₦airaland Forum

@ Jayriginal.

Welcome. I could scarcely wait. Hope your endeavours were productive.

Now let me ask you just one question -

Does it not stand to reason that any person questioning a default position/ suggesting anything contrary to a default or commonly observed position - should be the person required to adduce reasons for such questions - notwithstanding that the default position may or may not be wrong?

Agree?

Edit: As in: if we were to say, "As far as we know, water consists of hydrogen and oxygen" - if any person will state to us: "That is only as far as you know. The earth was once thought to be flat, and so what you know about water today may be proven wrong tomorrow" - THEN -

1. The mere fact that previous knowledge has been proven wrong in the past cannot by itself alone debunk current knowledge and -

2. The person alleging that we cannot be sure about the composition of water - or as you say - the person stating that we are making assumptions on the composition of water - will have to show reasons why he advances such a question.

Do you agree with this?

Who has the burden to prove the composition of water? He who states that which is currently commonly observed - that it consists of hydrogen and oxygen - or he who declares such to be an assumption or statement from ignorance which may be proven wrong tomorrow?

I have seen what you wrote, but I think we need to get past these basic principles before I properly respond, if any need there be, after this.

gidiMonsta: The CBN has a board of directors that approve things like this. If it was unconstitutional why haven't they come out to say something?

For those of you saying its unconstitutional, I'll like you to quote a part of the Nigerian constitution that stops parastatals from performing CSRs.

The CBN has no authourity whatsoever to do this. It is unlawful, unconstitutional, irresponsible, and amounts to setting up an anarchic parallel government. Please review the position of the law here -

https://www.nairaland.com/892617/response-funke-aboyades-defence-sanusis

^^^ Whats with the rage? I only placed the word "son" in quote marks because you previously misconstrued that word and I previously clarified.

You need to calm down.

Martian: Of course atheism is irrational in your view. Someone saying Zeus, Jesus and Perseus are myths is irrational

Declaring Jesus a myth is not atheism.

And you are well aware of the broad argument of a pre existent cause which I refer to and THAT is exactly what I refer to in that any person denying or contesting such is being tiresomely irrational.

Not Jesus, Perseus or Zeus. Or any other name for that matter.

so smarten up "son."

BUT, if someone says something about ancient aliens, souls traveling between planets, holy grail, and other spiritual mumbo jumbo, you lap it up like a thirsty pug.

Obviously you are not concentrating. Ancient aliens have nothing to do with "spiritual mumbo jumbo". Its an intriguing question which I erroneously thought I could discuss with you. I see I only ended up giving the village bully his favourite eternal sing-song of mockery. Enjoy.

I bet if Scientology came to Nigeria, you would embrace it and think it's, "Brilliant"!!

Lol, probably Buddhism had to "come to Nigeria" for us to know about it bah?

Mtscheeew.

Matter by itself could NEVER conjure consciousness.

^ Let me answer that last question for him. But my own perspective.

The answer is Yes.

^^^ Ok. You gat a point there.

All the same, atheism is quite irrational in my view.

^^^ Long time Pastor.

Personally, I accept the Idea of purgatory - though I wouldn't use that word. The same way as I accept the ideas of heaven and hell even though I wouldnt use those words. Heaven could be the next realm that a soul experiences so long as such a realm/ world is better or closer to the eternal light than the last world such a soul experienced. Same with Hell. Hell would be the next realm/ world/ experience of the soul so long as such is worse or further from the light than the present experience.

As such, this Earth life is already heaven for many souls and hell for many souls. It is Purgatory as well, for many.

Purgatory would be any world - so long as the soul is going through a purgation of its karmaic burden.

However in the Roman Catholic definition, I want to know if the soul retains its freewill in such a state.

For me, freewill is an intrinsic quality of the Human Spirit that is never lost.

^^^ Is the bible the end of the world? ? ? ? ? ? ?

@ harakiri -

^^^ Its very lazy to conflate arguments for the existence of God with arguments about the implausibility of the Judeo-Christian God.

^^^ How do you know this sir?

I found this brilliant post made by someone on the physics forum i highlighted above -

I would argue that we are some misguided by thinking that uncaused effects exist, although some quantum mechanical events, look like it.

The argument is as follows: if uncaused effects could exist, then there would neither be any causes for them to not exist. If we would at some place, and at some time, and under some conditions see effects without causes, we would need to see them also at different place, time and under different conditions, because (as we defined) there is nothing that determines an uncaused effect to occur at any place, any time and any condition.
If however there is a tendency for effects (which we described as "uncaused" ) to occur at this place, but not that place, or this moment, but not that moment, or under this condition, but not that condition, then it seems that the "uncaused" effect is determined by something, which is contradictionary, since uncaused effects can not be determined by anything.

But if that were the case, we might ask how it could be that caused effects could exist, because uncaused effects would occur all the time, at all places and under all circumstances, UNLESS this IS determined by something. However BY DEFINITION uncaused effects are not determined by anything.

This means that either there exists caused effects and all effects are causal, or everything is uncausal. That would however mean that everything is undeterminable, it would be a world which we could not have knowledge about.

This reasoning does not forbid there to be quantum fluctuations I guess, since this is a very limited effect, for example a small life time for particle/anti-article pair, there is appearantly a limited amount (determined by the Heizenberg uncertainty relationship) of "free" energy, which on average is zero.

Uncaused effects, if they could exist, would have much weirder properties, for example uncaused particles (without the accompanying anti-particle) and massive violations of energy/mass conservation and quantum number.

So I guess, there are determinations for those effects, therefore they are not uncaused.

There was an interesting discussion on this forum -

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=152325

There have been many attempts by physcists to negate the fundamental idea of causality on which one of the strongest arguments for the existence of God is hinged. It has been proposed that contrary to our common every-day observation, things may actually emerge uncaused out of nothingness. Although this idea is at odds with that which we observe everyday, some physists have argued that the following are examples of uncaused things/ processes which occur out of nothing -

1. Virtual particles in a quantum vacuum

2. Radioactive decay

3. Proton decay

I have discussed (1) above extensively on this forum and I am certain that it has been entirely debunked. In no way do virtual particles emerge "from nothing" - for the simple reason that the quantum vacuums referred to have been proven not to be perfect vacuums and in fact contain low gaseous pressure. And as such the argument that virtual particles emerge from nothing is absolutely false and mis-footed.

Now, I have not read all that much on (2) and (3) above and I would like those who propound or advance the "something from nothing" possibility to discuss (2) and (3) and let's see if they stand to reason.

From the little I read on Radio active decay, maybe I am daft o, but I cannot see how it in anyway presupposes anything uncaused or something from nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay#Half-life

Over to you, my Ogas.

^ ^ ^ I dont know what cgift meant by the question, but what tickles my mind is the freewill issue. Is freewill retained in purgatory - any kind of freewill whatsoever? Is freewill retained in "heaven"?

^ ^ ^ Can we address the question of choice and freewill cgift raised concerning purgatory.

benodic: @ deepsight

i had a lot of friends who were members and we used to have discussions about the whole grail message. after the reading the volume one, i ran into the ECK teachings and found what i was looking for. so since then i never really bothered so much with reading the remaining volumes. because any spiritual truth i want to have an understanding about i just tune in and ask and i get answers. so i stop bothering with reading so much books. may be later who knows i might try and read the remaining volumes.

I would like you to urgently read the Message - all of it - before coming to a conclusion.

The first cause of all life is the Almighty God which we know as the Sugmad. from the Sugmad issues forth the second cause which is God in expression which is known as the Holy Spirit or the ECK. the Holy Spirit is the essence of God which permeates all life and in it we live, move and have our being. the Holy Spirit can be seen as a Light and heard as a Sound. which was what happened during the Pentecost as reported in the Holy Bible. The Light and Sound now comes together in a matrix that souls can easily relate to and that is The Mahanta. The Mahanta is the Holy Spirit in form and it is a state of consciousness whose duty is to take Ready, matured souls back to the Sugmad.

now a Soul who has undergone spiritual purification, growth and maturity and has the highest amount of love for all life is now chosen by the Sugmad to become a Channel for the Mahanta Consciousness, to serve as the form that souls can easily relate to in their journey back to God. This soul becomes the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. as the Living ECK Master, he teaches you in the outer and gives you spiritual exercises that links you up with the Holy spirit. and in the Inner he is also there as the Mahanta in a form that you can easily relate to, to further guide you in your journey back home to God if you need any help or guidance.

Are you sure this is not another attempt at deification of human spiritual leaders into God or gods? I instinctively recoil from any movement that I see attempting such. Indeed, I can tell you that the claims made about the identity of the writer of the Grail Message are the only reasons I stopped short of actually becoming a cross bearer.

Just how many people are we to accept as being divine manifestations of God? Your Living Eck Master/ Abd Ru Shin/ Jesus/ Guru Maharaji/ Olumba Olumba Obu +1000 others?

so He is always there as a spiritual adviser and does not force himself or ECK teachings on any soul except for those who request for it. and mind you He is not God. as no one can become God but we can become God-like expressing all the qualities of God and that is why God sent us down here to become matured souls.

You say he is not God, but he is the embodiment and channel of the mahanta consciousness from the sugmad. If that is not God, that is pretty close as one can get to being called a physical manifestation of God itself.

The Almighty God which we know as the Sugmad, is formless and unknowable.

This strongly resonates with me.

The HU is a universal name of God. it is the only name of God that does not belong to any language, religion or tribe. Eckankar does not lay claim to the HU. It is a prayer song that God has given to all souls to use in finding its way back to It. the power of the HU is in the vibration that it raises as you sing it with love for God. it starts a process of spiritual purification in you and opens your spiritual eyes to be able to see the light of God and opens your spiritual ears to hear the sound of God and the still small voice that is always there telling you how to live your life aright. It is sung in a long drawn out way with the out going breath: HUUUUUUU. sing it like that for 15 to 20 minutes at a sitting in the night and in the morning and watch your experiences.

Does this serve as a prayer, or connects the soul to the essence of God in creation?

When doing this, should one have meditation in mind, or can one project one's personal desires into the sound and acheive results therein? What kind of results are expected.

There are lots of benefits one gets from soul travel

Are you saying there are no people who have become mentally unstable as a result? None?

Dereformer: ^^^ are you saying that our increasing population means we are depleting the population of other planets.

Yes: but this is not an issue because at all events there is an eternal stream of new souls issuing forth from the eternal source itself.

What you know is science; what you don't know is God.

Pleasse dont make assumptions.

This discussion is about re-incarnation - not science - and certainly not a debate on the existence of God.

usisky: ^Deep Deep Deep.
no questioning the fact that you are a smart individual. The question that still persists is: where is the evidence? At best, what the natural world around us provides us with is an evidence of an intelligence behind its creation, but not the evidence of the creator(s) itself-no more than that. Do you by any means have even an ounce of proof that such a spirit realm is possible? I ask in good faith.

I am pleased that you have referred to the natural world disclosing evidence of intelligence. It is indeed all about us. It is multi-layered, and staggeringly grand.

Now about the spirit realm, you know that even that which we observe in the world of matter shows transition of forms and not destruction. Things are not destroyed: they merely change form. Given that understanding, it stands to reason that the intangible consciousness of man also changes form at death: and is not destroyed. In whatever form it exists: that may not be matter, but being intangible in its essence: is what is thus called the spiritual.

Kay 17: @deepsight

If such a "world" has had such an influence in our world, such as creation and the regular deux et machina, if its a world of order like ours, I think its reality will be impressable, imprintable in our minds and senses.

And it is. You experience it every second of everyday in the nature of consciousness that you have. It rests evident in the formless precursor of the matter that we understand to be finite. It is also implicit in the concept of eternity.

However I have learned that the man that will not see, will not see.

^^^ Actually men are indeed of a spiritual nature but merely carry a physical cloak. Secondly, physical evidence exists in every single thing around us: but the eyes that will not see, will never see.

^ Think about what you are saying. What type of "evidence" are you demanding? Physical evidence of spiritual realms? Do you think that is logical?

^^^ Because souls are reincarnating across and between many different planets and worlds.

There is no forgiveness anywhere. Whatever you sow, you reap, simple.

^^^ Thanks Benodic.

1. Why don't you try reading the entire Grail Message before arriving at your conclusion? You did mention that you only read volume one?

2. What does it mean when you refer to a living Eck Master guiding the outer and particularly - the inner life - as "Mahanta"?. I will be deeply concerned at the idea of any human being who becomes my "inner master". Maybe I am not understanding it right and you can explain it better to me. In my mind, it is as simple as saying that my only inner master should be God itself - or my conscience.

O, and perhaps one's wife. Women are always masters. ^^^

3. The Grail message does not really teach that humans are a spark of God although I believe that its teaching in this regard is slightly confused. It teaches that there is nothing divine whatsoever in human beings - that humans are an entirely different species from the divine. All the same it accedes that all life comes from God. I beleieve there is a contradiction here. Although I hate to say it, it sometimes seems to me that the Grail Messages' vehement insistence that there is no spark of the divine in humans is at odds with the fact that the writer of the Grail Massage is said to have divinity within him! In my opinion, this is how cult reverence is created.

Now, my fear is that the idea of this Living Eck Master as an inner master could lead to a similar cult-like reverence.

4. What is the idea of God in Eckankar? Is it a pantheistic view.

5. What really is the "Hu" power all about?

6. Do you not think that soul travel could distort one's reality and perception of time. Do you not also think it could render some people mentally unstable?

Thanks.

Tomorrow is April 1.

I am waiting.

^ ^ ^ Brilliant, benodic!

Might I ask if you are familiar with the Grail Message?

Are there any significant differences in its teachings and the teachings of Eckankar?

Where is Jayriginal? I cannot wait for April. Come back here and untie the knots you left hanging all over the place.

But let me just comment on this -

I wrote -

So its very simple and clear: the burden rests squarely with you. Do not shirk it. That would be cowardly, and might I add, unlawyerly!

And you said -

There ! You had to bring the profession into this. If I respond in like manner you will play the victim. I will be the bigger man here and let it slide. I have respect for the profession and for that reason I have sought in my own way (right or wrong) to correct you. I will ignore this for now.

I just read these above again. I want to assure you that there was no insult or denigration there: if you read the context you will see that by "unlawyerly" I was not referring to any ethics but simply to the general fact that it behoves a lawyer to argue his points and discharge his burden of proof. That's sincerely all I meant there bro.

thehomer: No, atheism is non-belief in Gods.

Which is, of course, ignorance.

^ ^ ^ What about Adam? Was he the son of God or not?

I think you should either stop making posts on this thread, or choose to make serious posts. There is no need to become the village clown, my dear friend.

As you know, we have dropped the issue, so just leave it.

@ OP,

Just take care to realize that recognizing the falsehood of religion is not the same thing as saying that a creator does not exist. I abandoned religion many years ago for similar reasons, but I do recognize that a creator must exist - whatever it might be. And wondrous are its creations. . . . poignant, its seeds.