₦airaland Forum

Barristter07:
I already tell the repercussions of both words in my former post.

If Christ come in the cloud that gives credence to his words that the world will see him no more. An aeroplane in the cloud is not visible.

And concerning the change , you finally proved it's for all of them going to heaven, From perishable to imperishable.

As we have borne the image of the one from dust, we will also bear the image of the heavenly one. Says verse 47-49 that's CHANGE for all of them . But before receiving that new body, the present one must die.

1 Corinthians 15:36 " 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. "

You're a liar...

The word is just interpretation....why some interpreted as presence, some COMING but it was describing just one EVENT!

So not that there will be Christ presence first then COMING after!

The change is for those who are still on earth ALIVE when Christ will come because when Christ will come PEOPLE WILL STILL BE ALIVE ON EARTH, healthy and living fine...not that everyone on earth will be in a state of DEATH.

So what apostle Paul described is for those who will be alive when the quick catching away will happen....

In summary of what Apostle Paul meant:

At the second coming of Christ, the dead ones will rise first [having the incorruptible body] while the living one will be changed (their current state which is corrupted body into incorruptible body [as flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God] and these two will reign with Christ)

Barristter07:
Yes , same word but if we go by Presence. First ressurection is happening now. If we go by coming it project it to a distance which kills it significance . As all ressurection occur at last days for both good and unrighteous.

Now that's now even the point now: Who are those who will reign with Christ for 1000 years ? Those having a part in the first ressurection ?

Dubious JWs.....the same word in the same verse cant be given two different event.

Second coming is the rounding up of the event and is just one event while THE SIGNS that preceding that event is what is happening right now in the word...

Second coming has not happened....if it happened the way scripture described it is what we'll experience just as we can experience the same PRECEEDING SIGNS now...when He comes, AL KINDREDS OF EARTH will wail BECAUSE OF HIM, people will see Him, it will be as lightning shineth from the east to west, that's why Christ warned us against people like Jehovah witness who says He has come invisibly because the event will be opened to everyone and it's not what someone will tell another person about everyone on EARTH will experience the event by themselves.....

None of this was experienced during your presence in 1914 no wonder it was tagged INVISIBLE PRESENCE....

Scammer JWs

Jozzy4:
Thanks bro , here is the change.

1Corinthians 15

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.


According to liar Jozzy4 , only his fantasy living ones will experience that change, I wonder if he didn't read 42-44 , where it says the dead are raised imperishable as well .

Paul said when that change occur , the saying that Death is swallowed forever comes to pass , Why is he mentioning death if they all won't die? Only ressurection from death can warrant such victory

Firstly, stop hiding behind bar to spam my mention after I've exposed your lies.

Secondly, your lack of scriptural understanding is greatly affecting you.

Lastly, let this stick to your empty skull...what we're discussing here is the event that will happen at the second coming of Christ.

Where you people are missing it, is using lies to lump this event together...

For instance:
1. The first claim was, the asleep people are those who died before Christ presence
2. The statement in 1 Thess 4 is for those under the Christ presence
3. The claim that those who will be resurrected ASLEEP ONES and the ONES in this current presence of Christ will reign with Him....
4. Yet resurrection is still taking place (that is the quick ones: the one that will not fall asleep)
5. Yet according to your deluded organization, not everyone will reign with Christ not even some but MANY people will be resurrected back to earth.
6. Which means as some JWs will die some will be quickly resurrected while the rest will be left ASLEEP in the grave....

This now leaves us with the question, why will some people be left asleep and some be resurrected instantly when we are already at the Christ presence that the statement of 1 Thess 4 said to happen?

Barristter07:
Presence vs coming. Big gap

So coming or presence aren't from the same Greek word again.....continue

The roman soldiers that Pierce him are very much still alive to witness that . [/quite]

Just show us where the verse says it was Roman soldiers

[quote]I thought you said people will wail and grief, now they will be busy with things of the world ?

You talked about Noah's time and I tell you what happened before the flood NOT WHAT HAPPENED IMMEDIATELY THE EVENT BEGAN

This is how you know you lack scriptural understanding....

The second coming was liking to Noah's flood because people were busy doing the things of the world but immediately the flood started people begin to wail and regret...not invisible like your demonic organization claim where nothing happened.

The second coming will be as a thief in the night when that's why even scripture warned us to always prepared for it

The ark is physical, Christ is not . " the world will see me no more " he declares.

So much for visibility ...

But the same Christ said, He will come in the cloud of heaven...

Even your lying NWT says He will descend from heaven

"Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed-- "

If only you understand the change he was talking about. You won't have spill that nonsense above.

Tell me change to what ?

Reduce the volume of the lies.

The change is to immortal body which the same dead raised will have....so it's a mystery for such to happen to people who will not died...

Just as you said the other time.
Paul was addressing the question: How will the dead raise and IN WHICH BODY....?

You have to lie to separate Paul from the WE....that's what wrong teaching can cause!

Barristter07:
Dead raised instantly in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery. Even Jesus had to wait for three days in the grave to experience his change to spirit being.

Grab it now ?

For the last time, ASLEEP as being used in that verse is DEATH...so what Apostle Paul meant was WE SHALL NOT ALL DIE

Revelation 20:6 is still in your bible right ?

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

Who are those that will be priests of God and reign with Christ ? The one who shares in the first ressurection.

The first resurrection is will happen at the second coming of Christ.

And Christ has not come!

Again its impossible not to die and reign with Christ. First ressurection is a must.

The event of second coming is where first resurrection will occur

May I ask you what exactly are they changing to , and let's see if its not for all of them ?

The dead will be raised to immortal body and the alive will be change/transformed to have the same immortal body...

So it's a mystery for that to happen to living people

Why is it that people who experience the second death were not said to be asleep ? Cos Sleep means death according to you.

For the last time, FALLEN ASLEEP as being USED by Apostle Paul in those verses mean DEATH!

My sarcastic comment on Stephen was to make you realize the word sleep was used cos he had to wait for long before ressurection

But you said Paul who was among the "WE" also has to wait....can you see your confusion?

The point here is that, SLEEP OR ASLEEP when used mean the fellow no longer ALIVE, it's you who decided to read another meaning into it just to propagate your delusion doctrines.

This was plain when Jesus talk about the DEATH of Lazarus, also when Stephen was stoned to death.

Remember, the word SLEEP was used for them to emphasis on their current state NOT WHAT HAPPENED after that....

Reign with Christ , a person must have a share in the first ressurection. Let it sink

And FIRAT resurrection will happen at the second coming, let that blow your empty skull away.

Hahahahaha, Yeeba... Don't tell me that verse is symbolic o ?

It's not symbolic neither was it talking about the REAL ROMAN SOLDIERS

Olodo...

But you said it doesn't mean the soldiers that Peirce him will see him ?

Was the verse says THE SOLDIER THAT PIERCE HIM

Coming vs presence creates a big gap. So I won't go there to avoid creating unnecessary discussion

But isn't the same word translated either to coming or presence...

But let this sink again... Reigning with Christ is for those who have a share in the ressurection.

And the first resurrection will happen at the second coming....grab that with your empty skull

Maximus69:
All these arguments you people just want to engage yourselves is not my problem, i want to learn from whatever you guys are saying.

I believe this include your brothers too, right?

But what i don't understand now is "how the AntiChrist will reign when Jesus Christ is also reigning the same time?"

You are using your JW understanding to ask this question and if we turn the question around, we can then ask you, is Christ not ruling now? according to you..

I think what John saw was Jesus or angel who caught Satan, bind him and threw him into the abyss, verse 3 said "so that the Dragon (Satan) will not be able to mislead people anymore" Revelations 20:1-3

So now that Christ is ruling according to you, why is Satan still misleading people?

So who is the AntiChrist again that will rule the same time with Jesus o!

The beast that will force people to take its mark and without the mark there won't be transactions, which is the purpose of this thread.

The reign is just the moment Christ took away His saints from the world and allowed the beast to run its one world/New world/new order government , not the interpretation your organization have

Barristter07:
Only those who experience the first ressurection reign and sit on thrones as Kings with Christ for the 1000 years . you recall Jesus promise to his disciple's that they will sit on thrones?
You are eating yourself.

And the event will happen at the second coming of Christ....which means Paul statement was misinterpreted by you...because second coming of Christ hasn't taken place based on the evidence from the scripture.

There is a ressurection for all at the last days , its a ressurection to earth . Act 24:15 . they ain't born again, only what is born of spirit becomes spirit.

Very soon you change BORN to RESURRECT....

You lied, what he said was the end hasn't come. Not any actual event

The actual event of the second coming were clearly stated in the scripture. The signs that prelude the second coming were also clearly stated, so what we are experiencing now are the signs of the prelude the event of the second coming. When the event of the second coming will happen it'll be seen by everyone on earth, that's what scripture says.

Hmmm so visible, yet people will took no note like Noah's day. Continue

See another misinterpretation, people of Noah were busy with things of the world not until Noah entered the ark and the door was shut.

1. The ark was visible.
2. When Noah was ordering the animals to enter was visible, people actually saw Noah doing everything...not invisible event!

You lied! ... He says ' We shall all, all , all , all, all of them be changed. Cos they will all taste death It rings a bell.

We shall all be change referring to the ALIVE ONE not including the dead, the dead are RAISED FIRST before the living one will be CHANGE/TRANSFORMED

Are you reading your Bible upside down

That's what happen when you tell lies.

As you keep telling lies...

Barristter07:
If the question was how are the DEAD raised. It automatically means all of them would die. Its how some are raised that's a mystery

Liar nothing is mysterious in dead being raised...what is a mystery is how people will not die and still reign with Christ.That why the will change!

You know Stephen was ressurected instantly ?

So how come When the event Apostle Paul was talking about will be during the Christ presence as you claimed...

Liar...

I ask again: If someone dies and was raised to life instantly, does he FELL ASLEEP ? Emphasis on " Sleeeeeep ? "

Sleep as used in that verse is DEATH....take that into your empty skull.

Person who died has fell asleep....that's the truth from the scripture...

" You are really dubious , you know what's funny about your application here : Apart from first resurrection ... Others are ressurected to Earth . Act 24:15 calls it Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous .

You are actually saying Those Christians won't reign with Christ for the 1000 years

The event of second coming of Christ is what will make people reign with Him for 1000years during the reign if the Antichrist.

Or are you saying the 1000 years of Christ has started

Think: sign of his PRESENCE. Does that ring a bell ?

Different from the actual event of His coming! The signs are just the beginning of sorrow, true or false?

And I said even the roman soldiers that pierce him will see him too and wail right?

Olodo......so you think that verse is about the actual people who crucified Him.

Like Matthew 24:14 right , Goodnews of his kingdom will be preached and the end will come. Isn't it clear he is present now ?

Christ has not come....when He come, the event that describe that will be visible to everyone on earth.

Signs of what ? His PRESENCE

Signs of His coming meaning those are the things we should be expecting to see before He finally APPEAR not that Christ will be appear an those things will still be happening.

Remain unto his PRESENCE . that's the meaning of parousia. Sign of His presence means he is present.

Christ has not appeared so He can be present here

When Christ appears it will be like sun everyone will see Him...

For the bolded, the point is All those who will reign with Christ for the 1,000 years must taste ressurection. And that's what Paul and many others look forward to. Ruling as kings.

All those who will reign with Christ the event will happen after His second coming.

Jozzy4:
Christ presence is just like the days of Noah ... Covered a period of time and end in judgement. Its right there at Matthew 24, but you can't read

liar JWs
So did you tear Matt 24:26-27 part from your Bible

Because Christ said "Wherefore if the shall say unto you, BEHOLD, He is the desert, go not forth... for as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also THE COMING (parousia) of the Son of man be"

Does this indicate an invisible event or something everyone will see?

It's evident that your demonic organization understand that the event described by the second coming of Christ is going to be open one but since they already made the mistake of 1914 they have to come with invisible coming to continue to deceive yourself people.

Barristter07:
If yes, That means Paul and all who won't die- won't reign with Christ

Why?

Born again Christians who looked forward to reigning with Christ as spirit persons.

So that means all the old saints are not looking forward to reign with Christ....that's why they were left ASLEEP in the grave till date....

That's easy, the word parousia means presence. And we saw the signs of his presence already. Christ came invisibly.

The verse says "The Lord Himself will DESCEND from heaven..."

Also, Christ Himself said the sign of His coming are just THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual EVENT when Christ come

And He said His second coming will be so visible not invisible lies you were told "For as lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

"....they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUD OF HEAVEN POWER AND GREAT GLORY"

So how dare you say Christ came invisibly?

This is the reason why Christ admonishes us not to fall for any scammer like JWs who says Jesus has come because the event will be so open that no man can deny it.

He hope to be part of it, but since he died before Christ presence. he was among those who were raised when Christ presence starts .

See double mouth....

Its presently taking place. We are at Christ presence .

So if died today Christ will resurrect me immediately....i thought you people says the number of people who will reign with Christ has completed, so they are actually more than 144,000

Its about those who will reign with Christ. Its clear in the text.

But after the second coming of Christ.

That change can only come by death. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Hence the need to wait for the living to also die. Verse 36 says what you sow cannot come to life UNLESS FIRST IT DIES.

That's why apostle Paul says he shew us a mystery...of both died it's not a mystery since he had already addressed dead being raised/resurrected....not to die is to change/transform, the dead don't need to be change.

Here you are saying what they sow, their physical body will come to life without dying. Not at all.

Now you're using your number 6

Their physical body will be transformed/changed to be conform with the heavenly one like the body of Christ.

It's very clear from Paul, the dead will arise and the living one will be CHANGED/TRANSFORMED

Barristter07:
Paul was answering a question posed at verse 35: how are the dead raised ? ... Verse 51 was a reply that some are raised instantly.

Now you're talking....so it was about how the DEAD RAISED which means when Apostle Paul replied "I shew you a MYSTERY; we shall not ALL SLEEP" he mean we shall not all dead since the point is on HOW THE DEAD IS RAISED..

In fact that fits into the context of that scripture as not to die and yet still reign with Christ is a mystery.

If everybody will die then it's not a mystery.

The we shall not die theory not only doesn't fit the context of the questions he was answering but a direct violation of Revelation 20:6,

People died doesn't fit into that scripture if not it wont be a mystery

After giving you instances where that same word refer to deep sleep , you can still spill the nonsense above. The sense of the word is clear.

The word in that verse means DEATH, how is it hard for you to grab it into your empty skull?

The question was " How are the dead raised ? " " How are the dead raised " .. Some are raised without them fallen alseep . as its instant

And some are not going to FALL ASLEEP mean death since Stephen being stoned to death fall asleep mean he died.

" Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " - Rev 20:6

Reduce the volume of your lies.

I hope my limit is clear here, Rev 20:6 isn't about what you applied 1 Corin 15 or 1 Thess 4 to both are addressing different people.

The text says this will happen at Christ parousia (presence) or arrival. And we have the signs of his PRESENCE already. Which means he is present. It was discerned spiritually . evidenced by people will see him even those who Roman soldiers that hit him u know ?

But the verses you've been using didn't talk about SIGN but what will actually taking place...

Matt 24 Christ said all this ARE THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual event of His second coming.

Both 1 Corin and 1 Thess described what will happen

1. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....does this happen in 1914?

2. The trumpet shall sound....does this happen in 1914?

3. People will see Him and wail because of Him....does this happen in 1914?

If you chose to go by the popular coming is a future occurrence, Its still the same thing. Which means he hasn't even arrived when that event happened . cos verse 15 says those who are left till the coming ( when he is still in a distant future ), and we have the signs of the coming already

Jesus statement was after the event of His second coming the end shall come....

Again will only have the signs and not the actual event which means the statement in both 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 are not yet taking place.

Emusan, I understand you , even those roman soldiers that are dead who pierce him will see him too. Clap for yourself.

You don't, the event of second coming of Christ leads to the end of everything! Where the Antichrist will only be left to operate.

Christ has not come!

The point is: This is the hope many of those first century christians look forward to. Death is a must

But those verses weren't meant for the first century Christians alone but till the second coming of Christ because it was stated clearly by Paul "...that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord...."

it means the event is for those who be around when Christ will come and now Christ has not come!

" if we endure, we will also reign with him; "
- 2Tim 2:12


They must take a part in the ressurection to have this privilege of reigning with him- Revelation 20:6

That's when Christ Himself descends from heaven

Barristter07:
Its not death per say, cos it was applied to living humans too . Get that fact. It simply denote fallen asleep. When used with reference to a dead person, it contrast the fact that such a person is still lying awaiting resurrection

ASLEEP has used by Apostle in that verse mean DEATH

1The 4:15-17
"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "

The bolded explains the difference . those who had fallen asleep or lay rest for all this years will rise first. After that, denoting a period for which those living will also have to die to experience their own resurrection, which in this case is instant.

This particular post, has a lot of points to be raised!

Those who still living will HAPPEN TILL THE COMING OF CHRIST.

You said "FALLEN ASLEEP OR REST FOR ALL THIS YEARS", Does "for all this years" include the old saints or starting from time of Christ?

The verses emphatically say "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...." Has the Lord come down from heaven?

Also, "WE who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Emphasis on WE as you said earlier, was Apostle Paul part of the WE?

Because I can see you have dodged your own emphasis.

Now do you agree that this event has taken place still taking place?

Revelation 20:6 says Happy is ANYONE who took part in the first ressurection because they shall rule with him for a thousand years.

Just I've been correcting your brother since, Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ and not have the mark of the beast either in their head or hand.

This is the same Hope Paul and his counterparts to whom he wrote the letter had. Ruling as kings with Christ.

So you mean Paul was part of the WE in those verses?

Logic demand that there should be no reason to separate the living from the dead if the death of the living ones is not essential. All should have been changed

You don't know this statement is against you and not me. let me rephrase the question

What is the reason of separating the dead from the living when both will eventually died?

The reason while the living are separated from the dead is what Apostle Paul himself said in 1 Corin 15 when he said "I show you a MYSTERY...." the mystery here is that "we shall not all SLEEP....but CHANGE" can you see?

If both will die then there's no need to CHANGE/TRANSFORM

Jozzy4:
Just admit it already, the word Paul use is not the same as die. Which has a different Greek word and was used in that same 1Cor 15. It simply means resting for a period of time.

The word Paul used is FALLEN ASLEEP which occurred in many places in the scripture to mean the person is DEATH

>>>Lazarus fallen asleep
>>>Stephen being stoned crying with a loud voice and fell asleep...

All this indicated that what Apostle Paul meant by fallen asleep is death, so we shall not all SLEEP mean we shall not all DIED

That Word conveys a deep sleep . Doesn't apply to someone ressurected in an instant . it was also applied to Peter when he was in prison. Its in no way a synonym for death. Hence Peter would be a dead man when it says he fell asleep.

You're the one who decided to interpret it as DEEP SLEEP as the word was used by Paul it means DEATH in a sense of how it has been applied to many people in the scripture.

Its still going on. Its known as the first ressurection which is for those who will rule with Christ

So you mean Christ is still resurrecting people to heaven now.

I thought your lying organization said, the number of 144,000 who will reign with Christ is over

Everyone who have the hope of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6

Again, Rev 20:6 it's not about anyone who has the hope of ruling with Christ but those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast and worshipped the beast and also beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are you not hoping of ruling with Christ, if I may ask?

Everyone knows that Greek word means presence . but let's say you which it's rendered coming , Coming can mean " Arrival " agree ?

Coming is a future sentence not what have been done....

Arrival means the action has been done....

Many scriptures talk about what will happen at the second coming...
>>>Trumpet shall sound: How many hear the trumpet in 1914?
>>>Christ will made a loud voice to cause the dead in Him to resurrect, How will this be without people hearing Him?
>>>The Lord HIMSELF shall descend, even Revelation supported this by saying PEOPLE WILL SEE HIM.

That would in essence mean Sign of his arrival. Which is the exact timing for your so called flying in the air . y'all should be flying already

Time of His arrival doesn't mean He has arrived....

When He arrived....people will wail because of Him Rev 1:7 did this happen in 1914?

First ressurection is going on for those who have the heavenly calling. Death is compulsory to have a part in ruling with Christ.

First resurrection according to Rev 20:6 is those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, who refuse the beast worship and its mark either on their head or hand.

Has this event taken place?

Jozzy4:
Liarrrrrrrrr Jozzy4, 419, that same word was applied to living persons proving The word itself doesn't mean death or equal death.

Your lie was that SLEEP NEVER SYNONYMOUS TO DEATH nobody says sleep means death but our point is what you agreed with below.

But when its used for a dead person, means they are sleeping in death or waiting in the grave.

The main point here is that THE PERSON REFERRING to it's no more ALIVE which means as Apostle Paul used FALLEN ASLEEP it means they were no more in the state of living.

It carries a sense of resting in death awaiting who will wake them up.

Whether waiting in death or in grave, the key word is that the person no more in the state of ALIVE!

While for living long period of rest until they are awaken. the concept is to be in a state of sleep. Closing eyes and opening it immediately is not sleep.

It has been established that FALLEN ASLEEP as used by Apostle Paul means DEATH, you're the one who decided to add your own as it's twinkling of an eye or waiting in death in grave.

Revelation 20:6 says for anyone to rule with Christ as King and Priest , they must die and be ressurected . so death is compulsory.

That's not the point of Rev 20:6, you're just twisting scripture here to suit your evil desires.

Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, they never worshipped the beast or having the mark of the beast either in their head or hand. It's only an agent of darkness that can comfortably twist scripture the way you people do.

But for some , since their resurrection would be instant they won't actually sleep.

This is where the point lies, THE SOME here, who are they?

WASN'T APOSTLE PAUL part of the WE in that verse?

1 Thess 4:16-17 talk about "Christ descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel"

You people took "....with the voice of the archangel..." literally to mean Christ is an Angel but took the rest as figurative....


Hypocrite JWs

Jozzy4:
You are now agreeing with claim ba? @ red . Breeze don blow at your lies

First of all, the red part you pointed out was a reference to what he said, about Greek word for DEATH which I mean they might not be the same.

So far you're the liar here who claimed Sleep is not synonymous to Death

The Person simply died . But didn't sleep as they are raised in the twinkling of an eye.

The Greek word for die is different from the one at 1Cor 15:51. So Paul isn't saying they won't die

The problem you have is lack of comprehension...
FALLEN ASLEEP has been used by Apostle Paul is about DEATH.

If the person are raised in the twinkling of an eye....then beg for when did that raising in twinkling of an eye stop? Are people died today still raised in twinkling of an eye?

Revelation 20:6 says ruling with Christ is for those who experience first resurrection . showing death is a must. Before resurrection must come death

We all know before resurrection there must be death the point is, at the second coming of Christ not everyone will die before they meet the Lord.

We are now at Christ's presence ( Matthew 24 the signs are evident ) . and that's the period the Bible placed the first ressurection . 1The 4:15-17 so Paul is currently ressurected to heaven to rule with Christ

Christ has not come....Matt 24 stated it clearly that whatever that'll happen all just SIGNS of His second coming.

Only your organization uses the event of World War to lie about second coming.

It does separate , this is where 1The 4:15-17 comes in it says ' The living won't precede those already died for years ' . cos those living at the time of Christ presence would have to wait for their own death too, but unlike those ones. They would be ressurected in an instant as a spirit being.

So what of WE today

Remember in that verse your brother emphasis on WE which included Apostle Paul.

Barristter07:
The exact same word was applied to Jesus disciples at Gethsemane when they were sleeping, Does that mean he met them as dead men ?

You look at the content of a statement first!

Besides, the bone contention here is, does sleep synonymous with death?

Which your brother first claimed it was not!

I want us to be highly objective here. That Greek word in itself is not the same as death but for emphasis where death is talked about its added to show that such a person is still in the grave AWAITING A Ressurection. E.g Lazarus

It might not be the same as death but it's evident wherever it used depending on the content means DEATH, is it true or false?

For someone ressurected instantly, that won't apply. He was never in a waiting state of rest.

The question is, before this instant resurrection, what is the state of the person?

Also, who and who will experience instant resurrection?

I believe Revelation 20:6 quoted earlier is clear enough.

To you

Not just death, that word when used in connection with death signifies someone awaiting a resurrection , the word carries the meaning of resting for a long period or waiting. Hence it's used for living persons too . its not same as death!!! . there is a different Greek word for " death " and while Paul used it in that same 1Corinthians 15, he didn't use it at verse 51. Why? Take a look at the text again.

" Look! I tell you a sacred secret: WE will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, AND WE will be changed.

Emphasis on " we"

Emphasis on "WE" was Apostle Paul part of the WE or the rest of the people?

Is Apostle still in the grave now awaiting resurrection?

To experience the change a person must be raised up incorruptible and that's by dying. But he was only emphasizing that some would be instant. Like he asked earlier: someone who closed their eyes and open it immediately , Is that sleep?

Clarify how the instant will be...
is the person will die and immediately he'll be resurrected?

Who are the one who will experience instant resurrection and who are the one who will wait in the grave?

Let's see if the scripture separates any.

Jozzy4:
" sleep" to rest for a period of time . in humans people rest majorly at night for hours during which there bodies are at rest. Even Lazarus has been dead for days , so its understandable why death is likened to sleep . but when someone says we shall not all sleep. Its never the same as we shall not all die. Never !


Excerpt from the link above ,




" Notice that regarding the death of both Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter, Jesus compared death to sleep. That is a fitting comparison. Why? Sleep is an unconscious state and suitably conveys the idea of REST from pain and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; see the accompanying box, “Death Is Like a Deep Sleep.”) Jesus’ early disciples clearly understood the true condition of the dead. “To the followers of Jesus death was a sleep, and the grave a resting-place . . . for those who had died in the faith,” * states the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics

The word " sleep " conveys the idea of some period of rest.


Let me ask: If someone close their eyes and open it instantly , Is that the same as sleep/rest?

One thing that is certained is that most you JWs will never accept you made mistakes thinking you know more than the rest.

Your first claim was "SLEEP is never SYNONYMOUS to Death"

This is how you put it in your own word "Thank you, let me repeat this .... Sleep indicate a period of rest. Paul is not saying they won't die . The word sleep is not synonymous with death."

But it's evident throughout the scriptures how sleep was equated with death.

You did this just to disprove that verse without looking at where scripture uses the same word.

Look at how Apostle Paul himself put it here
"1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep."

Apostle Paul used FALLING ASLEEP here to mean death and it's evident from that passage that "....we shall not all SLEEP...." means we shall not all died but only a manipulator like you and your organization will pervert the meaning of that verse.

That's why I always say Jehovah witness are the most hypocrites...

Didn't your organization contrast sleep with death?

for instance, the case of Lazarus before Jesus raised him up.

This is a link where your demonic organization categorically said "Death is like a deep sleep"

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20140101/death-is-not-the-end/

Jozzy4:
Thank you, let me repeat this .... Sleep indicate a period of rest . Paul is not saying they won't die . The word sleep is not synonymous with death.

Death Is a criteria to enjoy the first Ressurection which 1Corinthians 15 is all about.

" Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection . Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6 NKJV)

To be a king and rule with Christ for the thousand years , they must experience a Ressurection. So when he says some won't sleep, he is not saying they won't die, but rather unlike those who spent long period in the grave. They would be Ressurection in the twinkling of an eye. No resting like others

Hence a sacred secret.



Here is the verse in full ...

1Thes 4:15-17

" According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

If you are correct, people should presently be going to heaven without dying, cos we are presently at the Lord's coming... Matthew 24 proves this. !!!

So why haven't people been caught into the air ? Or are you guys reading what's not there Into the verse


It's not what you think, hope you can see now?

amijid2012:
Good day all, please how legit is DREKRUTAS?

They are genuine just that they recruit on behalf of companies.

LordReed:
The type of evidence required here has been repeatedly defined, confirmation of the historicity of biblical figures and events. This includes archeological evidence, geological evidence, biological evidence, contemporary historic accounts, etc.

So you want to tell me that you haven't heard about Archaeological evidence of any Biblical figures?

This is pure dishonesty...

Geological evidence in what sense?

Biological evidence....they said Jesus resurrected and you're looking for His biological evidence....

There are contemporary accounts of Him

LordReed:
I am continually astounded by what I didn't know about this book called the Bible. The way I used to think about it was as if there was sufficient evidence at least for the historical veracity of the key figures. Guess what nobody ever showed me that evidence I just assumed it was there. I am sure many Christians likewise just assume the evidence is there but have never bother to actually look nor has anyone really presented them with evidence, they just believe.

It's so funny how you people will just be shouting show us evidence, without defining the type of evidence that is sufficient for you.

Maximus69:
Keep crying!

Shameless liar....
keep lying for your demonic organization

Maximus69:
Almost 9,000,000 and 8.6 million?

A liar doesn't have an iota of shame....

You said JWs are about 9million not ALMOST

You can even see how you reduce 8.7million to 8.6million in just one breath of a thread...to tell you how lies full your head.

Is that how fast people are leaving the evil hall?

Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia presently are trapped Sir!

Any opportunity to leave that country they will leave the next minute, no JW is happy when he's not allowed to go preaching and teaching!

Can you tell us what trapped them there?

Are there still kingdom hall in Russia?

Maximus69:
Bible has helped 8.7 million individuals from different races and tongues to become one global family of peace loving worshipers, yet it's this same message that led Russia to call us TERRORISTS!

I thought you said it's 9 million the other day, how come it has reduced to 8.7 million? Are you the one lying or watchtower again?


So Russia persecuting JWs, yet JWs are still in Russia and you were shouting the other day that the commandment Jesus gave was to FLEE.

So why are there still JWs in Russia despite the persecution?

Can you see your hypocrisy life outside now

Flakky26:
Experienced and professional Driver is urgently needed in a consulting firm located in Utako, Abuja.
send name,age,state, marital status,address to[b] 08108862632[/b]

1, He must have a good knowledge of Abuja
2, he must be calm and responsible.
3, He must have good communication and relational skills
4, he must be a good team player
5, he must have a valid driver license.

Please do you have idea about their pay?

Yoruba style of greetings is what Olodumare ordained for mankind....

Prostrate and knee-down for your elders.

With this you can't contact any disease....

Who is your elders? Anyone who is older than you!

happiness4ever:
I believe somebody made this up

No! It's every where already

Even a book written in 2009 "End of Days" by Sylvia Browne specifically mentioned 2020 for the outbreak of the virus!

Legalcriminal:
I pray there is solution before it get to Africa.

The moment it is discovered in Africa forget it Nigeria will be involved

It's already in Algeria

First case confirmed in Africa

See the way you cut out my point....I know you must employ a tactic to divert attention here....

Kindly go back and address my post.

Maximus69:
Your problem has escalated to what can't be solved!

Jesus said i'm sending you as sheep's into the midst of wolves, and you said it means the false prophets.

That is 100% correct!
But what about those been given false prophecies?
Aren't the false prophets prophesying to adherents?

My friend, we are saying the same thing here!

The false prophets will instigate their adherents to attack you while they hide behind the scene!

All those terrorists killing people in the name of religion were taught by some religious leaders (false prophets). So when Jesus said "i'm sending you into the midst of wolves", he is talking about those who will appear innocent to the public but in secret they're the ones promoting terror!

Provide the place where I said the @color part....failure to do so.....

You're known for false accusations, you repeated it here again.

Maximus69:
You called us hypocrites yet you're the one not having rest of mind when you see JWs make comments!

Your hypocrisy is high to heaven...
Just as you don't have rest of mind whenever you see any topic

You called us idol Worshipers yet you're the same person worrying your head due to the peace of idol Worshipers instead of going to look for people to preach to!

Answer my question and stop being silly to divert attention here....

Why will God who hates idolatry still goes ahead to anoint and declare Russell and other JWs Holy

How did you know Boxing is violent by even cited the scripture and your GB didn't know for football

Jesus and his followers only go to people who wants to learn from them, it's the Pharisees, Saddusees and Scribes that do come up against Jesus and his followers with antagonistic questions to stop them from preaching and teaching!

I'm still waiting for your answers...
Any attempt to boycott those questions and divert attention won't be allowed here.

If you kill yourself with cardiac arrest or high blood pressure your blood will be on your own head!

Just as your blood always rises anytime you see the truth.

Jehovah's Witnesses are about 9,000,000 in number globally today and we are conducting Bible study with over 18,000,000 people globally. So your antagonism is taking you nowhere Sir!

Glory be to God...at least the population has suddenly rose from 8million you claim last year.

But tell us why GB hasn't issue instruction to ban JWs from watching football since Jehovah hates it...

Why is it that only you know about what Jehovah hates and others including your GB didn't know

Maximus69:
Walahi Talahi this your animosity for the truth is getting out of hand!

See the person whose father is the devil claiming to know the truth....

Can light and darkness be in one place?

You said Jesus send his followers as sheep into the midst of wolves. OK i said it means wolves in sheep's clothing NOT fierce killers, you began arguing blindly again.

Imagine, instead for you to admit that you goof biggerly you want to twist the narrative again....

"You said it means wolves in sheep's clothing NOT fierce killers" Liars....misinterpreting the scriptures! Jesus already clarified who the wolves in sheep's clothing are they are FALSE PROLHETS and Jesus didn't send you to false prophets because the false prophets will only be judged by Jesus Himself.

Stop lying....

Now clarify what you mean about Jesus' statement, am i right for saying he is sending his followers as sheep into the midst of wolves in sheep's clothing or not? [/quite]

Liar....Jesus clarified in His statement who the wolves in sheep's clothing is they are false prophets like JWs who pretend to be sinless, peaceful and Godly but only to be scattering the sheep because they don't care for the sheep when wolves show up.


I even added John 10:11-13 to buttress my point yet you can still turn your blind eyes to it.

[quote]Jesus clarified his statement at Matthew 10:11-15

Liar....Jesus clarified who the wolves in sheep's clothing are..they are false prophets

Note the difference: The false prophets are the one COMING TO YOU like JWs are doing today while the true Christians were SENT TO THE MIDST OF WOLVES.

Any city that doesn't welcome his message, just shake off the dust of your feet and leave.
Now you're arguing blindly that Jehovah's Witnesses should stay in wartorn areas WHERE THERE IS NO PEACE!

Then I asked, what is kingdom Hall of Jehovah's witnesses still doing in a war torn area like Bornu state

Did you answer my question? So you're disobeying Christ!

Besides, this is when you go to a place to preach NOT WHEN YOU'RE AN INDIGEN OF THAT PLACE.

Had it been you answer my question from beginning you won't repeating your ignorance here again.

Jesus' followers are to go from house to house {Matthew 10:12-13} how could that be possible in a wartorn area?
Will you open your door to strangers while living in a wartorn zone?

Why has JWs not abandon war torn zone like Bornu state? You haven't answered this!

The truth of the matter is that you people have been taught the wrong thing all along and you're not ready to accept correction. Jesus' followers shouldn't stand in a public square shouting at passersby when what you're saying totally contradicts the beliefs of those accommodating you!

See coward who has been brainwashed to run always from sheep talking here...

All you need is approach them one by one to reach the heart of each one of them, by so doing lovers of peace will suffice. NOT when you just stand in their broadways condemning their beliefs openly without giving them the privilege to reason along with you.

If you ran away like cowards and the terrorists took over every places, will you have opportunity to approach anybody

Isn't the same terrorists you ran away from that will occupy everywhere

Cowards....just like I said earlier just that you're too blind to see all my points... "if everybody ran away like cowards JWs will you have neighbourhood to preach?"

For your information, when Jehovah's Witnesses go to places where you people have not annoyed the inhabitants with your troubles they listen and welcome us!

Imagine, see annoyed the inhabitants after they make peace with them and your demonic organization will later come to say their not Christian.

It's your unchristian approach towards the preaching work coupled with aggression that's causing the troubles!

No wonder the true Christians are in the deep villages ravaged by terrorists today and making peace with villagers with the word of hope from Christ and many turning to Christ why your evil organisation will chicken out and later come to cause confusion.

There is nothing different from your beliefs and theirs.
©Noisy prayers.
©All good people go to heaven.
©Bad people will be tormented forever inside burning fire.
©Long and repetition in prayers.
©God's friend have material things.
©Human effort can make life better.
©Festivities not found in scripture.
©Loud megaphone in religious centers.

This are the things that are giving you headaches no wonder....

There is practically no difference in your approach towards worship and their own, so what have you got to tell them? other than "my own God will roast you alive in fire if you don't subscribe to our religious beliefs"
Isn't that the same thing they're saying?

And you didn't torment anybody with "Jehovah will destroy you at Armageddon if you're not part of us"
Hypocrite!

Jehovah's Witnesses will visit them IN THEIR HOMES, greet them in the manner of their own local people and make proper introduction before presenting our message of PEACE. Matthew 10:11-13

You only visit after true Christians have stood by them through the time your cowards organisation ran away when they were been ravaged by the terrorists.

So if you're still in doubt that we are the true Christians, please continue with your religion and see if there can ever be PEACE with the approach of your cohorts, even amongst yourselves as in those claiming Christians THERE IS NO PEACE. Because you stand in public squares and buses to condemn the worship of your fellow who also claims to be a Christian, whereas you never approached him in private to discuss issues one on one in order to iron out your differences!

To think only JWs approach people to preach to them one on one is height of dishonesty I ever seen.

Just call Jehovah as your witness if you haven't been approached by any Christian to share bible with you in your life.

Maximus69:
You are not confused, yet as a Christian you want to sit down comfortably watching and hailing two persons hitting each other with fury, because of the money you pay to watch them do so!

Actually, I don't even watch football not to talk of Boxing.

But I joined this thread to expose your hypocrisy!

In other to defend your demonic organization, you have to come with "Those JWs watching football aren't spirit filled...blah blah " just because some JWs also watch football which is a violent sport and you must find way of making them sinless.

You even went further to defend GB for not issue any memo condemning football by saying "God will only punish what He condemned"

Which I asked you, how you yourself know God hates boxing when you already supported your claim with scripture and your GB didn't know?

The reason you're so confused is because if you're asked questions you won't attempt it but spew thrashes instead.

Well JWs have our own God and he totally differs from yours,so don't expect what we believe to be the same as yours. After all you said we are demonic, definitely you shouldn't expect a demonic organization to do things the way your HOLINESS will do!

This doesn't explain how an idol worshipper like Russell and other earlier JWs could be anointed and declared Holy by God who hates idolatry!

Hypocrite!