₦airaland Forum

Pastor/ Krayola -

If you will examine closely, you both are really saying the same thing.

CULLED FROM THE NATIONAL POST:

[color=#990000]The UN Human Rights Council on Friday endorsed a report that accused Israel of war crimes in Gaza, passing a resolution that singled it out for censure.

The UN Human Rights Council yesterday passed a resolution endorsing a Gaza war crimes report prepared by jurist Richard Goldstone.

WHAT WAS THE RESOLUTION?

The Council adopted, "a resolution that focused on continuing violations of human rights by Israel in the Occupied Palestinian territories." It condemned, "all policies and measures taken by Israel, the occupying Power, including those limiting access of Palestinians to their properties and holy sites particularly in Occupied East Jerusalem" and "condemned the recent Israeli violations of human rights in Occupied East Jerusalem."

VOTING

The resolution passed 25-6. Opposed: U.S., Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Slovakia and Ukraine. Eleven mostly European and African countries abstained. Britain, France and three other members declined to vote.

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT ?

The Council recommended that the 15-member Security Council require both sides in the conflict to show within six months that they are carrying out independent and impartial investigations into alleged abuses. If they are not, the matter could be referred to prosecutors at the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

AND IF ISRAEL DOESN'T CARRY OUT THE INVESTIGATION?

Israel could find itself facing a request at the Security Council to refer the case to prosecutors at the ICC. However, the U.S. is likely to use its veto to block any call for getting the ICC involved.

^^^ Tudor, i am surprised you dont know the following - \

1. There is only one nation in the Middle East that is in breach of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Accord

2. There is only one nation in the Middle East that has the worst war crimes record

3. There is only one nation in the Middle East guilty of seizing land not previously belonging to it.

Tudor: That nation is Israel.

^^^ So where was God when Hitler was slaughtering six million Jews during the Nazi Holocaust?

David -

I see you opened this thread about three years ago.

I hope that in that period you have had enough time to reflect on how gravely misguided the idea of "praying" for Israel is.

I am sure you watched the way that particular war turned out (Lebanon). More importantly, i am sure you saw the follow-up carried out by your combative Jews in Gaza last year.

I am sure that you, as an academic, have taken the time to go through the United Nations Human Rights and War Crimes Report compiled by the UN after an exhasutive study of that crisis.

I am certain that as a supposedly objective person, you will have the nerve to admit that nothing but the worst form of religious zealotry and dogmatism could make a West African living hundreds of years after the inscription of Jewish scripture sit around to canvass spiritual support for an approach taken by a militant nation which will doubtless ensure decades, if not centuries of undending conflict?

Instead of being so "religious" maybe you should spare a thought for the innocent civilians and children involved in this.

And oh, before you go off praying in tongues for Israel, go find out how many casualties they had in Gaza last year. Only 9. Four of which fell to friendly fire.

Dont you think the civilian palestinian population who suffered over 3000 casualties deserve more prayers?

@ Purist. . . Are you just meeting Davidylan? He is the Christian Soldier - Brother of Noetic. It appears he may have been on Pilgrimage, hence Noetic has been fighting all the crusades alone.

Davidylan. . . where the hell have you been? It's been a while.

I opened a thread which should have been for both you and Noetic, but had to address it to Noetic only, cos you seemed AWOL.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-336988.0.html

How you dey now?

@ Poster - i take it you have been blinded by the smoke from their PRIVATE JETS?

^^^ Whatever it is, my interest is in seeing the mods live up to responsibilities.

Because this is really really sickening. For me, i have always had a hunger for TRUTH and Debate, and i come to this Forum for that. It is absolutely a big let-down to find the Forum turned into a kindergarten yabbis garden.

In this instance for example, what is this thread still doing alive? What does it have to do with religion? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Honestly i cannot understand why no action has been taken. If the action is to ban them both, fine!

But some action must be taken!

Hi guys, just having a little debate here.

Can you please indicate in the Poll above and make your comments on who you regard as the greater footballer -

  1. Zinedine Zidane

  2. Ronaldinho

Please remember each one in his prime.

Thanks.

@ Tpia - perhaps you should determinedly ignore this fellow.

@ Mods - Whats happening? Where's the ban? Would you permit this crass trash to continue?

If so, then new mods are needed.

^^^ That dogma cannot be understood by rational men, that's what it tells me.

Noetic, note that whenever a cult or sect is propounding a difficult dogma, the first excuse they cover it with is - "o, you cannot understand except by revelation, initiation, etc"

At all events, please do me a favour and review the first post in this thread in the link below, for a proper appreciation of the significance of the judicial murder of Jesus of Nazareth by the Romans and Jews.

You may recall that i have once asked you what you thought about the Parable of the Vineyard, but your response was both evasive and lacking in content.


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-338329.0.html

Mods - get responsible: the insults Banom (now Playboy*) hurls are extremely vulgar and although i do not know the root of the beef, i always see Banom throwing the first unsalutary insult.

This is the RELIGION segment, and nobody should be allowed to turn it into a yabbis contest devoid of any religious content.

Given that this particular thread has nothing to do with religion, it should be locked or moved.

Mods, please do your jobs and ban this irritating childish stuff.

^^^ Ecellent definition of the word 'Pastor'!

Now what do you make of those 'subtleties' i tried to address above.

"Cross" as used in the NT referred to a burden being carried by a (sometimes condemned) man.

You agree?

Whatdo you understand by the word 'Cross' contained therein?

Seun, please unban the original Noetic!

Noetic - another morsel for thought.

"Verily verily i say unto you, whatsoever a man soweth, the same shall he reap".

Please dont in your usual way ask me for definitions. This verse is clear.

GBAM!

Pastor AIO:
I want that testicle.

Pastor - I know that you only answered those questions out of your desperation to devour that testicle. However you have made a grave error: you will see that the wager was made with Jesoul, and not you. I have therefor parcelled it off and sent it to her mailing address. Right now i am recuperating from the surgical procedure that it took to extract these answers from you extract the testicle.

Thanks for the answers, and thanks, Jesoul.

Let me attempt, if i dare, to expound on the various subtleties that you referred to.

Please correct me wherever i am wrong: these are my perceptions, and i hope that in the matter of these subtleties, they are yours also.

1. Jesus as the Son of God: To the extent that all things and all beings are spawned by the creative will of God, we are, as Jesus was, all Children of the Creator. We thus may all be called sons of God. Jesus himself gave credence to this when he suggested that God was His father in the same way as God remains father for us, when he stated: "I am ascending. . . to my father and your father, to my God and your God. . ." It thus seems fairly clear that "Sonship" needn't be seen in exclusive terms.

Nevertheless i am aware that the bible speaks of Jesus as being "the only begotten son" and also places a special light upon his "sonship". For this, i can only say two things: In the first place it is no doubt possible for Jesus to be a special son of God in one esoteric form or the other which we may not understand. However in the second place i must say that specific knowledge of such could not possibly be required of any human being as if it is the case, then it will be an advanced divine matter reserved for the understanding of Divine Beings. The dictates of a human conscience cannot be affected by such advanced knowledge, as i am convinced that "salvation" rests in the minute and the simple, the everyday kindnesses we can show one another, the strength to power a good volition, and nothing more. Thus, we are not required to know who he is, in terms of any such "sonship" or "divinity" - if at all such exists.

However i must state my own personal aversion towards any attempt to deify a human being, which i regard Jesus as being.

2. His death as salvation for mankind: In a way it could be said that this is actually the case, on the understanding that in the process of teaching TRUTH to mankind, he was killed. He may therefore be seen as a matyr, who laid down his life for the purpose of teaching people truth and ethics. However once again i do not believe that a human being has to be aware of this fact at all, much less accept it as true, in order to be "saved". I believe, as i said above, that a true and pure conscience is all that is required.

As a side note, let me state that my perception of Divine Justice is completely at variance with the idea that anybody can ritually "die" for any other persons sins, and thereby "justify" or "take away" such sins. I verily believe the words of Jesus himself when he stated "whatever a man soweth, the same shall he reap". This statement, for me, contradicts the dogmatic idea of salvation by death on the Cross. Also, Jesus' parable of the Vineyard, makes it clear that the crucifixion was not the will of God, and the prayer in Gethsemane, shows that Jesus himself did not want it to happen.

3. Heaven and Hell: Certainly there are many realms of existence. Each individual's experience in each realm could be "heavenly", "hellish" or an admixture of both. I believe that the experiences will be determined by Karma ("Verily verily i say unto you, whatsoever a man soweth the same shall he reap".

4. The Bible: No doubt it contains alot of profound truth. But also alot of mistranslations, insertions, misunderstandings, misconceived dogma, aside from the fact that it is a selection from a vast body of existing works, many of which are missing today, and it must be remembered that the selection process was conducted by an institution (the Roman Church) which at the time was vastly corrupt (and dogmatic).

Aside from this, i agree with Pastor that no person needs any book to be saved (lest all illiterates be damned!) and for me the words of the "Book of Life" are imprinted on the spirit and conscience of each and every man.

Pastor, have i captured some of the subtleties you had in mind, of course i know i can neither capture all, nor be on the same wavelength as you are, being different individuals with different perspectives that we are.

justcool:
@Deep Sight
My dear friend, I didn't intend to brush you up. I didn't even know that I did that so don't take it that way. I am genuinely sorry for disappointing you, also I am sorry if I have said anything to offend you. It wasn't intended.

I am not intolerant about people challenging my convictions. You are welcome to do that anyday, as long as you keep it within the boundaries of my conviction. My conviction is that the Grail Message is the Truth, the book explains the truth about God. You are welcome to question or challenge this anytime. But when you go beyond God and the message and start inquering personalities then I will back away.

I will give you a simple analogy. I once took an exam in the university where we were not allowed put our names on the exam papers, rather we were given numbers. After taking the exam, I went inquired why the department chose to do that. They told me that they don't want favoritism or racism to interfere with the grading of the papers. They found out that students get fairer review of their papers when the reviewer or the grader does not know them or anything about them. This way the grader judges the paper just based on the contents which is the only thing grading papers should be all about.

Thus one must be able to examine a message and not the bringer. Gold is gold even in the hands of a beggar. I wish not for us to go into inquiring about Abd-ru-shin because this might interior with your judgement or assessment of the message. Remember most of the Jews that rejected Jesus did so just because He was a carpenter. I know somebody who wouldn't examine the message just because Abr-ru-shin was a German.

If your seeking in truly in enerst, then dear friend, lets deal with the message and not the bringer. Afterall Abd-ru-shin brought the Message and not Himself.

Do you spend time seeking to know your post-man rather accepting your mail and reading it? Afterall the post-man is just a messenger.

I hope you understand what I mean. I don't wish to brush you off. I just felt that you are approaching the issue from a wrong perspective.

Thanks

Thank you Justcool. Well, i suppose it is fair to avert my gaze from the Messenger as you have said.

Going back to the parable. For me it is a very clear indication that the crucifixion was not the will of God. It has always seemed to me bizzarre that people would accept this as the will of God and in fact translate it into the foundation for "salvation".

It seems to me that salvation, or transitting peacefully to a higher realm as opposed to a lower realm rests upona pure conscience and a spirit filled with love. It also seems to me that this has always been the case from time immemorial, and that God neither does, nor can change the rules as HE goes along. I do not perceive the Divine GODHEAD to be so trivial as to shift the goal posts from time to time.

The prayer in Gethsemane makes this abundantly obvious. It never ceases to amaze me that people overlook such clear pointers, and deliberately read them to suit established dogma.

^^^ Justcool, I am gravely dissapointed.

I will respect your request and ask no further questions, as you appear uncomfortable with the subject. But before i go i will make a few remarks.

   1. I have followed your past posts with avid interest, and the way in which you have been able to enlighten others on parts of the Message has struck me as very useful. I was particularly struck, in my quest to come to an understanding of his identity, in a particular thread where you explained to Pastor AIO and others the significance of the world events and world wars which occured during Abd Rushin's lifetime. That helped me alot, and i must admit i was seriously hoping you would do as much justice to my questions as you did to the questions on that thread. I must also admit i am somewhat saddened and embarrased at the way you have brushed me off.

  2. Please note that i did not ferret the issue of Abd Rushin's identity out of thin air. You have talked about focusing on the interpretation of the parable, but you seem to have forgotten that it was your interpretation of who "the Lord of the Vineyard" is, that raised my concerns. Thus, i was not speaking out of context.

  3. The manner in which you have shut down discussion on my concerns, i am very sorry to say, cuts the impression that there are "secret areas" within the Message or better put "esoteric topics" on which discussion is prohibited. I have read the Message, and i am aware that no such "prohibited areas" exist, but i advise you that the way you shut down the discussion will give the erroneous impression to on-lookers that there are secret things which you do not want to reveal. That will only aid the impression that some people have of the grail movement as a secret cult of some sort, which is certainly a wrong perception.

  4. Finally, you have unwittingly painted a picture of yourself as very intolerant of any open discussion which seems to question your convictions.

Take care, and thanks nonetheless.

Banom/ Tpia - What's the beef, i ask yet again?

Banom, dont you think as a gentleman you are going overboard? I would not address any woman the way you do.

Why not? Remeber Evita? Eva Peron - Argentina's great ex-first lady, loved as a God by the Masses around the world?

She started life as a prostitute in an ordinary brothel.

JeSoul:
Pastor AIO, If I may jump into the mix . . . I believe Deepsight is particularly curious about your belief on the person of Jesus Christ. So point blank,

- do you believe Jesus Christ is/was the son of God?
- do you believe He died and rose again for the salvation of the souls of mankind?
- do you believe men can be saved by believing in Him and living like Him?
- do you believe in hell or heaven? (hell and heaven as the bible describes)
- do you believe the bible (some parts or all) is from God?
- do you see the bible (some parts or all) as an authority on supernatural matters?

just some basic questions that are not meant to be confrontational, but should you decline to answer, that'll be fine.

I can bet you my left testicle that Pastor will not answer these questions. Its really strange.

Justcool -

I am sorry if i seem aggressive about this subject.

This arises from the fact that the claim concerning his divinity virtually robbed me of the profound joy that i experienced upon reading the Grail Message. You see, i am terribly suspicious of ALL dogma that seeks to ascribe divinity to ANY human being who has walked upon this earth. This is because i am all too aware of the tendency of mankind to deify spiritual leaders. Jesus never even once called himself God, and yet most of the Christian world today beleives him to be God, as per the Trinity Doctrine, which he did not teach. The Buddha, who was entirely silent on the question of ANY deity, is today himself worshipped as God of some sort in many parts of the Orient. Not to speak of the claims of our own Sat Guru Maharaji, to being the reincarnated christ? Or Olumba Olumba Obu, who is advertised as "the Alpha and Omega". . .

My fears on the deification of humans springs only from my intense reverence for the Godhead. . .

For the sake of on-lookers, i would not want you to appear as though you are evading the questions. It seems that you deliberately did not mention the names of Abd-Rushin or Parsifal in your First Post, because you were aware that it would be most unpalatable to the average reader to realise that you were declaring Abd-Rushin to be the Son of Man, as taught by the Grail Message.

You are fully aware that Parsifal's radiation coalesced into Adb-Rushin for his journey through the worlds, and you are fully aware that it was this same person you were refering to when you spoke of the "Lord of the Vineyard". . . but you deliberately refused to mention his name, why?

Even when i put the names to you, you still shrugged and stated that you never mentioned those names! Why are you so terribly desperate to avoid stating boldly that Adb Rushin is the son of man? And the "Lord of the Vineyard"? After all, he is said to sit atop the whole creation, and is "God with us"?

I need you to objectively respond to these -

Deep Sight:
In this instance, it is too much of a stretch. For the simple reason that if your logic were to be followed, then since Jesus refers to himself as "the lamb", "the son of God", "the way, truth and life", "the light of the world" . . . we can conclude that he was with each description referring to a different entity/ personage

And more importantly, this - (note the emboldened parts in red please)

Deep Sight:
Deny that:

1. Parsifal = Abdrushin (on earth, for he still remained in the Grail Castle at the summit while Abdrushin was on Earth)

2. Imanuel = Parsifal

3. Imanuel came from the unsubstantiate core of God, and thus is part-God at least, and thus by conclusion that by advancing the Trinity Doctrine. . .

Then Abdrushin = God.

Yes?

If you are interested in the activities of Nigerian Christians in London, do some online research on a character called Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo and his trials with the UK Charity Commission.

That should shed proper light on the real intentions of Nigerian "Christians". . . especially those who set up churches.

Ata boy! What a good boy now!

But i am a little dissapointed. When i saw the title, i hoped you were opening this thread to recant all your dogma.

Statements such as Mahatma Ghandi is going to hell? That needs to be recanted too!

But thanks, this is very very nice and big of you, dear Noetic.

By the way, do you know the whereabouts of your brother in christ, Davidylan? He's been missing for a while.

TPIA/ WIRINET -

In the name of God, please leave it off, i dont want the thread derailed: there are serious questions that have been put to Noetic, let him come and answer them.

Wirinet, if you must respond to her, open a thread on that subject please.

Thanks.

Justcool!

It is a process!

And i demand exacting honesty, from you, in accordance with what i know to be your sure convictions!

Before we proceed:

Deny that:

1. Parsifal = Abdrushin (on earth, for he still remained in the Grail Castle at the summit while Abdrushin was on Earth)

2. Imanuel = Parsifal

3. Imanuel came from the unsubstantiate core of God, and thus is part-God at least, and thus by conclusion that by advancing the Trinity Doctrine. . .

Then Abdrushin = God.

Yes?

I Give up -

^^^Pastor, this thread was opened exactly because of comments like these from you. . . eternally ambiguous -

Pastor AIO:
So in a sense they are right and in another sense they are not right.

The questions are all very very simple and very very clear, and you can see that i have gone to great lengths to try to elicit answers from you.

I am very surprised that No. 4 is not outrightly acceptable to you.

I am also still perplexed at the way you recoil from being directly associated with Jesus Christ, and still profess yourself christian. . . On this thread alone, you have avoided identifying who he is, or being associated with him at least three times. . . Are you afraid of being seen as a Christian?

I must be honest when i say that i am beginning to feel entirely frustrated as we are exactly where we were before this thread. There is absolutely no clarity from you, and although i have gone silent on them, several severe and telling contradictions still remain.

My surmise of the 5 points above was an honest attempt to be clear on you. . . but there we go again. . . right in a sense and wrong in a sense. . .

Very soon, i will give up entirely.

Just-Cool -

So refreshing as always. I agree with your reading of the parable completely.

Well. . . Except for one part. Your interpretation of the "Lord of the Vineyard" as referring to Parsifal/ Abdrushin.

This is surely reading too much into the text. Because the truth is that the Bible is not Further Mathematics, and the mere fact that different terms were used to describe the owner of the vineyard does not necessarily mean that two different persons were being referred to.

I see that you seize even the slightest oppurtunity to infer that Abd Rushin is the Son of Man. This is singularly the most difficult teaching to accept within the Grail Message, and your interpretation seeks to butress that strange claim. . .

In this instance, it is too much of a stretch. For the simple reason that if your logic were to be followed, then since Jesus refers to himself as "the lamb", "the son of God", "the way, truth and life", "the light of the world" . . . we can conclude that he was with each description referring to a different entity/ personage Tomorrow, Sat Guru Maharaji may claim that one of these terms actually referred to him!

I loved the Grail Message, i still love it, it answered virtually all my questions about life and existence.

Till this day, i only hold back from becoming an adherent on account of the claims as to the identity of the Authour. Let's face, it he more or less equated himself with God. This, and its endorsement of the very dubious Trinity Doctrine, to my mind, are the archilles-heels of the Message.

Cheers and thanks for sharing.