₦airaland Forum

Depends on the task at hand

The best boss I've ever had was female. But then she was top management- gave her a lot of 'default' power.

Other female bosses may be good but they tend to have less power than equally ranked male peers- which leads to them and their team getting victimized. Not nice no matter how 'nice' they are.

Weak male bosses are just as bad, even worse, because they become bullies. A weak female boss wont bully you around just because she feels she's being victimized- the one I had actually gave us all a feeling of 'dont mind them, we shall overcome'

The second best boss I've had was a relatively low ranked but strong male boss. Because of his force of personality he could easily roll with the big boys, and we, his men, became 'stars' after a fashion as a result. However bosses like him are 1 in a million.

Summary: gender DOES matter, but unfortunately it is not clear which is better. it all depends (as usual) on context

really?

That's interesting. Could u give a link or two? I'd like to see that.

It would really be impressive if they can achieve such a feat without modifying the languages to such an extent that legacy code would be incompatible! If they did break compatibility however, then these languages should be regarded as modern languages, similar to their legacy cousins in name only.

Remember, all imperative languages are structurally derived from fortran. A noncompatible OO iteration of fortramn is no different from any other modern imperative in this regard.

Portability means sufficiently distinct from the hardware to enable the language maintain its independence.

C was designed with portability in mind, and most major languages since then have adopted it.

It means that your code isn;t tied to a specific implementation of the language. A portable language can theoretically never be obsolete, because it will always be compilable/runnable on the latest hardware with minimal changes.

Nonportable languages like cobol and fortran however are dependent on the hardware/ os they were designed for-hence the problem. When the implementing company ceases support, you are screwed, and moving to better hardware is difficult.

Thats why fortran and cobol skills are best used in maintaining existing installations that are too big/complex to upgrade trivially, or making 'glue' layers like clocky and his team were doing to enable interoperability with more modern systems

However to implement a NEW system with these languages is unwise at best. You don't want to be tied to a particular implementation.

Dude.

Which banks?

All the banks I know take 2.2's if they pass.

If you failed the interviews, it was because of something else. Banks usually draw the line at 3rd class.

The main culprits of grade discrimination are consulting firms, and if you arent a 2.1 or 1st, you should realise you will probably not be comfortable in such an environment, anyway.

Yeah, its true, fortran/cobol are still being used. Languages that were popular in the past, are still in existence everywhere.

However, the question is, is it wise to start new projects using those languages? I believe not- more because they are nonportable than that they are old. I would give the same argument against VB version 6 (not .net, which is portable and hardware independent) because Microsoft has dropped support, effectively making it a legacy language.

The uses of fortran/cobol today is mainly in maintaining legacy systems, which means old systems that are still in use. As these systems are retired, the need for these languages will fade, but for now the skills are very much in demand. However it is wise to mention that the implementations of these languages that you will be supporting are usually upon proprietary, rare, and expensive operating systems- simply being good at watfor77 won't get you a multibillion dollar job at a multinational!

Bossman, I agree with your entire post! My current place of work is an excellent example of this exactly what you describe, and I do not deny that at the present, mainframe/legacy skills are a definite plus.

However, I *do* disagree with the 'its not going anywhere' bit at the bottom. It *is* going away. Its just a matter of time.

Finally, lets keep my points of view in context:

Fortran and cobol obsolete?
My answer is no. Because though fortran has given birth to a legion of imperative children, COBOL remains cobol, and as such does not have an obvious modern succesor.

Is it a good thing to keep things in these languages around?

NO. Even though it is profitable to maintain such kludges, that would be like a doctor saying polio is a great thing cos it keeps him in business. We may get paid to maintain legacy crap, but it remains crap unless it is portable. For Gods sake, the C language is prehistoric too, but it is viewed as modern simply because it is portable, unlike dinosaurs like cobol and fortran. Cockroach versus Apatosaur. Who survived till the modern age, eh?


And as for clocky, if you would rather descend to the level of senseless name-calling, understand that I have written you off as a person of any intelligence whatsoever, and thus would be glad to engage you in a bout of mudslinging insults. bring it on.

Res4- all the mags in the world say that that game is the best ever. i justy *have* to play it,

Halo2- bros, if u dont play FPS, you are seeeeriously missing out! Take the plunge, get over the learning curve and a whole new world awaits you! I swear you will never look back.

Alan Wake- dude. The game has not even come out. Lets not bother about it untiol we actually see what its about, ne?

SMW- I feel u brotha. Remember the debate mario 3 vs mario world? Well for me it was mario world any day!amazing!

At the moment there is no CPU in existence that will emulate ps2 full speed, with current emulators.

Video cards will not help- emulation is a CPU thing, except with HLE's, and pcsx2 is *not* an hle.

You'll have to by a ps2, dude, sorry. There's been a recent price drop so I guess ull be cool, $129 I think.

Yo DD, cool down.

The tone of your posts could be misinterpreted as arrogant/elitist,

Something you don't need to be. The intelligence of your posts speaks for itself. But remember many of the people in 3rd class and pass are not happy about it, and there's no need for the rest of us to be unnecesarily smug. I used to feel a sense of 'hah. when u were playing u didnt know' before, but I discovered in the long run that it doesn't pay.

If that wasnt the intent of your posts, cool, but I just thought to let you know what they sounded like. peace.

language, mr admin,

Theory is where everything you are living today, was in the past.

I've been into computers for the better part of my life, and I've seen mere ideas become reality and *then* accepted fact! Its a lovely experience and you can try it!

That's one of the best things about computing- in our world, the world of code, ideas can become reality! And they do, by far more often than they do in the dreary, mundane non-digital world, where ideas remain ideas forever.

If you can abstract it, it CAN happen in the digital world! And the total obliteration of crappy legacy nonsense is much closer than you would think.

If you really are world-weary and cynical enough to turn up your nose at such a possibility, I urge you to read up on the TCPA, or trusted computing initiative. It is, far from being an idealistic fantasy, a terrible, sinister reality that is already taking root- witness windows vista, the intel core duo, the EFI in intel imacs, we recently took order of IBM thinkcentre servers and guess what? TCPA signatures in the root of the drive.

Anyone basing anything of value on legacy-encumbered, unportable systems is soon going to have to face a harsh reality! could YOU imagine a world without floppy drives? a world where operating systems in excess of ten gigabytes are freely available and distributable over a worldwide network of billions of diverse computing devices? These were mere dreams when I started programming on my 32 kilobytes strong BBC computer back in the late eighties, when I amused myself burying my nose in one-year-out-of-date copies of PC world, where men like John Dvorak predicted things that have come to pass almost a decade ago!

My friend, in the world of code and coding, it pays to think ahead, it pays to dream, to imagine. Because here where we are, dreams are made real. And the day that ends is the day I give up my lifelong fascination with the timeless poetry of code.

key word: No longer supported.

They will soon run into issues of media incompatibility, parts scarcit,

Jesus! This was a discussion about fortran and cobol being obsolete! See how the thing done metamorphosize.

Funny enough, name-calling aside, it does indeed seem hat we are in agreement about quite a number of things.

So, lets round this up:

I guess it didn't make sense for your firm to rewrite the code for them, since you weren't being paid a sum commensurate to such a task. Indeed it would be impractical for you to do such. And, I reluctantly agree, lame, (tho I'm not so sure that what amounts to a huge act of charity qualifies as lame!). But it would not be lame and impractical for THEM to do so! In fact it would benefit them in the long run, ne?

Glad you agree that the world would be a better place, legacy free. And rest assured it will be! Although it is not the most wholesome of methods, the Trusted Computing Initiative will soon make sure of that. I assume the only holdout against this onslaught of DRM and 'managed' programming languages will be FOSS software, and they are focused on portability, which is also an opponent of obsolete legacy systems!

As Richard Stallman said, code should be allowed to die. Standards should be allowed to live. Ignoring these basic rules is what leads to the mess of obsolete, cuddy code mucking up our systems and giving us all a bad name.

Yeah!

Go Seun!

U gat d right idea- empower the private sector! competition and capitalism will create progress.

Unfortunately it will take a visionary leader to achieve this. This is because the very people who should yield control to market forces and the private sector are the people whose mouths dey for the centre of di awoof. And as long as they are allowed to sit there and get fatter and fatter on the nation's treasury, they will not release control. They will regulate the private sector into irrelevance.

What is the solution to this problem?

Yeah, you are absolutely right

We have a consultant at the company I work for who makes obscene amounts, so huge I cannot mention them here writing ridiculously simple translation layers, wrappers, etc for some of our legacy systems, whenever we need to connect them to modern 'channels'.

He has succesfully reverse engineered a large, poorly supported system that we and a number of other companies in our line of business depend upon. Since he is the one and only person around who can do this, he can demand for whatever he wants and he is paid! I swear you will pass out if you hear what he makes.

We are currently in the process of putting an end to that and guess what? He is in a state of panic. All of a sudden it costs more to pay him, and less to simply replace the legacy system, hardware, infrastructure, everything! The new system will support open interfaces and will integrate better.

So, in summary, that the legacy languages (in this case it is RPG, the report generator, similar in construction to COBOL and ugly as hell) are relevant is absolutely true. However, the need to replace them with newer, more portable, more open systems is neither LAME nor IMPRACTICAL. And to demonstrate a preference for the legacy-free approach does not demonstrate IGNORANCE.

Zeb, you're right

You can't cheat your way to a first class- it's nearly impossible.

However you CAN cheat your way to a 2.1. Check my post above to see how this was done when I was in school, and is still done now, if what I hear from my bro is correct.

Summary: you probably can't sleep your way from a 3rd to a 2.1 (some friends in *certain universities* would beg to disagree, but I take their stories with a pinch of salt. 'Bad belle' can be powerful) BUT you can definitely sleep your way from a 2.2 to a 2.1, or be forced to use your body to maintain a foundering 2.1.

Also there was the girl I mentioned who was a strong 2.1, eventually downgraded to 2.2 over a period of 2 tortuous years. I witnessed this, but was powerless to act.

A computer system or application program which continues to be used because of the cost of replacing or redesigning it and often despite its poor competitiveness and compatibility with modern equivalents. The implication is that the system is large, monolithic and difficult to modify.

If legacy software only runs on antiquated hardware the cost of maintaining this may eventually outweigh the cost of replacing both the software and hardware unless some form of emulation or backward compatibility allows the software to run on new hardware.

Thanks for proving my point!

Emulation is a performance-sucking kludge, and backwards compatibility is a sometimes neccesary evil, but evil nonetheless. Legacy free is good. That is the beauty of PORTABILITY.

My point: just because something is difficult to do doesn't mean that managing a second-rate solution is right.

I have interacted with many 1st class students, from various disciplines.

One thing I can say is this: A 1st class does not come easy, even if you are from the University Of The Gutter. It is HARD to get. And though I know many GENIUSES in 2.2,2.1 and EVEN THIRD (yes indeed. said genius left the country and obtained a grade commensurate to his ability in the UK), the simple fact is that there are more geniuses in first class. There are those that are not geniuses, of course, in fact there are those that are very very slow, but a first class means you have demonstrated an ability to WORK HARD, and to beat the rigours of the school system.

Personally, I would speak out AGAINST any attempt to end discrimination in favour of them! They eschewed social life and refrained from fooling around with girls on campus. they deserve respect.


2.1's- well, coming from a Nigerian uni  wouldnt be so quick to universally endorse them like the firsts. davidylan- I'd like to mention that it is entirely possible for a girl to sleep her way to 2.1- in fact it is closer to the norm. DD, you say you only saw like 5 cases, and the lecturers got thrown out? well my counter is this- when you see one bedbug, you may squash it, but it means your matress is TEEMING with them. This you will not see for sure till you take it outside and burn it. practically EVERY girl I knew well enough in school to be on deep conversation terms with post-graduation had a story or another to tell. Most times, a girl will not tell ayone at all- it is more dangerous for her than the lecturer. And it doesnt have to be for all subjects. It could just be for a few key ones.

The girls that fall victim (or not, as the case may be) are not the dullards floundering at the bottom of the pile. There are many attractive ladies buzzing around the higher echelons of the 2.2 grade, and it is these that are usually victimized, or that offer their bodies up for a 2.1.   I know of a girl in the upper regions of 2.1 who was systematically downgraded due to non-compliance, in such a way that it was almost impossible for her to prove that she was being victimized. dd, these things happen.

Personally, I think that in the Nigerian setting, a second class degree cannot trivially be stratified. We can be sure that the firsts are model students(though some may be dumb), and the thirds are NOT model students (though some may be smart) but the 2.1's are not neccesarily superior to the 2.2's.

<<snip>> don't even know what a fourth generation language is.

Anyway, it's not just because it was written in a THIRD gen language or whatever.

It is written in a NONPORTABLE language.

Because big companies use crap doesn't make it right.

Afterall, Yahoo uses PHP, ne? And I agreed with you on another forum that php is a rather ugly language due to its weak typing.

Lame? impractical?

I suppose it would be impractical and/or lame from a consultants' point of view.

I imagine what you probably meant to say was 'rewriting legacy code would have been too much work- and why do ajayi work, afterall na my faddah own di bank?'

In summary: code lying around in a nonportable language is a bad thing. To rewrite it is neither lame nor impractical, but neccesary. Just say you would rather *you* didn't have to do it.

yes.

remember the words of arthur c clarke.

any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

the only reason you are talking like this is because you were born into a world where cars and planes already exist. They are very, very recent, and when they were new, people like you called it challenging God.

in the future, when invisibility is so commonplace it is no longer a big deal, Bolex jnr will lament about how teleportation is challenging God, and how invisibility does not compare!

hey old glory, can you give contact details?

I imagine there are many nairalanders like me who dont want to go the cotonou route once more, and will appreciate having a direct contact in the states.

scientists do the thinking

engineers actually DO what scientists think about.

In your thiking, engineers are actually worse because they are the ones that will build the invisible aeroplane, they are the ones who will calculate the parameters to account for diffraction due to heat emission, point-of-view tracking, and all the 'dirty details' that will need to be worked out while implementing the scientists' ideas

abi what do you think all your bigbig maths textbooks are for. for fun?

planes and cars are daring God, too. God gave us horses. today we have cars with over 200 horse-power. Before aeroplanes, luddites like you used to say 'if God wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings'. God didnt give us wings. He only gave angels wings. Now we fly, too, on a daily basis in our aeroplanes, helicopters, vtols, hot air balloons, and a million other flying devices. I can communicate with you and a million other Nigerians using the internet without saying A WORD, but only moving my fingers around a WEIRD LOOKING PLASTIC BOARD WITH ARCANE GRECO-ROMAN SYMBOLS engraved on it, LOOKING INTO A GLASS/CRYSTAL TUBE that emits INVISIBLE RAYS! tell me if that doesnt sound like witchcraft!

If you don't believe in the science, you will be a terrible engineer, and in the long run you will regret your choice of profession. But I am sure that soon, you will learn to accept technology. Thus i have high hopes for ure future, Bolex!

Why not just rewrite the legacy code?

I imagine this bridging solution will incure a serious performance hit.

Fortran should not be too difficult to translate to a new language? Its not like COBOL where entire programming concepts will have to be rethought- a fortran program should be quite easy to rewrite in any modern imperative language?

My Final year project depended almost entirely on programming concepts illustrated in fortran, which I implemented in VB. Wasn't hard at all- in fact the code looks so similar.

There is a lesson to be learned here-

talk not about what you know not.

I humbly retract my statement about the weak typing of PHP being a good thing. having just checked up on this page:

http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/168

I can see that the weak typing of PHP does indeed render it a toy language. The last straw was the ridiculous assertion that floats can never be tested for equality. EH?!!

Now I can only wonder how such a language can be used succesfully in such large and high profile websites as yahoo?   perhaps it is true that web apps really are toy apps afterall.


So, my apologies to clocky.

But yahoo is a high end webapp now.

And why do you hate that it isn't strongly typed? A non-strongly typed language is a good thing IMHO. Now that we have the processor cycles to support it, why do we have to continuously expose ourselves to buffer overflows and other such evil by trying to control mallocs manually? Its not as if you are writing games or CAD applications. You are designing a website. Among the simplest and most brainless of programming tasks. (note: i did not say *design* tasks ooo! b4 u web gurus tear me apart. website design is challenging and fulfilling and requires an iq of over 200 to do etc etc etc blablabla , )