₦airaland Forum

IjeBos:
That's if you trust the numbers.
I watched some of the scenes from that election and I would have 0 confidence in those numbers.
Fraud seemed to be rampant. Was confused how anyone was allowed to get close enough to a ballot box to steal it.
But that is my limited view from the US.
Incidentally, I'm generally in Naij over Xmas/New Year. This year, debating how close to the election I should stay before I take off.



The electoral college is a remnant of a slavery past. It was part of the 3/5s compromise created to appease slave owning states. It gave them dipropionate power because of the slaves they owned but that couldn't vote.

You can't have the senate and the President both elected by indirect representation. One has to be through direct representation so that the minority doesn't end up ruling the majority. I would be fine with the senate being 2 seats per state if the Presidency is elected via a popular vote.



The issue is that the majority doesn't vote for the President. A lot of democratic voters don't in fact vote because Democrat states go so Democratic, people feel their votes are inconsequential because Dems will win the electoral college vote anyhow.
And now because the minority party controls the white house, Supreme court and Congress, they can allow things like political gerrymandering which makes it even less democratic and more controlled by the minority party.

The US is in a crisis moment and I'm sure even our most Stallworth global allies have lost patience at what Trump's reelection meant for and about the US.

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The Electoral College System is not a fair system. The very fact that it holds the possibility for the party with less popular votes to win the election is an absurdity.

cococandy:
Such an imbecilic post.

Thank to immigration the U.S. economy has grown substantially in absolute terms from roughly $542 billion in 1960 to over $29 trillion in 2024

In 1960 we didn't have the unrivaled tech giants, the biotech leadership, the medical innovation and what not. Immigrants prop up americas health care system and tech industry (at the minimum)

Why do these racists want to go back to an era of mediocrity so badly?

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I keep wondering how many of them know for example that Steve Jobs was Syrian.

basilico:
The pope you mean? The pope is not the Bible. I don't know many areas that the Pope's blocked.

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Really?

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1. The Immobility of the Earth
The most famous conflicts, such as the Galileo Affair, centered on the idea that the Earth moves. Critics used several "proofs" from the Old Testament to argue that the Earth is fixed in place.

Psalm 104:5

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."
This was perhaps the most cited verse against Nicolaus Copernicus and Galileo Galilei. If the Bible says the Earth cannot be moved, the heliocentric theory (Earth revolving around the Sun) was viewed as a direct contradiction of divine revelation.

Psalm 93:1

"...The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved."
Similar to Psalm 104, this was used to provide a physical "fact" about the stability of the globe.

1 Chronicles 16:30

"Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved."

2. The Motion of the Sun
To the observers of the time, the Sun appeared to "rise" and "set." Scientific theories suggesting it was the Earth moving instead were countered with verses describing the Sun’s movement.

Joshua 10:12–13

"On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: 'Sun, stand still over Gibeon...' The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day."
Martin Luther and other religious leaders famously argued that for Joshua to command the Sun to stand still, the Sun must have been the object in motion to begin with.

Ecclesiastes 1:5

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."
This verse was used to support the Ptolemaic system, which claimed the Sun orbited the Earth daily.

3. The Structure of the Heavens
The concept of "the firmament" was often used to push back against atmospheric or astronomical discoveries that suggested an infinite or vacuum-filled space.

Genesis 1:6–7

"And God said, 'Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.' ...God called the vault 'sky.'"
Early interpretations suggested a physical dome (the firmament) held back literal water. When astronomers began suggesting the heavens were fluid or empty space, it challenged the literalist view of a solid cosmic structure.

4. The Origin of Life and Humanity
With the publication of Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species in 1859, the focus shifted from physics to biology.

Genesis 1:26–27

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...'"
This was (and is) the primary verse used to deny Evolutionary Theory. The argument is that if humans share a common ancestor with primates, they cannot be uniquely created "in the image of God."

basilico:
He asked a stewpid question.

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TV01 asked the exact same question referring to Islam and you agreed with him.
How can you not see your own double standards.

As in!

This is mind bending!

Christians invented a lot of stuff without being hindered by the biblical teachings. Unlike Muslims who are forbidden to go into some areas.

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The exact reverse is also true - Muslims invented a lot of stuff and Christians were also forbidden some areas at a time.

I have learnt a lot about you in the last 48 hours and I thank the heavens for it. Its gonna save me loads of time and energy in future.

Gerhards:
I started paying attention to Nigeria politics from 2023 and I noticed they usually use those phrases in court mostly during political cases and I think they are doing it intentional to create confusion among the people, then carried out their evil corrupt judgment's .

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The courts are not honest.

For example we all knew the supreme court would delay its decision on the Rivers State State of Emergency until the six months elapsed. On top of that, they completely avoided addressing the central issue as to suspension of democratically elected officers.

basilico:
The Bible doesn't have prohibitions for dogma or studies that conflicts with it.

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Stop lying okay?

And why by the way do you ignore the repression of science and scientists by the church which is history?

basilico:
The bible is not a science journal.

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I feel like tearing my hair out. So you know this but then demand examples of inventions arising from Islamic study?

basilico:
If we talk colonialism, the west was after raw materials. The colonialists developed their territories including building railways that still stand today. After direct colonization, they embarked on neo colonization which is not 100% exploitation.

Muslim hordes on the other hand took the wealth, captured and sold slaves , took over the land , spread Islam by force and exacted heavy tolls on the conquered.

Would you rather live under Spanish or Portuguese conquerors or Muslim ?

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Enjoy.

basilico:
Indians invented the zero.

Indian mathematicians, such as Brahmagupta (around 628 CE), were the first to treat zero (shunya) as a number in its own right, not just a placeholder. They developed the rules for adding, subtracting, and multiplying with it.

2. The Preservation & Expansion (The Islamic World)In the 9th century, Persian and Arab scholars—most famously Al-Khwarizmi—studied these Indian texts.They adopted the Indian system because it was much more efficient than their own systems or the Roman ones.Al-Khwarizmi wrote a famous book explaining how to use these "Hindu numerals."

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Same point as in post above - many cultures invent the same things separately and originally. This is a known fact.

Besides I gave you a list of one hundred things. You can only weakly try to mention a few. Do you want me to increase the list to one thousand? Because as I said, what I extracted and posted for your benefit is only the tip of an ice berg.

basilico:
JC societies were not hell bent on expropriation of wealth others had created.

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That you can say this is dumbfounding . . . . . well not any more. You turn out just as bad a benalvino3 and the rest. Who can take this joke of a statement seriously in light of the history of colonialism and western empire in general. No one. Not a single literate person can take this statement without laughing himself to tears.

Romans knew about geometry and arithmetic.

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Again, one of your difficulties is a failure to understand that many inventions or ideas were thought of by different people in different cultures at different times without interaction, and sometimes even simultaneously (such as with the Theory of Evolution).

GloriousGbola:
https://mediapolicycenter.org/mpc_initiative/3-5ths-of-a-democracy-americas-original-sin/




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage

'Judeo Christian' values that only gave voting rights to land owning white men

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You are ever blessed sir.

basilico:
Hamas and Boko Haram are living Islam in exactly the way of the prophet and the early Caliphates.

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This discussion was about the golden age of Islam which no one says was at the time of the prophets or the earliest Caliphs.

Long and short,out of Islamic education ,you don't expect anything substantial.

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Except in the golden age of Islam which is the reference point for this discussion.

basilico:
Me and TV01 are stating that no worthwhile innovation can come out of a society whose core tenets are anti education.

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Unlike Isis/ Boko Haram, etc - in the golden age of Islam, Education was prized. So there is a difference.

Israel is a functioning society ,well established .If they plan to expand territory it will be out of security.

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This is tiresome. The map of the land they plan to seize is on the uniforms of the IDF.

GloriousGbola:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

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Bless you again.

TV01/basilico - note that the basis of much of today's western society - democracy - did not have a Judeo-Christian origin. It originated in a pre-Christian Greek setting.

In fact I dare add that democracy is at complete variance with Judeo-Christian systems of governance - a thing which we also see in GloriousGbola's last extract on the presumption of the Divine right of Kings.

GloriousGbola:
The divine right of kings, in European history, a political doctrine in defense of monarchical absolutism, which asserted that kings derived their authority from God and could not therefore be held accountable for their actions by any earthly authority such as a parliament. Originating in Europe, the divine-right theory can be traced to the medieval conception of God’s award of temporal power to the political ruler, paralleling the award of spiritual power to the church. By the 16th and 17th centuries, however, the new national monarchs were asserting their authority in matters of both church and state. King James I of England (reigned 1603–25) was the foremost exponent of the divine right of kings, but the doctrine virtually disappeared from English politics after the Glorious Revolution (1688–89). In the late 17th and 18th centuries, kings such as Louis XIV (1643–1715) of France continued to profit from the divine-right theory, even though many of them no longer had any truly religious belief in it. The American Revolution (1775–83), the French Revolution (1789), and the Napoleonic Wars deprived the doctrine of most of its remaining credibility.

The bishop Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet (1627–1704), one of the principal French theorists of divine right, asserted that the king’s person and authority were sacred; that his power was modeled on that of a father’s and was absolute, deriving from God; and that he was governed by reason (i.e., custom and precedent). In the middle of the 17th century, the English Royalist squire Sir Robert Filmer likewise held that the state was a family and that the king was a father, but he claimed, in an interpretation of Scripture, that Adam was the first king and that Charles I (reigned 1625–49) ruled England as Adam’s eldest heir. The anti-absolutist philosopher John Locke (1632–1704) wrote his First Treatise of Civil Government (1689) in order to refute such arguments

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Bless you.

Take note, TV01/basilico

basilico:
I added this map after you posted.
What innovation would you have expected from ISIS. This is how leadership in that Islam golden age aspired for.

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I also added to my post above clarifying that expansion is actually one of the catalysts of development -

DeepSight:
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This here is one of the problems you have. No society does the bold. History and development are the result of a massive interaction and fluid flow of ideas, innovations and developments which build one piece upon the other and from one society to another in one season after another through travel, trade, wars etc.

So both you and TV01 are wasting my time when you point out that very interaction and fluid flow as grounds to claim Muslims invented nothing.

As for the red, it is actually one of the catalysts for development.

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Nonetheless I am not sure it is fair for you to use ISIS as the benchmark.
You would make no mention of the Greater Israel Project would you, notwithstanding that its map is on the uniforms of the IDF and covers parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia?

basilico:
I'll refer to ISIS. Living Islam the way it's described in the hadeeths. Using walkie talkies , Twitter , Photoshop and every other modern invention .
What you think they would have invented. You can claim they were being bombed right left centre ,hence couldn't build a stable society. If the were not being attacked they had global expansions . Divides the world into wilayats ( provinces or districts) they intended to capture.

If the world had not ganged up against them, their efforts were geared towards conquering territory , implementing Sharia law. They were charging jizzya, a tax on mom Muslims living among them.

So when I say the Islamic system is retrogressive look no further than ISIS. Or Boko Haram. Nothing world changing can come out of them. Years later they would claim to have invented stuff like Artificial Intelligence . (Maybe for kamikaze drones)

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I have shouted myself hoarse on this thread and elsewhere that Islam is backward. This doesnt mean there was no time when Muslim nations were doing very well in scholarship and led the world in much forward thought and education, not least in medicine, mathematics and other sciences. That is what is referred to as the golden age of Islam and I have been particular that its not a matter of those developments leaping out of the Quran.

aswani:
Per the text in bold, I am also sure you now know the reason I worded what I said in the manner I did.

It was a summary of LLM's, not a deep dive or an attempt at one, based on what the poster I responded to said. You needed to put the whole conversation in context instead of just picking a sentence I wrote.

As it happens and to respond to a point you made previously, I think AI can be as useful and as useless as the person searching for information wants it to be. The Garbage in Garbage out factor still exists and, whilst Grok or whatever is now getting better with the addition of links to results when you do Internet searches, still high in my own personal opinion. Way too high!

I also wasn't specific on Grok in my posts as you are, I was referring to LLM's of which there are many variations.

My general point on the uselessness (or untrustworthyness) of "AI" can also be further butressed by the fact that there are currently digital images flying around all over the Internet. You can "generate" a picture of Super Eagles winning a world Cup or of Peter Obí voting for APC. Garbage in, garbage out as I said.

Finally, you are wrong in your inferring multiple results can't be produced when you ask questions of an LLM, very wrong actually. You can of course frame your question in a way that it produces one answer, produces a different answer to a slightly altered question and of course produces multiple answers.

I was hoping this post would be short and sweet as I know I might be wrong on a lot of things but not on this one, once again, in its proper context.

Anyway I shall now get off my soapbox as I am not even an expert on LLM'S.

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I actually agree with what you have written here. People can frame a question in a specific way to get a specific kind of result.

basilico:
Deepsight.
Tell me how an expansionist civilization will innovate stuff on its own.

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If you know this, why did you parrot and agree with that absurd statement of TV01 that only Judeo Christian societies invent things?

Tell me what innovation that society will bring . If an inventor has to check with Islamic teachings to validate his discovery what you expect?

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This sounds as though you dont know for how long scientific discoveries and breakthroughs were repressed and shut down because they didnt align with what the Church thought scripture taught. I mentioned Giordano Bruno and Galileo Galilei.

basilico:
Deepsight.
Tell me how an expansionist civilization will innovate stuff on its own.

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This here is one of the problems you have. No society does the bold. History and development are the result of a massive interaction and fluid flow of ideas, innovations and developments which build one piece upon the other and from one society to another in one season after another through travel, trade, wars etc.

So both you and TV01 are wasting my time when you point out that very interaction and fluid flow as grounds to claim Muslims invented nothing.

As for the red, it is actually one of the catalysts for development.

Double0h7:
She looks old for 42!

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She's just obese.

aswani:
Read my original post again on the matter again, read it slowly and clearly. I was a lot more careful with the words I used than you thought.

I have given you a hint with the text in bold as to where you are wrong in your inference.

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Alright.

So I have gone back and read again as you requested.

The only difference I can see between what I said and what you said is that you said if you tell Grok X. While I said if you post anywhere on the internet X.

I am sure you know the reason I said that. It's because AI models like that scan the internet for information related to questions anyone may ask them.

Nevertheless let's keep to what you wrote. Namely that if you tell Grok X, it will vomit the same X verbatim to anyone who asks that same question as per what you told it. This is simply false and cannot be the case. To start with, one million people may have "told it" one million different things about the question being asked. So ab initio it can never be true that it will simply answer based on what one person has "told it" at some point in time.

aswani:
Humour me and tell me how LLM's work! You don't have to use my example.

Then look at the poster I responded to and defend their reliance on AI based on what they posted.

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Well first, let's be clear about one thing. I have no idea whether that Amupitan post is real or fake and I am not discussing that.

Yes, these models are Language Learning Models, Grok is a Large Language Model - that does not infer that it works in the simplistic way you suggested. If it did, it would be useless.

Per your suggestion, once anyone writes anywhere on the internet that I am a goat, if you ask Grok today if I am a goat, it will confirm that I am a goat.

That's simply not the case. It will compare and contrast all or most of the relevant information about me and deliver the most likely truthful results while placing appropriate disclaimers.

aswani:
Quick lecture about Grok, it is based on an LLM which means what you teach it to say is what it will return.

So if I tell it, "the poster with the moniker angelboy01 is a President Tinubu supporter" , next time anyone asks "who is angelboy01", it will correctly tell me "angelboy01 na President Tinubu fan".

The link I sent you is the actual debunking of the nonsense about Prof being on X by INEC.

But feel free to believe what you want, after all, you Obidients still shout stolen mandate.

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This is not the way Grok works. Rather in the scenario you described it may mention that someone has once claimed that he is a fan of the president. It will add a disclaimer pointing out that that is not proof.

TV01, basilico, contd...

Sub-Saharan Africa
Ancient African civilizations pioneered metalworking and astronomy.

91. Iron Smelting (Nok and Central Africa)
92. The Dogon Star Charts (Astronomy)
93. The Lebombo Bone (Mathematical tally stick)
94. The Ishango Bone (Early calculator)
95. Great Zimbabwe Architecture (Dry stone masonry)
96. Inoculation (Practiced by the Akan and others before the West)
97. Deep-Sea Vessels (Mali Empire exploration)
98. Fractional Math (Rhind Papyrus roots in Nubia/Egypt)
99. Ancient Metallurgy (Haya people’s high-temperature furnaces)
100. Complex Urban Planning (The Walls of Benin)[/color]

.

TV01:
All advanced scientific discovery and technological innovation came from and continues to come from historically JC nations - the phone, TV, computers, satellites, motor vehicles, planes etc.

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Please answer the question specifically the same way you phrased it rather than this broad and vague escapist response. Tell us what just one invention which is owed to Christianity and and which would not exist but for Christianity.

Besides this, are you seriously claiming that all the inventions of mankind arise exclusively from Judeo Christian backgrounds?

FOr real TV01, one last time, tell me this is what you are saying.

I hope not because nothing could be more illiterate.

The JC ethos see's all men as created in the image of God. Fostering equality and individual liberties. This drives the pursuit of learning and research, leading to advancement and progress. It demonstrates Gods order and rationality in creation, engendering the pursuit rational inquiry and scientific discovery. Only the culture that arises out of this this ethos has proven capable of doing that. Nothng from the MAW or SSA.

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Jesus Christ of Nazareth. So an educated man actually believes that only Judeo Christian Cultures invent things?

Na wah.

This is beyond me.

Nope. Christianity was never any f those things. Christianity was abused, or at best misinterpreted by some, but when practised in truth delivers prosperity and well-being.

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Every religion can say the exact same thing about its dark past.

Till date, there are some incorrectly exegeted texts and downright non-scriptural practices. Tithing for example. But that is not Christianity.

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Unlike this, I presented you with Bible verses that clearly advocate the murder of witches and slavery.
You are yet to address those verses.

It's interesting how the one thing no historically JC country or contemporary community practices or makes a case for slavery. It's always been the opposite when the text is read and applied as intended. Christianity which you dishonestly claim advocates slavery, has it nowhere in view.
Unlike the MAW and SSA.

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Amazing. So you are actually saying that Christian Nations did not cite the bible to justify slavery.

Look, I am tired. I cant keep debating anyone who says the opposite of history.

I will just leave this here for posterity - I extract -

-------------

Historically, the Bible was frequently used as a primary tool by pro-slavery advocates, particularly in the American South and during European colonial expansion. The arguments generally relied on specific interpretations of both the Old and New Testaments to frame slavery as a divinely sanctioned or "natural" institution.

Here is a breakdown of the primary biblical evidence cited to justify slavery:

The "Curse of Ham" (Genesis 9:20–27)
This was perhaps the most influential scriptural justification used for racialized slavery.

The Narrative: After the Great Flood, Noah becomes drunk, and his son Ham sees him naked. Noah subsequently curses Ham’s son, Canaan, stating, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."

The Interpretation: Pro-slavery theologians argued that Africans were the descendants of Ham/Canaan. By claiming this lineage, they framed the enslavement of Black people not as a human choice, but as the fulfillment of a divine decree.

Abrahamic Precedent and the Patriarchs
Advocates pointed to the lives of the biblical patriarchs to argue that slavery was compatible with a holy life.

Ownership: Proponents noted that Abraham, considered the "father of faith," held enslaved people (Genesis 14:14, 21:9–10).

Divine Instruction: They cited Genesis 17, where God instructs Abraham to circumcise everyone in his household, including those "bought with money from any foreigner," which was used to suggest that God recognized the legality of purchasing human beings.

The Mosaic Law (Leviticus 25:44–46)
While the Bible contained laws protecting Hebrew servants, pro-slavery writers focused on the distinction made regarding "foreigners."

The Text: Leviticus states, "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you... you can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life."

The Argument: This passage was used to prove that "chattel slavery" (treating humans as inheritable property) was explicitly permitted by God for non-Israelites.

New Testament "Household Codes"
Pro-slavery advocates argued that if Jesus or the Apostles intended to abolish slavery, they would have said so explicitly. Instead, they pointed to instructions for how enslaved people should behave.

Pauline Epistles: Verses such as Ephesians 6:5 ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear " ) and Colossians 3:22 were frequently read from pulpits to keep enslaved populations submissive.

1 Peter 2:18: This verse instructs servants to submit to their masters "not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

The Epistle to Philemon: In this letter, the Apostle Paul sends a runaway enslaved man, Onesimus, back to his master, Philemon. Pro-slavery proponents used this as "apostolic proof" that the legal rights of slaveholders must be respected.

The "Providential" Argument
Beyond specific verses, a broader "Providential" argument emerged in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Civilizing Mission: Many clergy argued that slavery was a "mercy" because it brought "heathens" from Africa into contact with Christianity, supposedly saving their souls through forced labor in a Christian land.

Historical Note: It is important to recognize that during the same era, Abolitionists used the same Bible to argue the opposite. They focused on the "Imago Dei" (the belief that all humans are created in the image of God) and the Exodus narrative (God liberating the Israelites from Egyptian bondage) to demand an end to the institution.
- - - - - -

Its a waste of time listening to anyone who denies that verses in the Bible were used to justify slavery.

budaatum:
It is my own belief that Those Who Read Only One Book Shall Die, but I at least know they are îgnorant.

You seem to have discovered the reason I ignore them much. It's like arguing the British, Chinese, Aztecs, Japanese, etc invented nothing until Christ was born, or as Yoruba me would put it, they have not seen the content of my father's trousers so think their father's content is bigger.

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Omo, Budaatum, this one shock me die.

I have learnt a huge lesson from this one.

One should not devote or assign any serious time or thought to what they post. Its a true waste of the mind and spirit.

basilico:
Deepsight. My very first post here as basilico is me asking Muslims if We should use the hadeeths or the Quran when debating them. If you quoted the hadeeths they would say oh it's not saheeh ( authentic ) you need to know Arabic ,you need to understand classical Arabic if you do ,then finally only the Quran is true ,.... They had like a list of 19 ways to shut you down.
They all chickened out after I showed them that Islam without hadeeths is incomplete. That was in 2013

By then quite a number of muslims used to post a lot on the Christian section,it was a very lively debate sub forum , until they decided to push all Islam debate questions into the Islam section Then made you literally recite the shahada before posting there .
We would post topics in the Christian section ,a mod would move it to the Islam section and kill it

.

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You and TV01 truly succeeded in numbing me and giving me a cold shock. I truly had goose pimples reading what you both asserted. Nothing could have prepared me for such statements.

I still got banned, I am not even through with the lists I extracted, I still have to post inventions from the pre-Colombus Americas and Africa.

Sad I should have to produce these lists - which are only the tip of an ice berg. Because anyone should know that the whole of human learning is a process where one thing is built upon from previous knowledge of another thing, a pyramid from the base to the pinnacle in which we stand on the shoulders of giants and all of humanity has been involved.

basilico:
Deepsight is well answered.
Subjugation is what led to grand mosques built on top of other shrines. Don't forget they was built with slave labour who were treated in the most degrading way possible.

Defining Retrospective Appropriation as the process where a dominant power rebrands the existing achievements of a conquered people as "theirs" to justify their superiority or "civilizing" mission.
This best explains most Muslim golden age achievements.

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What he wrote was lamentable ignorant gibberish.

Do you support his position that only people of Judeo Christian backgrounds ever invented anything?