₦airaland Forum

Noetic -

I promised you $1 million if you could show me a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself claimed to be God.

It appears that you either do not like money or you are running away, having realized that Jesus himself never claimed to be God?

duduspace:
Are you implying in any way that those countries such as Afghanistan and Turkey(which is seeking entry into the EU) which we generally know as bastions of sharia law and models of what a typical islamic society should be like are still living back in the middle ages?

Turkey is a secular state

yoji:
with all due respect, this thread exposes d poster who obviously knows nothing about football. i believe d answers on it are enuff to close the thread.

Nooo. . . i believe in Zidane, i just wanted to do a public poll to prove the point to the persons i was arguing with. . .

Please more votes, i need twenty votes overall. . .

noetic15:
what sort of nonsense is this?

is Ghandi a peace maker? what do u understand by peace makers?

If you can state this, it is clear you are completely ignorant of what the man dedicated his life to.

If you can state this, i cannot and will not continue with this discussion.

I give up on you.

noetic15:
so why then should he make heaven after dedicating his life to the service of idols?

Idols? Clearly you did not read the quotes of Ghandi i placed above.

See some of them on God:

Seeking God: "I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it.

Faith in God: "Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of the ocean."

God is Strength: "Who am I? I have no strength save what God gives me. I have no authority over my countrymen save the pure moral. If He holds me to be a pure instrument for the spread of non-violence in place of the awful violence now ruling the earth, He will give me the strength and show me the way. My greatest weapon is mute prayer. The cause of peace is therefore, in God's good hands."

jagunlabi:
Why does the creator have to have a NAME?

You see, you are contradicting yourself - the very word "Creator" is also a name.

Why are you using that word?

Why dont you refer to the Creator like this - (i rephrase your question below)

"why does [silence for a few moments] have to have a name?"

Language, brother. We need words to refer to all ideas we have. Even infinity, we gave the name "infinitY".

Abuzola:
@dudu, what they did has nothing to do with islam, they acted upon their motives, see what God says about such

'indeed, lost are they who have killed their children foolishly without knowledge and have forbidden that which God has provided for them, inventing a lie against God. They have indeed gone astray and were not guided' Quran 6:140

This is a good response from Abuzola. The very first time i would see a good response from him.

Nevertheless, one cannot but compare these to the reaction of Jesus to Adultery:

"Let him who has no sin cast the first stone."

Wow. Worlds apart.

Noetic - In addittion to all this, you are willing to assert that the Beatitudes were lies.

I am amazed that in order to support man-made dogma, you are willing to declare that Jesus was telling lies when he mouthed the beatitudes?

Because if he was not telling lies, then -

"Blessed are the Peace Makers, for they shall be called Children of God"

Defintely qualifies Mahatma Ghandi, beyond any human being living or dead, to be called a Child of God.

Noetic - Who's being irrational, me, or someone who declares Mahatma Ghandi damned on account of the dogma below:

A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it.

Deep Sight:
I verily believe that his commandments to believe in him, thus referred to obeying his commandment of Love, and nothing more. I can state this because he himself described what it entails to believe in him. HE said - "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." Thus a Mahatma Ghandi (a hindu)who goes through life spreading love and peace and brotherhood, already has "Christ" in him, much more than any person who proclaims belief in Christ, without those acts of love.

Above, i already showed you what believing in him is all about.

The Mod is within his rights. This fellow posts irrelevant quoranic verses in every thread. That's spamming.

^^^ Man, i am thoroughly amazed at your limited reading of scripture, but more at your world view.

Its ok, i think our world-views are so drastically different that we may never convince each other.

I wonder what you think will happen to children or adolescents in this regard.

How can you fail to see how your dogma would sound to a person of a different culture.

A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it.

Gosh.

I just cant believe how any rational person could believe this in the first place.

And worse still, believe that if others do not accept it as he has, then such others are damned, regardless of the purity of their hearts, the goodness of their ways, the humilty of their minds, or the peace and love they giv ethe world.

Let me ask you how belief in a fact, would validate or invalidate that fact? How belief in a fact, would change the state of a pure or evil soul. A good man who disbelieves it does not cease to be good, any more than an evil man who believes it will cease to be evil. I am surprised the essence of M_Nwankwo's example of the Child - Professor is lost on you. Cant you see that one can already be something without recognising it? Did we not give you the verse where Jesus said he would welcome people to his kingdom who did not even know that they were serving him?

How can you say these things Noetic? Dont you realise how awfully narrow-minded you are beginning to sound? ? ?

Go and read the beatitudes again.  -

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

[size=16pt]Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God. [/size]

[size=16pt]Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God. [/size]

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Look at the highlighted parts again. What do they tell you Noetic?

Where does it say here that one needs to know or even believe in any death? And this was his most succinct and in-depth statement on salvation.

Gosh, Noetic - CANT YOU SEE IT? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Nope!^^^ You both have not grasped that the cosmological argument is about finite things orthings that have a beginning. What's the big bang, if not a beginning?

Ta ta. . .

mazaje:
What has your hypothetical senario have to do with reality?. . . . . .has what you have written ever happened? Has it ever been verified scientifically?

O give me a break! How can anybody verify a dream, when it occurs within the consciousness of the dreamer only? ? ?

Are you suggesting to me that we cannot logically perceive the existence of things that cannot be scientifically seen?

That is exactly why i asked you about love!

I said - have you ever loved before? I am guessing you have. Oya, bring me the scientific proof for your love. Show us where it was empirically verified.

Someone has said on this forum that we actually live our lives centred around things that cannot be seen or touched! Love is just one example, and yet i am talking about the spiritual, and you are asking me for a scientific experiment? ? ? This beats me!

And this is the whole point: If you can sense things that a themometre cannot (such as love) why do you insist that anything which a themometre cannot verify therefore does not exist

I give up on you.

Deep Sight:
^^^ You are still being evasive.

Noetic set out his question carefully. In doing so, note that he constructed a very precise scenario - such that it is not just one event (like in your example) that is at issue - rather a whole sequence of events which replay themselves in reality to precision, along a paticular pattern already seen in a dream.

Thus if i have a dream that i fall down my staircase, and shortly after, i do fall down my staircase, it is possible for you to argue that that is a mere coincidence.

BUT - If i have a dream that i fall down my stairwell, and break my ankle, and a strange italian man rushes to my aid, and he is wearing a red necklace, and he carries me out, and once out i see his green mercedes parked outside my gate, and we get into it, and there is seated in the car an angolan woman, and the woman is carrying a baby boy, and we drive off to the hospital, and at the hospital i fall down again at the entrance and break my wrist, and on getting to the Doctor's office we are told there is no space and to come back the next day, and as we drive home we have another accident. . .

If all the essentials of this dream playout in reality, then it is most difficult, nay, impossible to argue that this is a co-incidence.

Because of the sequence of events.

Have you studied the mathematics of sequential probabilities?

@ Mazaje - I repeat: have you ever studies the mathematics of sequential probabilities? ? ?

@ Pastor AIO - In my case virtually all my dreams come to pass, that's why i am pressing this point. It is clear that there is something external that transmits those images to the brain, and not necessarily that the Brain generates them all by itself based on exsting thoughts, such as Mazaje is trying to suggest.

^^^ You are still being evasive.

Noetic set out his question carefully. In doing so, note that he constructed a very precise scenario - such that it is not just one event (like in your example) that is at issue - rather a whole sequence of events which replay themselves in reality to precision, along a paticular pattern already seen in a dream.

Thus if i have a dream that i fall down my staircase, and shortly after, i do fall down my staircase, it is possible for you to argue that that is a mere coincidence.

BUT - If i have a dream that i fall down my stairwell, and break my ankle, and a strange italian man rushes to my aid, and he is wearing a red necklace, and he carries me out, and once out i see his green mercedes parked outside my gate, and we get into it, and there is seated in the car an angolan woman, and the woman is carrying a baby boy, and we drive off to the hospital, and at the hospital i fall down again at the entrance and break my wrist, and on getting to the Doctor's office we are told there is no space and to come back the next day, and as we drive home we have another accident. . .

If all the essentials of this dream playout in reality, then it is most difficult, nay, impossible to argue that this is a co-incidence.

Because of the sequence of events.

Have you studied the mathematics of sequential probabilities?

Ok! You are freed.

For now only!

I'll be right back.

noetic15:
Jesus is the SON of God. . . .He is as such God.

Noetic is the son of Papa-Noetic. He is as such Papa-Noetic

^^^ Men! Mazaje, it was entirely comical seeing how desperate you were above to avoid answering Noetic's question! Haba, you cant be that afraid, surely. . . ?

Since when did rational debaters shy from EVEN hypothetical questions? Are hypothetical questions not the life-blood of analogy? ? ?

You running away from the question was even more comical because YOU yourelf have stated to me on this Forum that you have had dreams that came to pass as well. Now suddenly you state that you "personally consider it not to be true. . . !"

Lets at least always be straight-forward, even if it means conceding some points to the other party!

The truth is you can never rationalize predictive dreams as being the product of the brain only!

^^^ Krayola my man, how bodi. . . i need to point out that i accept that the core nature of the God-Concept cannot be logically proven or understood. What i believe can be logically proven is the existence of some entity responsible for creation, not necessarily the nature of that entity.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=339878.msg4765549#msg4765549 date=1255995318]A crude analogy may suffice. Imagine a person who has a deep longing to become a Professor of Molecular Biology. As a primary school kid he does not know what molecular biology or professor is all about but is very much fascinated by animals, insects and numbers. While other kids are playing pranks, he is busy trying to find out why a planted seed grows, why  their are patterns on  butterfly wings etc. This fascination with nature and how it works in reciprocity programs his brain to understand biological structures. In his first biology class in high school, he was so fascinated as he piped through a section of a living cell in a light microscope. He was so overwhelmed by this experience  that he does not want to let go off the microscope until the instructor forcibly removed him from pipping into the magic class. It was not surprising that in high school, he graduated with top grades in mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. At this point he is beginning to have a faint idea of what molecular biology is but lacks understanding of what it means to be  a Professor. But unknown to him, his fascination with nature and biology have sown the seed that will germinate and in 25 years time will ripen as a professor of Molecular Biology. A superficial observer will not be able to see the professor in the kid when he was in high school, undergrad or even in his graduate school. But a deeper look will show that the seed was sown as the child gallivanted about trying to fathom how a maggot turns to a housefly. Meanwhile another kid have no interest in biology or nature but is the son of a professor of molecular biology. Because he regularly hears about DNA, sequencing, cloning, PCR etc from his dad, he soon imagines that he is a molecular biologist. But you do not become a molecular biologist by being the son of one but you become one by acquiring the requisite skills and training. What takes a decade or more post first degree with respect to this crude analogy may take few earthly years to millions of earthly years for the spiritual recognition of Jesus as the redeemer and son of God. If you sow yam, you reap yam and it does not matter if you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, an Agnostic, a deist etc. The obedience to the will of God lies in the sowing of the yam and not on the toga of religion. Love is love whether from a christian or a buddhist. Lies are lies whether it is from an agnostic or deist. The eternal law of God has intrinsically made yam to be yam. Thus if you want to rip corn, then sow corn but you will be wasting your time if you want corn and sow yam. You can gather all the prayer warriors on earth to change the yam to corn and it will not change. It is a mockery of divine justice to say that genuine love sown by those whose religious persuasions are different from us is not the true love that Jesus brought.[/quote]Oh my God! You call this a crude analogy?

This is the most brilliant write-up i have seen on this Forum!

Brilliant! Brilliant!! Brilliant!!!

Please let the votes continue, i need at least 20 votes before closing the poll. . .

mazaje:
Neuroscience has explained a lot about emotions like anger, love.,happiness and sadness. . . . all these things are controlled by the brian that is why a person who is unconcious can never experince or display any of these emotions. . .Love is the is an emotional feeling and is controlled by the brian. . . .The right hemisphere of the brain is the side that controls our emotions, creativity, and visual/spacial abilities. . .this hemisphere controls our artistic side, and our emotions, Our frontal lobe is the executive part of the brian. . . . It regulates impulse control and basic thought. Love is an emotion we feel, not something we can see or touch. It is purely emotional, the actions of love we can see. . .so love is an emotional feeling that is controlled by our brians and our consiousness feels it. . . .

Neuroscience does no such thing Mazaje.

Neuro science shows us the effects and visible impulses within the brain of the impressions that the brain receives.

If Neuroscience controls such impulses, then you would fall in love with every beautiful woman you set eyes on, as the brain would set to work and "create" the feeling for you.

Get real Mazaje.

mazaje:
that is why a person who is unconcious can never experince or display any of these emotions. . .

Really? And unconscious persons have not been known to have dreams in which they experience powerful emotions?

Seriously, Mazaje.

No - Seriously now.

Here's the Poster-Boy for my argument. . . my hero, Mahatma Ghandi. . .

Please digest this before we proceed further, and try to understand the enormity of the suggestion that a braggart like Davidlylan who insults everybody at the slightest criticism will make it to "Jesus' heaven" before this great guy. . .

Mahatma Gandhi

Hinduism at its best


Mohandas Gandhi, (1869 – 1948) was a major political and spiritual leader of India and its independence movment. He was a pioneer of non-violent, civil disobedience, a tactic and philosophy that figured in many of the human rights movements of the 20th century. Gandhi was commonly known as Mahatma Gandhi, a title derived from the Sanskrit for "Great Soul." In some respects, Gandhi not only represents the best elements of Hinduism, he also was interested in the reform of this and other world religions, which he acknowledged, sometimes are applied and interpreted in ways that keep the poor and oppressed peoples of the planet in a permanent state of powerlessness.
Gandhi first employed his ideas of civil disobedience in the Indian struggle for civil rights in South Africa. Upon his return to India, he helped lead poor farmers and labourers to protest oppressive taxation and widespread discrimination. Leading the Indian National Congress, Gandhi worked for the alleviation of poverty, the liberation of women, and an end to the caste system.

Gandhi remained committed to non-violence even in the most extreme situations. He was a student of Hindu philosophy and lived simply, organizing an ashram that was self-sufficient in its needs. He made his own clothes and lived on a simple vegetarian diet. He used rigorous fasts for self-purification as well as a means of protest. One of his foremost concerns was improving that status of India's lower classes, drawing the poor and the marginalized into the freedom struggle. Gandhi's teachings have inspired civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in the US and Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

Famous Gandhi quotations:


Religion - a Matter of the Heart: "True religion is not a narrow dogma. It is not external observance. It is faith in God and living in the presence of God. It means faith in a future life, in truth and Ahimsa…. Religion is a matter of the heart. No physical inconvenience can warrant abandonment of one's own religion."


Hinduism: "I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth; I believe in the varnashrama dharma in a sense, in my opinion strictly Vedic but not in its presently popular crude sense; I believe in the protection of cow … I do not disbelieve in murti puja." (Young India: June 10, 1921)


The Gita: "Hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being … When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and when I see not one ray of light on the horizon, I turn to the Bhagavad Gita, and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow.
My life has been full of tragedies and if they have not left any visible and indelible effect on me, I owe it to the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita." (Young India: June 8, 1925)

Seeking God: "I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it.


The Future of Religions: No religion which is narrow and which cannot satisfy the test of reason, will survive the coming reconstruction of society in which the values will have changed and character, not possession of wealth, title or birth will be the test of merit.


Faith in God: "Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of the ocean."


God is Strength: "Who am I? I have no strength save what God gives me. I have no authority over my countrymen save the pure moral. If He holds me to be a pure instrument for the spread of non-violence in place of the awful violence now ruling the earth, He will give me the strength and show me the way. My greatest weapon is mute prayer. The cause of peace is therefore, in God's good hands."


Christ: "I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable. Metaphorically we are all sons of God, but for each of us there may be different sons of God in a special sense. Thus for me Chaitanya may be the only begotten son of God … God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus." (Harijan: June 3, 1937)


Conversion: "I believe that there is no such thing as conversion from one faith to another in the accepted sense of the word. It is a highly personal matter for the individual and his God. I may not have any design upon my neighbour as to his faith, which I must honour even as I honour my own. Having reverently studied the scriptures of the world I could no more think of asking a Christian or a Musalman, or a Parsi or a Jew to change his faith than I would think of changing my own." (Harijan: September 9, 1935)


All Religions are True: "I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian." (Young India: January 19, 1928) [/color]

noetic15:
open a new thread. . . . I will gladly educate u there.

No need to duplicate threads - there is already one in existence, and only four posts so far, so we can hijack the thread. . .

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-338352.0.html

See my reply to Jagunlabi in the thread titled "Is God Self Sustaining. . ."

mazaje:
@Deep Sight

I want to know exactly why you choose the Jewish/Christian god as evidence for your nameless god. . . .

Please i have never done this. . .

^^^ Great, no problems with this, i agree with you.

My issue is you make points that suggest that you do not accept the existence of anything spiritual. For example you said there is no evidence that souls exist.

That's why i ask you about love. Is it the physical body that feels love?

If not, then what feels love, tell me.

noetic15:
# To claim to love God. . .without recognising Jesus as that God. . .is as good as loving a false god like allah.

Accordingly Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha as well as all the apostles who wrote that Jesus was inferior to the Father . . .

All do not love God! Great, i am getting used to you and enjoying your delightful lines of reasoning!

noetic15:
b. Jesus also asserted that He is God.

I will give you $1 Million of my own money if you can point out a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself stated that he was God.

Mazaje -

Is it your position that only physical things exist?

If so, might i enquire if you have ever felt love.

If you have, is it a physical thing?

Does it exist?

And if it exists, in what part of your physical body does it exist?