₦airaland Forum

Barristter07:
Jesus from proverb 8:22

But according to the same verse it was not the speaker who created everything it was God Himself.

Barristter07:
Where was the Father before he made the heavens ?

The Father was in eternity...
So where was Jesus?

Barristter07:
Is an arch enemy part of enemies ?

Still on the same information

The list you provided I said substitute it in Rev 3:14 let's see if it fits in OR not.

The word BEGINNING wasn't part of what you listed, so what's your point?

Genesis 2:4 proved Heaven and earth were made later. not beginning, I gave you proverb 8: 22-26 that established same point . that beginning at Gen 1:1 is relative to the day they were created . Genesis 2:4

Just look at the @underlined and see how Devil has been so much beclouded you....

When it was written boldly in Gen 1:1 that "IN THE BEGINNING God created heavens and the earth"

Yet you can open your dirty mouth to say "NOT BEGINNING"

Barristter07:
Jesus was created first . Genesis 2:4 says heaven and earth were created later .

Liar....

Why jumping Genesis 1:1 and went straight to Genesis 2:4?

So where was Jesus stay before heavens were created? Remember a created being needs a space to occupy....

Barristter07:
Despite trying to help you, you still refuse to have sense - Does Proverb 8:22-26 not clarify this clearly ?

The sense I know you don't have in the first place!

So who is speaking in Prov 8?

Barristter07:
Emusan , Is an arch enemy part of enemies ?

You Cant escape this.

Substitute what you listed above into Rev 3:14 and let's see how it fit in into Jesus being the first created.

You See: Chief, Higher Rank from your own source even when BEGINNING wasn't there, you still went ahead to type rubbish.

You know what , Proverb 8:22-26 which was made first ?

I'll analyze Prov 8 for you later so that you can see it doesn't support you instead is against you.

So the point is, both Genesis 1:1 and Rev 3:14 can't be saying the same thing....if not it'll contradict each other, infact Genesis 1:1 is more favorable because it uses the word CREATED & BEGINNING at the same time. Unless you still insist that the writer of Genesis made mistake by saying that, what God created first in the beginning were heavens and the earth

Barristter07:
Proverb 8:22-26 says which was created first ?

I've said it before that Proverb 8 isn't on you people side because it went completely against your claim when we analysis in detail.

But the point here is this:

Both Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1-3 have the same tone

So, Is God lying for plainly said in Genesis 1:1 that what was created FIRST IN THE BEGINNING were heavens and the earth?

Barristter07:
From the examples cited .

Is an arch enemy an enemy ?

Is an arch angel an angel too ?

It's evident that even the dictionary you cited didn't support Rev 3:14 as FIRST CREATED but you just decided to stick with your dubious interpretation.

The point is clear enough . I ask some questions above.

Even from the list BEGINNING was not there so I'll ask you to substitute what you quote into Rev 3:14 and let's see how well it will fit in.

Colossians says the person mentioned at Rev 3:14 is before anything else , it became clear he was BORN first among creations

Don't bring Colossians into this first that's how you people jump up and down like monkeys....

Did receive 3:14 means Jesus was created FIRST IN THE BEGINNING that the point compare to Genesis 1 :1 where it was plainly said that, what God created first in the beginning were HEAVENS AND THE EARTH?

Barristter07:
Stop displaying idiocy on every thread , Devil also started sinning from beginning means he was there before Jesus going by your brain dead analysis.

I'll tell you, you stop displaying your ignorance and myopic attitude.

Isn't Genesis emphatically said GOD created HEAVENS AND THE EARTH IN the Beginning?

The word CREATED boldly appear in that verse which means both Jesus and heavens and the earth can't be CREATED AT THE BEGINNING.

Barristter07:
Do you accept Devil was right there in the beginning too ? ( 1John 3:8 )

Then which means beginning wasn't mean CREATED FIRST? Do you agree?

Genesis 1:1 PLAINLY SAID WHAT WAS CREATED IN THE BEGINNING is God lying?

Barristter07:
chief; principal; of highest rank
archangel
archbishop
archduke
2. eminent above all others of the same kind; extreme
archenemy
archfiend
archfool

So your point ?

My point is, now how does this proof that Rev 3:14 is talking about Jesus being created in the BEGINNING?

By the time you check the above it would be clear

I can't see where CREATED appears in the above list, did you?

Colossians 1:15-17 says the first BORN is before all other things. So " Beginning " here at Gen 1:1 is relative . your Foolish logic would mean Devil actually started sinning from beginning ( 1Joh 3:8 )

Can you see your hypocrisy I do talk about

So the BEGINNING in Genesis is relative but the one in Rev 3:14 isn't....continue!

Now you're bringing Colossians into this when your confusion is not yet clear about Rev 3:14

freshboi88:
U keep trying to win the argument and not learn. It is a shame u not open minded.

Beginning has more than 1 meaning, u think I can be easily fooled... Hahahaha.......I laugh at u.

According to the dictionary incase u cannot understand things:

Can u see that beginning also means


the background or origins of a person or organization. Which has a synonym of source and origin

At the end nobody can decide to give his or her own interpretation. But to know which interpretation is correct, that interpretation must be consistent across scripture.

Jehovah's witness interpretation contradicts John 1:3-4.

That's Jehovah witness lying liar for you...

Notice: They won't provide the dictionary for Rev 3:14 but will quickly do so for another verse.

If Jesus was created at the beginning the Bible is lying then by saying that, what God first created IN THE BEGINNING were heavens and the earth according to Genesis 1:1

Maximus69:
Proverbs 8:22-30 compare to John 1:1-18

Genesis 1:1 says "IN THE BEGINNING God created heavens and the earth"

How can Jesus still be the first created BEING IN THE BEGINNING when the Bible tells us what God first created IN THE BEGINNING WERE heavens and the earth?

That's the question

Jozzy4:
Only showing you ridiculous you can be.

Cry me a river....like I said I won't give you the avenue to derail this thread.

Is Jesus Christ in the heavens ?

The questions are:

1. Which one was created at the BEGINNING, heavens and earth or Jesus?

2. Is God lying for saying He created Heavens and the earth IN BEGINNING? according to Genesis 1:1

Lastly, you asked "is Jesus Christ in the heavens?"
A created being needs a SPACE TO OCCUPY

So where was Jesus after he was created?

Barristter07:
Is English this hard for you ? I show you the usage of Apart from.

If you're not an hypocrite, then show us the usage of the word ARCHE translated as BEGINNING in Rev 3:14 according to COLLINS DICTIONARY...

Let's see your stand.

You people Claimed or as the Bible claimed ?

You people claimed because that's not what Bible claims.

No contradiction.

Then both heavens and earth and Jesus can't be created at the BEGINNING....

Which one was first created at the beginning?

Genesis 1 answered that, it was HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, it means you misinterpreted Rev 3:14

Jozzy4:
[s]Yeah just like you end up saying Good people will raised two times , and that There are two judgement . Dundee [s]

I know you want to derail this thread but I won't give you that chance!

Where is your sense
Do heavens include the heavenly beings ?

So you mean heavens and earth were created before Jesus Christ.....


Waooooo let's see where this will end first!

Barristter07:
If you see revelation 3:14 now , you will start suffocating .

Collins dictionary " You use apart from when you are making an exception to a general statement. "

Christ is an exception ... He was directly created by His Father ( Rev 3:14 )

You know I know how to deal with people like you...

Before we continue, can you give us Collins Dictionary of that Rev 3:14 so that we can compare with your statement here!

If Rev 3:14 actually means Jesus is the BEGINNING OF GOD CREATION as you people claimed, didn't that contradict Genesis 1:1 that says "IN THE BEGINNING God created heavens and the earth"?

Maximus69:
Antijw virus spotted!
Be careful!

I didn't even know that there's Antijw I only know Antichrists which is what you and your brothers are doing here.....denying Jesus Christ!

Genesis 1 that says "In the BEGINNING God created heavens and earth" Isn't this evident that Jehovah witnesses are calling God a liar by saying "In the BEGINNING God created Jesus"?


I know as usual you'll shy away from my question

Barristter07:
They do, its you and your types that didn't reason well, Revelation 3:14 is clear enough that Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation. For a certainty he was created .

At John 1:3 the Greek word charis is defined by Strong's

5565. chóris ►
Strong's Concordance
chóris: separately, separate from
Original Word: χωρίς
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: chóris
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-rece')
Definition: separately, separate from
Usage: apart from, separately from; without.


https://biblehub.com/greek/5565.htm


The same Greek word also means Apart from him , which means John 1:3 isn't excluding Jesus from Creation but saying Apart from him ( who was directly created by God ) nothing else exist without Jesus.

Emphasis on " Apart from him " ( e.g NASB uses this )


A translator that chooses without at John 1:3 has already contradicted Rev 3:14 . that's satanic manipulation and desperate attempt to cover the loopholes of trinity teaching .

Good morning

Always cherish picking as usual...

That's how they will be rushing to Strong Greek or commentaries as if they wholly agree with it.

The same strong uses "BY ITSELF, BESIDE"

The scripture is so clear if God created Jesus then it means Jesus is the one who created Himself according to John 1:3 because the verse stated it clearly that "...apart from Him WAS NOT anything made that was made"

The center point is NOTHING WAS MADE WITHOUT CHRIST that's why the gospel of John 1 started with the same phrase of Genesis 1 "In the beginning God created heavens and earth" but Jehovah witness called GOD a liar by saying "in the beginning Jesus was first created before heavens and earth were created."

Maximus69:
Accusation comes from both God's people {Matthew 15:7;23:23} and Satan's agents {Mark 3:22; John 10:20}

So accusations means nothing Sir!

Just present one of the groups you're supporting that's performing up to 10% of what JWs have achieved so far! Matthew 7:16-18

Shameless lying liar....

I said FALSE accusation....yet you'll be claiming you don't have comprehension issue.

Do you mean people of God are into FALSE accusation?

Achievement in lying, falsehood and twisting of the scripture....I know no one can overtake you people!

Maximus69:
Just present one of your churches that has accomplished 10% of what JWs have been able to accomplish amongst adherents of their teachings!

If they don't have the truth no matter how stubborn you prove to be, they can never perform as in bear fine fruis like God's people.

So continue crying!

Shameless lying liar....

It's obvious the fruits JWs produces are false accusation and rejoicing in lying.

The Bible reveals who the father of liar is, the Devil so you know where you belong.

Maximus69:
Don't kill yourself with high blood pressure my guy!

All you need to do is calm down to ask in a respectable and honest manner.

I don't think anyone is pushing you into all these arguments nah!

Must you always find ways to argue?

Well it's because you were never composed anytime you see posts from JWs, that's why your intolerant attitude often blur your insight.

Now listen attentively before you think of arguing,
The Roman Catholic Church is the AntiChrist, the Satanic seed that germinate from the Apostates amongst the first century Christian congregation, but it's after all the Apostles were dead that the AntiChrist became fully manifest as the Roman Catholic Church. This pagan religion began giving birth to children like Islam, Anglican, Methodist and the rest. All these groups protested against Catholic dominance that's where the idea of different denomination came from, but since they're all working hand in hand with the political elements under Satan's control, they can't bear the fruitage of God's holy spirit, that's why the OP could merge the politicians with them as Antichrist. I never said the OP was wrong in any way, but i only directed my own point to the first and foremost manifestation of the AntiChrist in it's full regalia "Roman Catholic Church"!

So try to calm down now before thinking of where i have lied!

Shameless liar....

It's evident here that you know not what you're talking about that's why you've been going back and forth.

But what does anyone expect from JWs brainwashed? Always lying and derive joy in their lies just as their pagan founder.

Maximus69:
Thanks for getting off my back jare!

As if i never said Satan is interested in ruling people?

How will he do that if he did not have power over the politicians?

How will politicians solicit for voters if they don't work with the AntiChrist (False religious bodies?

Argumentative Emusan!

Shameless liar human being.....

So it has to take several hardcore points to factory reset your dull brain....and you couldn't even cover your shameless face with thick pajamas.

Now, your definition of Antichrist is now RELIGIOUS BODIES(Plural). Capital OLODO!

You didn't talk about your lie of Antichrist began AFTER THE DEATH OF THE APOSTLES again...but now trying to cover up the whole things with useless statement.

I could remember my question to your first post, I asked "Why only Roman Catholic Church and not Anglican or other denominations?"

You think you're smart but only to first exposed your ignorance and lying attitude.

You See it as argument whereas every reasonable reader here can see that I'm presenting a Biblical fact and you're the one lying.

HYPOCRITE!

Maximus69:
Deluded Maximus69!

Just listen to yourself!

©OP is JW.
©He said AntiChrist is anything against Christ.
©Apostles said Antichrist began in the first century Christian congregation.

So what makes my assertion and that of the OP contradicting tori Olórun?

A liar will always be a liar no matter what!

You stated that ANTICHRIST which is Roman Catholic BEGAN AFTER THE DEATH OF THE APOSTLES

I pointed it out at Op which also cited a scripture that Even the ANTICHRISTS (PLURAL) are already among the Apostles

Can you now see that you're a liar not even contradiction.

I said lack of intelligence is making you behave stupid simply because you have this uncontrollable hatred for JWs!

Deluded JWs anybody who is not agreeing with you is hatred at least you didn't even call me Apostate.

Now listen, AntiChrist is the Roman Catholic Church. But those who formed the church went out of the Christian congregation, if not they can't form an image of what they don't know!

So you means Roman Catholic Church exist during the time of the Apostles....that's another delusion!

Read this part again from the OP to see you're the one who lack intellectual capability "That same verse tells us. It says "even now are there many antichrists".
It is true that all individuals opposed to Christ, perhaps, those who persecute the true Christians could collectively be referred to as the antichrist,
Organization and even governments opposed to Christ can also fittingly be called antichrists.

Image of Peter, Mary, Paul and others simply reminds a good student of the Bible what Jesus said about the seed of Satan. Their father's killed the prophets but they build and whitewash the tomb of the prophets! Luke 11:47-48

What's the difference between the Catholics whose founders schemed the persecution of the true Christians but built images in their likeness and started bowing down to it?

Even the Op stated it clearly that Antichrists is anything OPPOSING CHRIST....even scripture said ANTICHRIST is the one who denied that CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH...

So because the OP said "groups or persons against Christ is an AntiChrist" means we are contradicting each other shey?

Sorry Emusan, you lack intelligence Sir!

Ole see how he changed it to groups or persons......he said GOVERNMENTS also which means it might not be A RELIGIOUS BODY

It's evident you know you contradicted OP and the scripture but to admit it is your problem.

So you can keep living in your delusions of Roman Catholic Church is the Antichrist.

Maximus69:
Walahi Talahi you get problem!

Who is the AntiChrist?

I said Roman Catholic Church.

You wanted to argue i said you're not that intelligent, now after presenting the points to prove what i said you're now running to another point.

First of all, let's settle the point i made.

Who is the AntiChrist?

Maximus69 said Roman Catholic Church but you wanted to argue that it's not.

Now Mr Emusan Argumentative, please can you disprove the points presented?

It's so unfortunate you're exposing your ignorance here but the most astonished part of it is how you derive joy in your ignorance.

For the last time because I know you're not that intelligent at all, BOTH THE OP AND THE SCRIPTURE HAVE SETTLED the DESCRIPTION OF ANTICHRISTS.

That's why the OP made a remark at the end of the post as "But what about the mark spoken of in Rev 13? Is that mark in form of a chip?
Let's discuss that next time"

As you can see, this thread isn't about who is ANTICHRIST but because the Demon in you has made you to become God (since you have the power to judge and condemn people) makes you too dull to understand it.

Now if you disagree with the OP, I'll like to remind you that OP is also a JWs.

Last point: You lied that "The AntiChrist (Roman Catholic Church) began after the death of the Apostles"

When the OP stated it clearly that "That same verse tells us. It says "even now are there many antichrists".

It is true that all individuals opposed to Christ, perhaps, those who persecute the true Christians could collectively be referred to as the antichrist,

Organization and even governments opposed to Christ can also fittingly be called antichrists.

So saying Roman Catholic is the Antichrist shows how shallow your understanding of the scripture is and how you can go against your fellow brothers.

After all, the same you will be accusing other people for not agreeing among themselves.

Hypocrite JWs!

Maximus69:
God's law says no image of anything both on land, air or sea shouldn't be erected, and people should not bow to them {Exodus 20:4} but Catholics build images, bow and pray to them.

Jesus taught his followers not to bear religious titles that outsiders may not attach any importance to such titles {Matthew 23:5-12} but Catholics have developed several titles ranging from Pope, Reverend, Father and the rest.

Jesus taught his followers that the true God is just one person {Mark 12:29-30 compare to Deuteronomy 6:4} but Catholics taught people that there are three persons in God(TRINITY)

Jesus taught his followers not to use repetitions when praying {Matthew 6:7} but Catholics taught their adherents to use rosaries in repeating words during prayers.

Jesus taught his followers not to use swords in leading amongst themselves {Matthew 26:52} but Catholics go from city to city killing people in the name of Crusades (religious wars for Jesus)

Jesus taught his followers to abstain from worldly Politics {Luke 4:8;18:18-23; John 6:15;14:30; 17:16;18:36} his first century followers don't participate in worldly politics {1John 2:15-17} but the Catholics were fighting for the sovereignty of the Roman empire until England conquered Roman to establish the Anglo Catholic Church~meaning Catholic Church but this one belongs to the English.


So with these evidence i say the Catholic Church is the AntiChrist (Religion that portray itself as if it's for Jesus but in reality it's against Jesus) Please can you disprove these points?

Can you see your life outside now?

Firstly, the Op has established that even the scripture talks about ANTICHRISTS (Notice the PLURAL) but here again you're single it out as only CATHOLIC.
Which means you didn't even understand the thread before you jump on it just because your organization has brainwashed you about Roman Catholic.

You first lied that Antichrist which is Roman Catholic began AFTER THE DEATH of the Apostles, when the Op and even the scripture stated it clearly that the Antichrist was already around at the time of the Apostles.

Secondly, The Op is talking about the identity of the Beast in Rev 13 not Antichrists anymore since that has been established.

Lastly, your tiny brain couldn't even phantom the thread yet you are forming superhero! Olodo of the century....

Now back to the topic, who is the Beast in Rev 13?

Your organization has claimed it to be UN which even made them to dismember themselves from UN after several years of being UN member.

Now, you claimed it's Roman Catholic, and the description in Rev 13 describes the beast "TO BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD, THE NAME OF GOD AND EVEN THOSE IN HEAVEN", are you saying Roman Catholic is currently doing all these?

Maximus69:
You see why i said "you (Emusan) only want to argue, you're not ripe enough for mature discussions"

To you I only want argument but can that erase the fact that you lied against history which I pointed out?

So you just want to dish out lies and allow people to swallow it up like...

Anyone seeing the way i was stylishly ignoring your invitation may think i just don't know what to say, but the Intolerant spirit in you is here again!

Just point out the falsehood in my post and let people see who needs to be ignored.

You are not a Catholic and you are not here to prove that Catholics are true Christians, so what is the purpose of your countercomment? Just to argue!

Why should I prove that Catholic are the true Christians?

So because I pointed out how you distorted history with lies just to favour your demonic organization.

Please go and learn how to ask thought provoking and leading questions like intellectuals.

No wonder you couldn't attempt any of my questions only to be boycotting them.

You will only kill yourself with headache simply because someone is saying what he believes, whereas you're also free to say yours without hindrance!

Why Did you want to kill yourself on top another person belief also?

Hypocrite!!!

Maximus69:
The AntiChrist (Roman Catholic Church) began after the death of the Apostles, it established pure paganism and led many into politics, killing their fellow adherents for positions and power, as they're trying to keep God's word in a language that's not popular, they also inserted so many false unfruitful doctrines into their translation of the Bible and used it as a teaching tool.
But they're so proud and egoistic that they can't humble themselves to carry their messages to their neighbour's doorstep!

Instead they stay in one place and making noise with loud musics and prayers to call the attention of neighbours to their false worship!

The word AntiChrist simply means "if you're not inquisitive, you will misconstrue them to be Christ's friends but in reality they are against Christ"

Apostle John made it clear that the AntiChrist began in the first century Christian congregation {1John 2:18-19} , but because the Apostles were still very much around then they couldn't overthrow Christianity until Satan (their father) made sure that all the Apostles were no more {Revelations 12:17} then he established his own evil seed to overshadow the fine seeds Jesus planted! Matthew 13:24-30

See how you're distorting history with your falsehood no wonder Christ says you are the children of your father the Devil because he was a liar from beginning.


Look at this statement: "But they're so proud and egoistic that they can't humble themselves to carry their messages to their neighbour's doorstep!"

Imagine if truly Catholic didn't carry the message to their neighbors, how did your pegan founder know about the gospel of Christ before he distorted the true message? I guess Russell was born during the time of the Apostles...

A Catholic monk coined the word Jehovah which you people didn't even mention only but went ahead to NAMED your organization with.

liar and hypocrite!

Maximus69:
I'm not here for your unfruitful arguments Emusan!

i've made my own contribution.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!

So if a respectable follower is interested in knowing the reason behind my contribution, i'll be obliged to discuss with him/her!

There's nothing in you to contribute, Just as you believe it's Roman Catholic today, some years back many JWs also died in the belief that it was UN but today the story has changed, what if you died believing it to be Roman Catholic then boom your demonic organization stand change again....

So how does your contribution change anything?

Maximus69:
You don't know the meaning of argument!

I only make presentations of what i believe, if i found someone who pick the interest i direct him to my Organization for a free home Bible study to be conducted by one of my brothers face to face!

But when i found argumentative persons like you, i'll just ask you one question, where do you refer an interested person for further information?

Remember i've asked you this question several times but instead of you to direct me to a visible Organization, it's always this your arguments!

I know you're looking for a way to derail this thread but I won't allow that, so whenever you have something meaningful and reasonable to contribute on this thread. Let me know!

Maximus69:
Argumentative Emusan!

Coming from the person jumping from thread to thread on religion section of Nairaland to argue blindly.

Maximus69:
Stick to what your own Organization says!

Usual rant when he couldn't defend the lying organization