₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi: I am done with the two of you for now..thanks for having me.

Sebi I told you

The law is like a sadistic lecturer that ensures no one passes an exam regardless of how you try.

Purpose of the law: By the law we is the knowledge of sin. The law was given as a school master in anticipation of Christ.

Grace is Jesus coming to write those exams for us. Passing with A's and I mean 100%. Grace is Christians presenting Jesus' report card and not ours.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Romans 6:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Debating MostHigh is a waste of valuable time

Tgirl4real: Sorry to badge in on the discussion sir.

How can u say Jesus is deity and not God?

If we agree Jesus is deity i.e. divine, but not God, that means he is a lesser god to God.

And that is polytheism.

It is a difficult subject no doubt. I await the masters to share their take on it.

Here we go again.

Battle line drawn. I hope we see the light sha in this thread.

Thank you Goshen for this one.

Thank you Ayoku 777 for this quote

ayoku777: This is what we need to be hearing, on TV and in church, not all these deliverance from demons on tv that mocks christianity. The church needs deliverance from ignorance and from the Law. If believers are taught grace, trust me, we will have less things to be delivered from.

that was so well said

Ihedinobi: Been following this thread from the start, but I consider it best to not actually get involved. Begging the pardon of Deep Sight and Mr Anony. I just think I should point out how curious this statement is: "Jesus is Deity and not God". What does that even mean, abeg?

What is Deity? What is God? How does the submission of Jesus make Him less than God considering that Scriptures say that He deliberately humbled Himself to take the form of man?

Anyway, not discussing any further, just thought to point that out.

@DrummaBoy, I'm not inclined to a full study of tithing yet with you. I think it's an interesting idea but it's too much for me right now. The first instant I am ready to handle it I'll reach out to you. And, by the way, responding to your post was not my only intent in quoting it, I meant to both make an example of it and respond to it and those are what I did. There's no.need to get upset about it.

I wish to respond to the bolded.

1. To be fair to Bidam, I heard the concept of Jesus being Deity and not God from Pastor Kun and having meditated on it, I felt it was the best middle line for most debates between Trinitarians and Unitarians. Like many doctrinal positions in the bible, there are scriptures one can bring up to back either sides (the opening posts of this thread proves this) but to be strictly trinitarian and use the words of the creeds that says somethings to this effect "Jesus is very God..." etc, may be going beyond what the scriptures say. And to be strictly Unitarian and say Jesus is not God is to make a similar error. While I await, Mr Anony and Deep Sight to answer your question, I think the concept of Jesus being Deity means in a sense he is God; has the attributes of God; does the function of God; but the fact that Jesus is not God means that Jesus and God are two distinct personalities in the God-head, the trinity, if you like. Jesus can and must be worshipped; and in the process all glory goes to God but he is not God, in the sense that God is God by Himself. The verse I quoted 1 Cor 11:3 uses the analogy of marriage to describe the God-head. The man and his wife are said to be one. But the wife is not the man; neither is the man the wife. In many instances, whatever is done to the wife, is done to the man; if you respect or disrespect the wife, the man feels respected or disrespected as the case may be. But as the man is the head of the wife, so also is God the head of Christ. That I think is what that scripture said. I want to however beg Anony and Deep for jumping the gun in this matter; I hope I have not broken the rules.

2. I look forward to when you will be ready for the tithing discuss. I myself was fearing you will take the challenge because it will only burden me further considering all I have on my hands at the moment. I will be free soon sha... and for that reason, I will begin to "follow" you.

3. To say that I was not upset will be to lie. I was. And who will not be when it comes to theological matters that will define our eternity. May be I went over board though - those tithe threads can be warfare. Tgirl herself testified of it once when she said she feels more comfortable with the family section than religious section. No wonder Arminians and Calvinist took up arms against each other in an English civil war year ago. But it is ok; I am no longer upset.

@Bidam

Just as frosbel and Pastor Kun are my friends, so are you. We only disagree on doctrinal issues... abi?

Ihedinobi: Actually, I was going to laugh, then I just felt how tragic this is. How many are straying like this? Beginning from wanting to be the different one, the one who thinks outside the box and has a reputation for questioning things, many end up uprooting the foundation of their faith. It's worse when they follow champions of rebellion like frosbel.

If Jesus is not God, what is your faith? What is it that you believe that sets you apart from the world? On what basis are you a Christian? I have not yet by that last question denied your Christianity, I have only asked you to examine yourself.

DrummaBoy: So far in this discuss my trinitarian position has not changed but the argument of those against the concept of trinity has made me appreciate more the person of God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus is deity but that it does not detract from God's deity and that Jesus is subject to God at the end of all times. That Jesus is strictly God, and God is strictly Jesus is a concept I doubt now from this discuss.

Jesus is deity but Jesus is not God.

I am paying close attention to this thead.

Hello Ihedinobi, long time.

I appreciate your concern for the state of my faith but your concern will have been better appreciated if you had directed that statement at me directly, rather than the third person manner you are using. But you can be forgiven, it is your style.

Funny enough, my position is taken from scriptures like this:

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The position of God being distinct from Jesus is clearly stated in the first scripture quoted: God is the head of Christ; the position that eternal life comes from a correct understanding of who God is is taken from the latter scripture that is in bold. So I am understanding God, my friend, and my salvation is intact.

That Jesus is referred to as Lord in scriptures shows his deity; and that he is different from the person of God the Father is clearly defined too.

It is unfortunate that rather than respond to an issue, folks like Ihedinobi, cook up old beefs to respond to new issues on ground. Frosbel and other did help me understand the concept of tithing better: an issue I had doubted most of my Christian walk but practiced in ignorance. Is it wrong to come to understanding?

The discuss is still on. The concept of Jesus being strictly God seem to be the invention of one of the creeds and not scripture. If at the end, we see that Jesus is God, I am sure Deep Sight, myself and others, will humbly accept.

This discuss is the most civil discuss I have found on Nairaland.com. I would wish that Ihedinobi and I could have a similar one on Tithing - the issue that shurred up his response at me in the first place.

Demi talks about a Gospel of the Kingdom and a Gospel of grace. He claims Jesus preached the latter and Peter and James reflect it in their ministry to the Jews and even in their epistles. Demi teaches that Paul alone taught the gospel of grace.

If one would be patient withe Demi, we may see that he saying something that most of us do not know about and are finding difficult to receive. I believe what he is saying.

However, I would not call it "two" gospel per se. I will say they presented the gospel in a different manner to different audiences but the same source - the Holy Spirit.

Recently I received a book, Dispensations, from Berachah Church, Pastored by the late Rev. (Lt. Col.) R. B. Thieme. Thieme is a graduate of Dallas Seminary, and teaches this concept of dispensation. The age of the Gentiles, Jews, Church, Tribulations, etc. We are in the church age, this book teaches, and are to operate by the gospel of grace. Demi, like Thieme, teaches that after this age will come the times of tribulation. Demi has shown that both in the time of Jesus and the tribulation, it is the gospel of the kingdom that will be preached, to the jews. I think it makes sense.

I am calling Demi, for the upteenth time, to open a thread on this issue and trash it out properly. Hopefully folks here will get his message.

I find it funny when the most "holy" OLAADEGBU goes on and on in his self righteous garment about repentance. Unfortunately I am handicapped in proving the orignial words translated as repentance from the greek but Bible teachers show that what the likes of the most "holy" call repentance is not weeping, crying and making up one's mind not to sin again (100% of those who do, almost always commit the same sin again), rather repentance is a change of mind. Simple. It is decision to trust God through Jesus concerning the issues of our lives and not self.

Unfortunately, most people who claim they have repented and forsaken a particular sin, always resort to self effort to abstain from the said sin. Repentance is trusting Jesus and not self for deliverance from the consequences and effects of sin.

frosbel: I really want an honest answer , what is the hope of your calling as a Christian, what are you aiming for and what do you expect to achieve as the end result of your faith.

To be all that God will have me to be; that will include glorifying God and enjoying him forever

Tgirl4real: And what are you feeling like?

Drummerboy? Lol

Like, cool aid!

Tgirl4real: @ Drummaboy, I am a mod o, I have been one for years now. And you know you cant satisfy everybody, that's why ppl will always complain.

Yeah. Right. I gerrit!

Kirinwa: My business is going down.I feel lonely.

I believe you. You want to die.

But only one lifeline is left and that is for you to talk... tell us what is the problem. They say a problem shared is half solved... And hopefully someone may be able to help you out.

So far in this discuss my trinitarian position has not changed but the argument of those against the concept of trinity has made me appreciate more the person of God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus is deity but that it does not detract from God's deity and that Jesus is subject to God at the end of all times. That Jesus is strictly God, and God is strictly Jesus is a concept I doubt now from this discuss.

Jesus is deity but Jesus is not God.

I am paying close attention to this thead.

Tgirl4real: Lol. I get what Alex is trying to avoid.

@ ur earlier post,

D antichrist will rise from the church ke? Are you sure about that?

Are you mixing up the 'spirit of the antichrist' with the man himself?

According to biblical prophecies, he is a political figure that will arise from the middle east, he will promote religous harmony, hence the peaceful reign.

The more reason we must resort to scriptural references as soon as possible

mummykia: The Sabbath also preceded the Law. --So on the seventh day,God rested from all His work Gen2:2b. He also blessed it and made it holy.
Why don't our today preachers/ pastors teach us to obey the sabbath law?
Why don't they teach us to follow the example in Genesis concerning Rest?
Why are they more interested in tithe than sabbath, even though they both preceded the Law of Moses?

Sabbath preceded the law
Circumcision preceded the law
Animal sacrifices preceded the law
Setting up of physical altars preceded the law
Polygamy preceded the law
Tithing (is said to have) preceded the law

Why is only tithing that survived all these ordinances that preceded the law. The answer is simple: kulele = money! If there was nothing to gain, the tithe would have been left alone. But trust our pastors that must sustain organized church and large ministries; thus the need for the tithe.

The tithe is obsolete, my friends, their is no basis for giving it in the NT, save for a free will offering.

mcfynest: hmmmm you are on point. thanks

alexleo: I understand you dear just that i also dont want to condemn those testimonies outrightly. I too am totally for reasoning on the scriptures than any other thing these days so as to avoid falling victim of any falsehood of the antichrist. Just that by the time Ola will reply you, frosbel replies him, then both of them will keep replying each other and this thread will be derailed.

Issokay, I will pipe it down and just focus on scriptures for now

alexleo: I wish you will leave out this so that we can discuss this rapture thing freely without exchange of bitter words. Sometimes satan uses such exchange of words to deny us of what God wants us to learn. When someone is making a truthful point you wont even be able to calm down to see the truth he is saying because two of you are already on the battle line. Everything that can be argued about the testimonies have been argued. lets move forward pls. Thanks.

Alex, I appreciate your concern but I pray someday you would realize that the greatest enemies of Christ comes from the church and not from outside. It would do OLAADEGBU a great deal of good to stop the nonsense he is publishing and focus on discussing scriptures and not out of this world events. Satan uses men and when one discerns this, you should never spear such people.

This anti Christ we are talking about is not Spirit now; he is human. Gospel preaching can be warfare and to this we have been called. If he thinks otherwise he should prove me so.

[quote author=Tgirl4real]

This really crack me up.

yeah (BTW I went to family section yesterday and saw that you were the Mod there. What?! I have been talking with a mod all this while. I thought you guyz were like sadist or something, following the way people rip you guys apart on NL)

Is the cashless/cardless policy in line with this?

If so, do we have a choice than to comply?

It is complex. Someone told me to give scriptural references and I trust God to make out time to do it; although I sense frosbel will beat me to it. But most of what I know of the antiChrist is very intuitive and I believe it by the Spirit of God.

Now, remember, how some years ago the wonder banks appeared? And how folks were deceived into investing in them with the hope of large profits? That is how the anti-Christ will come. As many people as were deceived into those businesses are the kind of people that will be deceived also. When something is too good to be true, BEWARE!

The antichrist is an economic figure and the bases of his dealing will be money, money and money. Those who love money will follow him into the abyss. There is a possibility that even the tithe revolution in our churches is an extension of his tentacles into the church. But it will not stop there, it will go real far.

The protestants felt the pope was the antiChrist, they are both right and wrong. Right in the sense that the way the Pope reigns is the way the antiChrist will reign but wrong in the sense that the minute satan succeeds to making us focus on one thing, he can use the opportunity to come from other places. He is a deceiver and very sly. So all these GO of churches are all little popes in their own rights and very antiChrist at the worst.

I do not think it has anything to do with Sanusi's policies or Obama's health care; the antiChrist will arise from the temple, remember, from the church.

Let me go work on my scriptural references.

I will be back!

idnoble135: where are your scriptural evidences? Or you posted this based on how you reasoned it.

I could give the scriptural references. I taught this same thing in church one day and have since been an outcast because I showed very clearly the link between this private jet owning pastors and the anti-Christ. I would do the scriptural references when I can grab the time.

Back to Cor (like Ubenedictus will say)

1Cr 4:10 - We [are] fools for Christ's sake, but ye [are] wise in Christ; we [are] weak, but ye [are] strong; ye [are] honorable, but we [are] despised.

In verse 8 of this chapter(8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. ), we saw an example of the prosperity Christian’s lifestyle and this Paul said he had wished was really so. But was in real fact, not so. He then explains the extreme responsibilities that rest upon the apostles – the fact that God has set fort the apostles last and appointed them unto death in verse 9. This he continues to discuss in verse 10 but contrasting it with the lifestyle of the Corinthian Christian.

9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

While the Corinthians were wise, the apostle and he colleagues are seen as fools; while the Corinthians are strong, the apostles are weak; and while the Corinthians are honorable, the apostles are despised. What does this mean?

I have the wonderful privilege of raising my own family. My daughter is eighteen months and she is just adorable. Being her father opens me up to so many beautiful truths about life: firmost amongst them is the wonder of having God as my Father. If I love my daughter the way I do despite being finite in mind and corrupt in flesh, how much more does a perfect God love me? Not only that; I understand God’s provision for me better. Long before my daughter can think of what to eat, wear, school or shelter, I have thought of those things way ahead.

God goes ahead of me to provide what I need. Having my daughter, I have seen the invisible hand of God Fathering this child through me. And I trust God for the day when I will be given the glorious privilege of explaining the gospel to my baby and seeing her come to Jesus, her true Father and God.

It is in the aspect of providing for my child that I understand Paul the most. Thank God for His grace of provision of job, house,health, etc. But I still have to make some effort to see to it that my child is provided for. In the end my child finds food to eat, but it would have involved my working 30 days a month; she has a car to be driven to school with; but it would entail the car is fueled, fixed and made workable; she wears beautiful cloths and looks gay but God alone knows how much effort I have put in so she may look this. At the end, parenting, especially at this beginning stage, involves a great deal of sacrifice but the child does nothing; he simply enjoys the effort of the parent.

There have been times in the bid to get what to eat, I have been insulted, maligned and vexed a great deal but my child does not see this; she just smiles all day and of course throw tantrums.

This is what Paul is saying verse 10. Somewhere in 2 Corinthians Paul spoke of spending and being spent for the Corinthians. What we have in verse 10 is not a contrast between apostate and true Christianity (like I contrasted in verse 8 using the prosperity gospel), rather we have the enormous responsibility of bearing the office of a teacher and a leader in the body of Christ. The truth is that the leader is the one that should be spending and being spent, while the followers should be seen as increasing in glory. Verse 10 helps us to appreciate the immense responsibility that rests upon leadership of Churches.

Jesus in John 21 spoke to Peter three times about the need to feed the flock of God (17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. ). When a child is well fed, it shows in his/her appearance. James 3:1 talks of teachers going to be judged more severely than others and that not too many people should desire the office (1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation). Peter warns church leaders not to lord it over the congregation of God.

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away

Paul talks of how he burns with anger because people are being misled in 2Corinthians 11.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

All of these and much more scripture gives us a picture of the demand on a pastor, a teacher, an apostle, a prophet and an evangelist.

The modern craving for leadership of churches is borne out of the fact that many do not know that church leadership is sacrificial. It is laying down ones life for the sheep. When church has been turned into a place where leaders are exalted to positions of priesthood that must enjoy the largesse of tithe, offering, blessing, adorations and adulation, honor, etc., the sacrificial duties that is enjoined upon them gradually gives way to privileges. So that while the likes of Paul saw themselves as laying down their lives and saw the call to ministry as a burden that could not be shelved, if not he would be accursed (1 Corinthians 9)(16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! ), today’s church leaders see leadership as a privilege and a place where one is to enjoy largess .

The natural implication is that unlike the days of the apostle Paul where he need to trade foolishness, weakness and dishonor so that the people he led would be wise, strong and honorable, we have situations in our day where our leaders are the honorable, strong and wise and quite naturally the people would be foolish (they do not know bible doctrine), weak (open to all kind of oppression of Satan) and dishonorable (put down by the ups and downs of life in general).

Every parent knows that whatever they sow in their children is what they will reap. I have seen irresponsible parents and their end – some of them not even enjoying the benefit of a decent burial. I have seen parents who sacrificed some twenty years of their lives(only)to see their children through to greatness – such parents live a longer part of their latter lives in opulence. I know that I would not need my child’s support in latter life (God will provide for me), but I will enjoy eating my child’s food(ma jeun omo). It is the same thing that will befall these false pastors and prophets at the end, the people they have deprived so much today will turn around and consume them tommorrow.

For example, nobody ever thought that the day will come when believers will begin to question tithing. But with the revolution going on now, many people are beginning to realize that they have been sold a lie for too long a time. Many are “wising up” and beginning to question their leaders. I see this as the working of God’s Spirit. The days to come will produce greater results in this regard – with more Christians coming to know the full liberties they have in Christ.

Jesus will build his church and that church consisting of individuals from various denominations and churches will be wise, strong and honorable. They will birth ministries that will produce their kind. In the days to come we shall see more sacrificial kind of Christianity and this apostasy that has reigned for too long will become known for what it truly is – false religion. The days ahead shall be glorious.

I believe also that the visions of hell and heaven OLAADEGBU publishes on nairaland are from the antichrist.

Those visions have only one message: SALVATION BY WORKS. This is the leading error that the antichrist has been selling since the days of apostle Paul. If it is not circumcision, it would be that Jesus did not come in the flesh - the Gnostic Heresy, or it would be Roman catholicism and their resort to Mary and saints for mediation and salvation, or it would be the holiness movement - YOU MUST WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING - forgetting it is God that workS in US to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

In the days to come ANGELS shall come preaching another gospel. Gal 1:8;9: They will deceive many, and like OLAADEGBU, there main point will be that Jesus death and resurrection is not enough, U must do this or that MORE to be saved.

T B Joshua is an agent of the antichrist and many like him.

Jesus has warned us - beware that U are not deceived. Matthew 24.

I do not subscribe to pretibulation rapture. I don't think scripture teaches that kind of myth. The traditional view of Jesus Coming is that people would be about their business then suddenly the trumpet will sound. Then Christians wills be raptured, etc. I think it is fairy tale.

These are my belief

*The antichrist is not coming, he is here
*Christians will experience some tribulations but not all
*the rapture is not Christians flying in the air, it is a kind of stepping up out of this realm into another. Similar to how Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and stepped out. There are a cloud of witnesses all around us now; we will simply join them.
*I believe the 666 is a Mark on men already today and people are still collecting it
*I believe the prosperity gospel is the chief gospel of the antichrist and that those who teach this gospel are his agents
*I believe many Christians are already marked 666 by this gospel

I look forward to a sound expose to prove me right or wrong here

@Okeyz
Who are your teachers? Just would like to know the source of your teaching.

@Ayoku777
I see peeping. U've got something to say

^Okay, bosses, I will. I got something interesting for verse 10

@Demi

I have requested that U open a thread for this discuss U gave above and put it in a proper perspective rather than making it a response. I agree with Goshen U may not have found d right words to put it these things though U are saying the right things.

In addition to what U said above salvation is not only by grace through faith alone, if we consider what Jesus said in John 17:3 we understand salvation or eternal life is also knowing God. When men understand the gospel, and know God, they lay faith to the done work of the cross and they are saved.

That is why the body of Christ needs teachers and not all the ministries we see around. When people understand and know God, they are saved.

And that is why the war against Judaizers and their teaching will not end bc the biggest impediment to knowing God is false doctrine or religion.

Cheers.

Shdemidemi and Tgirl, do you realize that OLAADEGBU has no sense of humor and is not finding what you guyz are doing funny at all.

It is holiness or burst... no laughter... just groaning and repentance... what a pathetic situation.

My guyz have fun jare... If he does not want you on his thread, he should open his own blog and call it for deeper lifers only

smh

I await Goshen's contribution before I proceed on this discuss. I hope the thread is not boring us, because we have fewer people contributing to the discuss lately.

And BTW I have not seen anything from Bidam, Image, Alwaystrue, etc.

DrummaBoy: 31 - 45

Tgirl4real: I would say 18 - 28

Specifically somewhere within 33-37

^ Don't mind them jare, Goshen, God's joy is your strength to combat all the enemies of the gospel. They will keep groaning while U laugh through abundance

31 - 45