₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
TV01 is one of the better ones, unfortunately when you have to defend something as "wierd" as Christianity you are going to sound insane.

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Claiming that inventions only exist in cultures with a Judeo Christian background is as bad a case as I have ever come across.

Altar no do, you still hammer for poultry farm? Disturbing chickens with vulgarity? Haba, pastor.

LordReed:
First move by whom?

The Portuguese didn't want slavery to end in Japan so I dunno what you mean by Western influence.

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The chap lives in an alternate universe.

He reminds me of the saying that it's better to remain silent and let people think you are a fool than to say something and confirm it.

Because I actually thought this one had something in his head before I became acquainted with his delusions.

TV01:
Christianity first moved to abolish slavery in the 11th century.

Slavery was finally abolished in Japan under Western influence as it modernised. Formally in the 19th century and fully suppressed in the 20th.

There is nothing outside the JC truth as a basis for sustained, enduring and flourishing nations. Second best is to mimic it as Japan has done - aided somewhat by it's ethnic and cultural homogeneity. Now starting to fail.

Outside that nada, nothing, nowhere - as demonstrated by Nigeria' abject failure and South Africa's spiralling backwards after one generation of emancipation from apartheid. Even the post-Christian West is starting to fall apart.

No Christ, no nation, no nothing. His kingdom come.

Keep up .


TV

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I suppose Egypt didn't flourish. Babylon didn't flourish. Assyria never flourished. Persia didn't flourish. Parthia never flourished. China never flourished. Greece never flourished. Rome didn't flourish. Aztec Empire didn't flourish.

None of these nations / empires flourished before or without Judeo Christian teachings.

Oh, I provided one hundred Inventions by cultures outside Judeo Christianity in response to your claim that no inventions exist outside Judeo Christianity. Silence on them, just the same silence as with the verses on slavery. Your satanic verses.

Brother, you should consider medical attention.

TV01:
Beams
Nothing can add it .

If The Son sets you free, you are free indeed.


TV

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What level of delusion is this? Hahahahahahahahahahahahha! Pity!
Live with it bro. Denial dont change it.

TV01:
It's called consistency boyo - try it .

The fact that slavery is mentioned, doesn't mean that slavery is endorsed. In fact the Bible is the most anti-slavery book every - the whole message is about setting human beings free.

I appreciate your need to see slavery in order too underpin your worldview. Evidenced by your refusal to answer any questions or admit your own incorrect biblical exegesis from the very first time I posted a response to this.
https://www.nairaland.com/4508641/american-politics-thread-trump-47th/5556#137573719


Come, why did the gods of your people, of iron, of thunder of smallpox, not deliver you from slavery and help you invent better gadgets .

He who The Son sets free is free indeed .


TV

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Yawn.

nothing can remove it.

TV01:
I'll afford you the benefit f the doubt this last time. Please read carefully and slowly - several times if required .

No one claimed inventions should spontaneously arise out of what ever anyone considers to be holy text.

The position is that it is the truth of the JC culture that creates the milieu as described in my last post - which has been hidden. To paraphrase below,.

"Only the JC ethos creates the sustainable culture which can deliver full-suite human rights, individual freedoms and civil liberties. Which at once guarantee individual pursuits and free association, formsng the basis for open trade, guilds and capital markets, which drive, innovation, research, scientific inquiry and technological advancement, as well as progressive social welfare programs".

Likewise your mate DeepSight continues to insist that Christianity advocates slavery, and continues to argue that against himself, when the position is the Christian scriptures do not preach slavery. Not that some people who claim to be Christians have not used the bible to justify slavery - no one ever claimed that.

Pay attention sir .


TV

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Repeating yourself a thousand times will not remove the clear slavery endorsing verses from the Bible.

I don't need to shout. It's written there in black and white and nothing can remove it.

bemeruca:
Yes it is reasonable to have 3m votes and still lose. Before Trump it happened 4 times. Hillary has access to the collage as well. It is not madness, it makes perfect sense.

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It makes nonsense of the purpose of elections. It also makes nonsense of the meaning of a democracy. But I have learnt a lot about you and your ilk, so worever.

The US is a constitutional federal Republic not a democracy

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The US is not a democracy? Gotcha.

bemeruca:
How is it a minority victory, in each state, you have to win the majority.

The states come together as a union to decide not a single state.

But tell us your alternative

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There is the possibility that the person with the higher popular votes has less electoral college votes as happened for example between Hilary and Trump.

Do you think it is reasonable that one person should have three million more votes than the other candidate and still be declared the loser? That is madness.

There are alternatives to ensure a spread. Look at the Nigerian option for example. The winner must win at least twenty five percent in two thirds of the states. That ensures the winner is always a person with a national spread.

SmartPolician:
It's a good thing that they gave him a warm reception, but it's obvious that why Tinubu hardly organises press briefing is that he has nothing reasonable to say. Whenever he opens his mouth in public, he says nonsense

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Also he is so damn corrupt that he cannot face serious press questioning.

bemeruca:
Imagine states like New York and California deciding our president.

The electoral collage applies to all so it's fair.
The US is a federal union. The system is designed to balance population power with state based representation.

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There are other ways to balance things out. Any method which allows a minority victory is simply not democracy. Democracy is majority victory with minority rights. Minority victory turns everything on its head.

themanderon:
Let's go back to first principle and ask why should a president be allowed to appoint an iNec chairman to hold an election he will participate in?
It's like a student being asked to nominate his best friend to invigilate him in an exam.
Such should not be allowed in a corrupt cesspit like ours.
That was how Yakubu was wearing Asiwajus cap at a function.
It's time for the opposition to get serious.

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GBAM. This is the core and Koko of the matter. It's madness to allow the president to appoint the umpire for elections. Sheer madness.

IjeBos:
That's if you trust the numbers.
I watched some of the scenes from that election and I would have 0 confidence in those numbers.
Fraud seemed to be rampant. Was confused how anyone was allowed to get close enough to a ballot box to steal it.
But that is my limited view from the US.
Incidentally, I'm generally in Naij over Xmas/New Year. This year, debating how close to the election I should stay before I take off.



The electoral college is a remnant of a slavery past. It was part of the 3/5s compromise created to appease slave owning states. It gave them dipropionate power because of the slaves they owned but that couldn't vote.

You can't have the senate and the President both elected by indirect representation. One has to be through direct representation so that the minority doesn't end up ruling the majority. I would be fine with the senate being 2 seats per state if the Presidency is elected via a popular vote.



The issue is that the majority doesn't vote for the President. A lot of democratic voters don't in fact vote because Democrat states go so Democratic, people feel their votes are inconsequential because Dems will win the electoral college vote anyhow.
And now because the minority party controls the white house, Supreme court and Congress, they can allow things like political gerrymandering which makes it even less democratic and more controlled by the minority party.

The US is in a crisis moment and I'm sure even our most Stallworth global allies have lost patience at what Trump's reelection meant for and about the US.

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The Electoral College System is not a fair system. The very fact that it holds the possibility for the party with less popular votes to win the election is an absurdity.

cococandy:
Such an imbecilic post.

Thank to immigration the U.S. economy has grown substantially in absolute terms from roughly $542 billion in 1960 to over $29 trillion in 2024

In 1960 we didn't have the unrivaled tech giants, the biotech leadership, the medical innovation and what not. Immigrants prop up americas health care system and tech industry (at the minimum)

Why do these racists want to go back to an era of mediocrity so badly?

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I keep wondering how many of them know for example that Steve Jobs was Syrian.

basilico:
The pope you mean? The pope is not the Bible. I don't know many areas that the Pope's blocked.

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Really?

- - - - - -- -
1. The Immobility of the Earth
The most famous conflicts, such as the Galileo Affair, centered on the idea that the Earth moves. Critics used several "proofs" from the Old Testament to argue that the Earth is fixed in place.

Psalm 104:5

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."
This was perhaps the most cited verse against Nicolaus Copernicus and Galileo Galilei. If the Bible says the Earth cannot be moved, the heliocentric theory (Earth revolving around the Sun) was viewed as a direct contradiction of divine revelation.

Psalm 93:1

"...The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved."
Similar to Psalm 104, this was used to provide a physical "fact" about the stability of the globe.

1 Chronicles 16:30

"Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved."

2. The Motion of the Sun
To the observers of the time, the Sun appeared to "rise" and "set." Scientific theories suggesting it was the Earth moving instead were countered with verses describing the Sun’s movement.

Joshua 10:12–13

"On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: 'Sun, stand still over Gibeon...' The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day."
Martin Luther and other religious leaders famously argued that for Joshua to command the Sun to stand still, the Sun must have been the object in motion to begin with.

Ecclesiastes 1:5

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."
This verse was used to support the Ptolemaic system, which claimed the Sun orbited the Earth daily.

3. The Structure of the Heavens
The concept of "the firmament" was often used to push back against atmospheric or astronomical discoveries that suggested an infinite or vacuum-filled space.

Genesis 1:6–7

"And God said, 'Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.' ...God called the vault 'sky.'"
Early interpretations suggested a physical dome (the firmament) held back literal water. When astronomers began suggesting the heavens were fluid or empty space, it challenged the literalist view of a solid cosmic structure.

4. The Origin of Life and Humanity
With the publication of Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species in 1859, the focus shifted from physics to biology.

Genesis 1:26–27

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...'"
This was (and is) the primary verse used to deny Evolutionary Theory. The argument is that if humans share a common ancestor with primates, they cannot be uniquely created "in the image of God."

basilico:
He asked a stewpid question.

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TV01 asked the exact same question referring to Islam and you agreed with him.
How can you not see your own double standards.

As in!

This is mind bending!

Christians invented a lot of stuff without being hindered by the biblical teachings. Unlike Muslims who are forbidden to go into some areas.

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The exact reverse is also true - Muslims invented a lot of stuff and Christians were also forbidden some areas at a time.

I have learnt a lot about you in the last 48 hours and I thank the heavens for it. Its gonna save me loads of time and energy in future.

Gerhards:
I started paying attention to Nigeria politics from 2023 and I noticed they usually use those phrases in court mostly during political cases and I think they are doing it intentional to create confusion among the people, then carried out their evil corrupt judgment's .

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The courts are not honest.

For example we all knew the supreme court would delay its decision on the Rivers State State of Emergency until the six months elapsed. On top of that, they completely avoided addressing the central issue as to suspension of democratically elected officers.

basilico:
The Bible doesn't have prohibitions for dogma or studies that conflicts with it.

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Stop lying okay?

And why by the way do you ignore the repression of science and scientists by the church which is history?

basilico:
The bible is not a science journal.

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I feel like tearing my hair out. So you know this but then demand examples of inventions arising from Islamic study?

basilico:
If we talk colonialism, the west was after raw materials. The colonialists developed their territories including building railways that still stand today. After direct colonization, they embarked on neo colonization which is not 100% exploitation.

Muslim hordes on the other hand took the wealth, captured and sold slaves , took over the land , spread Islam by force and exacted heavy tolls on the conquered.

Would you rather live under Spanish or Portuguese conquerors or Muslim ?

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Enjoy.

basilico:
Indians invented the zero.

Indian mathematicians, such as Brahmagupta (around 628 CE), were the first to treat zero (shunya) as a number in its own right, not just a placeholder. They developed the rules for adding, subtracting, and multiplying with it.

2. The Preservation & Expansion (The Islamic World)In the 9th century, Persian and Arab scholars—most famously Al-Khwarizmi—studied these Indian texts.They adopted the Indian system because it was much more efficient than their own systems or the Roman ones.Al-Khwarizmi wrote a famous book explaining how to use these "Hindu numerals."

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Same point as in post above - many cultures invent the same things separately and originally. This is a known fact.

Besides I gave you a list of one hundred things. You can only weakly try to mention a few. Do you want me to increase the list to one thousand? Because as I said, what I extracted and posted for your benefit is only the tip of an ice berg.

basilico:
JC societies were not hell bent on expropriation of wealth others had created.

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That you can say this is dumbfounding . . . . . well not any more. You turn out just as bad a benalvino3 and the rest. Who can take this joke of a statement seriously in light of the history of colonialism and western empire in general. No one. Not a single literate person can take this statement without laughing himself to tears.

Romans knew about geometry and arithmetic.

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Again, one of your difficulties is a failure to understand that many inventions or ideas were thought of by different people in different cultures at different times without interaction, and sometimes even simultaneously (such as with the Theory of Evolution).

GloriousGbola:
https://mediapolicycenter.org/mpc_initiative/3-5ths-of-a-democracy-americas-original-sin/




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage

'Judeo Christian' values that only gave voting rights to land owning white men

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You are ever blessed sir.

basilico:
Hamas and Boko Haram are living Islam in exactly the way of the prophet and the early Caliphates.

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This discussion was about the golden age of Islam which no one says was at the time of the prophets or the earliest Caliphs.

Long and short,out of Islamic education ,you don't expect anything substantial.

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Except in the golden age of Islam which is the reference point for this discussion.

basilico:
Me and TV01 are stating that no worthwhile innovation can come out of a society whose core tenets are anti education.

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Unlike Isis/ Boko Haram, etc - in the golden age of Islam, Education was prized. So there is a difference.

Israel is a functioning society ,well established .If they plan to expand territory it will be out of security.

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This is tiresome. The map of the land they plan to seize is on the uniforms of the IDF.

GloriousGbola:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

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Bless you again.

TV01/basilico - note that the basis of much of today's western society - democracy - did not have a Judeo-Christian origin. It originated in a pre-Christian Greek setting.

In fact I dare add that democracy is at complete variance with Judeo-Christian systems of governance - a thing which we also see in GloriousGbola's last extract on the presumption of the Divine right of Kings.

GloriousGbola:
The divine right of kings, in European history, a political doctrine in defense of monarchical absolutism, which asserted that kings derived their authority from God and could not therefore be held accountable for their actions by any earthly authority such as a parliament. Originating in Europe, the divine-right theory can be traced to the medieval conception of God’s award of temporal power to the political ruler, paralleling the award of spiritual power to the church. By the 16th and 17th centuries, however, the new national monarchs were asserting their authority in matters of both church and state. King James I of England (reigned 1603–25) was the foremost exponent of the divine right of kings, but the doctrine virtually disappeared from English politics after the Glorious Revolution (1688–89). In the late 17th and 18th centuries, kings such as Louis XIV (1643–1715) of France continued to profit from the divine-right theory, even though many of them no longer had any truly religious belief in it. The American Revolution (1775–83), the French Revolution (1789), and the Napoleonic Wars deprived the doctrine of most of its remaining credibility.

The bishop Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet (1627–1704), one of the principal French theorists of divine right, asserted that the king’s person and authority were sacred; that his power was modeled on that of a father’s and was absolute, deriving from God; and that he was governed by reason (i.e., custom and precedent). In the middle of the 17th century, the English Royalist squire Sir Robert Filmer likewise held that the state was a family and that the king was a father, but he claimed, in an interpretation of Scripture, that Adam was the first king and that Charles I (reigned 1625–49) ruled England as Adam’s eldest heir. The anti-absolutist philosopher John Locke (1632–1704) wrote his First Treatise of Civil Government (1689) in order to refute such arguments

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Bless you.

Take note, TV01/basilico

basilico:
I added this map after you posted.
What innovation would you have expected from ISIS. This is how leadership in that Islam golden age aspired for.

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I also added to my post above clarifying that expansion is actually one of the catalysts of development -

DeepSight:
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This here is one of the problems you have. No society does the bold. History and development are the result of a massive interaction and fluid flow of ideas, innovations and developments which build one piece upon the other and from one society to another in one season after another through travel, trade, wars etc.

So both you and TV01 are wasting my time when you point out that very interaction and fluid flow as grounds to claim Muslims invented nothing.

As for the red, it is actually one of the catalysts for development.

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Nonetheless I am not sure it is fair for you to use ISIS as the benchmark.
You would make no mention of the Greater Israel Project would you, notwithstanding that its map is on the uniforms of the IDF and covers parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia?

basilico:
I'll refer to ISIS. Living Islam the way it's described in the hadeeths. Using walkie talkies , Twitter , Photoshop and every other modern invention .
What you think they would have invented. You can claim they were being bombed right left centre ,hence couldn't build a stable society. If the were not being attacked they had global expansions . Divides the world into wilayats ( provinces or districts) they intended to capture.

If the world had not ganged up against them, their efforts were geared towards conquering territory , implementing Sharia law. They were charging jizzya, a tax on mom Muslims living among them.

So when I say the Islamic system is retrogressive look no further than ISIS. Or Boko Haram. Nothing world changing can come out of them. Years later they would claim to have invented stuff like Artificial Intelligence . (Maybe for kamikaze drones)

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I have shouted myself hoarse on this thread and elsewhere that Islam is backward. This doesnt mean there was no time when Muslim nations were doing very well in scholarship and led the world in much forward thought and education, not least in medicine, mathematics and other sciences. That is what is referred to as the golden age of Islam and I have been particular that its not a matter of those developments leaping out of the Quran.

aswani:
Per the text in bold, I am also sure you now know the reason I worded what I said in the manner I did.

It was a summary of LLM's, not a deep dive or an attempt at one, based on what the poster I responded to said. You needed to put the whole conversation in context instead of just picking a sentence I wrote.

As it happens and to respond to a point you made previously, I think AI can be as useful and as useless as the person searching for information wants it to be. The Garbage in Garbage out factor still exists and, whilst Grok or whatever is now getting better with the addition of links to results when you do Internet searches, still high in my own personal opinion. Way too high!

I also wasn't specific on Grok in my posts as you are, I was referring to LLM's of which there are many variations.

My general point on the uselessness (or untrustworthyness) of "AI" can also be further butressed by the fact that there are currently digital images flying around all over the Internet. You can "generate" a picture of Super Eagles winning a world Cup or of Peter Obí voting for APC. Garbage in, garbage out as I said.

Finally, you are wrong in your inferring multiple results can't be produced when you ask questions of an LLM, very wrong actually. You can of course frame your question in a way that it produces one answer, produces a different answer to a slightly altered question and of course produces multiple answers.

I was hoping this post would be short and sweet as I know I might be wrong on a lot of things but not on this one, once again, in its proper context.

Anyway I shall now get off my soapbox as I am not even an expert on LLM'S.

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I actually agree with what you have written here. People can frame a question in a specific way to get a specific kind of result.

basilico:
Deepsight.
Tell me how an expansionist civilization will innovate stuff on its own.

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If you know this, why did you parrot and agree with that absurd statement of TV01 that only Judeo Christian societies invent things?

Tell me what innovation that society will bring . If an inventor has to check with Islamic teachings to validate his discovery what you expect?

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This sounds as though you dont know for how long scientific discoveries and breakthroughs were repressed and shut down because they didnt align with what the Church thought scripture taught. I mentioned Giordano Bruno and Galileo Galilei.

basilico:
Deepsight.
Tell me how an expansionist civilization will innovate stuff on its own.

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This here is one of the problems you have. No society does the bold. History and development are the result of a massive interaction and fluid flow of ideas, innovations and developments which build one piece upon the other and from one society to another in one season after another through travel, trade, wars etc.

So both you and TV01 are wasting my time when you point out that very interaction and fluid flow as grounds to claim Muslims invented nothing.

As for the red, it is actually one of the catalysts for development.