Daejoyoung's Posts
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Amujale:You Wrote....Christianity did not begin as a religion, but is actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. Assertions again without proof, Romans cannot create a religon that is so opposed to their gods and tells the world to worship a jew and the jewish god rather than Ceasar and Roman gods or even Hercules. lt makes no sense, this is why your claim does not hold water, try again. You Wrote...The story of Jesus Christ was invented as a system of mind control to subdue their poor citizens. No, it has been used as a system of mind control after Rome adopted it through Constantine in the 4th Century. Besides that, it has influenced our world so greatly in very positive ways as well, and l can give you a long list of that. You Wrote..Most of The Old Testaments was stolen from more older philosophies from around the world, whilst the New Testament is full of fakery and forgeries. Well this is partly true, but it doesn't mean jesus did not exist or that the entire bible was forged, that is where you are not willing to deal with scholarship and critical thinking on this. You Wrote. .Professor Bruno Bauer in his work of 1877 'Christ and the Caesars", stated that he had concluded that Romans authored the New Testament and that Flavian invented the Jesus character And he has been proven wrong today, we now know better due to archeological discoveries in the 20th century of some ancient writings, and so from the 1970's, mainstream scholars no longer say that jesus was a myth. This is outdated information you are touting. You Wrote..For example, the book of Mark was the first of the Gospels to have been written, and was done in a prototype form before it was later crafted into the form we are familiar with today. The earlier version was called " Ur Marcus" and is also known as 'Q' ( Quelle, German for the source) This is so wrong, l don't even know where to start. Anyone who knows anything about biblical scholarship knows that Mark and Q are different. Q is an hypothetical gospel from scholars that probably contained sayings of jesus used by both matthew and luke but not mark. So Q is not Mark and this is obviously wrong. You Wrote...The earliest version of Mark shows that this was written at about the time of Claudius Caesar, by the grandfather of Arrius Piso. That version was apparently only a bare sketch and most probably did not give a name to the 'messiah'. That appears to have been done later by the person who actually played 'Jesus' in the Gospels - Arrius Piso. Give me proof for this claim, no you can't, because you and your theorists ( who are not scholars on classical works) just made this up from your asses as usual. |
Amujale:This is nothing but conspiracy theory.l said give me names of scholars on writings of antiquity that say all these, and you've provided none. l can make up my own conspiracy theory on anything, it proves nothing. Give me proof of scholars and historians in this field from top universities across the world, who are arguing this. There are many scholars and historians of 1st century writings who are not Christians. So give me just one citation from them that support your claim. l mean experts of josephus and co, like Bart Ehrman, Meier, etc. Anybody can make up conspiracy theories without sound scholarship and proof. I can also make up my own for you, so it proves nothing. Sorry this is the age of information, and arguements don't stand these days by just conspiracy theories, l mean you can keep believing them but don't tout them as facts in a public forum like this, when there is whole field of science and scholarship dedicated to this and you ignore them for your own fake bloggers and Egyptiologist who are not experts in this area and are just making things up. |
Amujale:Can you give me the name of these historians who say that? Because the last time l checked, your claim is way out of academia and only maintained by fanatical atheist bloggers and not from scholars of classical works and 1st century writings. Oh l forgot, it is you again, so give me the name of the historian who say that josephus made up the jesus story ( which is impossible because we have writings from Paul and Mark dating back decades before josephus wrote antiquity of the jews). You don't just come making wild claims here, you should back up your claims with sources like you see in the write up from both l and MJBOLT. |
1Sharon finally this is the second reference to jesus by josephus considered by all to be authentic: Having such a character ["rash and daring" in the context], Ananus thought that with Festus dead and Albinus still on the way, he would have the proper opportunity. Convening the judges of the Sanhedrin, he brought before them the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, whose name was James, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned. |
1Sharon, l guess when you say fraudulent you are referring to this writing by josephus. lt is not fraudulent, only some added parts like Christ are considered fraudulent. But even if you reject this reference to jesus, the second reference to jesus is widely considered as authentic. So it doesn't change anything. This is the reference to jesus from josephus l believe you are talking about: About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3[43] For Greek text see [2] This is the more authentic version agreed on by majority of scholars: At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out. (per Meier, op. cit., page 61). The quote above is the authentic quote from josephus after removing the added parts and considering all the manuscript evidence. Also a couple of notes here: 1) The term wise man is a common language of josephus in his writing style. Christian's hardly used that term for jesus. 2)He blamed pilate and the Roman's for the crucifixion, Christians usually blamed jews for the crucifixion. 3) He referred to the Christians as "tribe of Christians ". Definitely this is a strange way for Christians to refer to themselves and is consistent with josephus who was a jew and not a Christian. And many other things like he saying that jesus preached to gentiles is contradictory to the new testament. Also phrases like "receive the truth with pleasure " are part of Josephine writing style |
1Sharon:l don't know what you mean by the josephus writing were proven to be fraudulent? are you saying all of josephus writing or only the part about jesus? josephus writing as a whole cannot be fraudulent, because only from his writings do we know so much about events in judea in the first century. lf rather you mean the parts relating to jesus then: Not all parts of it are fraudulent because we are able to gather all the manuscripts from josephus and scholars have shown the parts that were added and the ones belonging to the original. Also josephus mentions jesus twice, only in one of that was there an interpolation, the other one is genuine. |
Snowale:ln the context of that passage, the disciples were sorrowful that jesus would leave them, and so he tells them not to worry, that when he goes the comforter would come to them. So although Christians can apply the passage to themselves today( no problem) but it makes no sense if the disciples themselves who needed it then, did not experience this comfort from the comforter. |
Snowale:Thesame way you interprete those Christians bowing to the cross as worship of the cross is thesame way they see your kissing of that stone in Arabia as idolatory. |
Snowale:l don't think you understand my question, my question is: What is that special thing from Muhammed that you think l am missing? The comforter in john 16 is the spirit of truth who would be in the disciples. lf Muhammed was the comforter then why did he come about 500 years after the death of all the disciples of jesus, if he was to comfort them after the death of jesus? |
MJBOLT:Yeah he was still from Nazareth, insignificant to the Roman's and Greeks as well as the jews generally who looked down on Nazareth. lf you read josephus you would see that there were many healers during the time of jesus, but we didn't have much about them until josephus wrote his history. This was an oral culture and writing was only for the literate. |
Snowale:Whatever the story is, this was brought up because you said Christian's worship the cross. Judge not so that ye may not be judged. |
MJBOLT it seems you think writing was a popular thing in the ancient world. Now give me contemporary popular figures of his time you say philo wrote about. Philo's writings were mainly arguments on philosophy and interpretation of the jewish law, why should he write about an insignificant Gallilean rabbi from a backwater town like Nazareth? this is not a good argument from you at all in my opinion, sorry to say. |
MJBOLT:let me give you criticism of historians on your view that there was no contemporary account of the life of jesus. Mainstream biblical scholars point out that much of the writings of antiquity have been lost[143] and that there was little written about any Jew or Christian in this period.[144][145] Ehrman points out that we do not have archaeological or textual evidence for the existence of most people in the ancient world, even famous people like Pontius Pilate, whom the myth theorists agree to have existed.[144] Robert Hutchinson notes that this is also true of Josephus, despite the fact that he was "a personal favorite of the Roman Emperor Vespasian".[146] Hutchinson quotes Ehrman, who notes that Josephus is never mentioned in 1st century Greek and Roman sources, despite being "a personal friend of the emperor".[146] According to Classical historian and popular author Michael Grant, if the same criterion is applied to others: "We can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."[147] |
MJBOLT:lol, so Galatians is fictional? ok. |
Snowale:lf l believe in jesus why should l accept another prophet? if already l'm on the right path, why do l need extra prophets again? |
MJBOLT:l'm not sure you are familiar with this topic at all, philo was more into philosophy and political matters and we don't get so much information about religous people at the time or even contemporary jews from his writings, we get them mainly from josephus. Your criteria is wrong, we do not have contemporary writings about many historical people we know of today, not even the Ceasars. lt is usually after they are gone, sometimes decades and even hundreds of years. ln the case of jesus, we have paul who narrates his story in Galatians in AD 51, and who knew peter and james ( the brother of jesus), and speaks to his readers about them as though the readers were already familiar with these characters from the Jerusalem church. lt means just few years after the death of jesus, we already have paul who converted and there's evidence of a church and churches. The other characters you mention apart from philo, can you show me evidence those were contemporaries of jesus? |
MJBOLT:The historians that lived in jesus time also did not write about any jew. We know about many jews of the first century today due to the writings of josephus who lived towards the end of the first century. Caiaphas was the most important religous jew in the time of jesus but we have no contemporary writings about him until josephus, infact we have more records about jesus than about any jew from the first century as a whole. |
MJBOLT:No credible historian denies the existence of jesus. The only one l know who has a PhD in history that does this is Richard Carrier, and he hasn't been taken seriously in academia because his arguments are not convincing. So tell me why you think jesus did not exist, give me points and let's examine the arguments. |
sonmvayina:ok let's get something straight. For the records, jesus was neither a white man nor a black man. He was from the middle east. Not specifically white or black. lf your village people bring a saviour God that teaches self sacrificial love and the kingdom of God and then dies to give this kingdom a foundation, then l would believe in that saviour. The jesus story in the bible is like the joseph story. Joseph a wise man, was put in the pit by his brothers but rose out of the pit to save the world during the time of famine by giving the world corn from the most powerful kingdom in the world then( the kingdom of Egypt) where Joseph ruled from the throne, subordinate to only Pharaoh. So also jesus is the bread of life that gives the world the word of God to make their spirits come alive. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, and rules with God. Also in the Jewish myth, when God told Abraham to sacrifice isaac, this made no sense because it would have ended the promise God made to Abraham to bless the world through the progeny of isaac, but Abraham reasoned that death was not a barrier because God is able to raise isaac from the dead, so also when jesus(the promised one) died, this was not a barrier to the promise, because jesus is still fulfilling the promise until this day, jesus through his death has conquered the world and gained more followers from every tribe, nation, and tongue, which he bought with his blood according to the book of Revelations. That is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. |
AntiChristian:of course the bible is from men, anything wrong with that? there's nothing to show that God has ever authored any book in this world. |
They are just translations, God's message to mankind is in all the translations depending on how you read and understand them. |
MJBOLT:Then why was luke a physician? |
My faith has made me whole. lf l have faith and say to this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea, it shall be done. lf l Seek l shall find. God calleth things that are not as though they were. By faith we seek for a new kingdom. |
AntiChristian:Most likely thesame one who appeared to Abraham. |
Snowale:And those that don't believe that Bahai is a prophet or that Ahmadiya is a prophet are the muslims. Not all Christians worship cross, mary, or man. Besides saying Christian's worship cross is like saying muslims worship a stone because they kiss it. |
AntiChristian:Who appeared to Abraham? That being is called the Lord himself, and he was not all knowing. Genesis 18v1, 20-22 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. |
AntiChristian:l never said the bible was dictated by God, l said inspired men wrote it. ln my understanding of inspiration, l am inspired by nature to write beautiful poems. I believe there are different representations of God in the old testament, because in the old testament there is a special angel of the lord who is called the lord. However in the new testament, we read that no one has seen God at anytime, so it would mean what people saw in the old testament was probably a mighty Angel who was probably a ruler in our particular planet. Also this being appeared to Abraham with two Angel's, and he was the one who destroyed sodom and gomorrah. lf you read that story, you would see that the being was not all knowing because he went to confirm for himself about what he heard concerning sodom and gomorrah. |
Snowale:lslam Carries almost thesame stuff in the other two abrahamic religions, l see nothing quite special in islam, it just repeats Jewish and Christian myths with a twist, it would still be almost thesame tea at the end of the day, with different flavours. |
Roycemadeit:The clearest one is in John 9 l think when jesus healed a man born blind. The disciples asked him, who sinned? this man or his parents? Question: How could the man's sins be responsible for his blindness if he was born blind? Jesus didn't care to rebuke the belief of the disciples on this, he just replied saying it wasn't the sin of the man. This does not prove reincarnation in the bible, it only shows that the disciples at that time somehow had come to believe in it. |
englishmart:Hi Englishman, nice having you here. Well for starters, you said you are considering becoming an atheist and you listed 4 reasons that had little to do with belief in the existence of God. I wonder why you didn't consider becoming: Agnostic, Deist, African Spiritualist, or even just plain Christian Deist like some enlightened English Philosophers of the 17th and 18th century. Anyway let's look at 3 of your objections critically, shall we? You Wrote...1.Jesus is the only way to God, John 14:6 This invariably means those who don't believe in Jesus have no business in heaven. Well the elephant in the room is " What does it mean to believe in jesus? " lt depends on which Christian you ask or the particular denomination. John 14v6 says jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. This has nothing to do with any religion, what he means in my understanding is that the way of self sacrificial love(his way) is the way to the father. You Wrote...2. There are a lot of complications and contradictory remarks in the Bible- a verse says don't drink, another says "Drink for your stomach sake", or "Do not drink wherein excess." Malachi 3:10 a famous Bible verse on tithing speaks about bringing your tithe to the storehouse (church, maybe) Deuteronomy 14:22-26 says otherwise, it says "you should drink and be merry with your tithe". I'm seriously beginning to doubt the credibility of the Bible. Maybe the translators' fault or God told writers different stories on the same issue. Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's account of Jesus and see real contradictions. l don't blame you on this one, because many Christians misunderstand what the bible is or the purpose of the bible. However you don't need the bible to give you do's and don't such as drink or don't drink, you only need to extract the consistent principles across the bible to guide you as you make up laws that suite your society at a particular time and in a particular context. As regards contradictions in the gospels, there are contradictions, because they are four different books. You Wrote...3)Does God answer prayers? Well, I'm really sure about that. Someone might be suffering from malaria, the person takes drugs and still prays, the drugs work, but the person thanks God. l believe God answers prayers, and our faith in prayers helps us tremendously, it also helps us connect to that which we pray for spiritually. God answers prayers but not always in ways we can understand. Also jesus told us what to do before we pray so God can hear us, he said we must abolish every kind of unforgiveness for our brother. |
AntiChristian:No this is where you are wrong, the wordings and meaning are not from God, rather the message it tries to convey was put down because of God's inspiration, however that message and how it was conveyed was totally up to the person writing it. lt wasn't dictated to them by God. |
feedback:Exactly |
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