₦airaland Forum

Gethsemane Prayer Ministry, Eleyele, Ibadan, has such facility but it depends on your location in the country. If Ibadan is not too far you could try it out.

We had our honey moon at a camp in Osogbo area: Camp Young, Ede, Osun State. It is a very cool place for such spiritual exercise.

And then for those who are in Lagos, I would assume that one in the plethora of camps on LAG-IB express should be able to afford you a place for such a thing.

^ Alright. Okeyz. I have heard your point. I cannnot receive that doctrine though. It is too high and lofty for me. My questions for you are finished.
,
Except some others want to question you further, we will continue with One Corinthians four...

@Deep Sight

Has this discuss been abandoned?

Zikkyy: Just in case you are not aware, some of our Christian brothers & sisters (including pastors) went with Moses as well.

mcfynest: IT'S SIMPLE, IF THE OP BELIEVES IN GIVING THITHE LET HIM GO ON, IF HE DOESNT BELIEVE LET HIM GO ON EITH SUCH BELIEVE, HE SHOULD ONLY REMEMBER THAT ON THE LAST DAY, HE WILL GIVE ACCOUNT TO GOD AND NOT MEN. WHATEVER YOU DO IN CHURCH OR AS A CHRISTIAN, IF YOU ARE DOING IT WITH FAITH GOD WILL REWARD YOU. PLS READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER 14 PLS TO GET INSIGHT TO WHAT I MEAN

It was about a week ago while studying scriptures that God opened my eyes to Romans 14. I call that chapter the end of all tithe argument. The first thing I grasped from that chapter is that there are some doctrinal issues in Christendom that is not worth sweating about. They are just as Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, incidentally he was talking about tithe, not weighty issues. On such matter Paul advices that he that does them; to the Lord he does them. He that does not do them; to the Lord he does not do them. Whoever does or does not do them is not condemned. This applies to tithe too. He that tithes and truly does it to honor God, to God he does it and he will be blessed. He that does not tithe; and believes tithe is extinct and obsolete and that if he tithes he is keeping the law and fallen from grace; such an individual does it unto the Lord. And, believe it or not, he will be blessed because he does it in faith.

Now the tone of your first comment is why I asked you the question. You said at the last day, every man will receive what is due. What such a statement means to me is that though in one hand you allow liberty to tithe or not; in another hand you choose to judge those who do or who do not. Your position will be known if you truly can answer this question: Do you tithe? And why do you or do you not tithe?

Now I brought up the question of Romans 14 for a number of reason.

1. Majority of those who tithe do not belong to the category Paul is talking about. Those who tithe and belong to these category are those who are truly honoring God with their finances with a basic minimum of 10%. The majority of others are doing it to keep church rules; to be blessed; to make heaven; to be acceptable to Pastor; and out of sheer ignorance. Those who do this are not doing it in faith and are sinning against God.

2. Romans 14 births the reality behind the tithe: there is liberty to tithe or not to tithe. The question of paying tithe is heretic because it makes nonsense of what Jesus has payed for on the cross; it return us to Moses who demanded that tithes be payed to levites. ETC. If it was a question of giving tithe; then there is the allowance made to do it or not to do it. Many leading churches make the paying of tithes prerequisite to full membership of their assembly. This is sin. People should be permitted to decide whether to give or not to give.

3. Romans 14 permits us to define the tithe for what it truly is: a means of sustaining the levithical priesthood that is now obsolete and thus the tithe is also obsolete. If anyone chooses to give a tenth of income or whatever, such an individual is embarking on a free will offering; however, a constant one.

So I have tried to paint the true position of Romans 14: a liberty to do or not to do in regard to not-weighty matter of Christendom. If this liberty is changed to compulsion, we have bondage in our hands.

This also leads us to the reason why the tithe is opposed by many today: abuse. If Christians are permitted to choose to do what they want with their finances, this abuses will reduce. The lifestyle of our pastors today, fueled by inordinate collection of tithes, is not congruent with the way leaders of the NT lived. So, some of us argue that the tithe be shown for what it really is; Christians should be permitted to give as God leads them; and let us see what becomes of our fatted pastors (many of whom are fatted likes calves to be killed).

okeyxyz: You are still defining holiness according to the judaizer's moral code(The Law), that's why you make efforts to agree with them. But Paul(revealing the messages of Jesus) teaches expressly that the gospel is meant to be against this moral code that judaizers judge you by.

Why would Paul declare that he was not ashamed of the Gospel of christ if not that gospel was regarded as a thing of shame(lawlessness) and against the values of tradition? Surely it couldn't be in conformity with morals of the judaizers. Why would Paul declare that the gospel is an object of "offense"(Sin) to the jews(Judaizers) and foolishness to secular people?? Everything Pul preached was in absolute opposition to the moral code of the judaizers...

If you as a christian go about hoping that your values would appeal to and be applauded by the world(judaizers and secularist), then you must not understand anything that Paul has preached. I'm not saying you shouldn't respect other people's values, laws and traditions; No, you respect them for the sake of peace and co-existence in society, but don't make them your own christian doctrine.

maybe I continue in another thread, if you choose to open one.

These threads are difficult to open these dayz. At the risk of derailing this thread let us thrash out this issue with you here and right now. While I accept much of what you say on the gospel of grace, the words I have a problem with in your post are these ones

okeyxyz: All of Paul's messages were always about absolute grace without the law, but he also acknowledges that people would have varying degrees of understanding and adoption of this grace, so he gave permission for those who still had a conscience for the law, allowing them to practice grace only to the extent that their conscience permits. Things like the fear of food offered to idols but Paul himself has no fear of idols, believing that all food is approved by God for consumption regardless of any idols. Also he permits them to marry and own one another, though he himself chooses not to marry (note: I did not say he chose to go without s.ex), knowing that marriage is a tradition of the Law, not of grace[/b] But he himself maintains the absoluteness of grace and urges his students to be followers of himself just as he is a follower of christ.

.

Are you saying that though Paul did not marry he had liberty to have sex. What is fornication then?

Also I have seen your post on some thread were you say something like you are not married but can have sex and there is no sin with that. One could not take you up on that then without giving those judaizers a reason to glory. But now that you we are here you can help clarify your position.

Also, the reason why we walk in holiness is to please God and to glorify him in our lives not to please men and Judaizers. There are people who take the doctrines of Paul for a licence to sin. Luther called them antinomians. I am hoping you are not one of them.

Pls, Okeyz, clarify your position and then we can carry on with the discuss on one Corinthians four.

@Ubenedictus
Thanks U so much on your contribution. Even where U said U disagreed with me, in a sense we may be saying the same thing. Hope U will go on with us in this discuss.

@Shdemidemi
I appreciate ur grasp of the doctrine of grace but I am uncomfortable with this two or more gospel U talk about. Can U pls open a thread to discuss this matter extensively without detailing this one? We will meet U there.

@Okeyz
Same with U as demi. I appreciate ur grasp of doctrine but this liberty with sex U talk about is not in keeping with holiness O. And this sort of talk is what makes the Judaizers on this forum claim that those who teach grace are lawless. Pls can U explain urself here or better still on a new thread?

To compare Matthew 23:23 to Matthew 8:4 is a excellent step to show that Jesus lived under the law and upheld it. In fact it is his fulfilling the law that releases us from keeping minute aspects of the law and entering into the liberties of sons that allows us to be led by the spirit.

Tithing is obsolete, defunct and gone with the Moses.

^ If U want to prove that benimoore is someone else open a new thread for that. This thread is about U. Answer the question: HOW DID U PHOTOSHOP THOSE PIX?

'A leader's sin is a leading sin' - Pastor W F Kumuyi.

mcfynest: Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Please kindly how this applies to the OP question.

Thus we enter into the meat of this discuss. The reason why I opened this thread. Please notice how far apart verse 8 and 9 are to each other; in fact they are opposite:

1Cr 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Cr 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

When Paul describes the Corinthians here as being rich, full and reigning as kings, there is only one picture that comes to my mind: the prosperity gospel. The health and wealth gospel. The gospel that teaches that Christ would have you rich or die trying (the bolded is my addition). This gospel is not just taught; it is lived out in its full splendor. Large cathedrals, large congregation, exotic cars, king-palaced-houses and homes, etc. They even use Paul's literal words here: we are kings; we are gods; we are called to enjoy all of God; etc.

Paul contrast these with the lives of the apostles as one set by God to be appointed to death. We catch a glimpse of a bit of this in 2 Corinthians 1

2Cr 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Cr 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Cr 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation.
Cr 1:7 And our hope of you [is] stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so [shall ye be] also of the consolation.
2Cr 1:8 ¶ For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

This are the realities that confronted Paul's ministry. My question: is this a reality that is expected in the life of modern day Christians or this was unique to Paul because Jesus had said of his ministry in Acts 9

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Well, let me answer myself partially, while awaiting other responses: it cannot be because Paul had said that it is the apostles, not just himself, that God has set forth and appointed unto death. Then in 2 Cor 1, he says of all believers that God comforts us in our tribulations. So tribulation is not unique to Paul but is for all believers.

He said of these corinthians, like one could say to modern prosperity gospellers, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you[/b]. In other words , you think you are reigning as kings; I wish you really were, so that we too could reign with you. There is a deep contrast between apostolic Christianity and today's Christianity, and the essence of this thread is that we may discover this and begin to inch more and more to the apostolic way of doing things no matter what it cost us.

I end this section by relating an event that occurred to me recently:

I had the wonderful privilege of meeting a missionary, Dr. David Timm, recently in Lagos. Dr Timm is the founder of a ministry called Lost but not Forgotten. The vision of this ministry is to take the gospel to places in Africa were the name of Jesus has not been heard and were Islam is predominant. They hope to cover much of west africa and trust God to invade north africa with the gospel of Jesus. I had a short meeting with him in his hotel at Ikeja were he showed us video clips of his ministry to the lost.

The stricking thing about this man's ministry is the sacrifice that goes into making a mission to these people. Outside the cost of transportation, medical aid, logistics, etc, he also brings along professional friends like him to the mission work. I heard testimonies of conversion from Islam to Christianity, miracles, these people (the Muslims) talking about the fact that they have never heard the gospel at all, etc.

Dr Timm has two PHDs in O&G and pharmacy. He retired recently from these two profession to focus on ministry because of a health challenge, but seeing him I saw a modern day Paul. My friend who introduced me to him says that Dr Timm is a dead man walking: that is his passion for the gospel. Here is a link to his ministry's website http://www.lostbutnotforgotten.org/.

I used Timm as an example of many sound men, serving the Lord in a sacrificial manner, like Paul, but who are generally unknown. I understand, like frosbel, said that the calling may sometimes dictates the challenge that will come with it; and God has so designed everyone to take a certain amount of problems. But verse 8 is an indictment on so much we call church and ministry today.

^ I did get you message. I may return to this issue in the near future.

^ no wahala. Thank God you said it, because I saw you peeping. lol!!!

@Jesusislord85

Notice the bolded and some part of that scripture, the ten commandment itself is refered to as a ministration of death and then brought under the whole title of Moses, that is being done away: why? Because there is a more glorious hope coming in; which is Christ and his gospel.

2Cr 3:7 ¶ [But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:

So to do away with one part of Moses (tithing) while calling on believers to uphold other parts of Moses is confusion at its best.

I do not believe Christians are to be lawless. I have personal laws I keep before me and my God but I cannot impose it on my wife, children or other Chrisitnas becuase they are between me and God.

So my friend, modern day judaizer will continue to carry that tag till they can distinguish grace from law. And live by the dictates of a new law: the law of Spirit of Life; while at the same time allowing other Christians the liberty to know and follow God for themselves.

My position on tithing: it is not a NT injuction. It is obsolete. However, like you, I also think that if believers want to give 10% of their income to support God's work, it is free will offering. The day anyone upgrades this to paying tithe, that person has fallen into error and must be resisted.

Hope I didn't waiste your time, with my epistle?

JesusisLord85: I said believers can pay tithe out of free will, but it is not a requirement, unless your pastor is a Levite. Even Jews today do not pay tithe for this very reason. It is not because it is done away with, it is because there is no priesthood. And I also gave scripture to show that tithe was never money, it was edible.

I appreciate your quick and straight to the point answer. I actually got this from your profile

Tithe has never been money. And SCRIPTURE proves it:
Deuteronomy 14:22-27
You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.

If God accepted money, he would have said, if your tithe is too heavy to carry to the place of worship, turn it into silver and give the money to Levites. BUT he did not. He said exchange it for money, go to the place of worship, and THEN buy food.

Secondly, Abraham simply gave a tenth of the spoils of war, which did not belong to him in the first place. After that, there is no record of him tithing again.
Genesis 14:20-24
"And Abram gave him a tenth of everything. 21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself.” 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have lifted my hand[c] to the Lord, God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I would not take a thread or a sandal strap or anything that is yours, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ 24 I will take nothing but what the young men have eaten, and the share of the men who went with me. Let Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre take their share.”

Tithing (giving a tenth) is good, but it is not some legal requirement.
Let this case be settled, and the false teachers scatter!

I asked the question because the chief error of Judaizers on this forum is tithing. Period. That is how I choose to classify them. But you are one judaizer with a difference. I have followed some of your discuss with shdemidemi; although I find it quite hard to comprehend because they can be long and monotonous sometimes. But I notice you argue against the tithe and then you argue that there are laws for Christians to keep. Are these two position congruent? How exactly do you intend to sponsor your ministry if you don't collect the tithe? (The last line was a joke).

Now this is my position. There are laws for Christians to keep but they are not the mosaic laws. Some of these laws are well documented in the NT. Eg the churches position on marriage (1Corinth 7); Church administration (1 Timothy); Adding or subtracting from scriptures (Revelation 21); etc. There are things enjoined on Christians to do or not to do as explained by Paul in the latter end of most of his epistles; and their are laws of God in the Christians heart that the Spirit of God leads him to do or not do (Hebrew 9). Outside of these, there are no laws for Christians to keep. And this is the position that those who argue against tithing take: they say that if tithing was so important there would have been some discuss or injunction by Paul or even our Lord emphasizing the fact that Christians must pay tithe. Take the discourse I am having right now on one Corinthians four, Paul suffered so much deprivation: if he had had free tithe to spend, do you think he would have suffered that much? But that is a point for other judaizers, not you.

The laws of Moses, especially the ten commandment, is not binding on Christians. Alwaystrue (where is she?) argues that the ten commandment are the laws of God binding on all believers. This is what the NT has to say about this (I learnt this from narialand):

2Cr 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Cr 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Cr 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Cr 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
2Cr 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

^ Thank you

JesusisLord85: Yawn. What do you know about Acts 15?

The key is here: "19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

In those days, as is now, it takes over a year to fully convert to the religion. The so-called Judaizers, or the group Paul called the circumcision group were telling the converts they had to follow the whole law first in order to be saved. But faith must come first.

Paul is saying, they should observe those three things as a matter of urgency before going any further, because they will learn the rest as they fellowship in the synagogue where the law is read every Sabbath. Hence verse 21.

Also notice the things he told them to abstain from immediately - they are of the Torah my friend. Of those 3 things there, does the church today even observe these? I see churches here in England serving rare steak, with blood still inside.

Acts 13: And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

You can see how this sets the context. Funny that they were hearing the law, and told to continue in grace. But you and your lawless friends here teach that the law and grace are mutually exclusive. Scripture suggests you do err.
Nobody came to do away with the religion of the Jews my friend.

I believe I have come across quotation on this forum where you have argued earnestly that believers should not pay tithe, using NT scriptures. I want to ask if your position on that has changed or not; so I can know how to reply you. Pls I will appreciate a simple answer and straight to the point.

The problem with many in Christendom is that people are forever looking for directions from others when God has promised to lead us by his Spirit. And that is what leads them to errors.

There is no one size fit all in NT Christianity. I am convinced that no one is called to tithe an income today. Some maybe led to give 10%, as the minimum, as such may be the only means of God getting them to support Christian work. Otherwise people like that won't. But a cursory study of what the tithe is in the OT shows that it was a means of sustaining the levithical priesthood. With a change of law came a change of priesthood and then a change of d means of sustaining it: the tithe is obsolete today.

But what the OP needs is understanding God and knowing how to be led of Him and not what or what not to do.

This thread has all the likelihood of confusing U with d argument for and against tithing. If U do not know God yourself, U will not know what stand to take at the end.

I have heard testimonies of those who commenced tithing and were blessed; some others were not. Some stopped tithing and were blessed; some were not. To base your walk with God on experiences, no matter how palatable, is a sure means to failure. Base your decision on the word of God.

Already you are starting on a wrong premises: tithing to earn blessing on your business. That is a wrong foundation to do anything in Christianity.

Study the word. Weigh the arguments for and against tithing. Pray. Do whatever God leads you to do.

I recommend U study this course: www.tithing101.com, as a sound position against tithing. You can read and weigh it against what the evangelist scared U into doing.

I owe my progress in life to God and not to tithing or not tithing. I stopped tithing 5 months ago and can say my finances has improved. But my experience does not matter. Seek God and do what is best based on sound judgement on ur path.

Goodluck.

I am happy that the use of the word JUDAIZERS to describe some folks here on NL religious forum is striking the right chord and evoking some response. Maybe it will help them think their theology.

The OP is an unrepentant Judaizer; along with as many that subscribe to his teachings. His own is worse in that he is a HYPOCRITICAL LYING JUDAIZER.

Who is a Judaizer? Simple. Men and women who confuse law with grace. Individuals who in their bid to be holy resort to doing and works to find justification before God. They glory in what they do; they court God's blessings by keeping obsolete laws of the OT. etc.

There is no way one can read Acts 15; Phillipians 3:3; and the hundreds of scriptures that showed Paul contending with sect of d circumcision and not see the similarities with these guys.

These folks despise the Pauline gospel and know nothing of dispensations.

Unfortunately, a whole lot of Christendom today, especially Pentecostals, find themselves in this category. An emergency situation really...

^ I am Drummaboy and I endorse every word Goshen 360 wrote in the last post of his.

ayoku777:

Is this about the Deeper life issue; or the Church's
departure in general from the Apostolic standard or just random thoughts
from Paul's letter to the corinthians? I'm yet to understand the
direction of the thread, so I don't want to comment off point.

Following closely!!

It is not about deeper life. I only made reference to them. Yes random thoughts and exposition on this section of Paul's letter.

We look forward to ur thoughts on them.

I agree with Kun, NO church is following apostolic ways strictly now but is it possible for we to have one that approximates to it?

I thought Shina Rambo was dead

And BTW I cannot open the link you placed there as source

Thanks Tgirl and flourish G. And yes, Floursh, I didnt pay any tithe to be alive. In fact, my wife kept saying if you had died, your gainsayers would have had a lot to say but praise to God I am alive and well. And will live long enough to fulfill God's calling on my life.

BTW, Tgirl, I read your post somewhere you were replying Goshen and it just cracked me up with laughter

Hehehehe

Goshen, you are a 'wicked' saint.

grin grin grin

I am following you now. I am family section guy too but have become caught up with religion for now; with the hope we can pull down some strong hold and then I could return to family section - because we are all family people.

To the person who says Goshen is being proud, I do not think so. I believe there is something that he is trying to extract out of the most "holy" OLAADEGBU.

I find it interesting to note that OLAADEGBU wants people to believe what he posts on this forum, but he finds it had to enter into any simple dialogue with another person. If he doesn't have something to hide, why does he not answer a question straight away, following the fact that the person he is talking with is answering his own questions.

I salute Goshen for his patients with him; I hope he has grace to come to the REPENTANCE he is so intent on calling every other person to. Following the fact that outside publishing visions of hell and heaven, OLAADEGBU also majors in Photoshop: https://www.nairaland.com/1362417/olaadegbu-soiling-deeper-life-reputation .

I hope he finds grace to repent of lying.

We proceed

1Cr 4:6 ¶ And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

I wish to focus on the bolded for now. My pastor here talks about the fact that we all start out preaching someone elses message until we have ours. Jesus seem to have preached John the Baptist messages before he preached his own. Paul, then Saul, preached Barnabas' message before God gave him his own. The problem is with those who seem to plateau on somebody elses' message and never change it. I think God uses men to inspire us but we should never remain in that position. For many years, Tunde Bakare was a model for me, but today, I believe I have my own message different from his. That is why it is foolhardy for some people to come to this forum and be asking frosbel what church does he go to (in a bid to discredit him). The fact that Olaadegbu foolishly publicizes deeper life and their program on this forum does not make it a standard for others. In fact he is only opening himself for the criticism that he so rightly deserves. The tragedy of the likes of Olaadegbu is that they will never discover the message God has given them for their generation.

Yes, it is one gospel, but God in his sovereignty has so crafted men in such a way that this one gospel can reach all kinds of men and minister to their personality and needs without offending any. But if we get caged in one kind of model and never evolve, we will never be effective for Christ in our own right.
Thus the need to follow the apostles' admonition here not think of men beyond what is necessary. No one should be a tin god. The litmus test of the fact that we have not made a human being such is the fact that we can openly criticize them in public, the same way Paul welcomed people's criticism of him.

1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?

So these men we tend to glory in are just mere men. They have treasures in earthen vessels. I cannot fathom why anyone would think a General Superintendent should be above rebuke or church discipline because he is GS? What does a man have that he has not received from above? But this is not a critic of the Deeper Life church, it is an expose on the fact that many of us have strayed far from the apostolic ways.

In 2 Corinthians, Paul is seen as someone who is weak bodily but seems to assert himself in his letters. He said he could be strong bodily if they wanted him to. Then when he discussed the false prophets, he said they where the ones that brow beat the people and these people seem to like it that way:

2Cr 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour [you], if a man take [of you], if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2Cr 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also

The apostolic way of life and ministry is not one that glories in anointing, sign and wonders, that lords it over the flock, that brow beats people into line with rules and regulation, that is so high up you cannot approach them until you fill form, etc. The apostolic lifestyle is simple and can be taken for granted.

My question: in the light of these two verses, how far, in your opinion, have we strayed from the apostolic way of life?

Thank you Frosbel for that contribution. You actually hit the nail on the head and it did bring to light much of my suspision. Just to qoute you a bit:

Frosbel:

In my opinion, I do not see many of our so called MOG suffering adversity of any kind, instead they dine and wine with politicians and the rich men who oppress the poor and enact laws that impoverish the masses. Many of them are false prophets and teachers or Demases.

Paul's testimony is a rebuke to our so called Apostles who are more like semi-gods than servants of Jesus.

Goshen 360 brought out a salient point too on the issue of the mystery of the gospel

The ministers of Christ who minister the new testament are stewards or custodians or managers of the mysteries of God. This mysteries is an already revealed one, no longer hidden. Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 1:9, 3:4-5; 1 Timothy 3:9. What is so precious about the 'mysteries of God' that it had to be put or ENTRUSTED to the hands or care of 'ministers of Christ' and what exactly is this 'mysteries of God'? I will save that for another time.

And Shdemidemi call us not to forget the fact that there was an enviroment in which Paul ministered:

Shdemidemi:

In the book of Corinthians, Paul was speaking to people that were deep in pagan custom, a city of brothels and red light district, always busy, they now made fornication as a religious sacrament and profanity was the order. It is similar to our modern day Texas, but with Corinth the main attraction was not casino but temples.

Very instructive.

And Okeyz, reminds us

Where Paul speaks about judgment here, He meant one christian judging another because he has a different doctrine. If a man has a different doctrine, then he has a different calling, ministry and conscience, all validated in the christian principle.

Now this does not mean that ministers of whom you share the same doctrine cannot be judged by you. You both profess the same doctrines and are required to mandate each other to abide by that. If a minister preaches one thing and does not abide by the same, then he must be called-out for his failings and dully reprimanded for unfaithfulness

In much of what we have discussed, there has been little or no disagreement. But this is just an introduction, we are getting to the meat of the discuss. Although Frosbel has mentioned a bit of it but I still desire we look into it. In subsequent discusses, I would postulate my deduction of the verses and then ask some questions. I request, for the sake of uniformity of discuss, that we answer the questions in order. Unfortunately, what makes for a healthy debate, has not arisen so far, because we are mostly agreed. I would have wished to hear from those I refer to as "another camp" - Bidam, Image, etc. But I am sure they will catch with us.

Thanks again guyz.

Goshen360: In fact and truth, just because of this your responses above, I just can't hold it no more than to login and give you 10000000000 LIKES. You see my brother, many Christians don't know how to rightly divide the word. They don't also know Jesus being born under the law had to 'code' the message of the NT so he can then 'reveal' it to the Apostles. Paul would say, 'mysteries REVEALED unto me...'. If it's not coded, what is there to reveal.

I feel ashamed somethings that in this age and time where bible and technology abound, many are still ignorant of rightly dividing the word. I have many teachings for God's on interpreting all what Christ said 'under the law' to the people of God but am tied up with no enough time for me considering work and other activities. For instance, Jesus said, 'you must be born again' under the law but the question is HOW? NOT what being born again is or is not. It therefore the epistles that tells you the HOW to be born again which was coded under the law. The law is a shade and shadow and many walk therein and they stumble at the truth.

The righteousness of Christ by faith is a product of the finished work of the cross and it revealed in Christ AFTER HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION and there EXCEEDS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES....which some still think a Christian had to follow.

Thank God for you bro.

Thank you Goshen. You guys are the masters in this matter but it is important we point it out to the OP as it is obvious he is fledgling in this tithe discusses.

^The righteousness that exceeds that of the pharisee is the righteousness of God, Romans 1:16;17, that can only be obtained by faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all [fn] who believe. For there is no difference;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Your problem, and those of all other tithe paying faithfuls is that you cannot see righteousness beyond what men do. Read Romans 3:21-31, there is a righteousness from God that doesn't come by what U do but by FAITH. Any other work that is acceptable to God is founded on that righteousness.

You are the one ignorant of the righteousness of God and is going about to establish ur own righteousness by what U do, Romans 10.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

So, my dear, my conviction on tithing came via diligent study of scripture and prayer. I was thus led to stop tithing.

However, there is no compulsion on my part. If ur limited understanding of supporting God's work is 10%, fine. But I would forever resist every tendency to compulsion and witchcraft, that is common with tithe advocate.

Read Nerramore's work again: TITHING IS NOT A NEW TESTAMENT INJUNCTION ON GENTLES LIKE US.

Cheers.

shdemidemi:

[quote]You surprise me with the way you paste quotes out of context. You remind me of a white brother who goes to a party with one dance move not minding the rhythm of different songs.

The verse you quoted should be directed to mr kumuyi, I wonder what these people use on their followers.

OLAADEGBU:



These are the kind of folks Paul wept about when he warned us to watch out for those whose only interest is in earthly things and have no desire for the salvation souls. Shame on them!

(Philippians 3:17-20).

I was taken aback by that verse the most holy Olaadegbu qouted because we are not the ones making an argument for

1. Compulsory tithing in today's church
2. Devotion to an institutionalized church, it programmes, and its enlargement.
3. Exaltation of one man, other than Christ, in a cult like manner
4. A call to bondage to church rules and regulations rather than the liberty of Spirit the bible encourages believers to have.
5. An all out war against any one who questions the status quo.

It is those who do these things, contrary to apostolic doctrine and NT Christianity that Paul was referring to in the hallowed scripture that Ola has chosen to bastardize and used to justify his own narrow thinking.

Phl 3:18 For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
Phl 3:19 They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth.

Spot the difference Ola

Their god is their appetite: Tithe
They brag about shameful things: Church programs and GS'(mere men)

hisblud: @op am a bit concern when you mentioned the bolded. There can not be VARIED view of the gospel, only ONE which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, this is the gospel wit power. So i would ask you rewrite it as that the Holy Spirit in them will speak thru their individuality to the unity of faith. Not to digress please, just my observation

Actually there are varied views of the gospel and this is so for the reason you also gave and I qoute you

as that the Holy Spirit in them will speak thru their individuality to the unity of faith

This is what allows for these varied views but one gospel. I think the varied views is even allowed by God as long as it adds to the whole purpose of Christ coming and that is the redemption of man. In fact speaking on varied veiws: even though the scriptures are translated from the same hebrew and greek manuscript, we still end up with varied versions. And that is a case of same original manuscript O; talk less of when we are interpreting the manuscript.

So, hisblud, permit the thread to go as I have designed it.

I want to thank Goshen, Okeyz and Shdemidemi for their contribution so far. I want to proceed with verses 6 and following but I think I will wait for frosbel's contribution.

I will look into what hisblud had raised.