₦airaland Forum

nlMediator: So after many pages and wasted hours, not one person can still point ONE error in HAGIN's message? And here we have people that are quick to judge. Lord have mercy.

And Hagin has become holy scriptures... smhl

It is no wonder Bidam and others come here and spew the rubbish they believe; it is Hagin that is influencing all of that.

Nonsense!

If the prophets had prophesied before and it didn't come to pass, what makes you feel this one will come to pass.

My friend, you are on slippery grounds. Reason: you have sold the direction of your life to men and not the Spirit of God. You need to know your God for yourself and learn to follow him. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had moving issues; did you hear them resort to prophets? Call your wife to order. Both of you should get down on your knees and agree and pray and see what God will do in your lives.

The surest way to error and disaster is to allow other lead you. All you need to succeed in life is in you already. Take out time, wait on the Lord, read scriptures, reason deeply and trust God. Take whatever steps come to your mind at that point because it will be God leading you. He is faithful.

Pls beware of these charlatans that call themselves men of God.

Tgirl4real: God bless!

Next topic plzzzz....

Oh should more issues be resolved like this on nairaland.

And they all lived happily ever after!!!

shdemidemi: You did a great job here bro.

God bless you.


As for the judaisers, I hail you lot as well.

Thank you Demi

christemmbassey: like Goshen360 will say, I AM CHRISTEMMBASSEY, i endorse this beautieul piece 100% and i add, the day the Naija judaizers will REPENT, Naija will change for good for ever.

That you Christembassey. We miss you on this front O. You should make out time and chip a word or two. How is the church, your family and the twins?

shdemidemi: I did not bother to open the thread, the brother is walking East-ward.

East-ward

I have been resisting the temptation of referring him to Yaba left.

The guy is incoherent...

@ Kun

Wetin person go do now. Lol!!!

I had to write all that to help this MostHigh chap but if after now he doesn't change. I leave him to himself

Alwaystrue:

I decided to lend a voice to the questions asked for the benefit of our learning.

Welcome

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Those led by the Spirit are under grace.

Correct so far.

Those that walk in the flesh will go against the law because while they try to 'DO', the 'WILL'(right heart) is not there (as the bible says God WILLS and DOES in us His great pleasure). While they might not commit adultery physically, because the heart is not renewed the end up committing it in their mind and still cannot please God.
b. already answered, those who are not led by the Spirit but by the flesh.

Still following

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
As long as a Christian walks in the flesh, he is subject to the law of sin or is 'under the law'.

It is a ministration of death to minds that are HARDENED thus they will not be able to understand the TRUTH in the laws of God. That is why Jesus had to come as He is the way, the truth and the life. And He spoke the truth of His Father's commands, giving it the right expression. Anyone who believes in Him will understand the truth
2 Corinthians 3:14
14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ

Hebrews 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it

Now you are wrong.

Your position on this law of God is wrong from the beginning. Your position that the ten commandments cannot be the law of Moses but the law of God is a wrong premise. The laws given through Moses are law of God, from God but conveniently called the laws of Moses in scriptures because it came through him. It is all of this laws that have been abolished. You say that because God spoke those laws to Isreal on the mount makes them his laws; and any other law in the OT is from Moses and not from God and that is why though the law of Moses is done away with, the laws of God remain. Well I say every law written in the OT is the law of Moses and those are the ones done away with.

God spoke the law of circumcision to Abraham in Genesis 17; we could say, from your premise, that because God said it that law is God's law not Moses'. But a study of Paul's writing shows that Circumcision is done away with the coming of Jesus. So it is not just God saying something, it is the fact that there is a new law the believer must follow and interprete scripture rightly, what you call the law of God cannot but be the law of love which Jesus says sums up all the laws of Moses. When we walk in love, we fulfill the law of God - the law of Moses.

Also the laws of moses as stated in 2 Cor 3 is a ministration of death. The law of moses in Romans 8 is said to be the law of sin and death: the soul that sinneth shall die! That is what the law that ministers death is all about. It has nothing to do with hardening or not hardening the hearth. We are free from that law today as long as we are born again: we are under the law of Spirit of life. There is no cause and effect under this law'; under this law you don't sin and die; rather under this law, the Spirit of life leads you to greater glory of life as you behold Christ, changing from glory to glory. There is no condition of death: we have life!!!

Also:
2 Corinthians 2:15-16
15 Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing. 16 To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this?
The ministry of death continues for those who refuse to believe God. So I hope you can understand the these scriptures and see the hidden meanings behind them.

Yes, for non Christians. No, for believers.

Love is the fruit of the spirit and is the very nature of God as God is love so whoever receives Him into His heart has fulfilled the law as God wills and does HIS GREAT PLEASURE in the life of a believer. The written/voiced (commandments) are summed up in the Spirit/life (love).

It is funny how in one hand you accept that the law the believer is called to keep is the law of love and then in another hand to think there are still some laws in Moses, called laws of God, that must be kept. This is not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Thanks

You are welcome

In extension to this I wish to add that Paul did not live as a Jew anymore after his conversion or better still, after his calling to preach the gospel of grace. Why do I put forward this position? Paul would never had had the moral ground to rebuke Peter for acting hypocritical if he himself was equally guilty. What was Peter guilty of? From the laws in the Torah, and as exemplified by the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, the Jews were not to have any dealing with Gentiles. God showed Peter in a vision in Acts 10 that this had changed. The implication was that Peter could go into a gentile’s house and minister to him. In reality one may conclude that Peter understood God’s message to him then in letter alone; having practiced Judaism for so long, it was difficult to put that vision into practice continually. So he arrives in Antioch and noticing that the believing Jews were not there (as in Jerusalem) he felt free to eat with the gentile Christians. The minute these Jews appeared he stopped eating with them; so much so that Barnabas too followed suit. Paul rebuked him. What this implies is that Paul was still eating with the gentiles. Hear Paul in Galatians 2:

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

While every verse quoted above is worth expatiating on, notice what Paul says of Peter in verse 14: “I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”. Paul is saying here that even Peter, at least while he was at Antioch, was living as a gentile. And it is also possible to posit from this scripture that Peter had always lives like a gentiles, at least after his grasp of the doctrine of grace. From Paul’s denunciation here we can posit rightly that PAUL HIMSELF LIVED LIKE A GENTILE.

In chapter two he talks about some of this circumcision folks coming in to spy out their liberty in Christ: what was this liberty; the fact that they no longer lived as Jews but as gentiles. The truth of the matter we can deduce from this passage is that Paul lived the message he preached. He was sent to the gentiles and part of the message to the gentiles was that they needed not keep the Mosaic laws anymore to be saved; he preached that message and lived that message. Hear Paul again in the epistles to the Philippians:

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Here Paul reels out his Judaistic credentials but how does he sum it all up: dung – shit (excuse my language), that is the perfect expression for it. In Galatians he had called the law weak and beggarly but here he calls it dung! Why is this so? Because there are two righteousness he is discussing here: a righteousness by the law and a righteousness by faith in Christ. Comparing the two, one is but dung to the other. You cannot serve two masters: you cannot be pursuing a righteousness of the law and also that of faith; one has to go for the other. It is safe to say that Paul no longer lived as a Jew after his grasp of the doctrine of grace. The righteousness of the law, the life of Judaism, Pauls says here he has counted but loss for Christ sake.

Now, MostHigh quotes a passage in Acts were it was said that Paul went to offer a vow at the instance of James and the other apostles.

Acts 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

He claims from this passage that Paul lived like a Jew. That passage is easy to explain with two verses found in 1 Corinthians 9:

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

From this passage we can learn that Paul was free from pleasing men; he exercisedhis full liberty in Christ to live and preach the gospel of grace. But so as to win the Jews he lived like a Jew and subjected himself to the law. Jerusalem, at the time Paul visited, was in uproar. The allegation made against Paul that he taught men not to live under the law WAS TRUE. James and others’ suggestion was the sort of “wisdom” Paul had discussed about in the above passage. His main aim of going to Jerusalem, was to testify about Christ to the Jews, as he would later do to Ceasar, so that the Jews could have their very last warning from God to accept Christ or be overthrown (as it happened in AD 70). So Paul took up the vow and went into the temple to make the sacrifices, to be under the law, all in a bid to be acceptable to his people so that he could have the chance to tell them about Christ.

Apparently, it did not work. But they got the testimony they needed to hear. And Jesus confirming this testimony stood by Paul subsequently and told him the same way he testified of him before the Jews, he was to do the same before Caesar (Acts 23:11). Any sound bible scholar will realize that the message of that section of Scripture was not that Paul lived like a Jew but simply that Paul did everything, including coming under the law, to witness to his people.

Another example to buttress this point is Paul taking Timothy and circumcising him. He did this so that Timothy’s message before the Jews will not be rebuffed. But notice that he did not circumcise Titus (Galatains 2:3). So if Paul kept the law strictly, he would have circumcised Timothy and Titus but he did for one and not for the other. It is called walking in wisdom.

From this few words of mine, I hope I have been able to convince you, MostHgh,s and not confuse you that Paul did not live subject to the law; Paul was not a Judaizer.

Thank you for enduring the long essay. I am done for now. You may respond as you wish.

continued...

An in depth study of Galatians will reveal much more than these things enumerated above.

My point in this piece is not to discuss what the gospel of grace is but to show that the gospel that Paul preached was not the ones the Judaistic Christians preached and it was a source of offence to these people, for which Paul suffered through out his ministry.

Paul did not take it kindly with these people. Because in the bid to walk in love and discern the body of Christ, we are not to condemn other believers because they are weak (Romans 14), but the fact that Paul used the strongest terms possible against these people showed that these people were not Christians but the enemies of the gospel.
In Galatians, Paul suggested that any one who wanted to circumcise others to be saved should not only circumcise himself but totally cut off his own manhood:

Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Paul talked about how some people came in to secretly spy on the liberty they enjoyed as Christians in Galatians 2

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

In Phillipians 3, Paul used the strongest word ever to describe the sect of the circumcision: dogs

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Paul emphasized in Colosians 2 so many times the phrase “let no man…”; to drive home the point that people of the Judaistic religion must be resisted at all cost:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbathdays: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

In verse 18, the apostle leaves a word for those who, like today, are always coming up with a new revelation of heaven and hell. He says it is the outcome of their fleshly minds.

In Titus 1, Paul says the mouth of these Judaizers should be stopped

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretiansarealway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Paul contended these men to the end. I have an intimation that the thorn in the flesh God gave Paul was the opposition to the gospel he was going to be preaching and these opposition, though from many sources, came primarily from the Judaizers of his time.

Answer to question 2:

Paul was not a Judaizer

None of us was alive in the time of Paul and so are left to decipher how he really lived from what he wrote. The assumption is that he was a man of truth and was not writing one thing and living another thing. Permit me to quote what I had written on Paul on the other thread “Unveiling Modern Day Judaizers”:

Paul the apostle can only be described as a remarkable man when we realize that he confronted Judaism both in the world and in the church. Jesus had given a brief remark on the kind of suffering this man’s ministry was going to encounter when he was speaking to Ananias at Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15-16).

From Paul’s own testimony, Paul was born a Jew. He grew up and was discipled under the strictest form of Judaism – he was a Pharisee. He was taught by Gamaliel; a man of such profound knowledge of the Torah and who was held at the highest esteem by the Jewish leaders that a word from him got the release of Peter and John from the murderous grip of the Jews in Acts 4. So Paul was well taught.

Paul, however, had an encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, as he was persecuting Christians with authority from the Jewish leaders. He was born-again, and scripture records that immediately he began to preach Jesus whom he had been persecuting. Paul’s account in Galatian 2 shows that sometimes between the period of his conversion and the time he visited Peter and James, Paul was on a retreat in the wilderness and their God revealed the gospel of grace to him. Jesus himself had preached bits and pieces of this gospel in his earthly ministry but because he was born under the law and had to be subject to the law so as to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for those of us who will subsequently come to have faith in Him, Jesus could not preach the gospel of grace (completely) as he would later reveal to Paul (this is the only way to explain why Paul’s message differed from Jesus’ without discussing the doctrine of dispensation). Jesus had however told the disciples that he could not teach them everything now but will reveal things to them bit by bit (John 14:26).

The gospel of grace was part of the revelation that Peter got when he had the encounter with God on the top of a house subsequent to his meeting Cornelius in Acts 10. Though what Peter understood was that the gospel had been sent to the gentiles also and was not to be confined to Jews, alone. The fact that Peter’s ministry was limited to the Jews shows that he did not completely grasp the gospel of grace like Paul did and even if he did, he could not pay the price to preach it.

But Paul paid that price. Why? Because God had given him the grace to do so, (1 Corinthians 15:10).
The gospel of grace as revealed to Paul was revolutionary. The core point of it was Justification by grace through faith (alone), Ephesians 2:8-9. The implication of this gospel meant that everything Moses gave as law was defunct and obsolete Galatians 3, 2Corinthians 3. There has been a change of law from the law of sin and death to the law of Spirit of Life, Hebrew 7:12; Romans 8:2. Rather than be led by law written of tablets of stones, the believer was now to be led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8:14.

This gospel preached by Paul was against the Judaizers both in the Church and in the world. The latter part of the book of Acts gives an account of what Paul experienced in the hands of worldly Judaizers. But if his contention was with those in the world alone, it would have been a small matter. But Paul also had to contend with Judaizers in the church.
The main object of contention with the Judaizers of Paul’s time was the question of whether gentile believers were to be circumcised or not. In Acts 15:2 it is recorded that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with these group of people. The matter was taken to the Jerusalem church and the verdict read:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
The case seem to have closed there, not until again we see Paul in Galatians 2 saying that he had to withstand Peter to the face because he was acting hypocritical. What was the matter? Some Judaistic Christians had come from James, and Peter was now beginning to withdraw from the gentiles Christians who prior to those people’s coming, he had been eating with them. Following this rebuke, Paul laid down the eternal foundations upon which the gospel of grace is founded on in the book of Galatians:

[b]1. There is only one gospel: the Gospel of Grace, any other is an accursed thing. And anyone who preaches such is accursed. Galatian 1:8,9
2. Justification is by faith(Galatians 3:6-7) and the subsequent life that the believer lives must be lived by faith, Galatians 2:20. Nothing in the law could secure a man’s salvation, v.21.
3. To start in faith and then to think you can secure your salvation by doing anything else in addition to it is foolishness. Galatians 3:1-3
4. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 (including the curse of not tithing in Malachi 3) and the blessing of Abraham comes to the believer by faith and not works, v.14
5. The purpose of the law was to reveal what sin is and the utter sinfulness of man that tries to keep it, and thus our need of a savior. Galatians 3:19-24
6. The law is weak and beggarly. Galatians 4: 8-9
7. God calls the believer to stand in liberty and not bondage to the law. Galatians 5:1
8. Those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
9. Christ fulfilled the law and those of us who obey the law of love, have fulfilled the law also; for all the law is fulfilled in the law of love. Galatians 5:14
10. The call on all believers is not to keep any aspect of the law but to be led by the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit; for when we do this we are not obliged to keep the law. Galatians 5:22-23[/b]

Answer to question 1:

DISPENSATIONS

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Galatians 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed… 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Galatians 2: 1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain

I will not be treating dispensations in an exhaustive manner (my readers may refer to Google or other authorities on dispensation for better understanding on that doctrine) but simply to answer your query of why folks like us who preach a gospel of grace always quote Paul. It is simple. Jesus the Son of God had a purpose in coming to the earth, this purpose was to save man from his sins (Matthew 1:21)

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

To achieve this people he was brought to life through a woman and born to the lineage of David so as to fulfill the prophesy that he was to be called the Son of David. Born in the lineage of David made him a Jew in every aspect. This mission of saving man from his sin was to be fulfilled in two manners: 1. The one to save humanity must obey perfectly the good laws a righteous God had given His people. A law that the people never could keep. Jesus kept this law perfectly and fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law. That is why he could say he never came to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus was born under the law and kept the law perfectly. 2. Those who will enjoy what Christ has done can only do so by be faith – an extension of God’s grace.

Bible teachers call the period Jesus lived on earth in the flesh the Christocentric dispensation. This is if we divide the whole of time to three dispensations: the theocentric, the Christocentric and the eschatological dispensations. Under the Theocentric dispensation we have the age of the gentiles (the time of Abraham and his calling out to follow God) and the age of Isreal (mainly the time of Moses and afterwards); the Christocentric dispensation has the Hypostatic Union (the time Jesus lived in the flesh) and the Church age (from the moment of Christ ascension until the catching away of the church); the eschatological dispensation will include the time of tribulation and the Millennium. We are in the church age presently.

Under the Christocentric dispensation, we have Jesus’ coming and the purpose of his coming: this period is termed the Hypostatic Union and it has the unique characteristic of being the only time in all dispensations that law and grace came into union. This was necessary so that Jesus could fulfill the law perfectly in one hand and grant the benefit of this fulfillment to men (you and me) in the church age who will come to Him by faith. Thus the scripture concludes that the law was given through Moses but grace and truth came with Jesus Christ (John 1: 17). The grace of God through Jesus is then extended to those of us in the church age. So there is no need for us to follow and keep the law anymore since it has been fulfilled in Christ; we only appropriate this fulfillment by faith in Him.

Because Jesus lived in the time of the law and was to bring grace to the church, he could not preach the gospel of grace as revealed to Paul or it will nullify his purpose of coming to earth: to fulfill the law. So Jesus words are scripture and Paul encourages us to allow Christ words to dwell in our hearts richly (Colosians 3:16) but Jesus words must be seen in the context of which they were stated and thus the need for sound bible teachers to rightly divide the word of God, keeping to the truth of Scripture. The Christian is not again held bound by the law Jesus operated under and which he came to fulfill.

Paul the apostle was chosen by God to be the harbinger of this unique gospel of grace. He made it clear in Galatians that this gospel was his gospel revealed to him by God and there was to be no other. This gospel is the message the church in the church age was to be built upon and it is no mere accident that Paul’s writing constitutes two-third of the New Testament: God providentially orchestrated this.

So any sound Bible scholar must understand Paul; must preach Paul; all under the auspices of the Holy Spirit and ofcourse subject to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Paul in 1 Corinthinas 12 said that no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit of God; he was not just talking about mouthing such talk - anyone can do that. He was saying no one can preach Jesus the way he is doing it except the Spirit of God gives such a man utterance. That is the reason why I cannot be quoting Paul and be accused of fighting against Christ. The two are not congruent because there is no single passage in all of Paul’s epistle were he disparaged Christ. He exalted Jesus to the end and so do we.

The reason why we quote Paul is because Paul had the message for the church age. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles like us and whatever he had to say was relevant to us. It makes sense to us state succinctly that if we preach and quote Paul, then we also do what Paul did. Thus leading me to answer the next question: Paul did not live subject to the law; Paul was not a Judaizer.

@MostHigh
You raised two questions and I will endeavor to answer them accordingly. :
1. Can you tell me why you are quoting Paul’s words and only Paul’s words to fight against Yashua and NOT DOING AS PAUL DID?
2. And even after you have seen Paul as a JUDAIZER, as you put it, why are you still raging and imagining vain things?
I will answer your question under two topics: Dispensation and Paul was not a Judaizer. I have learnt on nairaland.com that rather than answer questions piecemeal, it would do one’s readers great good to do a thorough job at answering questions so as to silence any gainsayer that may arise and to make one’s position to be as clear as the noon day. So please endure the essay below in answering MostHigh prodding:

I agree with U wholly and completely

Have U seen the thread by MostHigh? The guy seems to be enjoying his new monicker: Judaizer!

Is there any further proof that Bidam and MostHigh are Judaizers, than this thread?

I will answer ur question when power is restored here.

[quote
author=Alwaystrue]I am careful about labelling people anyhow like calling them Judaist. If
you have a message, preach it. This thread I think is sufficient to
know what needs to be known about the word of God, His commands and
grace to help us as we need it. Atleast people have learnt the 10
commandments were given direct by God in His own voice and @Bidam....[/quote]I was very careful about who I labelled a Judaist in that thread. I tried to pass a message (whether U have the capacity to receive it is another matter) using verifiable biblical references. I made a case against sects like the circumcision who were bent on upholding outdated Mosaic laws.

The question that remains unanswered is this: do we have people like this in modern times? Do we have Judaist on nairaland?

As for insults and such likes - when men have run out of ideas and capacity to reason properly they must surely resort to such things; by now you should know I am not that kind of a person.

@Alwaysttrue

I am appreciating your position more and more. I see where you're coming from: it is still is problem of how the believer must view sin.

I invite U to the thread on Judaizers I talked about above. Hopefully before the end of the day, I will discuss the place of grace and Christians overcoming sin in that.

But please appreciate God's grace so much and think less about your sin and others sin; because it would rob U of God's blessing - the blessing of grace.

@MostHigh

Thanks U for ur honesty. U have been alleged and have pleaded guilty. You have what law keepers have: YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.

Your contribution to this thread is no longer necessary.

Over to Bidam and OLAADEGBU are U Judaizers too?

I have Mr Goshen. And we find out the root of this offence of the cross.

I look fwd to ur contribution and that of Demi too.

I invite all sincere seekers of gospel truth to consider the questions raised on this thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1377135/unveilling-modern-day-judaizers

Thank you.

So over to three individuals on this forum: Bidam, OLAADEGBU, MostHigh and any other person who has been accused of being a Judaizer on this forum, from the aforementioned or from scriptures, show to me (us) that the allegation laid against you is false.

Prove to me (us) in the light of the scriptures that you are not to be called by that name you so much detest: JUDAIZER!

Or forever hold your peace on the matter and bear your ignoble label.

I conclude this discuss (for now) with the topic itself:

Modern Day Judaizers

If any of us had lived in the time of Apostle Paul, there is likelihood we also would have opposed his teachings. That is why I think Peter said his teachings are difficult to understand. Take for example, the circumcision that he was so vehemently opposed to. God himself had given the ordinance of circumcision to Abraham before the coming of the law and had instructed that it was to last to all generations in Genesis 17:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

But here was Paul saying that anyone who allowed himself to be circumcised had fallen from grace. How then are we to reconcile Paul teachings with the whole of scripture: First we must understand that God in his wisdom chose Paul as an apostle (maybe in replacement of Judas) to propagate this gospel. Also, there was nothing Paul preached that the apostles who had witnessed the Lamb in the flesh did not know. That they did not preach it is another issue. And lastly, anyone who witnessed Paul’s ministry, the grace on it, the signs and wonders, and the sheer fact that God was with this man could not but agree that what he was teaching was sound doctrine.

Today we have a whole lot of folks who are still opposing Paul, long after he has left. I came across one Femi Aribisala who feels that Pauls writings are not scripture but mere letters. Paul himself had warned that in the last days men would no longer endure sound doctrine. The reformation of the sixteenth century gained it strength from the writing of Paul the apostle – so that in Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Roman Catholic Church was confronting Paul again. Everywhere institutional church is created, there is a head on collision with Paul’s writings. Why? Probably because Paul’s teaching were not suited for organized church but for every day Christian living.

For example, Paul’s writing did not support tithing. And tithing is the only means of supporting organized church today. No where in all his writing did Paul ask anyone to pay tithe to a church or to himself. But modern day Judaizer would have us believe that tithing is an ordinance of God. When they say pay your tithe, Malachi 3: 8-10 is quoted:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If we assume the scripture quoted above was not addressed to Levites and Priest (though some of us contend it was) and actually take it as God’s word, how do we reconcile the above scripture with another already quoted above (Genesis 17) where God was saying that Circumcision was to be an eternal ordinance in Israel and anyone who doesn’t practice it would be cut off? The truth is that whether Malachi 3 is addressed to Levites or Israelites or Abraham does not matter; if the doctrine Paul preached made it clear that gentiles where not to be circumcised, it is easy to conclude that gentiles are not to pay tithe either.

Now the tithe doctrine is even less arguable than circumcision even though both of them are pre-law and both of them were practiced by Abraham (By the way Abraham paid tithe only once). But tithing was never a subject for disputation in the time of Paul because most Jews of that time where not tithing. The tithe that God describes in Malachi, as well as other part of the Old Testament, was 10% of agricultural produce. And by the time of Jesus most Jews were not agriculturist so the tithe was not an issue. Even Jesus was never said to have tithed because Jesus was not a farmer but a carpenter.
So Paul again finds himself contending modern day Judaizers who are bent on ensuring that redeemed gentiles pay tithes to established church institutions.

Modern day Judaizer are also, always, dictating to their church members, the rules they must keep and not keep. Unfortunately the women folk, who have very little to say in church administration, are the ones that suffers the most. “You must not wear ear-rings”; “You must not wear trousers”; “You must not wear make up”; “You must not wear tight fitted clothing’s”. They could easily compare these rules and regulation to Colossians 2:20-22 to find out the scriptural basis of what they are doing. It does not end there. Modern day Judaizers have turned the church of God to their own by posting lists of things that make an individual a bona fide member of (their) church. Recently a prominent Pentecostal church, with a large mission base on Lagos-Ibadan express way announced to its members that anyone who doesn’t tithe would no longer enjoy the church support during wedding and other ceremonies.

The core doctrine of modern day Judaizers is that church must regulate how its members live and behave: thus the need for the rules and regulations. If this is not done, church members will bring reproach to the organization or they will sin and loose their salvation.

At the center of this thinking is ignorance of the doctrine of grace that Paul the apostle taught and lived. If this message is however shared with these people, they malign it and say people are being encouraged towards lawlessness. There are many ways to answer this but the best is to paint the picture of our Lord Himself. If Jesus, the owner of the Church, had such proprietary kind of mentality towards the church, he would not have left 11 unschooled fishermen to propagate his gospel after him. But the chief proponent of a gospel of grace that encourages freedom and trust in God, through the Holy Spirit, is Jesus Himself. He knew that days after his ascension the Holy Spirit will come and use mere, weak, infallible and untaught men to turn the world up side down for God.

This is the sort of mentality the church should have: if men have been truly converted, the church should trust God to establish those men. The God that is able to save, is also able to keep safe: genuine believer cannot loose their salvation. This God is able to also justify, sanctify, and eventually glorify those he has saved. When the church takes up the duty that only God can do, they turn themselves into modern day Judaizers.

My point in this piece is not to discuss what the gospel of grace is but to show that the gospel that Paul preached was not the ones the Judaistic Christians preached and it was a source of offence to these people, for which Paul suffered through out his ministry.

Paul did not take it kindly with these people. Because in the bid to walk in love and discern the body of Christ, we are not to condemn other believers because they are weak (Romans 14), but the fact that Paul used the strongest terms possible against these people showed that these people were not Christians but the enemies of the gospel.

In Galatians, Paul suggested that any one who wanted to circumcise others to be saved should not only circumcise himself but totally cut off his own manhood:

Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Paul talked about how some people came in to secretly spy on the liberty they enjoyed as Christians in Galatians 2

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

In Phillipians 3, Paul used the strongest word ever to describe the sect of the circumcision: dogs

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Paul emphasized in Colosians 2 so many times the phrase “let no man…”; to drive home the point that people of the Judaistic religion must be resisted at all cost:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

In verse 18, the apostle leaves a word for those who, like today, are always coming up with a new revelation of heaven and hell. He says it is the outcome of their fleshly minds.

In Titus 1, Paul says the mouth of these Judaizers should be stopped

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Paul contended these men to the end. I have an intimation that the thorn in the flesh God gave Paul was the opposition to the gospel he was going to be preaching and these opposition, though from many sources, came primarily from the Judaizers of his time.

Paul and the Judaizers

Paul the apostle can only be described as a remarkable man when we realize that he confronted Judaism both in the world and in the church. Jesus had given a brief remark on the kind of suffering this man’s ministry was going to encounter when he was speaking to Ananias at Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15-16).

From Paul’s own testimony, Paul was born a jew. He grew up and was discipled under the strictest form of Judaism – he was a Pharisee. He was taught by Gamaliel; a man of such profound knowledge of the Torah and who was held at the highest esteem by the Jewish leaders that a word from him got the release of Peter and John from the murderous grip of the Jews in Acts 4. So Paul was well taught.

Paul, however, had an encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, as he was persecuting Christians with authority from the Jewish leaders. He was born-again, and scripture records that immediately he began to preach Jesus whom he had been persecuting. Paul’s account in Galatian 2 shows that sometimes between the period of his conversion and the time he visited Peter and James, Paul was on a retreat in the wilderness and their God revealed the gospel of grace to him. Jesus himself had preached bits and pieces of this gospel in his earthly ministry but because he was born under the law and had to be subject to the law so as to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for those of us who will subsequently come to have faith in Him, Jesus could not preach the gospel of grace (completely) as he would later reveal to Paul (this is the only way to explain why Paul’s message differed from Jesus’ without discussing the doctrine of dispensation). Jesus had however told the disciples that he could not teach them everything now but will reveal things to them bit by bit (John 14:26).

The gospel of grace was part of the revelation that Peter got when he had the encounter with God on the top of a house subsequent to his meeting Cornelius in Acts 10. Though what Peter understood was that the gospel had been sent to the gentiles also and was not to be confined to Jews, alone. The fact that Peter’s ministry was limited to the Jews shows that he did not completely grasp the gospel of grace like Paul did and even if he did, he could not pay the price to preach it.

But Paul paid that price. Why? Because God had given him the grace to do so (1 Corinthians 15:10).

The gospel of grace as revealed to Paul was revolutionary. The core point of it was Justification by grace through faith (alone), Ephesians 2:8-9. The implication of this gospel meant that everything Moses gave as law was defunct and obsolete Galatians 3, 2Corinthians 3. There has been a change of law from the law of sin and death to the law of Spirit of Life, Hebrew 7:12; Romans 8:2. Rather than be led by law written of tablets of stones, the believer was now to be led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8:14.

This gospel preached by Paul was against the Judaizers both in the Church and in the world. The latter part of the book of Acts gives an account of what Paul experienced in the hands of worldly Judaizers. But if his contention was with those in the world alone, it would have been a small matter. But Paul also had to contend with Judaizers in the church.

The main object of contention with the Judaizers of Paul’s time was the question of whether gentile believers were to be circumcised or not. In Acts 15:2 it is recorded that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with these group of people. The matter was taken to the Jerusalem church and the verdict read:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The case seem to have closed there, not until again we see Paul in Galatians 2 saying that he had to withstand Peter to the face because he was acting hypocritical. What was the matter? Some Judaistic Christians had come from James, and Peter was now beginning to withdraw from the gentiles Christians who prior to those people’s coming, he had been eating with them. Following this rebuke, Paul laid down the eternal foundations upon which the gospel of grace is founded on in the book of Galatians:

[b]1. There is only one gospel: the Gospel of Grace, any other is an accursed thing. And anyone who preaches such is accursed. Galatian 1:8,9
2. Justification is by faith(Galatians 3:6-7) and the subsequent life that the believer lives must be lived by faith, Galatians 2:20. Nothing in the law could secure a man’s salvation, v.21.
3. To start in faith and then to think you can secure your salvation by doing anything else in addition to it is foolishness. Galatians 3:1-3
4. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 (including the curse of not tithing in Malachi 3) and the blessing of Abraham comes to the believer by faith and not works, v.14
5. The purpose of the law was to reveal what sin is and the utter sinfulness of man that tries to keep it, and thus our need of a savior. Galatians 3:19-24
6. The law is weak and beggarly. Galatians 4: 8-9
7. God calls the believer to stand in liberty and not bondage to the law. Galatians 5:1
8. Those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
9. Christ fulfilled the law and those of us who obey the law of love, have fulfilled the law also; for all the law is fulfilled in the law of love. Galatians 5:14
10. The call on all believers is not to keep any aspect of the law but to be led by the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit; for when we do this we are obliged to keep the law. Galatians 5:22-23
An in depth study of Galatians will reveal much more than these things enumerated above.[/b]

UNVEILLING MODERN DAY JUDAIZERS

Jesus and the Judaizers

A cursory study through the New Testament will show that the gospel of Jesus Christ had enemies from its inception. First century Palestine was a deeply religious one and the world Jesus was born into had some individuals who had constituted themselves as religious authorities: they were the Pharisees and Sadducees – sometimes seen as teachers and scribes.

The gospel Jesus preached stood in stark contrast to that which the religious leaders of his days taught. While Jesus preached a message of inner renewal and sanctification, these men emphasized externalities. While Jesus encouraged frugality and faithfulness with money, the Pharisee and Sadducees were said to love money and encouraged people to give money to the synagogue over and above taking care of their families. While Jesus encouraged liberty amongst his followers, these people were known to tie up heaven burden on people that they could not carry themselves. While Jesus taught his disciples about the kingdom to come, these men knew nothing but earthly things. While Jesus taught with authority and in the power of the Holy Ghost, these men were clouds without rain. It is important to note that Jesus did not have kind words for these men.

Hear him in Matthew 23:

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

For those who make a case for not criticizing men of God, they should hear what Jesus said of religious leaders of his day above.

This position that Jesus took did not go without a price. The religious leaders saw to it that Jesus was killed. In fact as early as Mark 3, the Pharisees were already planning to kill Jesus:

6. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

They succeded at it eventually and the Lord of glory was crucified. When Paul discussed Jesus death in 1 Corinthians 2, he called those who crucified Jesus “princes of this world”.

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

The phrase “princes of this world” could be interpreted “rulers of this world” – the political, religious and demonic rulers of the world. The princes of this world will include Pilate, Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and the devil himself. In their morbid jealousy and hatred, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had teamed up with satan to bring about his demonic work.

We all know now that God was using all this to birth his eternal purpose on earth in sending a savior to mankind to redeem us from our sins. But because the religious leaders of that time were so demonic compliant, they were ready tools in the hands of the devil.

I introduced this piece with Jesus’ experience with the Judaizers of his time so that I can proceed into what Paul himself experienced with Judaizer of his own time before finally discuss the Judaizers of our time. We will see that except in very minor details, the judaistic religion has not changed since the days of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

TBC

Tgirl4real: Lol @ Obadiah

and lol @ d back n forth.

Yea, Obadiah is back. Why was I thinking he was Mosthigh.

@ Obadiah, in a nutshell, Jesus' is coming to liberate 'we' Jews from the oppression of the Gentiles (Caucasians).

How nice?!

Again, T girl, U crack me up but this time really badly I startled my daughter.

I was just going to likened MostHigh with Obadiah when U pulled the words out of my mouth.

Lol!!!

I should get back to finishing this discuss U know...

Hmmm... Kun the Pastor wrote that essay. Nowadays U don't have time to write like this anymore O.

Return thou to thy first love my brother. Great article. I shall be hearing it on my Facebook wall ASAP.

Thanks for referring me to it.

Thank U Pastor Kun. I will read it ASAP.

@Demi

Thank U for that train of discussion. If MostHigh is truthful he should agree with U by now; and I think he does considering there's been no reply from him for close to 5 hours now

@Bidam

You have made ur decision. In the thread I intend posting soon I shall prove to U that Jesus, Paul and all who follow there teachings are not Judaizers. I will show U that the pharisee, saduiccees and d circumcision were the Judaizers and I will leave U to determine whether or not U are a Judaizer.

@OLAADEGBU

I read ur last post from ur PHD pastor - apologies to Goshen. I agree with everything written there. I too worry over the easy beleivism around and has criticized it on this forum. But...

My problem with DLBC is how U people get all the words right but fail in spirit. When U say people should bring forth fruit meet for repentance, are U d one to judge whether they are doing so or God? What are these fruits: dressing like a widow?

The seal of God stands sure. Only God knows those who are His.

MostHigh: For sure they will jeer you on till the end.

And what is that supposed to mean? Do you want to assume the devil's job: accuser of the brethren?

@ Bidam

I would have appreciated it if you had taken my post and done a line by line analysis of it. Because if you had done that, you would have found where I showed you from 2 Corinthians 3 that the law of Moses, including the ten commandments, have passed away. Also I explained my position of keeping the law in the NT from Romans 3:31, that this must be founded on the foundation of no works - justification by faith; for which I, like Paul, provided an example in Abraham and David, from Romans 4. But just in case you missed it all. I will endeavor to take this post of yours and repeat myself. If after this you choose not to hear, I will lump you up with OLAADEGBU AND MostHigh - the un-redeemable Judaizer(BTW, expect my soon coming thread titled DEFINING MODERN DAY JUDAIZERS - Case in point OLAADEGBU, MostHigh and please don't joing the list)

[quote author=Bidam]

Stop talking nonsense here,this is what i actually asked Goshen in the righteousness thread which he failed woefully in responding.You can respond if you can inline with the scriptures i quoted and stop going round in circles.

So far, despite all that I have said, rather than respond you choose to lump it all as "nonsense" - there is no better way to avoid being shown the truth than to discard it with a wave of hand.

I actually quoted the Pauline letters which you love to quote so much as per fulfilling the law,which wan con be error for this matter again? Ok,here are the scriptures once again.

Okay, bring them on:

we do not nullify the Law through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law”( Romans3:31)

What law is paul referring to here?

I have explained this in my last post; you may check it out. It is proof that you didn't read that post.

Romans 8:4

New International Version (NIV)

4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And this was my interpretation of the scripture above in blue "Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law" or do you have a contrary opinion? please share in line with this scripture so i could be edified.

Two things can be seen from Romans 8:4: A righteous requirement of the law and those who live by the Spirit and not according to the flesh. The righteous requirement of the law is what the law was set out to achieve. Perfection. Holiness. Righteosness. Paul has shown in Romans 3 that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That was the aim of giving the law in the first place: to show that NO ONE could meet up or reach or attain the righteous requrement of the law. No one could be perfect. Holy like God nor sinless. One man however achieved this: JESUS CHRIST. So what? The righteous requirement of the law is meant in those who walk by the Spirit not by the flesh. Romans 8:4 started from verse 1, where we have been shown that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Why? Because they follow a new law. Not the law of Sin and death. The law of Moses that a man was surely to break and will lead ultimately to death but the Law of the Spirit of Life, which had no cause and effect. It give life through the Spirit. The law of Sin and death had cause and effect: sin and die. This one no cause and effect: Have the Spirit, have life.

So, when we follow this law of Spirit of life, the righteous requirement of the law, that could not be attained by keeping Moses, is given to us, via the perfect righteousness of Jesus, we have an imputed righteousness, our sin are covered, We put on his righteous garment, we are sinless and spotless before God; because God sees us through Jesus.

And it is only via this means that the other righteous requirement of the law, which is sanctification and holiness, is actually attained. Read the last verse of 2 Corinthians 3. We transformed from glory to glory. That is the foundation on which true holiness is achieved.

So, Bidam, that scripture is not saying what you are saying. We have been justified by faith yes, but it is not automatic and be now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law. The impression you are giving is that being saved equals keeping the law perfectly. NO. I am saying being saved and justified, we earn another man's perfect works. Have that depositied in our account eternally; then we begin to walk into the whole process of sanctification and holiness. A process of growth that only God and the individual involved have dealings with - it is no other person's business.

I also went ahead to capture the Law a christian should fulfill,which Paul was talking about by quoting these verses of scripture in Romans 13:8-10.

[i]Romans 13:8-10

New International Version (NIV)


8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as [/i]yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law..


So we are commanded to love one another as love is the fulfillment of the LAW .Please show me where i teach error abeg

See. You have actually answered your own question. The law is fulfilled in Christ and even Jesus gave us a breifing on the summary of the law which Paul too has quoted above. There is an interesting scriputre in Galatians 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law

If we combine Paul's words in Galatians with Jesus' summary of the law, we can say this: that the law is summed up in these two - love God; love your neighbour. This love is shown by Paul via the bearing of the fruit of the Spirit. When one is led of the Spirit, under the law of the Spirit of Life, and is bearing the fruit of the Spirit, there is no other law to keep: there is no law.

So far, as far as that last scriputre is concerned you are in line. The problem with those who continue to uphold Moses' laws as something Christians to keep is that many people are very insecure and would want to act as police or even god to others. A man is saved by Christ; leave Christ alone with the man to lead him through the whole path of sanctification. God is sufficient in himself; he does not need anyone to help him with rules and regulations. So you are not teaching heresy as long as you are emphasizing the need for Christians to walk in love.

Bidam, you will do well to listen to Goshen, there are no ceremonial laws, civil laws or such like. Pentecostal theologians created that to justify the keeping of some aspect of Moses' laws, chief amongst them is tithing. Every thing that came through Moses is done away in the Cross of Jesus. "The law was given through Moses; but grace and truth came with Jesus Christ".

I end this by stating this: there are laws for Christians to keep but they are not Moses. These laws include many of the admonisions of Paul in the practical aspects of his epistles (the latter parts); they also include the law of love - bearing the fruit of the Spirit and last and most especially the laws written on our own hearts. The latter is what it means to be lead of the Spirit of God. He would instruct you and show you the path that you must walk. This is the whole basis for maturity. Those under the law are considered Children and servants. Sonship is not being under law but being able to be led by the law giver himself - the Holy Spirit.

Good night.

sharia sitting arrangement... that is a new one and it gave me a good laugh