₦airaland Forum

logicboy: What is poverty? Is it not directly related to money? You mentioned poverty.

Poverty of what? You really didn't read literature-in-english did you?

Fortunes dont relate only to money. Good fortunes can mean good health, happiness etc

Apparently you did not take cognisance of that in your response to mine.

plaetton: You have to undersatnd that your theistic viewpoints does not reperesent those of most theists. Almost all thiests scoff at and have a built-in phobia towards the word evolution.

You mean to say, almost all unschooled and mostly third-world borrowed-religion theists.

Simply put, evolution renders the literal undertanding of genesis null and void.

Genesis is an interesting cultural account of creation - amongst thousands in the world. As such I see no reason to single it out. Genesis is neither here nor there in the philosophical questions of atheism and theism.

Y'all need to put the darn religions aside in your postulations on atheism and theism. I only expect such fixation on religion from noveau-athiests like the youngster, logicboy.

jayriginal: What is, is and what isnt, isnt.

I always love it when you say this. Excellent and profound.

I simply find that a lot of people know very little about evolution and make some of the most horrid assumptions. They usually try to refute evolution by creationism.
Among the questions are "why havent human beings evolved into something else", or "why havent monkeys evolved to humans" or as someone recently asked "why havent cats evolved to be walking on twos" etc.

People who say such are unschooled id.iots.

MyJoe: Iden's point appears to be that homosexuality exists in nature and all things that exist in nature are natural.

Before I proceed I will just point out that this is where the problem lies. Idehn is really saying that anything that exists in reality is natural.

That is an altogether different statement from your summation, sir.

[size=4pt]By the by, I'm almost done, as per our book. [/size]

MyJoe: Edit: I'm assuming, of course, that you agree that everything that exists in nature is natural.

To be more exact: the correct position is that everything that exists in reality is possible.

Nature, as per the evidential thrust of living things, is a different matter altogether, and is being WILDLY conflated here with "reality."

plaetton: C'mon Deepsight,
What nice planet are you living on!
Bless me, heal me,protect me, give me strenght, give me this, grant me that. That is prayer. Perhaps not on your planet, but on my plantet, that is what we hear 99.8% of the time.
Its a request, a compliant, a petition, and an indictment for a univerese apparently not perfectly designed.
There should be no room for a complainer in a perfectly ordered universe, unless, ofcourse, you agree that the designer has not finished his work. If so, then resting on the 7th day was way too prematature.
lol.

What utter nonsense.

logicboy: What makes you think "fortunes" always means "money"? You seem poverty stricken yourself!

I didn't say anything about money in my post, my friend. You did, in yours.

plaetton: Therefore, I ask, is prayer(asking god to change fortunes) not an act of protest!, an indictment!
Is prayer not a covert way of telling god that he needs step up his game and to do a better job than he has been doing!

If you believe that prayer is merely "asking God to change fortunes" then I regret to say you have a poverty-stricken idea of what that word refers to in terms of a communication with God.

This was a post made by omonaijanimio on a thread about the recent Nigeria-SA diplomatic row -

"Interesting thread. I am Nigerian. Live in Nigeria. Love it! Visited 11 countries in almost all continents. Worked in 3 countries (including SA) deploying technology on behalf of my global energy company (180 countries bro). Citizens of the world commit crime and also do good things wherever they find themselves. Most South Africans dont know this cos they're very simple and local. Please travel some. Why do South African women marry Nigerian men? Ask them why, hope your ego survives the answer. There are 400 SA companies here in naija. We also have several small and medium scale Nigerian companies in SA. We support the SA medical system with skilled and experienced doctors. Is SA a beautiful country? Yes. Would I live there? NO. Nigeria is also very beautiful and has limitless opportunities with the biggest market in Africa. Can Nigeria survive MTN and co leaving? They only got here yesterday. Will nationalize them in a minute. We did well without them and would continue to do so. We also have home grown Telcos (Glo, etc.) giving MTN a run for their money and also operating in other West African countries. Do we care if all Naijas in SA are deported? We are 160 million people. 4 in 10 black men is Nigerian. Who cares about illegal immigrants? Will Nigerians retaliate if even the illegals in SA are mistreated rather than being repatriated properly, if needed? Ask your government. They know. Can Nigeria go toe to toe with SA diplomatically? Ask Britain. We recently halted BA flights for messing with Arik airlines, and we kicked out the British and Nationalized BP in the 70s because of your sorry Black asses being enslaved by the Europeans. We need no favors from SA. We are no beggars - ask your women. We will survive and thrive anywhere - ask your women again. We are very loyal and proud, and SA is too inexperienced globally to mess with us. Our President is a PhD, while yours takes a bath and eats beetroot to prevent AIDS. BTW, after reading this comment, scoot to the front page of The Sowetan and see the abuses, murder, corruption, paedophilic and gerontophilic abuses being reported, were those also committed by Nigerians? Always looking for someone to blame are you? We are not Zimbabweans or any other panhandling SADAC folk. We will hit back where we can. A Nigerian did not become the richest African through BBE or apartheid era stolen lucre. Watch and learn fuckas".

https://www.nairaland.com/890816/south-africans-reacts-govt.s-appology/1

South Africa has an enormous infrastructural, and I dare say, even institutional superiority over Nigeria in every sector of the economy and in many places is no different from Europe or North America. However peeps should note two important facts:

1. There are also many areas in which South Africa will never be able to match Nigeria. The extent, quality and impact of the Nigerian Diapora is one. The amount, quality, and exposure of Nigerian professionals is another. The size and power of the emerging Nigerian Middle Class is a third. The gutsy, first-class-citizen mentality of the average Nigerian is a fourth. People who have lived in SA will readily tell you that black South Africans are generally no match for Nigerians in any endeavour. They simply don't have the same self-esteem. This is a real observation.

2. There is a great deal of wretched poverty in SA as well. Like I said, developed areas are just like Europe and North America, but some of the slums make Ajegunle look pretty. Personally, the largest slum I have even seen in my life was just outside Jo'burg. I have never seen a slum as expansive as that anywhere in Nigeria. And I have never seen that levelof wretchedness so closely encamped on such a vast scale beside first-world level opulence.

plaetton: Ok. First, there is no such thing as nothing. Energy is the all-pervading essence, and is either active or in potential. Active energy interacts with itself giving rise simple particles that later morph into complex particles and so on. energy and matter are interconvertible. E=MC2
The hand of a conscious being is not required for this to happen. Consciousness itself may likely be a by-product of energy interactions and not the primordal cause.
Therefore, there is only one entity, substance or force(whatever you want to call it), and that is pure energy. Everything else emanates from the ceaseless interactions of energy, including sentience and consciouness and awareness.

I have to come back to deal with this.But let me just say for now that physical energy/matter do not posess the quality of self-existence as they are neither intantigble or immutable - two key attributes of self-existence. When this is added to the correct fact you noted above that there is no such thing as nothing, then we are left with a permanent something with the attributes of self-existence as the only rational conclusion. That is what is called God.

Will discuss more.

Martian: It all starts with you. You have to ask yourself questions like

What or who is a god?
Why do I think or believe that there is a god?
How many gods do people believe in?
Why do I believe in my god?
Why don't I believe in other gods?
Why do I refer to some gods as mythological characters but mine is not even though they share the same characteristics?
Why don't we worship the old gods?
How did I come to believe in my god?
Do reality justify my beliefs or contradict them?
What is the history of my religion?

These should get you going.....

These are excellent questions whch every person should undertake to ask himself and also meditate honestly on.

^^^ I cant see how the fact that stars have been exploding "since the dawn of time" contradicts what FELLIS said.

I think I really just got fatigued with this thread. I'll give it a shot tomorrow to see if I can still point out again how terribly the words "nature" and "reality" are being conflated. They are not the same thing.

And as per the point on evolution: the fact that it applies to populations is neither here nor there regarding the point it underscores. It underscores the fact that the evolutionary thrust of nature discloses that which aligns with the thrust of nature: and from an evolutionary point of view - homose.xuality certainly does not.

More later in the day.

Purist: Praying is hilarious.
Surely, [God] knows what you want already?
"I just want to hear you say it! Beg!
That's better. I'll think about it."

- Ricky Gervais

If the said Ricky Gervais thinks that prayer is about begging, then he would have to be a most shallow excuse for a being gifted with human sentience.

Martian: An example of a miracle would have been a unicorn bursting forth out her v@gina singing, "Welcome to the Jungle"

No, this is an example of you offering most puerile caricatures of things.

An example of a miracle will be if it ever occurs to Martian to stop making caricatures of things. Now, that willindeed be a miracle.

As I hinted prior, evolution has nothing to do with theism or atheism.

logicboy: This is part 2 of my other thread; Things they wont tell you about Islam
https://www.nairaland.com/943454/things-they-wont-tell-you

These are all facts;

1) Christianity is a foreign religion to Nigeria and it came through the enslavement of Nigerian tribes and colonization of Nigeria.

2) Christianity by far has been the religion with the most amount of blood on it's hands from war to slavery to torture of heretics and crusades/inquisition.

3) The bible is sexist and clearly states that women must be silent in church and must be in submission (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

4) The bible never condemns slavery. Never. The bible regulates slavery. However, some people in recent times (2000 to present) have tried to remix the bible to condemn slavery in the bible. Plese read the different translations of 1 Timothy 1;10 http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-10.htm and see how people have tried to remix the bible.

5) The catholic church is the oldest christian denomination of churches to exist. The catholic compiled the bible that Christians use today. Yet, protestants try to distance themselves from the evils of the catholic church (eg cover-ups of pedophilia) while using the bible compiled by catholics.

6) The bible contradicts itself with morals (Sermon on the mount, 10 commandments) while condoning immorality eg regulation of slavery, God ordering Hebrews to commit genocide against Canaanites, sexist statements in the bible etc. Some of these still occurred in the New Testament.

7) The bible promotes bigotry against atheists by claiming that atheists are fools and corrupt. Psalm 14;1. Atheophobia

Jesus treated the Canaanite woman who came for help in a way that could be described as racist/xenophobic- using "dog" as a metaphor for her and telling her that He (Jesus) came for the lost sheep of Isreal. Matthew 15:22-26

9) Many churches in Nigeria have Jesus painted as white. Nigeria is a country that is majorly black. Jesus has little probability of being white considering his heritage and environemnt.

10) Judaism and Christianity were not the first religions on earth. There were Atenism and Zoroastrianism before Judaism.


Bonus; I didnt mention science or evolution or big b.ang.

Why did you call me here? What is the meaning of this thread. There should be more to atheism than mere religion bashing. Fundamentally, you need to have strong philosophical reasons for the core atheistic proposition. That is where to start from, son.

logicboy: This is part 2 of my other thread; Things they wont tell you about Islam
https://www.nairaland.com/943454/things-they-wont-tell-you

These are all facts;

1) Christianity is a foreign religion to Nigeria and it came through the enslavement of Nigerian tribes and colonization of Nigeria.

2) Christianity by far has been the religion with the most amount of blood on it's hands from war to slavery to torture of heretics and crusades/inquisition.

3) The bible is sexist and clearly states that women must be silent in church and must be in submission (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

4) The bible never condemns slavery. Never. The bible regulates slavery. However, some people in recent times (2000 to present) have tried to remix the bible to condemn slavery in the bible. Plese read the different translations of 1 Timothy 1;10 http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-10.htm and see how people have tried to remix the bible.

5) The catholic church is the oldest christian denomination of churches to exist. The catholic compiled the bible that Christians use today. Yet, protestants try to distance themselves from the evils of the catholic church (eg cover-ups of pedophilia) while using the bible compiled by catholics.

6) The bible contradicts itself with morals (Sermon on the mount, 10 commandments) while condoning immorality eg regulation of slavery, God ordering Hebrews to commit genocide against Canaanites, sexist statements in the bible etc. Some of these still occurred in the New Testament.

7) The bible promotes bigotry against atheists by claiming that atheists are fools and corrupt. Psalm 14;1. Atheophobia

Jesus treated the Canaanite woman who came for help in a way that could be described as racist/xenophobic- using "dog" as a metaphor for her and telling her that He (Jesus) came for the lost sheep of Isreal. Matthew 15:22-26

9) Many churches in Nigeria have Jesus painted as white. Nigeria is a country that is majorly black. Jesus has little probability of being white considering his heritage and environemnt.

10) Judaism and Christianity were not the first religions on earth. There were Atenism and Zoroastrianism before Judaism.


Bonus; I didnt mention science or evolution or big b.ang.

Why did you call me here? What is the meaning of this thread. There should be more to atheism than mere religion bashing. Fundamentally, you need to have strong philosophical reasons for the core atheistic proposition. That is where to start from, son.

This -

Idehn: I hate to add another layer to our epistemological disagreement, but I would disagree with labeling these thing as non-physical. All these things you described are all physical objects in some form. For example emotions,thoughts,ideas are physical objects that exist in our brain as a specific arrangement of neurons and chemical/biological processes they trigger. Concepts(without regard to there validity), such as infinite time,numbers,and infinite space are also ultimately a specific grouping of neurons.

Contradicts this -

That is how we humans(physical objects), have access to and interact with them in the first place.

- - - And as such concludes the point that those things are not physical things!

Because your last line itself discloses that what is physical is the means by which we apprehend these things, and not the things themselves

Martian: What are examples of "non physical" things??

1. Infinite Time

2. Infinite Space

3. Numbers

4. Ideas

5. Thoughts

6. Emotions

Martian: And if you really want a pyramid, you can go to Vegas and gamble inside one. It beats the one in Egypt that's meant for the burial of some egomaniacal pharoah.

See? Pyramids can be built, but who really wants to waste time recreating the ones in Egypt when they can build the one in Vegas.......and make money.

[b]Design
Designed by hotel architect Veldon Simpson and interior designer Charles Silverman,[25] the Luxor has received recognition as being among the most recognizable hotels on the strip because of its unique design. The main portion of the hotel is a 365-foot (111 m)-high, 30-story pyramid encased in 11 acres of dark bronze glass.[5][26][27] The guest rooms are situated on the outer walls of the pyramid and are reached by riding in "inclinators" that travel along the inner surface of the pyramid at a 39-degree angle. The hotel also features a 29 million cubic feet (820,000 m³) atrium, which was the largest open atrium in the world when it was built in 1993.[5][28] The hotel is marked by a 140-foot (43 m)-high obelisk and a 110-foot (34 m)-tall re-creation of the Great Sphinx of Giza.[29] The tip of the pyramid contains a fixed-position spotlight that points directly upward and is claimed to be the brightest beam in the world at over 42.3 billion candle power.[30]

Beam
The light of the Luxor
At 42.3 billion candlepower, the Luxor Sky Beam is the strongest beam of light in the world. Using computer designed, curved mirrors to collect the light from 39 Xenon lamps and focus them into one intense, narrow beam, engineers say that a person could read a newspaper by Luxor’s Sky Beam from ten miles up. On a clear night, the Sky Beam is visible up to 250 miles away to an airplane at cruising altitude, and is clearly visible from Outer Space.[31]
[/b]

This beats me. I honestly dont know how anyone can compare 21st century technology to something built 3000 - 4000 years ago.

You have cranes and computers to build for you. They had their bare hands and rudimentary wooden levers and ropes.

And you dare make a comparison.

It took far more brilliance, resourcefulness, doggedness, intelligence and architectural mastery to build the pyramids at that time than it takes to build ANY structure today, no matter how magnificent.

Martian: Or visit the sistine chapel for another ode to religious fantasy.....either way, the pyramids are great, but they are not that great relative to modern architecture.

This is such a wrong statement.

Firstly, the pyramids are not just great, they are fabulous - in and of themselves.

Secondly, they are more fabulous than modern structures relative to the stage of development of building techniques at the time.

logicboy: What is a simple materialist? I am tired of these word games.

There is no spirituality.

So you dont even know what a strict materialist is and yet you interpolate your ignorance into these discussions?

Even after I already defined the term in the post where i first used it.

Go and read that post.

Martian: So....."non physical" things are "physical" matter and energy........??

If they are "physical", why call them non physical??

Still, that's just your definition. You didn't give any examples of these "spiritual" "non physical" things. What are examples of "phiscal matter and energy as scientifically defined" that are non physical.

Oh no, there was an error there. I meant that physical things are "physical matter and energy as scientifically defined" - while non-physical things are not such physical matter and energy.

^^^ Hey there, I actually also hate definition games and I criticise people alot for it. But in this instance I honestly need to know what you consider spiritual, so that i dont end up giving examples whuch you will consider merely physical. For example I may cite "love" as a spiritual thing and you may counter by saying that it is merely physical and arises from hormones, neurons etc.

If you dont feel like telling me what the word means to you, then at least answer my other question: Are you a strict materialist?

Martian: .......what do you mean by non physical things?

Physical matter and energy as scientifically defined.

^ Please first tell me what you would consider to be a spiritual thing.

I need to know first if you are a strict materialist: i.e: you believe that only physical things exist?

^^^ There is a great post from Prizm a long time ago that excellently captures what I am saying here -

Prizm: Have you ever run into people who say something like "If something is not immediately evident to my five senses, it is not real and should not be believed"? or "The only reality I can accept is that reality that is empirically observable" or something like "Reality is simply something that is physical and can be directly apprehended by the 5 sense organs" or something like "If you cannot know or prove something with your 5 senses then that thing is just meaningless and has no truth value"?

My point is that people who make such claims do not live their lives as though they actually believed the full import of that statement. For there are a vast number of situations where human beings act and behave on presuppositions and assumptions that we are very rational to believe but which are not empirically testable. How for example do such people deal with ethical truths, aesthetic truths, or moral truths? As a matter of fact, even science itself (which they'd always want to fall back on ) works on lots of assumptions that have not been explicitly observed or proven. Such people who adopt these positions (Verificationists) cannot function much in society for their attitude is inimical to science itself and commonsense. On the whole, this philosophical Verificationism is self-referentially incoherent for it doesn't take much to figure out that any statement of Verificationist principles i[b]s by its very nature incapable of being empirically observed.[/b]

logicboy: I dont believe in anything spiritual

On reflection, this is a very funny statement. Actually even contradictory and absurd.

I will tell you why. You live your entire life based on con-physical concepts and notions. Everything that you are and everything that your life is, are agglomerations of non-physical things. And yet you cavalierly make this sort of statement. Its so funnyy. Pause and think carefully about it.

Before responding, as you are ever quick to do, I want you to review this thread -

https://www.nairaland.com/357796/kag-atheism-dialectics-spirituality

^^^ It doesnt matter whether the atheist believes in such. Read the teachings above. All that matters is that he believes in and practices love to all men, and keeps a clear conscience. Finito. If he does this, he will beat a million so called christians and muslims to the finish line.

Gba.

This still remains for me the singular most absurd and incredible christian teaching and it is mind-boggling that supposedly enlightened people persist in the belief that a young woman who finds herself pregnant actually got pregnant because a spirit did it. What a story.

Do people reflect on the fact that at that time the punishment if Mary had no story to sell would have been a stoning to death. Nice story she came up with, but it speaks volumes that billions of people have proceeded to base their sacred faith on such obviously spurious spin.