₦airaland Forum

Kay 17: in a theist+atheist discussion, it can't be taken for granted.

In any theist/ atheist discussion, the primary definition of God is well settled: It refers to an unembodied transcendental mind responsible for all alse that exists. This is beqond cavil: and as I said, no serious discussant will seek to eternally quibble about that.

Qualities ascribed or unique to the God-View of specific religions, such as goodness, mercy, righteousness, being a trinity, and the like, are not precepts that challenge the fundamental description of that which is referred to as God in terms of Theistic/ Atheistic discourses.

As such, I can only recall the words of an old poster on this board - Prizm, where he said (i paraphrase) that "no serious person should have the appetite for the sort of debate where the discussants deliberately strive to mis-understand one another on the most simple terms and definitions. . . "

I have said repeatedly that the theological discourse on the existence of God cannot be contingent on attributes such as "goodness", etc. This is because the discussion is fundamentally a debate as to how this universe/ reality in which we live came to exist. As such it is a debate about causality, and what caused this universe to be. Whether that thing is good or bad or neutral has no bearing on its existence. - That is to say, its goodness or badness has no bearing on whether such an eternal first cause actually exists or not. That only has a bearing on its further ontological attributes and does not serve to render it existent or non-existent. What will address that is the core arguments on eternity and causality, and not any petty-fogging about whether it is good or merciful or a trinity, or omni-this or omni-that.

As such I will never respect the atheistic position whose only refrain is to ask forever - "define God" or to implore forever "why did allah do this" or "Yahweh is bloodthirsty." I could not give a hoot about these. I will only respect the position that thoughfully engages the core questions of eternity and causality which are at the philosophical and scientific bottom of the core discussion.

Idehn: Your teleological argument just does not give any clear,meaningful, and coherent definition for God. Without such a definition, it is pointless to talk about God this and God that.

Lol, when will you tire of saying this. This remains your constant refrain whenever God is discussed. You keep repeating that there is no definition and as such, no discussion can hold. Magnifient escapism if you ask me. Enjoy it if it makes you feel dandy.

No serious discussant can claim that there exists no general idea of what the word "God" refers to in Theological Discourses

I guess this will be the next word you will assist us to delete from human language, seeing as it has no definition - not even in dictionaries!

Martian: lol. so your god decided not to put a trademark on his universe?

Either that, or you willfully refuse to see the giant trademarks hanging everywhere!

^^^ Aside from that you had better hide/ or delete yoor OP before a poster called Martian sees its, because when that happens then you are truly done for and in hot soup.

I saw again documentaries where people believed in the nobility of their racially-segregationist causes. This is my fear and concern. More on this later.

Deep Sight: ^^^^ Its simple ol boy. Just address those things that I listed and show me where they have scientifically defined properties of matter.

Mind you - the things themselves - and not that which we use to perceive them.

Otherwise tell me they dont exist at all.

Wrap your head around that and revert to me.

Where is the Martian on Nairaland? Come and answer me this simple question please.

[quote author=tpia@]and now, as it turns out, Ahmadu Bello University has never had a name change since its inception in 1962.

eyin yi ma go o.

gbogbo yin ti go ju. [/quote]SO WHAT? Does this mean that name changes do not occur? Or that name changes are wrong? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Xsolutions: The name Unilag has bcome a brand associated with one of d best quality education even within our nations poor education standards,d name has bcome a landmark.
If GEJ wanted to honour late MKO,1st of declare june 12 as the true Democratic day instead of May 29 and then he can name one of d newly commissioned universities after MKO.
WHY WUD SOMEONE WANT TO CHANGE THE CAR NAME FERRARI TO SOMETHING ELSE?
Dis is not a matter of whether Goverment has d right or not,ITS ABOUT D NAME UNILAG AND WHAT IT REPRESENTS...

Many notable universities have had their names changed before so quit right there.

[quote author=tpia@]says who?

the fact that they renamed some universities doesnt mean there's a hard and fast rule that they should rename ALL universities.

if that's the plan then they should just change the names of[b] all [/b]the universities at one go, and get it over with.

and while doing that, they should free up the former names for other private institutions who have an interest in the name, to take over for their own universities.[/quote]Nobody ever said there is any hard and fast rule so quit the chit chat. My point is that it has precedent and as such we cannot say that renaming a university after a national icon is wrong. Simple, dear.

yd849ja: He is the president of Nigeria and not the visitor of the university of Lagos, get your facts straight even a visitor still needs to consult the governing council to take such an action. In this case I doubt our slowpoke has considered that even before going forward with this uncouth action.

Let me say that I am not discussing the legality of the action. Unilag was established by an Act of parliament in 1962 and as such that act probably neeeds to be amended before such a name change can take effect. Probably the National Assembly will be assailed with protests and lord knows whether they may even pass it. My point is that the decision of itself is grand, it's excellent and most apt and deserving. Anyone with a sense of History should know this. I suspect a lot of UNILAG alumni are upset cos MAULAG doesnt quite sound with the same swagger that UNILAG does. I graduated from UNILAG 12 years ago and yes, I prefer the name UNILAG, but I am more keen to see MKO properly honoured and this is an excellent step in that direction.

yd849ja: I won't condescending into abusing you but rather educate you. Naming Universty of Lagos after MKO to me belittles the status of the man Abiola. Immortalising Abiola to me is long overdue but not in this way and manner. UNILAG is an icon on its own why give us another icon and then take the already established one. NO! This his action I see as a political gift to appease the SW and an insult to our collective intelligence as Yorubas. Why name a University in the SW after Abiola why not something more of national awareness in Abuja or somewhere else in other parts of the country. Why not a monumental statue like Lincoln memorial in DC erected in Abuja. Having him on our currency like you said. Come on this man is only trying to score a cheap point in the SW with us and we are no fools!

I agree with you that there may be some political objective involved: nevertheless it is an apt honour LONG overdue and I 100% support it.

Apologies I called you an olodo, that was because you said the President is not the Visitor of Unilag.

yd849ja: He is the president of Nigeria and not the visitor of the university of Lagos, get your facts straight even a visitor still needs to consult the governing council to take such an action. In this case I doubt our slowpoke has considered that even before going forward with this uncouth action.

Olodo. Please go get an education before I bother with you.

O, try googling the words "Visitor" "University". . .

PeterKbaba: I WONDER HOW A RETARDED PRESIDENT WILL CHANGE A UNIVERSITY THAT AS HER NAME BRANDED UNILAG.. THE NAME UNILAG IS ALREADY AN HOUSE OLD BRAND ALL OVER AFRICA AND BEYOND... NIGERIANS OPEN YOUR EYES, JONATHAN IS NOT IN CHARGE OF THIS COUNTRY.. HE'S BEEN CONTROLLED BY THE RETIRED MILITARY'S.

Oh really? The same retired military that annulled June 12 abi? So its teh military that want UNILAG'S name changed abi? Olodo.

yd849ja: This only goes to show how unintelligent the likes of Rueben Abati, Pius and co. really are. These are supposedly his advicers. It's a shame this nation has finally gone to the dogs. How unearth would they have allowed him to make this blunder. Institutions of higher learning are not political toys that you switch their names as you so desire. They are status of heritage and they are historically positioned to tell us how far we have come development wise. No idiot there toys around with Oxford, Cambridge, Havard, etc. More so GEJ you are not a military president that you can unilaterally make such decision. You require nation wide consultation for such move. I therefore call on the National assembly to reverse this silly mistake. Can someone tell Jonathan Goodluck that University of Lagos was established by an act of Parliament in 1962 and the name can only be change through an amendment to that act. I think this president is being chased by the shadow of military mentality. Let us challenge this act of illegality in the court of law.

[b]Today is Democracy Day. A day on which Nigeria celebrates its hard won democracy. That democracy owes alot to the struggles of a lot of Nigerians - especially the late Aare Ona Kakanfo, Moshood Kashimao Olawale Abiola, businessman, philanthopist, politician, and ultimately, democratic matyr. Accordingly, honouring MKO on this day, is most apt, and any Nigerian with a sense of history should appreciate the honour done.

The fact is that the Federal Government (especially under Obasanjo) has not done anything to immortalize MKO since the advent of the democracy for which the man was killed, and I have been itching to see a major honour done for this man. This is good, but it must not stop here: we must have a naira note with his image on it, and certainly also a major international airport renamed after him. These are the minimum that a matyr of that disticntion deserves.

The problem is that Nigerians do not know how to give honour where it is due. If this institution had been renamed after one of the founding fathers, the furore would not have been much. People need to realize that June 12 was the greatest injustice ever done politically in this country and that that incident compelled the military to eventually re-institute civil rule. That is as major as it gets in the life of a nation.

Y'all are bloo.dy hypocrites. You don't deserve a democracy. You deserve slavery and jackboots and the whip.

Unappreciative clots![/b]

rakaasta: I dont understand some people at all. We r in a democratic system of govt. hw will u wake up 2 change a name of school without f.f d due process haba!!I tot he his a professor.When he came 2 lagos n went into closed doors wit tinubu and akiolu i knew he was up 2 somethg. God is in control o. Atlst d school council needs to b aware bt he as gone 2meet those he feels r important in lagos. These man as gone gaga let us wait 4 wat Rueben Abati as 2 say abt dis again. Anyway maulag students sorry o.No gree o

The President is the VISITOR of the University of Lagos. From the way you write though, I doubt you will understand what that role infers.

logicboy: Why dont you like me deepsight? Why?

Not so, my brother. I just believe you need to divorce the obvious absurdity of religion from the pure philosophical precepts of the existence or non-existence of God. This should not be contingent on how absurd any religion is.

^^^^ Its simple ol boy. Just address those things that I listed and show me where they have scientifically defined properties of matter.

Mind you - the things themselves - and not that which we use to perceive them.

Otherwise tell me they dont exist at all.

Wrap your head around that and revert to me.

Martian: Yeah right!! once you think up more crap, you will revisit the thread.

^^^ This guy you really have a bad opinion of me o. Life no hard like that na?

Martian: Lol, just because you're a superstitious person who thinks miracles exist doesn't mean I am. So i will joke about it and your silly rhetoric.

Maybe miracles involve "non physical things".

As I recall it, you asked me for examples and it appeared that you acceded that some of those things I mentioned are indeed non-physical.

Will you deny this?

Besides, was there anything "miraculous" about the things I mentioned?

plaetton: But is there anything that is properly understood through religion. If everything was ideal, then there would be no need for debates on this forum. Everything about religion is controversial. Just read all the posts on this forum. the religious people are even confused about which versions or translations of their revealed truth is truly true . It leaves room for a lot of caricature. Those of us that are free just have to enjoy our laughs.

Martian: Oooohhh, what's the "truly sublime"........

Prayer, properly understood, is.........placebo for superstitious people. That's sublime.

Okay o.

Martian: Lmao, he wants plaetton to view prayer the same way he does, and if plaetton doesn't, then it's "utter nonsense"..............you know, the usual.

Hey guys, all I mean is that we should not seize nonsensical religious notions and thereby attempt to use such to discredit the truly sublime.

Prayer, properly understood, is sublime.

^^^^ Ride on. Jokes will get you everywhere. . . . . .

plaetton: You are perhaps mistaking prayer with things like meditation. They are quite distinct.
Meditation requires silence and concentration. It requires that the body and the mind be at rest. It is an attempt at communion with a transcendal mind, force or energy. The goal is union with the divine if just for a fraction of a second. It is not a petition and nothing is asked or expected.

This is prayer. In the sense we speak of.

The shouting you speak of, is just that - shouting.

plaetton: Have you been to a church lately! Pls do. You speak lke some who is out of touch. Your lofty ideals(which I admire) has put you out of touch with what goes on around you.

My dear, I have been. I see all the nonsensical ideas of prayer. That does nothing to dissaude me from that which I believe prayer to be. Indeed, the atheist who seizes upon such as a ground on which to make any cognate declarations is not yet reflective in his thinking - in the same way as I always say that the atheist who seizes upon the frailties of religious thought to ground his atheism is not yet philosophically grounded. Theism or Atheism, must stand on strong philosophical and scientific perspectives - and not on the ridiculous notions of any myth or religion. Neither.

Oh, by the by -

https://www.nairaland.com/652247/dilemma-praying-deist

logicboy: Ode, I saw what you wrote the first time. "poverty stricken idea" makes no difference unless you are trying to say "poor idea"

This is just illiteracy. I sign off you. Enjoy your adolescence.

And what makes it so!

This -

plaetton: Bless me, heal me,protect me, give me strenght, give me this, grant me that. That is prayer.

This is a caricature of that which prayer in the sense referred to, refers to.

In fact, it discloses a poverty-stricken idea of inward communication on the part of anyone who asserts prayer to be so!

Kay 17: No, it has. Theism commonly expressed as religion; is not just a ritual but also a source of knowledge, its worth and validity are therefrom.

Atheists tend to accept more natural explanation. So a controversial subject like evolution is the difference btw both.

Nonsense.

logicboy: Huh? Poverty is poverty. When someone says "poverty-stricken" we know it means without money and means to survive on ones own.

Huh? ? ? ? ?

Olodo.

Please read again and take note of the bolded.

Deep Sight: If you believe that prayer is merely "asking God to change fortunes" then I regret to say you have a poverty-stricken idea of what that word refers to in terms of a communication with God.

Olodo.

^^^ Oh yes it was. Or else he has a hopelessly shallow conception of the word "prayer."

^^^ Its very simple. The existence of exemptions do not obviate the existence of rules - from which such exemptions derive.

If there were no rules, there would be no exemptions.

As such, the exemptions themselves are evidence that there was in the first place a rule to be exempted from.

I make this statement based on the posts above. It is a rational reaction based on the premises above and not representative of my view on the church/ state issue.

Martian: I like my example better, so you can shove your opinion up your a$$. If a miracle occurs, it would involve a singing unicorn, a vagin@ and the oneness of infinity.

Your example is id.iotic. I expected you to laugh it off as a joke. If you present it seriously as that which is expected of a miracle, then you are most unserious. Not to mention hollow-minded.