₦airaland Forum

Buliwyf:
Stupid and fake video. Less than 30 people probably in Hong Kong or Taiwan get some books and somehow it is news?

And why does the video look old? Lol

Why are you so pained?

Maximus69:
That's what i need in your comment!

LIAR means a person who is fabricating ideas that's not based on facts, such ideas will never yield positivity because it hold no water. Now use your own brains to find out if you are in agreement with anyone around you when you're all having contradicting opinions on what is WRITTEN in the Bible. I purposely asked you "which Sunday School class are you referring people to attend amidst thousands of Churches claiming Christians around you?"
You remained silent on that because you know that one church doesn't teach the same thing with another!
Yet someone whose religious opinion has been thought throughout the globe and millions now have the SAME LINE OF THOUGHT with him you're labelling "LIAR"

FALSE ACCUSER means someone accusing another person but failed to present his case convincingly before the audience.
You are holding on to an opinion, you can't find anyone having the same line of thought with you and you're bitterly criticising a global family of peace loving worshipers, and what baffles me is that you are claiming Jesus sent you to do this.

Haba who are Jesus' followers that you are defending if you're claiming some people are FALSE ACCUSERS?

My friend let me tell you today that your friend achorladey is an atheist, he belongs to Satan the disorganizer and there is no faith in him. So instead of forming alliance with someone whose mind you can't predict (since both of you aren't having the same line of thought on religious beliefs), why not ask him the religious group with which he is associating?

For your information, achorladey goes nowhere but the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses for worship!

So if he's now speaking against his place of worship and he can't present any of the remaining religious groups as better of than where he is presently, that makes him your enemy in disguise because he is neither here nor there. Present the religious group you're defending so that everyone can see how Jehovah's Witnesses have become the ACCUSER of such religion!

That's when your bitter accusing fingers can make practical sense!

This your cry hasn't stopped, may God put end to your cry

Meanwhile, this is still my challenge to anyone of you

This is the lie your brother lied against me
"....THE SAME JESUS WILL STILL RAISE THE ALREADY RESURRECTED SAINTS"

This was my challenge to him:
Where did I say THE SAME JESUS WILL STILL RAISE THE ALREADY RESURRECTED SAINTS?

I'm still waiting for you or your brother to proof me wrong by providing the link where I said that and if you can't then you know what you are, a liar and false accuser like your father The Devil

Jozzy4:
First resurrection is for Those that will reign with Christ .. Not everyone . u sha read Rev 20:6. So others remain in their graves biko

If other remain in the grave then it's a fraudulent act to apply 1 Thess 4 to that...

because the account of 1 Thess 4 is so straight forward except to the liar liar JWs...

I'll tell you to read it slowly on your own without using watchtower by that you can get cure.

Come and explain the wicked getting final judgement part of your post o, was there mistake/error in former Judgment they were assumed to have gotten when they died and were sent to hell ?

Hell is a temporary place for the wicked while Abraham's Bossom is the temporary place for the righteous because the spirit of man lives on after death, Second resurrection if for FINAL JUDGMENT where even HELL ITSELF will be thrown into the lake of FIRE!

Is that too hard for you to comprehend

Jozzy4:
who are the saints/good people that will be raised in your second point ?

This is the lie your brother lied against me
"....THE SAME JESUS WILL STILL RAISE THE ALREADY RESURRECTED SAINTS"

This was my challenge to him:
Where did I say THE SAME JESUS WILL STILL RAISE THE ALREADY RESURRECTED SAINTS?

I'm still waiting for you or your brother to proof me wrong by providing the link where I said that and if you can't then you know what you are, a liar and false accuser like your father The Devil

Barristter07:
If you don't understand something ask.


Ressurection to heaven as a spirit being. Not ressurection of their bodies, it is sown a physical body and raised a spiritual body. Even Jesus the first to experience this kind of ressurection wasn't raised with his former body, that he had to materialize with different faces to be visible. Mary even called him a gardener .

Idiotic person.....

Is the resurrection to heaven as spirit being not happening now?

Are people still not leaving in their grave also during this Christ presence when 1 Thess 4 supposed to be for event that will happen at Christ presence which should only be for quick/instant resurrection

Barristter07:
Coming from a deluded fellow who claimed first ressurection is when Jesus comes and caught away the saints , Yet Jesus will still raise The already ressurected saints again a second time at the general ressurection. Makes you question his sanity

If the only thing u gain on this thread is that ressurection is important for all whom will reign with Christ a thousand years. It will do you much good.

Where did I say THE SAME JESUS WILL STILL RAISE THE ALREADY RESURRECTED SAINTS?

If you can't provide the link then you know what you are, a liar and false accuser like your father The Devil

Barristter07:
Which good again, I thought all of them that are saints have followed the first ressurection ? your effort to differentiate is just hitting the wall.

Whether you like it or not, using the word coming place all ressurection at the exact same time. Which is unscriptural.

Beside I still repeat that point again: First ressurection is essential for all who will reign with Christ

With evidence thus far, 1914 is a hoax Christ has not come!

Maximus69:
Since these people don't go to Sunday school as you do, and you're here to prove them wrong.
Is it not better you answer these questions to show everyone following NOT only JWs that you fully grasp what you're saying?
This person's question is showing some loopholes in your Sunday school interpretation, so if you're now insisting he should join your so called Sunday school program, how do you expect other followers to see that it's not just some kind of brainwashing that's going on in your so called Sunday school?

So don't just assume that it's only you and Jehovah's Witnesses that's following the thread, when you're asked a question, try to make a reasonable response or just say "I don't know!"

Keep weeping....I didn't know it pains you so much

achorladey:
To Emusan for your reading pleasure and see the mindset embedded in Jozzy4, barristter07......how they use POSSIBLY, MAYBE, CANNOT DIRECTLY CONFIRM, IT SEEMS to cause confusion here ad there.

A look at paragraph 11 and 12 no single scriptures is used to back whatever is written or contained in there.......

Now Under Way?

9. How do Revelation 12:7 and 17:14 help us to approximate the time when the first resurrection begins?

9 When does the first resurrection occur? There is strong evidence that it is now under way. For example, compare two chapters of Revelation. First, look at Revelation chapter 12. There we read that the newly enthroned Jesus Christ, along with his holy angels, wages war against Satan and his demons. (Revelation 12:7-9) As this journal has often shown, that battle began in 1914.* Notice, though, that none of Christ’s anointed followers are said to be with Jesus in that heavenly war. Now look at chapter 17 of Revelation. We read there that after the destruction of “Babylon the Great,” the Lamb will conquer the nations. Then it adds: “Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.” (Revelation 17:5, 14) “Called and chosen and faithful” ones must already have been resurrected if they are to be with Jesus for the final defeat of Satan’s world. Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

10, 11. (a) Who are the 24 elders, and what does one of them reveal to John? (b) What can we deduce from this?

10 Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at Revelation 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory.* (Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4) John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.

11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? IT SEEMS THAT RESURRECTED ONES of the 24-ELDERS GROUP MAY BE involved in the COMMUNICATING of DIVINE TRUTHS TODAY. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the GREAT CROWD was revealed to God’s ANOINTED servants on EARTH in 1935. If one of the 24 ELDERS was used to convey that IMPORTANT TRUTH, he would have had to be RESURRECTED to heaven by 1935 at the LATEST. That would indicate that the FIRST RESURRECTION began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?

12. Explain why the spring of 1918 MAY be VIEWED as a POSSIBLE time for the first resurrection to begin.

12 At this point, it may be helpful to consider what might be viewed as a Bible parallel. Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be REASONED that since Jesus was ENTHRONED in the FALL of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is AN INTERESTING POSSIBILITY. Although this CANNOT be DIRECTLY CONFIRMED in the BIBLE, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.


https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007006#h=8


Finally from the same article........

God’s Word does not DISCLOSE a PRECISE DATE for the FIRST RESURRECTION, and you see them make COMMENT as if God gave them a PRECISE DATE first RESURRECTION started.

Their hypocrisy were all over places even in their own publications just that they were too blind to decipher.

Imagine this statement "this can't be directly confirmed in the Bible"

achorladey:
Thank you!

The point below simply means

the GB of JWs and those EATING THE EMBLEMS at the MEMORIAL of christ death(which the JWS see as the ANOINTED ONES) get RESURRECTION in twinkling of an eye UPON DEATH while those still ALIVE wait for THEIR TIME TO DIE, the reason you see THEM trying hard to HANG on to Revelation 20:6. Should they decide to drop REV 20:6 they know their CHRIST INVISIBLE PRESENCE comes to NOTHING and their BELIEFs concerning 1 Thessa comes to NONSENSE.

Therefore rephrasing point 6 it becomes

"6. Which means as some JWs will die some will be quickly resurrected( aka THE BORN AGAINS/ THE Governing body/ THE ANOINTED JWS) while the rest will be left ASLEEP in the grave (THE GREAT CROWD OF OTHER SHEEP or NON ANOINTED JWS)...."

You perfectly understand the thing....

Imagine, we're in Christ presence when people supposed to be resurrecting instantly but at the same time people are still left asleep in the grave.

Jozzy4:
You are a big joke. Jesus will ressurect the saint yet will leave some good ones in the grave for judgment again . And according to you they have the same hope to reign with Christ ? First ressurection ?

It's evident you don't understand this thread, so take a back seat for now

And if you think you have something reasonable to say....i will put it to you that:

Now, list all the event that will happen from now to the end of the whole system of things ACCORDING to the scripture orderly....

Jozzy4:
Jozzy4, you are the most deluded person of the year.

The same final destination of those ruling with Christ ? No be heaven again ? Then it means first ressurection have no significance . cos all those ruling with Christ have a share in it now you are saying people will be sent to their final destination . heaven again to rule with Christ. Haba

For the last time....
The first resurrection is catching away of the saints from the event of Antichrist....

Then there will be resurrection of both the good and the wicked for final judgment....the judgement of the Saints will be their rewards...

I said it, what you people lack is Sunday school lecture....

My friend go for Sunday school tomorrow

Jozzy4:
You are just making noise, for anyone to reign with Christ in heaven, they must have a share in the first ressurection. You are preaching an hoax

Finding and escape route....

You're preaching lies and deceits

Barristter07:
Who are those that will reign with Christ for a thousand years ? Those who experience the first ressurection ?

This is my post "Second coming is the rounding up of the event and is just one event while THE SIGNS that preceding that event is what is happening right now in the word...
Second coming has not happened....if it happened the way scripture described it is what we'll experience just as we can experience the same PRECEEDING SIGNS now...when He comes, AL KINDREDS OF EARTH will wail BECAUSE OF HIM, people will see Him, it will be as lightning shineth from the east to west, that's why Christ warned us against people like Jehovah witness who says He has come invisibly because the event will be opened to everyone and it's not what someone will tell another person about everyone on EARTH will experience the event by themselves.....
None of this was experienced during your presence in 1914 no wonder it was tagged INVISIBLE PRESENCE....

Provide the evidence that all these happened in 1914 your demonic organization claimed the invisible return....

Barristter07:
Mr second coming, since all the dead good and unrighteous will be ressurected when Jesus comes , ( John 5:28,29) , where is the first ressurection ?

When the dead people good and unrighteous will be resurrected is for the final judgment of Christ where everyone will be judge and sent to their final destination including Devil, the first resurrection is catching away of the saints from the event of the Antichrist, that will be allowed to reign for awhile on earth.

I'm tired of this Sunday school lecture abeg...

Go for Sunday school you know go gree

Barristter07:
I already tell the repercussions of both words in my former post.

If Christ come in the cloud that gives credence to his words that the world will see him no more. An aeroplane in the cloud is not visible.

And concerning the change , you finally proved it's for all of them going to heaven, From perishable to imperishable.

As we have borne the image of the one from dust, we will also bear the image of the heavenly one. Says verse 47-49 that's CHANGE for all of them . But before receiving that new body, the present one must die.

1 Corinthians 15:36 " 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. "

You're a liar...

The word is just interpretation....why some interpreted as presence, some COMING but it was describing just one EVENT!

So not that there will be Christ presence first then COMING after!

The change is for those who are still on earth ALIVE when Christ will come because when Christ will come PEOPLE WILL STILL BE ALIVE ON EARTH, healthy and living fine...not that everyone on earth will be in a state of DEATH.

So what apostle Paul described is for those who will be alive when the quick catching away will happen....

In summary of what Apostle Paul meant:

At the second coming of Christ, the dead ones will rise first [having the incorruptible body] while the living one will be changed (their current state which is corrupted body into incorruptible body [as flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God] and these two will reign with Christ)

Barristter07:
Yes , same word but if we go by Presence. First ressurection is happening now. If we go by coming it project it to a distance which kills it significance . As all ressurection occur at last days for both good and unrighteous.

Now that's now even the point now: Who are those who will reign with Christ for 1000 years ? Those having a part in the first ressurection ?

Dubious JWs.....the same word in the same verse cant be given two different event.

Second coming is the rounding up of the event and is just one event while THE SIGNS that preceding that event is what is happening right now in the word...

Second coming has not happened....if it happened the way scripture described it is what we'll experience just as we can experience the same PRECEEDING SIGNS now...when He comes, AL KINDREDS OF EARTH will wail BECAUSE OF HIM, people will see Him, it will be as lightning shineth from the east to west, that's why Christ warned us against people like Jehovah witness who says He has come invisibly because the event will be opened to everyone and it's not what someone will tell another person about everyone on EARTH will experience the event by themselves.....

None of this was experienced during your presence in 1914 no wonder it was tagged INVISIBLE PRESENCE....

Scammer JWs

Jozzy4:
Thanks bro , here is the change.

1Corinthians 15

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.


According to liar Jozzy4 , only his fantasy living ones will experience that change, I wonder if he didn't read 42-44 , where it says the dead are raised imperishable as well .

Paul said when that change occur , the saying that Death is swallowed forever comes to pass , Why is he mentioning death if they all won't die? Only ressurection from death can warrant such victory

Firstly, stop hiding behind bar to spam my mention after I've exposed your lies.

Secondly, your lack of scriptural understanding is greatly affecting you.

Lastly, let this stick to your empty skull...what we're discussing here is the event that will happen at the second coming of Christ.

Where you people are missing it, is using lies to lump this event together...

For instance:
1. The first claim was, the asleep people are those who died before Christ presence
2. The statement in 1 Thess 4 is for those under the Christ presence
3. The claim that those who will be resurrected ASLEEP ONES and the ONES in this current presence of Christ will reign with Him....
4. Yet resurrection is still taking place (that is the quick ones: the one that will not fall asleep)
5. Yet according to your deluded organization, not everyone will reign with Christ not even some but MANY people will be resurrected back to earth.
6. Which means as some JWs will die some will be quickly resurrected while the rest will be left ASLEEP in the grave....

This now leaves us with the question, why will some people be left asleep and some be resurrected instantly when we are already at the Christ presence that the statement of 1 Thess 4 said to happen?

Barristter07:
Presence vs coming. Big gap

So coming or presence aren't from the same Greek word again.....continue

The roman soldiers that Pierce him are very much still alive to witness that . [/quite]

Just show us where the verse says it was Roman soldiers

[quote]I thought you said people will wail and grief, now they will be busy with things of the world ?

You talked about Noah's time and I tell you what happened before the flood NOT WHAT HAPPENED IMMEDIATELY THE EVENT BEGAN

This is how you know you lack scriptural understanding....

The second coming was liking to Noah's flood because people were busy doing the things of the world but immediately the flood started people begin to wail and regret...not invisible like your demonic organization claim where nothing happened.

The second coming will be as a thief in the night when that's why even scripture warned us to always prepared for it

The ark is physical, Christ is not . " the world will see me no more " he declares.

So much for visibility ...

But the same Christ said, He will come in the cloud of heaven...

Even your lying NWT says He will descend from heaven

"Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed-- "

If only you understand the change he was talking about. You won't have spill that nonsense above.

Tell me change to what ?

Reduce the volume of the lies.

The change is to immortal body which the same dead raised will have....so it's a mystery for such to happen to people who will not died...

Just as you said the other time.
Paul was addressing the question: How will the dead raise and IN WHICH BODY....?

You have to lie to separate Paul from the WE....that's what wrong teaching can cause!

Barristter07:
Dead raised instantly in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery. Even Jesus had to wait for three days in the grave to experience his change to spirit being.

Grab it now ?

For the last time, ASLEEP as being used in that verse is DEATH...so what Apostle Paul meant was WE SHALL NOT ALL DIE

Revelation 20:6 is still in your bible right ?

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

Who are those that will be priests of God and reign with Christ ? The one who shares in the first ressurection.

The first resurrection is will happen at the second coming of Christ.

And Christ has not come!

Again its impossible not to die and reign with Christ. First ressurection is a must.

The event of second coming is where first resurrection will occur

May I ask you what exactly are they changing to , and let's see if its not for all of them ?

The dead will be raised to immortal body and the alive will be change/transformed to have the same immortal body...

So it's a mystery for that to happen to living people

Why is it that people who experience the second death were not said to be asleep ? Cos Sleep means death according to you.

For the last time, FALLEN ASLEEP as being USED by Apostle Paul in those verses mean DEATH!

My sarcastic comment on Stephen was to make you realize the word sleep was used cos he had to wait for long before ressurection

But you said Paul who was among the "WE" also has to wait....can you see your confusion?

The point here is that, SLEEP OR ASLEEP when used mean the fellow no longer ALIVE, it's you who decided to read another meaning into it just to propagate your delusion doctrines.

This was plain when Jesus talk about the DEATH of Lazarus, also when Stephen was stoned to death.

Remember, the word SLEEP was used for them to emphasis on their current state NOT WHAT HAPPENED after that....

Reign with Christ , a person must have a share in the first ressurection. Let it sink

And FIRAT resurrection will happen at the second coming, let that blow your empty skull away.

Hahahahaha, Yeeba... Don't tell me that verse is symbolic o ?

It's not symbolic neither was it talking about the REAL ROMAN SOLDIERS

Olodo...

But you said it doesn't mean the soldiers that Peirce him will see him ?

Was the verse says THE SOLDIER THAT PIERCE HIM

Coming vs presence creates a big gap. So I won't go there to avoid creating unnecessary discussion

But isn't the same word translated either to coming or presence...

But let this sink again... Reigning with Christ is for those who have a share in the ressurection.

And the first resurrection will happen at the second coming....grab that with your empty skull

Maximus69:
All these arguments you people just want to engage yourselves is not my problem, i want to learn from whatever you guys are saying.

I believe this include your brothers too, right?

But what i don't understand now is "how the AntiChrist will reign when Jesus Christ is also reigning the same time?"

You are using your JW understanding to ask this question and if we turn the question around, we can then ask you, is Christ not ruling now? according to you..

I think what John saw was Jesus or angel who caught Satan, bind him and threw him into the abyss, verse 3 said "so that the Dragon (Satan) will not be able to mislead people anymore" Revelations 20:1-3

So now that Christ is ruling according to you, why is Satan still misleading people?

So who is the AntiChrist again that will rule the same time with Jesus o!

The beast that will force people to take its mark and without the mark there won't be transactions, which is the purpose of this thread.

The reign is just the moment Christ took away His saints from the world and allowed the beast to run its one world/New world/new order government , not the interpretation your organization have

Barristter07:
Only those who experience the first ressurection reign and sit on thrones as Kings with Christ for the 1000 years . you recall Jesus promise to his disciple's that they will sit on thrones?
You are eating yourself.

And the event will happen at the second coming of Christ....which means Paul statement was misinterpreted by you...because second coming of Christ hasn't taken place based on the evidence from the scripture.

There is a ressurection for all at the last days , its a ressurection to earth . Act 24:15 . they ain't born again, only what is born of spirit becomes spirit.

Very soon you change BORN to RESURRECT....

You lied, what he said was the end hasn't come. Not any actual event

The actual event of the second coming were clearly stated in the scripture. The signs that prelude the second coming were also clearly stated, so what we are experiencing now are the signs of the prelude the event of the second coming. When the event of the second coming will happen it'll be seen by everyone on earth, that's what scripture says.

Hmmm so visible, yet people will took no note like Noah's day. Continue

See another misinterpretation, people of Noah were busy with things of the world not until Noah entered the ark and the door was shut.

1. The ark was visible.
2. When Noah was ordering the animals to enter was visible, people actually saw Noah doing everything...not invisible event!

You lied! ... He says ' We shall all, all , all , all, all of them be changed. Cos they will all taste death It rings a bell.

We shall all be change referring to the ALIVE ONE not including the dead, the dead are RAISED FIRST before the living one will be CHANGE/TRANSFORMED

Are you reading your Bible upside down

That's what happen when you tell lies.

As you keep telling lies...

Barristter07:
If the question was how are the DEAD raised. It automatically means all of them would die. Its how some are raised that's a mystery

Liar nothing is mysterious in dead being raised...what is a mystery is how people will not die and still reign with Christ.That why the will change!

You know Stephen was ressurected instantly ?

So how come When the event Apostle Paul was talking about will be during the Christ presence as you claimed...

Liar...

I ask again: If someone dies and was raised to life instantly, does he FELL ASLEEP ? Emphasis on " Sleeeeeep ? "

Sleep as used in that verse is DEATH....take that into your empty skull.

Person who died has fell asleep....that's the truth from the scripture...

" You are really dubious , you know what's funny about your application here : Apart from first resurrection ... Others are ressurected to Earth . Act 24:15 calls it Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous .

You are actually saying Those Christians won't reign with Christ for the 1000 years

The event of second coming of Christ is what will make people reign with Him for 1000years during the reign if the Antichrist.

Or are you saying the 1000 years of Christ has started

Think: sign of his PRESENCE. Does that ring a bell ?

Different from the actual event of His coming! The signs are just the beginning of sorrow, true or false?

And I said even the roman soldiers that pierce him will see him too and wail right?

Olodo......so you think that verse is about the actual people who crucified Him.

Like Matthew 24:14 right , Goodnews of his kingdom will be preached and the end will come. Isn't it clear he is present now ?

Christ has not come....when He come, the event that describe that will be visible to everyone on earth.

Signs of what ? His PRESENCE

Signs of His coming meaning those are the things we should be expecting to see before He finally APPEAR not that Christ will be appear an those things will still be happening.

Remain unto his PRESENCE . that's the meaning of parousia. Sign of His presence means he is present.

Christ has not appeared so He can be present here

When Christ appears it will be like sun everyone will see Him...

For the bolded, the point is All those who will reign with Christ for the 1,000 years must taste ressurection. And that's what Paul and many others look forward to. Ruling as kings.

All those who will reign with Christ the event will happen after His second coming.

Jozzy4:
Christ presence is just like the days of Noah ... Covered a period of time and end in judgement. Its right there at Matthew 24, but you can't read

liar JWs
So did you tear Matt 24:26-27 part from your Bible

Because Christ said "Wherefore if the shall say unto you, BEHOLD, He is the desert, go not forth... for as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also THE COMING (parousia) of the Son of man be"

Does this indicate an invisible event or something everyone will see?

It's evident that your demonic organization understand that the event described by the second coming of Christ is going to be open one but since they already made the mistake of 1914 they have to come with invisible coming to continue to deceive yourself people.

Barristter07:
If yes, That means Paul and all who won't die- won't reign with Christ

Why?

Born again Christians who looked forward to reigning with Christ as spirit persons.

So that means all the old saints are not looking forward to reign with Christ....that's why they were left ASLEEP in the grave till date....

That's easy, the word parousia means presence. And we saw the signs of his presence already. Christ came invisibly.

The verse says "The Lord Himself will DESCEND from heaven..."

Also, Christ Himself said the sign of His coming are just THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual EVENT when Christ come

And He said His second coming will be so visible not invisible lies you were told "For as lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

"....they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUD OF HEAVEN POWER AND GREAT GLORY"

So how dare you say Christ came invisibly?

This is the reason why Christ admonishes us not to fall for any scammer like JWs who says Jesus has come because the event will be so open that no man can deny it.

He hope to be part of it, but since he died before Christ presence. he was among those who were raised when Christ presence starts .

See double mouth....

Its presently taking place. We are at Christ presence .

So if died today Christ will resurrect me immediately....i thought you people says the number of people who will reign with Christ has completed, so they are actually more than 144,000

Its about those who will reign with Christ. Its clear in the text.

But after the second coming of Christ.

That change can only come by death. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Hence the need to wait for the living to also die. Verse 36 says what you sow cannot come to life UNLESS FIRST IT DIES.

That's why apostle Paul says he shew us a mystery...of both died it's not a mystery since he had already addressed dead being raised/resurrected....not to die is to change/transform, the dead don't need to be change.

Here you are saying what they sow, their physical body will come to life without dying. Not at all.

Now you're using your number 6

Their physical body will be transformed/changed to be conform with the heavenly one like the body of Christ.

It's very clear from Paul, the dead will arise and the living one will be CHANGED/TRANSFORMED

Barristter07:
Paul was answering a question posed at verse 35: how are the dead raised ? ... Verse 51 was a reply that some are raised instantly.

Now you're talking....so it was about how the DEAD RAISED which means when Apostle Paul replied "I shew you a MYSTERY; we shall not ALL SLEEP" he mean we shall not all dead since the point is on HOW THE DEAD IS RAISED..

In fact that fits into the context of that scripture as not to die and yet still reign with Christ is a mystery.

If everybody will die then it's not a mystery.

The we shall not die theory not only doesn't fit the context of the questions he was answering but a direct violation of Revelation 20:6,

People died doesn't fit into that scripture if not it wont be a mystery

After giving you instances where that same word refer to deep sleep , you can still spill the nonsense above. The sense of the word is clear.

The word in that verse means DEATH, how is it hard for you to grab it into your empty skull?

The question was " How are the dead raised ? " " How are the dead raised " .. Some are raised without them fallen alseep . as its instant

And some are not going to FALL ASLEEP mean death since Stephen being stoned to death fall asleep mean he died.

" Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " - Rev 20:6

Reduce the volume of your lies.

I hope my limit is clear here, Rev 20:6 isn't about what you applied 1 Corin 15 or 1 Thess 4 to both are addressing different people.

The text says this will happen at Christ parousia (presence) or arrival. And we have the signs of his PRESENCE already. Which means he is present. It was discerned spiritually . evidenced by people will see him even those who Roman soldiers that hit him u know ?

But the verses you've been using didn't talk about SIGN but what will actually taking place...

Matt 24 Christ said all this ARE THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual event of His second coming.

Both 1 Corin and 1 Thess described what will happen

1. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....does this happen in 1914?

2. The trumpet shall sound....does this happen in 1914?

3. People will see Him and wail because of Him....does this happen in 1914?

If you chose to go by the popular coming is a future occurrence, Its still the same thing. Which means he hasn't even arrived when that event happened . cos verse 15 says those who are left till the coming ( when he is still in a distant future ), and we have the signs of the coming already

Jesus statement was after the event of His second coming the end shall come....

Again will only have the signs and not the actual event which means the statement in both 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 are not yet taking place.

Emusan, I understand you , even those roman soldiers that are dead who pierce him will see him too. Clap for yourself.

You don't, the event of second coming of Christ leads to the end of everything! Where the Antichrist will only be left to operate.

Christ has not come!

The point is: This is the hope many of those first century christians look forward to. Death is a must

But those verses weren't meant for the first century Christians alone but till the second coming of Christ because it was stated clearly by Paul "...that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord...."

it means the event is for those who be around when Christ will come and now Christ has not come!

" if we endure, we will also reign with him; "
- 2Tim 2:12


They must take a part in the ressurection to have this privilege of reigning with him- Revelation 20:6

That's when Christ Himself descends from heaven

Barristter07:
Its not death per say, cos it was applied to living humans too . Get that fact. It simply denote fallen asleep. When used with reference to a dead person, it contrast the fact that such a person is still lying awaiting resurrection

ASLEEP has used by Apostle in that verse mean DEATH

1The 4:15-17
"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "

The bolded explains the difference . those who had fallen asleep or lay rest for all this years will rise first. After that, denoting a period for which those living will also have to die to experience their own resurrection, which in this case is instant.

This particular post, has a lot of points to be raised!

Those who still living will HAPPEN TILL THE COMING OF CHRIST.

You said "FALLEN ASLEEP OR REST FOR ALL THIS YEARS", Does "for all this years" include the old saints or starting from time of Christ?

The verses emphatically say "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...." Has the Lord come down from heaven?

Also, "WE who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Emphasis on WE as you said earlier, was Apostle Paul part of the WE?

Because I can see you have dodged your own emphasis.

Now do you agree that this event has taken place still taking place?

Revelation 20:6 says Happy is ANYONE who took part in the first ressurection because they shall rule with him for a thousand years.

Just I've been correcting your brother since, Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ and not have the mark of the beast either in their head or hand.

This is the same Hope Paul and his counterparts to whom he wrote the letter had. Ruling as kings with Christ.

So you mean Paul was part of the WE in those verses?

Logic demand that there should be no reason to separate the living from the dead if the death of the living ones is not essential. All should have been changed

You don't know this statement is against you and not me. let me rephrase the question

What is the reason of separating the dead from the living when both will eventually died?

The reason while the living are separated from the dead is what Apostle Paul himself said in 1 Corin 15 when he said "I show you a MYSTERY...." the mystery here is that "we shall not all SLEEP....but CHANGE" can you see?

If both will die then there's no need to CHANGE/TRANSFORM

Jozzy4:
Just admit it already, the word Paul use is not the same as die. Which has a different Greek word and was used in that same 1Cor 15. It simply means resting for a period of time.

The word Paul used is FALLEN ASLEEP which occurred in many places in the scripture to mean the person is DEATH

>>>Lazarus fallen asleep
>>>Stephen being stoned crying with a loud voice and fell asleep...

All this indicated that what Apostle Paul meant by fallen asleep is death, so we shall not all SLEEP mean we shall not all DIED

That Word conveys a deep sleep . Doesn't apply to someone ressurected in an instant . it was also applied to Peter when he was in prison. Its in no way a synonym for death. Hence Peter would be a dead man when it says he fell asleep.

You're the one who decided to interpret it as DEEP SLEEP as the word was used by Paul it means DEATH in a sense of how it has been applied to many people in the scripture.

Its still going on. Its known as the first ressurection which is for those who will rule with Christ

So you mean Christ is still resurrecting people to heaven now.

I thought your lying organization said, the number of 144,000 who will reign with Christ is over

Everyone who have the hope of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6

Again, Rev 20:6 it's not about anyone who has the hope of ruling with Christ but those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast and worshipped the beast and also beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are you not hoping of ruling with Christ, if I may ask?

Everyone knows that Greek word means presence . but let's say you which it's rendered coming , Coming can mean " Arrival " agree ?

Coming is a future sentence not what have been done....

Arrival means the action has been done....

Many scriptures talk about what will happen at the second coming...
>>>Trumpet shall sound: How many hear the trumpet in 1914?
>>>Christ will made a loud voice to cause the dead in Him to resurrect, How will this be without people hearing Him?
>>>The Lord HIMSELF shall descend, even Revelation supported this by saying PEOPLE WILL SEE HIM.

That would in essence mean Sign of his arrival. Which is the exact timing for your so called flying in the air . y'all should be flying already

Time of His arrival doesn't mean He has arrived....

When He arrived....people will wail because of Him Rev 1:7 did this happen in 1914?

First ressurection is going on for those who have the heavenly calling. Death is compulsory to have a part in ruling with Christ.

First resurrection according to Rev 20:6 is those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, who refuse the beast worship and its mark either on their head or hand.

Has this event taken place?

Jozzy4:
Liarrrrrrrrr Jozzy4, 419, that same word was applied to living persons proving The word itself doesn't mean death or equal death.

Your lie was that SLEEP NEVER SYNONYMOUS TO DEATH nobody says sleep means death but our point is what you agreed with below.

But when its used for a dead person, means they are sleeping in death or waiting in the grave.

The main point here is that THE PERSON REFERRING to it's no more ALIVE which means as Apostle Paul used FALLEN ASLEEP it means they were no more in the state of living.

It carries a sense of resting in death awaiting who will wake them up.

Whether waiting in death or in grave, the key word is that the person no more in the state of ALIVE!

While for living long period of rest until they are awaken. the concept is to be in a state of sleep. Closing eyes and opening it immediately is not sleep.

It has been established that FALLEN ASLEEP as used by Apostle Paul means DEATH, you're the one who decided to add your own as it's twinkling of an eye or waiting in death in grave.

Revelation 20:6 says for anyone to rule with Christ as King and Priest , they must die and be ressurected . so death is compulsory.

That's not the point of Rev 20:6, you're just twisting scripture here to suit your evil desires.

Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, they never worshipped the beast or having the mark of the beast either in their head or hand. It's only an agent of darkness that can comfortably twist scripture the way you people do.

But for some , since their resurrection would be instant they won't actually sleep.

This is where the point lies, THE SOME here, who are they?

WASN'T APOSTLE PAUL part of the WE in that verse?

1 Thess 4:16-17 talk about "Christ descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel"

You people took "....with the voice of the archangel..." literally to mean Christ is an Angel but took the rest as figurative....


Hypocrite JWs

Jozzy4:
You are now agreeing with claim ba? @ red . Breeze don blow at your lies

First of all, the red part you pointed out was a reference to what he said, about Greek word for DEATH which I mean they might not be the same.

So far you're the liar here who claimed Sleep is not synonymous to Death

The Person simply died . But didn't sleep as they are raised in the twinkling of an eye.

The Greek word for die is different from the one at 1Cor 15:51. So Paul isn't saying they won't die

The problem you have is lack of comprehension...
FALLEN ASLEEP has been used by Apostle Paul is about DEATH.

If the person are raised in the twinkling of an eye....then beg for when did that raising in twinkling of an eye stop? Are people died today still raised in twinkling of an eye?

Revelation 20:6 says ruling with Christ is for those who experience first resurrection . showing death is a must. Before resurrection must come death

We all know before resurrection there must be death the point is, at the second coming of Christ not everyone will die before they meet the Lord.

We are now at Christ's presence ( Matthew 24 the signs are evident ) . and that's the period the Bible placed the first ressurection . 1The 4:15-17 so Paul is currently ressurected to heaven to rule with Christ

Christ has not come....Matt 24 stated it clearly that whatever that'll happen all just SIGNS of His second coming.

Only your organization uses the event of World War to lie about second coming.

It does separate , this is where 1The 4:15-17 comes in it says ' The living won't precede those already died for years ' . cos those living at the time of Christ presence would have to wait for their own death too, but unlike those ones. They would be ressurected in an instant as a spirit being.

So what of WE today

Remember in that verse your brother emphasis on WE which included Apostle Paul.

Barristter07:
The exact same word was applied to Jesus disciples at Gethsemane when they were sleeping, Does that mean he met them as dead men ?

You look at the content of a statement first!

Besides, the bone contention here is, does sleep synonymous with death?

Which your brother first claimed it was not!

I want us to be highly objective here. That Greek word in itself is not the same as death but for emphasis where death is talked about its added to show that such a person is still in the grave AWAITING A Ressurection. E.g Lazarus

It might not be the same as death but it's evident wherever it used depending on the content means DEATH, is it true or false?

For someone ressurected instantly, that won't apply. He was never in a waiting state of rest.

The question is, before this instant resurrection, what is the state of the person?

Also, who and who will experience instant resurrection?

I believe Revelation 20:6 quoted earlier is clear enough.

To you

Not just death, that word when used in connection with death signifies someone awaiting a resurrection , the word carries the meaning of resting for a long period or waiting. Hence it's used for living persons too . its not same as death!!! . there is a different Greek word for " death " and while Paul used it in that same 1Corinthians 15, he didn't use it at verse 51. Why? Take a look at the text again.

" Look! I tell you a sacred secret: WE will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, AND WE will be changed.

Emphasis on " we"

Emphasis on "WE" was Apostle Paul part of the WE or the rest of the people?

Is Apostle still in the grave now awaiting resurrection?

To experience the change a person must be raised up incorruptible and that's by dying. But he was only emphasizing that some would be instant. Like he asked earlier: someone who closed their eyes and open it immediately , Is that sleep?

Clarify how the instant will be...
is the person will die and immediately he'll be resurrected?

Who are the one who will experience instant resurrection and who are the one who will wait in the grave?

Let's see if the scripture separates any.

Jozzy4:
" sleep" to rest for a period of time . in humans people rest majorly at night for hours during which there bodies are at rest. Even Lazarus has been dead for days , so its understandable why death is likened to sleep . but when someone says we shall not all sleep. Its never the same as we shall not all die. Never !


Excerpt from the link above ,




" Notice that regarding the death of both Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter, Jesus compared death to sleep. That is a fitting comparison. Why? Sleep is an unconscious state and suitably conveys the idea of REST from pain and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; see the accompanying box, “Death Is Like a Deep Sleep.”) Jesus’ early disciples clearly understood the true condition of the dead. “To the followers of Jesus death was a sleep, and the grave a resting-place . . . for those who had died in the faith,” * states the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics

The word " sleep " conveys the idea of some period of rest.


Let me ask: If someone close their eyes and open it instantly , Is that the same as sleep/rest?

One thing that is certained is that most you JWs will never accept you made mistakes thinking you know more than the rest.

Your first claim was "SLEEP is never SYNONYMOUS to Death"

This is how you put it in your own word "Thank you, let me repeat this .... Sleep indicate a period of rest. Paul is not saying they won't die . The word sleep is not synonymous with death."

But it's evident throughout the scriptures how sleep was equated with death.

You did this just to disprove that verse without looking at where scripture uses the same word.

Look at how Apostle Paul himself put it here
"1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep."

Apostle Paul used FALLING ASLEEP here to mean death and it's evident from that passage that "....we shall not all SLEEP...." means we shall not all died but only a manipulator like you and your organization will pervert the meaning of that verse.