₦airaland Forum

bawomolo:
one leg in, one leg out. deepsight is the ultimate hustler

davidylan:
There is nothing like "ethics" when it comes to christianity.

davidylan:
Unfortunately for many of you noise makers . . . what i have achieved educationally so far is what you can only dream about.

noetic15:
what sort of nonsense is this? 

is Ghandi a peace maker? what do u understand by peace makers?

noetic15:
is Ghandi a peace maker?
in human language YES: based on his great revolutionary work in India.
but in bible terms NOPE.

noetic15:
u find it impossible to conceive in the container of your imagination that Ghandi would go to hell . .  . .but thats not mmy proposition but the word of God.

noetic15:
Jesus is the SON of God. . . .He is as such God.

noetic15:
There is no love outside of Christ.

noetic15:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to practise the teachings of Christ without acknowledging the divinity of Jesus.

KunleOshob:
That also depends on your definition of religion cause the way the bible defines religion is different from the way "christians" practise it, you might just be practising your own form of religion. Here is the biblical definition of religion which as been largely ignored by the 'church'

James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

ilosiwaju:
you just gotta love noetic, xtianity and jesus. the following paragraph is from Ann Bessant's Freethinkers' textbook.

The most remarkable thing in the evidences afforded by profane history is their extreme paucity; the very
existence of Jesus cannot be proved from contemporary documents. A child whose birth is heralded by a star
which guides foreign sages to Judæa; a massacre of all the infants of a town within the Roman Empire by
command of a subject king; a teacher who heals the leper, the blind, the deaf, the dumb, the lame, and who
raises the mouldering corpse; a King of the Jews entering Jerusalem in triumphal procession, without
opposition from the Roman legions of Cæsar; an accused ringleader of sedition arrested by his own
countrymen, and handed over to the imperial governor; a rebel adjudged to death by Roman law; a three
hours' darkness over all the land; an earthquake breaking open graves and rending the temple veil; a number
of ghosts wandering about Jerusalem; a crucified corpse rising again to life, and appearing to a crowd of
above 500 people; a man risen from the dead ascending bodily into heaven without any concealment, and in
the broad daylight, from a mountain near Jerusalem; all these marvellous events took place, we are told, and
yet they have left no ripple on the current of contemporary history.


something keeps telling me noetic knows and acknowledges most of deep sight's insights(pun intended) but you guys gotta give him some breathing space, i mean you dont expect him to agree with you(at least not publicly on nairaland) besides, thats what faith is all about.abi?

talking of morsels for noetic, i have a few ones:
1. A roman method of executing condemned criminals becomes the symbol of the world's largest religion. right? craze world!
2. Substitute the french guillotine for the roman crucifixion, churches should be filled with the killing devices hanging everywhere, imprinted on bibles, hanging on your neck as a pendant.
3. Double-header: if jesus had died of malaria for example, would his death still suffice for the salvation process? would it not be fair to have mosquitoes being framed in churches instead of the cross?

Chrisbenogor:
Yeah at least I know what to expect from david, you on the other hand will chow with the devil and drink wine with archangel Gabriel if you know what I mean

bawomolo:
lol this thread is comedy.

you guys better not chase alhaji shakerz away

Chrisbenogor:
I would rather have davidylan be the judge in my trail than deep sight, mostly always sugar on shit lol

noetic15:
what is this?

u are yet to make ANY analysis on your beliefs. . .and u dare accuse me of being dogmatic
have u ever seen urself in a mirror?

Deep Sight:
Thank you for bringing this subject up again Noetic. I am deply interested in it, as it gives me great concern to see the shocking perspective of many dogmatists (e.g: Davidylan) on this matter.

I think a reasonable platform for the commencement of the discussion is to address the strange term employed by Noetic - "Jesus Heaven".

What exactly does this mean? I can extrapolate a number of things from that bizzare phrase, primarily the notion that Mr. Jesus from Nazareth has a special and different "Heaven" from any other "heavens" that might exist.

Let's clear this up. For the purpose of marching ahead without distraction, i am going to make an exception from my usual empirical style. I will go ahead and give a picture of existence as i see it, and at this initial stage i am not going to seek to prove that picture to be right. I believe however, that a calm an un-biased viewer should be able to key-in to that picture.

Here we are. We find ourselves on Earth. In a material world, surrounded by Material things. We look up, and see the vastness of the heavens (material universe; stars) and we are humbled with wonder.

From the moment we are old enough to think, we begin to ask those ancient questions: "What are we, and what are we doing here. . . what is the purpose of all this. . ."

From the most ancient civilizations till date, man has come to recognise that although he lives in a material world, the things that matter most to him are entirely immaterial. To give the prime example - Love.

You can't touch it, you can barely see it, but you feel it in your heart. You know it is there.

Accordingly, men recognised the spiritual - the ancient pang within them for something that transcends this sphere. I should state at this point that the enigma of the spectre of death is crucial in the development of man's thinking in this regard.

If we accept the existence of the spiritual, then it is but a short leap from there, to the natural conclusion of most of humanity - namely that there is a core within man, that survives material decomposition at death. We know this, because we have felt it in our bossoms, at moments when we felt love, or a communal or patriotic spirit. . . Also the fact of visions during sleep (dreams) has always hinted at a deeper sub-conscious, which in many cases actually performs feats such as seeing the future. . . this again assures man that the spiritual is real.

Thus the question should properly read: what happens at death? What happens when the MATERIAL PART is set aside at the moment of death?

Man senses the existence of many possible realms of existence. Indeed, without the need for proof, he has actually experienced such realms within his inner life right here on this earth, in one faint form or the other.

In simple terms, the spirit is a spark of light emanating from the light of the Divine Oneness - God.

It has properties like a magnet. It can draw things to it, or repel things from it.

This simple secret is conveyed in all the ancient writings, and many people do not undertand the basis thereof.

"Whatever a man sows, the same shall he reap" - The words of Jesus. Here he was conveying the eternal truth that magnetic vibrations sent out by the human spirit will always return to it. It is the law of attraction of homogenuous species. It is a universal law, and the orientals have always known it, through their Karma-based religions.

Thus it is manifestly clear that, rearding the question of what happens at death, the human spirit will be naturally and magnetically attracted to that realm of existence which corresponds with its inner state.

A pure spirit will gravitate towards a pure realm. A dark spirit, towards a dark realm.

God is the cynosure of Divinity, and thus of purity. Thus the realms closest to HIM are the pure realms.

Those realms are what i understand by the word "Heaven".

As i have explained above, gravitation to those realms will only depend on the inner state of each human spirit. The inner state is a function of pure or dark thoughts, actions or volitions.

This is the same reaosn it is stated in Acts 10: 35 that "God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him".

Again, The Revelation of John the beloved, is replete with statements rearding judgment according to the works of each spirit.

Thus although Faith is good, each spirit must strive towards purity. Once the volition is right, the grace of God will help such a spirit attain the luminous heights of "paradise".

It can never be asserted with any degree of objectivity, that God in his perfection, would provide different criteria for salvation at different times, or to different peoples. And believing that each person must personally know Jesus of Nazareth is entirely absurd given that millions died without knowing of him already. Also millions more will die having heard of him, but entirely unable to believe anything about him on account of their different cultural backgrounds. God in HIS perfection has only ever required one thing of men, and that is LOVE.

Again note that when asked about salvation, Jesus himself stated that if a Man would love God and love his fellow man, all the law would be complete therein.

I verily believe that his commandments to believe in him, thus referred to obeying his commandment of Love, and nothing more. I can state this because he himself described what it entails to believe in him. HE said - "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." Thus a Mahatma Ghandi (a hindu)who goes through life spreading love and peace and brotherhood, already has "Christ" in him, much more than any person who proclaims belief in Christ, without those acts of love.

I also hope that i have been able to paint a composite picture of existence on Earth, transition to the luminous realms (heaven/ paradise) and the reasons therefore. In this, there is much scripture to support what i have written, aside from the few i quoted above.

I am going to use the life of Mahatma Ghandi as a study for this discussion.

shakerz:
This is for recognize or any other so-called Intelligent Chritian why is that your concept of God, of the trinity, of the redemption, of the resurrection and original sin mimic the believes of Mithriasism? Really, look at the history of the Midterrean religion and the similarities, such as Mithra having 12 deciples or that he was part of the trinity, that he came to wipe the sin of mankind or that he died on the cross, it is endless.

By logic of induction.

You can only come to this conlusion

1. After the religion of Pualine Christianity became the state religion of Rome, it is plausible that the mixture of paganistic religions and the religion of Abrhaham became interwined. Evidence can be seen by the christian holidays that all have pagan roots, the discoveries of mithra burial and religions places which were destroyed by Christian. If you read the reports of the early church fathers who were worred about mithra to the point that the called them the people in the cave. If you go back into older christian, like jewish christian, like the ebionites the faith and the conception of God begins to resemble Jewish and Islamic views of God. The quran was indeed right, the bible has been corrupted. Look at the history of the textual variants, the hundreds of manuscripts errors and the political envrioment sorrounding the work of the scribes. Look at the faulty counsils dictating the idea of God hundreds of years after Jesus ascended or the manuscripts, the many aprochayi writing that were once cannons but later got rejected.


Its sad that posters like recognize is defending the notion of a God dying or a trinity when these concepts have rooted in paganistic religions notions.

Here is what Judaisism and Islam and the way of all the prophets view God.

1. God is one. Not three, not two, not one, not indivisible as if he is some kind of pie.
2. God is unique. Unique in the perfect sense, that his attributes are not like his creation in any sense. If you can point to something that may resemble God in the least, like a tree or man, then that is not God. Notions of God becoming Man seem to have rooted in more paganistic cultures, those different from monotheism.
3. God is Self-Sufficient---he does not rely on others, he does not sleep like we do or eat as we do, he is unique in that sense. He does not pray to others, he is the ever-living.
4. God is not in everything--he is distinct from his creation in that he does not abide in it. You cannot find god apart of your toilet. Rather Gods knowledge is everywhere, we say God is close to you, we say he is nearby in knowledge of proximity.
5. God Does Not Die--He is ever living, ever existing and so on.

These very attributes are the very reason we worship him, and that we say none is worthy of worship. Really, a god who is killed by a handful of men, who cannot forgive, who resembles his creation, who is not unique in the perfect sense, who puts a barbarious doctrine of original sin on the innocent, is he worthy of Worship? rEALLY? Is he worthy of praise?Ask yourself and be honest. Most people will be hardpressed disagreeing with the conception of God that i posted above, it is sound and natural


Lastly God is all wise and in a certain way does not do irrational things.God has power over all things but there are certain things he has a limit on. God cannot for example be self-sufficient, otherwise he would not be God. God cannot lie since we know he is honest, he cannot be injust or not forgiving since these are his attributes.

the crux of the matter is that Jews and Muslim see God in a more honorable way, and the christians whether you like it or not, degrade God. Can  you imagine God on the last day telling all the Muslims on the last day to go to hell because they saw him as self-sufficient or they refused to believe in him dying because they said God is the one who never dies and it befits his majesty or that they disbeleived the original sin because they saw God as being forgiven and not allowing people to suffer at the hands of what two people ate. I doubt a God could be just and say, listen muslims, you should have believed that i died at the hands of a few roman soldiers because i sent myself to be killed and rise to myself so i can forgive you guys or that why did you pray five times a day and say God is great or that he has no partners in his dominion and raise me to such a status when you could have believed that I, God, the greatest to have existed, was born and entered the world through the birth canal of a 12 year old virign?

MyJoe:
There is no person alive who is associated with an organised religion who can assert with a reasonable degree of success that all his beliefs are concomitant with reason. When you accept a religion, you accept everything that goes with it - doctrine, rituals, etc. When uncomfortable topics like this one are raised, you gloss over them. Lawyers make a fortune out of this - glossing over points that create ripples in the client's case. A religious person does this without even thinking of it. The lawyer does it because his viewpoint is governed by his percuniary interests. So what is the religious person's motive? Is he disingenuous? Sometimes. Sometimes not. The problem is that he accepted the religion as (1) something revealed and (2) express train to salvation.
To convert someone to a religion, you don't need logic. All you need to tell him is that this is what is revealed. Then tell him (1) The "miracles" and signs that accompanied the revelation (appeal to belief in the supernatural). (2) That millions have embraced it and there is an endless queue of millions more waiting to cuddle it (appeal to the band wagon effect) (3) That there is salvation here (appeal to self preservation) (4) That anyone who does not belong here is lost ("come out and be saved", appeal to the feel special effect). (5) That it is urgent (appeal to fear). For without an obsession with the five highlighted elements religion would fail. These five elements appeal to the emotion. Once the emotion processes them a dislocation takes place in the brain and the inborn psychological defenses therein get displaced. The rational part of the brain shuts down and you get a convert.
It is impossible to be a good follower of a religion and reject aspects of its teachings no matter how ludicrous. Being intelligent of having a PhD is rewarding, but does not usually help in this matter.

sweeti14:
Abuzola lets get sumfim straight here.God the father,God the son and God the holyspirit are 1.God the father sent God the son(Jesus) to earth.Jesus came in HUMAN FORM in order 2 identify with us humans.As 4 your saying dat Jesus disgraced Himself by being spat on and stuff dats a lie.He could have stopped them but he dint cuz dat wuz part of what He had 2 suffer 4 our sake.When He died,He went 2 hell to collect the keys of death from the devil thereby ensuring our freedom and salvation,to crown it all HE ROSE AND IS ALIVE NOW!