean breaking of God's commandment, it also represents a fallen state, our mortality that makes us live by the flesh alone and makes us die. For this particular sin, we can't escape it completely in this world, but we have the Holyspirit in us to help us to a great extent until the resurrection age comes.
But most fundamentally there is a third type of sin, and that is what we call unintentional sins, which is mostly a collective sin both from your community as a whole and sometimes from others and even yourself. This is the sin a lamb was offered for, and this is the sin jesus took away by his blood as in lsaiah 53. The phrase "And he shall save his people from their sin", is referring to this sin of the nation that makes them suffer slavery, sicknesses, and other effects of sin. Collective sin could come from yourself but most times you suffer due to the sins of your community as a whole.

But when people preach to unbelievers most times without this understanding it becomes a problem. So in summary:

1) Jesus was affected by our collective sin due to our mortality. He didn't die due to any fault of his own but due to the collective sins of humans.
2) ln this sense, the lamb that was slain for unintentional sins both collectively and individually became known as a shadow or prototype prophesying jesus.
3) We are to bother more about our day to day sins( the first category of sin and most common one) which we are slaves of too, and for that, all we have to do is to repent and have no hatred in our hearts for our brother, and that is all it takes for God to forgive that sin.

This is my understanding, and thanks for the civil discussion so far.

musicwriter:
The job of the historians were not to write about Jews, rather they were writing anything of interest. Below are historians that lived at the same time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

Livy
Born: 59 BC
Died: 17 AD
Profession: Historian
Full name: Titus Livius
Nationality: Roman

Philo
Born: 25 BC (Egypt)
Died: 50 AD
Full name: Philo Judaeus
Profession: Philosopher & author
Nephews: Tiberius Julius Alexander, Marcus Julius Alexander
Siblings: Alexander the Alabarch
Nationality: Egypt

Seneca
Born 4 BC
Died AD 65 (aged 68–69)
Profession: philosopher & poet
Nationality: Roman

Elder Pliny
Born: 23 AD
Died: August 25th, 79 AD
Full name: Gaius Plinius Secundus
Nationality: Roman
Children: Pliny the Younger

There are many of such great philosophers, poets, historians, leaders; being cited in history as living during the same time Jesus was supposed to have lived. Yet, none of them mentioned Jesus or a Messiah throughout their writings. These authors were like the newspapers of their day and they recorded every important event, but none of them said anything about Jesus.

How can a story of someone resurrecting from the dead not be of interest to anybody who lived in Jesus time? Tell me why not one historian of his time recorded his virgin birth, walking on water, resurrection, ascension into heaven. What could have been more important than a story of a man walking on water?

Apart from philo, the rest of these guys were Romans, so you expect Roman philosophers like Seneca to write about jesus? are you fvcking kidding me?

musicwriter:
Yes, myth is not falsehood but they're not meant to be taken literally. Its a story teaching something else but which you have taken literally.

There was no God talking to any man called Abraham.

And who told you that l have taken it literally ehn?

musicwriter:
The promise to Abraham is a myth!. Please grow up!.

There was no Abraham, there was no promise to him, there was no God promising Abraham anything.

Its a story!!

What's this one saying? and since when did myth equate to falsehood?

Finallydead:
O. I see. Just highlight the bits you want and insert them in the middle of the like the Bleep, by clicking the quote button after highlighting any desired text.


O no. Paul's not using figures of speech. We are actually supposed to experience this deadness to sin and life in Christ by following Christ's example, of course, granted only if we already have the earnest/foretaste that faith brought to us. So the unbeliever cannot have that hope by following Christs example, it will only be dead works for such.

Thanks again for the tutorial on how to quote, l already experimented with it, and l think l've figured it out as well.
Well when paul says we died with christ, do you take that literally? ls he not trying to say we should die to our past ways? our past lives which were the works of the flesh?
Well the problem here is what you call unbelief, why don't we focus on the fruits of the spirit and reject the fruits of the flesh? Rather than trying to believe the right thing specifically which has caused more divisions in the body of christ today, why don't we heed the words of jesus when he said:

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled.

ls God not able to give the Holyspirit to them who ask, o ye of little faith.

lt is the Holyspirit that brings righteousness and the fruits of the spirit is righteousness. The only way we know we have the Holyspirit is when we exhibit the fruits of the spirit. What the world needs is the spirit of christ to do the will of God in my opinion. l am saved by the blood of jesus, but this is not specifically because God needs blood, it is because jesus died innocently in our place but yet made intercession for the righteous, so that he still speaks to God even after death.

Instinged:
i undrstnd u brother..i have thought of all dis especially bw my 25th to 29th years..am 32 now and i see God differently.
Personal encounter with God is the major.
Any prophet u see has his or her own encounter wt God, But Jesus on the other hand is the Author and Finisher of our FAITH.
Just try to live like Jesus for somtimes and see what happens.
BE HUMBLE, BE PATIENT, BE HAPPY, BE BOLD, BE JUST, BE PURE, BELIEVE
READ THE BIBLE WELL..I MEAN THE PART THAT GIVES ACCOUNT ABOUT JESUS.

Exactly

MedicH:
John 3:16 said if you fail to believe that Jesus died on the cross you will go to hell fire. Atheism is simply the belief that there is no God. this one u dont need the holy spirit to explain

John 3v16.. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The remaining verses go on to tell you that people refused to believe in his son because they loved to remain darkness.

This nonbelief here has nothing to do with their questioning and critical thinking, it is about their love for darkness.

MedicH:
what does it mean to become an atheist? an examiner of the things of God right?

pls bye i no get strength

lf you examine your bible deeply, how can you say john 3v16 teaches you Hellfire? Hellfire from the parables of jesus is more of a state than a place, you experience weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see that you are outside God's kingdom on earth( where there is power over death, sickness, and sufferings). You experience hellfire when you wilfully remain in sin and when you deny or blaspheme the Holyspirit of God that can dwell in you. The Holyspirit within is the power of the kingdom ( the age to come).
All of these have little or nothing to do with belief in doctrines or creeds, but more to do with an active faith that helps you live like you are already in the kingdom of God.

MedicH:
pls read John 3:16

How does john 3v16 support your case? and where in John 3v16 does it say you should not think and examine things of God?

MedicH:
what if you end up in hell fire... me i no fit reason ur atheism oo

Hell fire? so you are saying God puts people in Hellfire simply for thinking and not by their deeds?

Whatever deliverance you think you need, why not pray and fast on your own first, and ask God to lead you in the right path to solve your problems. There may be other solutions to your problem that God is willing to reveal to you and you alone, not to a pastor or prophet.

[quote author=Finallydead post=85336991]

I think Daejoyoung and ihedinobi3 would agree that the substitution on the cross was not exclusive of our part to follow the Lord's example he left in His earthly life(1Pet 2:21) and its an official contract every believer signs whether they keep to it or not. If they don't of course, there are well meted consequences like satanic torments(1Cor5) etc. In other words faith in Christ always includes corresponding actions on the believers part of taking Christ's place as He took ours. And this substitution was not about appeasing God's wrath by mere pardon, while keeping us in sin nature but by making a pathway for dealing with sin nature in humanity, which is realized at the end of this path, hence appeasing God's wrath. If so, then you both have no disagreement on substitution.

ln what sense does it make a pathway in dealing with sin nature? l read all these as a figure of speech by paul to say that we are dead to sin and now alive with christ to live righteously. lt is thesame as saying we are born again.
You wrote that the death of jesus was not human sacrifice to appease God's wrath, unfortunately many Christians explain it that way. They believe God was angry with us and was looking for holy blood in order to forgive us our sins. And so jesus had no sin and took our place on the cross to appease God, l see why they interprete it this way, but it sends the wrong signals and idea if you don't painstakingly clarify, and then this takes away the focus of the message of the cross, if you know what l mean.

Finallydead:
I think Daejoyoung and ihedinobi3 would agree that the substitution on the cross was not exclusive of our part to follow the Lord's example he left in His earthly life(1Pet 2:21) and its an official contract every believer signs whether they keep to it or not. If they don't of course, there are well meted consequences like satanic torments(1Cor5) etc. In other words faith in Christ always includes corresponding actions on the believers part of taking Christ's place as He took ours. And this substitution was not about appeasing God's wrath by mere pardon, while keeping us in sin nature but by making a pathway for dealing with sin nature in humanity, which is realized at the end of this path, hence appeasing God's wrath. If so, then you both have no disagreement on substitution.
Daejoyoung here is a picture showing how you could quote people without typing ...You said.. Just highlight whatever you wish to and click the 'message' button just before the first smiley/emoji.
[img][/img]

I also think its dangerous for you to cherrypick what scriptures to believe and what not to. Jesus Christ of the old testament is the same with
Jesus Christ of the new. Its just that He had a less effective covenant in the old that many times veiled His truest revelation of Himself. If you have any issues understanding God's acts in the old testament, its safe to just see it as your inability to see His true intention. The old testament is all the early church had for validating doctrine and from Paul(2Tim3:15-17) and Peter( 2Pet1:19-21) you should never cherrypick old testament scripture but accept it all as authoritative, nevertheless requiring the Holy Spirit to give it perspective

.

First thank you for lessons on how to quote, still not just working out for me, l end up quoting the whole thing.
Your interpretation about God's revelation of himself in the old testament as not been perfect means that you agree with me and not lhedinobi3. The actions of God in the old testament are majorly that of a king( as agreed by lhedinobi3). Kings and Emperors of those days were brutal, this is why the Jews cannot accept jesus as the true messiah today, because to them, it is a poor copy of the old testament character. Tell me what l have to understand by these actions:

1) He commands the stoning of a man to death for gathering food on the sabbath.
2) He tells the Israelites to kill every young man from the canaanites as well as the women and take only virgin girls for themselves.
3)He commands the Israelites to kill not only amalekite men( for the crimes of their forefathers) but also women, infant, horses, etc.
4) On instructions for priests, he commands that their promiscuous daughters should be burnt alive.

When you begin to see God like you see ancient middle eastern warlords, then these actions are excusable. But when you read the old testament not as a literal story but rather the Jewish story which gives you prototypes of God( for instance the Angel of Yahweh in Exodus who probably also appeared to Abraham) then you read it differently, you don't necessarily reject it.

l said somewhere in answer to Richard, that l read proverbs all through as a child and it has helped me a lot, but that doesn't mean l can't criticize Moses for what he wrote about God. lf God gave us a brain and conscience, then of course he wants us to use it as a filter also. l know our conscience is subjective, but we must use it in combination with scripture and science in our search for truth and righteousness.

For more imformation you will want to get yourself a copy of the booklet titled 'The True Authorship of the New Testament' by Abelard Reuchlin[/quote][/quote]Abelard Reuchlin was an essayist not a scholar of historical works.