₦airaland Forum

ifeness: In a sense you are right,but why do you use the term "creator God"? When it is obvious the bible refered to a race of beings ( the term gods was used according to the writer of the book of genesis

@bolded;
Which version of the Bible are you using? I'm sure if you're using KJV, NIV, Aplifier e.t.c you will see in Genesis capital letter 'G' at the beginning of God's name and singular name 'God', not in lower case with plural form 'gods'.

So the God genesis is talking about is the Creator, omnipotent, omniscience, all purposeful God of everything and He's not part of the creation.

ifeness: In a sense you are right,but why do you use the term "creator God"? When it is obvious the bible refered to a race of beings ( the term gods was used according to the writer of the book of genesis

@bolded;
Which version of the Bible are you using? I'm sure if you're using KJV, NIV, Aplifier e.t.c you will see in Genesis capital letter 'G' at the beginning of God's name and singular name 'God', not in lower case with plural form 'gods'.

ooman: @bold
Seriously??
Ok, where in the bible can we find how many genes a dinosaur cell contains??

I can't do that for you, if truely you want to know get a Bible and begin to read It (not with carnal mind).

ooman: it is left to you to show how nature contains those 4

I left yesterday because you don't have a concrete fact to support your claim.

Firstly, for you to believe nature contains INFORMATION means you don't know what you stand as an atheist because EVOLUTION (which you rest your faith upon) only claim MATERIALS. So recent addtion of INFORMATION disprove the philosophies of materialism (atheist, humanist, evolutionist).

One more time let me expantiate, INFORMATION is nonmaterial, it manifest the works of materials i.e water cycle, nitrogen cycle, circulation air e.t.c (that's why they will continue in the way their information is being passed), So for something to missed or added in materials new information has to come in i.e when God created everything it was perfect not untill new information came in when the Lord God cursed the earth. For human to evolve from apelike new information has to be passed into the DNA, for fish to grow legs new information needs to be added into the DNA, for rain to stop falling new information needs to come i.e in the case of 'Elijah'

You keep saying information of nature it's within nature itself when nature happened by CHANCE.

See the first law of information according to UDI (Universal Definition of Information).
"First Law of Information (LI1)
Information cannot originate in statistical processes. (Chance plus time cannot create information no matter how many chances or how much time is available."
Let me put more light, this law simply states that 'If happen to have billions upon billions times and billions upon billions [b]CHANCE it can never generate information, and remember NATURE happened by CHANCE.

I hope my claim is clear "INFORMATION: Evidence of a Creator".

ooman: Guy you are a joker.

This information you shout about, are you reffering to living things or non living things?? are there information in non living things??

Anything that doestn't consist/or lack one of the four attributes of informations isn't an information either living or non living.

Four attributes of informations according to UDI
*code
*meaning
*expected action
*intended purpose.

ooman: If after typing those definitions with your own hand, you still ask your first question, then there is something mountainous wrong with you

Yes I asked the question and expantiate it how it against your presupposition (big b.ang & cosmos)

Duh?? Sorry but I only proved your god wrong. Evolution never said a complex being can pop into existence from nothing, that's your claim and you just agreed its impossible, helping me prove the existence of god wrong

Never I always claim from ages God is a spirit, might and all purposeful one. He created everything and He's not part of His creation. Using Bill Gate as an example is, he has an existing information (spirit) before he can generate those information.

Remember my one of my quote (though you ignore it) I said informations can be found inside an information. He's Almighty Gos, He knows how He does His thing.

You know I didn't support my prove with Bible but just let me quote this one so that you can have more ideas on how INFORMATION came into an existence.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created........

And God says "Let there be LIGHT.......
Let there be....and it was so.

See how informations is being generated!

ooman: because of constant composition, nature can actually speak !! Now sue me

I will expatiate later, dont have your time now.

You're the one who refers to the "law of constant composition" I don't need to sue you because you yourself know that your claims are wrong.

You want to browse internet again.

Waiting......

INFORMATION the third foundamental entity of nature, where does it come from?

All informations have a source/sender.

ooman: What does the above mean??

Use your brain sir

ooman: How do i know they replicate?? Pls, am not a secondary school dropout like you. No offense
Natural is autotelic. I told you that before

Thank God I'm not.
If nature is autotelic, why is it happened by chance? Because autotelic simply means "an event which have within itself to exist according to its own purpose"

If nature is autotelic according to you, disproves big b.ang & cosmos theories. It can't happen by chance it must has a purpose. I know you borrow that word from English it never exist in atheist realm of science.

And that makes him uncreated?? Like i said, because Bill Gate is not also part of a computer system means he popped into existence from nothing.

Yes, He's uncreated entity because He's an omnipresent, all powerful God.
Again you have proved evolution wrong (all man evolve from apelike). Bill Gate cannot popped out of nothing.

So you do not of the branch of science called informatics and you want to debate information with me?? Duh??[/qutoe]
The topic of this thread simply says "information:....." if I don't know anything about it why am I here then?

[quote]Says who that there is no converse?? says you?? Duh??!!!!

I've clearified myself about that.

Whats my business with your God, stop bringing him to debate with me.

Your headache business with Him is to disprove His existence in all ramification, that's why you keep parading on religion section everyday.

Mass and Energy and Information and part of an autotelic nature

The INFORMATIONS that contains in the formation of the universe came from where? because according "First Law of Information (LI1)
Information cannot originate in statistical processes. (Chance plus time cannot create information no matter how many chances or how much time is available. By UDI"

Whatever, softwares cannot create hardwares from themselves or nothing. Immaterial God cannot create material from himself or nothing.

For sure, but remember hardware cannot come to an existence without software first, and hardware cannot continue to perform its action without software.

Law of constant composition

See what law of constant composition mean "The law of constant composition is a chemistry law which states samples of a pure compound always contain the same elements in the same mass proportion."

How does it relate with your claim "spontaneous"?

According to you it means they replicate. Then see what your law stated "samples of a pure compound always contain the same elements in the same mass proportion." meaning they don't replicate.

Again does nature a PURE compound?

I know you get confuse about this thread that's why it took you so long to reply.

PhenomenonVFX: What is this dude talking about? Is ur desperate desire to ameliorate ur logical failings the reason why u are just making pointless propositions? That last bolded line was not well thought out by you. You were the one who opened a thread where u tried to throw pseudoscience in our faces (while trying to sound well informed on the methods of science and trying to seem logical) then when ur attempts were revealed for the logical flaws they are, u proceeded to start quoting from ur holy book; which didnt convince anyone here. Now that I have called u out for it, u decided to abandon the reason u opened the thread in the first place to go after the person who mocked u for it. And for all ur attempt "Don't just jump into a debate start from begining" was all u could say?

U are still yet to give any sensible case for ur stance anyway in case u have forgotten why u opened the thread in the first place.

Yes I open the thread, then @ your bolded it still shows in your post @redcolor. Apart from 'muskeeto' that I quote with verse where did I quote verse(s) according to #redcolor?
And I have also explained this in my previous post the reason why I quoted him, and you can see his respond.

What are my responses to ooman's fallacies, why can't he states those laws that supported his claim and the name of the scientist?

musKeeto: Throwing questions in the air, i see.. just like praying...

Yes, so that you can understand where I'm going. If you can't answer them just say yes, beside those questions needs a very simple answer YES or NO! But because truth is so far from atheist they will be twisting or prolonging matters.

musKeeto: Throwing questions in the air, i see.. just like praying...

Yes, so that you can understand where I'm going. If you can't answer them just say yes, beside those questions need simple answer YES or NO! But because truth is so far from atheist they will be twisting or prolonging matters.

striktlymi: This is so cute...I guess you did not quote anyone either?

#If you do not want to address anyone then don't quote anyone!

I quote 'mumumugu' to ask my questions base on my view you can see I gave another example, does it include quote too?
Can't you just understand my post?

I suppose quote 'ifeness' too but I believe a knowledgable read will understand what I put up there.

striktlymi: Hi Emusan,

It might interest you to know that the individual you addressed is not an Atheist...I understood the message he tried to convey...

Anyways, it seems you rather like the OP...what exactly do you like about it's content?

Is like you didn't understand my post, try to reread it.

By the way I didn't address anybody I simply ask questions. So if you can't answer my question simply allow someone that can answer it come rather than misleading yourself.

mumumugu: In summary, science is the forbidden fruit , say no to science. Say no to technology. Say no to internet ,say no to nairaland.

This type of statement always shows that atheist are very bias in their argument.

Answer these questions:
1. Do all Christians are born with Bible?
2. Do all scientists are atheist?
3. Do all atheist are scientist?
4. Do we have anything like creationist scientist?
5. What are the achievement of creationist scientists over the years & present age?

I have seen in some atheist post like "scientist provide medicines yet they claim science is wrong"

Nobody we ever claim science is not true (because it effects can be seen everyday) but as the OP claim we have science that are GOOD and BAD.

PhenomenonVFX: U must have me confused for an atheist. Anyway I am sure Muslims also think that their own sites speak the truth. And I enjoy an argument made with logical proofs. Not quoting from sites with initial bias and religious spin.

If I may ask, which argument have you provided with logical proof?
And if not for internet, where will you get your information or did you carry out the experiment yourself?

How many time did I quote Bible if not when I quoted 'muskeeto' and he understood my quote. You can see through his reply. Anyhow you put it I believe you know each background of every FAITH.

Don't just jump into a debate start from begining.

ooman: delusions. will get back at ya

Continue browsing I'm here waiting for you unless if there's nothing like information in the world of atheist scientists.

PhenomenonVFX: @OP: u have just been schooled. I am sure u are running around frantically searching for another christian blog to quote from.

Thanks anyway because life itself is a school.

So you want me to be searching atheist website which full of lies. Christian website will never curb anything just to provide the truth.
I was reading something on a christian site and a statement like this was there "Truly Bible didn't say this or that....., Bible didn't specific a date e.t.c, and any information they provide it's always with a universal laws and scientists names.

ooman: to nature. Nature is autotelic.

will reply your epistle above later

Use any grammar you like to describe nature. NATURE consists three foundamental entities mass, energy and information. Without these three entities nothing like nature.

About "immaterials cannot produce materials". Have you ever seen where a car is being produced without detailings or a house being built without architectural detail drawings, and before any drawing there must be a brief which contains the client thoughts or the producer thoughts.

I know you don't have enough evidence to support your claims and you know my claim is true.

ooman: am sorry but your previous reply is irritatingly and annoyingly ignorant. will decide if I should reply later

That's an excuse.

PhenomenonVFX: Someone challenged the existence of ur creator. And u are using a book that u believe that that creator inspired to try to prove the existence of the creator? And u expect that to be a sound argument? Good luck with that.

Get this, somebody asks you to prove whether your great grandparent were nice. All you can do is either you get their history or get a physical prove.
Firstly, if you get a physical prove i.e their DNA then you can compare it or their bones. But the question is you need information first where they were buried or someone that resemble them small in behaviors. If you get their bones, how sure are you that the one you got are your parents own. Unless information is being given to direct you where their grave was located. Then if you get the bone how can you discover their true habit/characters through the bones?

Secondly, you can get a documented of their handiwork or look for someone who so close to them during their life time on earth that can help you.

Which one will you prefer?

Bible is God's word which reveal the true identity of God to man, everything athiest scientists are looking for today is in the Bible.

ooman: yea, because Bill Gate is not part of windows OS therefore he popped into existence from nothing.

Nice logic

Nice logic indeed! But remember windows OS informations can be trace back to Bill Gate. So informations of nature can be trace back to who?

ooman: @fallacies
1. It is very wrong to use human language and computer language systems to define "information" in nature because human language cannot replicate itself, nature does.

where does nature information come from? How do you know they replicate? And, who is responsible for the replication? Because whenever there is information there must be a source.

2. If every information must be passed down, who passed down god?

God is never part of creation, He is the creator (He created both matter and information)

3. This same information scientists have discovered that meaningful patterns can arise spontaneously in nature which can be deciphered into meanings understandable to humans. Therefore, confirming that DNA can start as a simple pattern, which it did, since evolution means progression.

who are the scientists don't they have name? And, which law supported it? I hope you can find more explanation on that site laws and the name of the scientist.

4. If something material cannot create something immaterial (destroying evolution according to you) then something immaterial cannot also create material (destroying god concept). Since both logic destroys one another, we are left with nothing. So from your logic, nothing should exist, but nature exists. So which is true? Materialism (evolution) or immaterialism (creation).
To answer this we look into nature and what we observe is that there is actually nothing immaterial in nature.

The law is cleared and no reverse of such law. If at all you reversed it "Immaterials cannot produce material" yet you're wrong because there're immaterials entites in you that produce material. Remember God is the creator, He created both materials(matters) and immaterials(thought, spirit where informations are store). Looking at the nature one can conclude existence of mass & energy alone cannot complete the work so there must be the third foundamental entity(information)

Lemme start by using your analigy of software - Software (immaterial eg god, spirits etc) can only make softwares. Softwares CANNOT make hardwares, destroying creation of material world by spirits, god etc
BUT
Hardwares (material - mass and energy so evolution) eg processors, ic, etc are used to make softwares (immaterial information) and so DNA can evolve from mass and energy and it in fact did.

You're absolutely wrong here. Software needed at first instance to create hareware because out of your thinking is where information of manufacturing hareware came from. Both information and materials are needed to build hardware.

Therefore, creation was wrong and evolution is true.

Your side.

This also do suggest that an immaterial god, spirit CANNOT exist since software cannot exist without an hardware. So, if there is any single chance that god exist at all, he has to be made of material stuff or he does not exist.

Sure, that's why He's omnipotent information can be found inside information that's the mystery behind is power you can see this in resurrection of death i.e Jesus Christ

So information can and do come from materials

provide the law that support your claim.

Thoughts are only delusions of brain network which can be terminated when the brain networks are obstructed. In other words, you can only think intelligently when your brain functions right.
So, since thoughts are delusions and so is everything that exist within its vicinity - gods, spirits, miracles etc are all delusions too.

Thoughts are delusions! So atheist scientits don't think before they carry out a prove or evidence. Ooman come with another thing ooo

All this inferred from your logic. I will stop here for now.

absolutely, and it's true.

musKeeto: So @ooman get small sense

@ooman once I'm through with my work I will answer you, sorry for the late reply.

@muskeeto, You've finally change your signature. Thank God

Luke 1:37 says "For with God NOTHING shall be impossible". Meaning before NOTHING there's SOMETHING which is God and out of NOTHING everything in the universe came into an existence, and God is not part of the creation He is the creator.

ooman: Yes

Mr ooman, you always make me laugh including big b.ang, cosmos.

Anyway is not new to me anymore once you can say in one of your post that you're not an African later in your post you're claiming Nigerian even from Yoruba.

Hope you've gone through the website very well and what are the falacy in the post you want to point out?

ooman: See am just right, you are not that brilliant to compose that write up.

Anyway, when someone brilliant enough comes along, I will show you the fallacy in this copy and paste work of yours.

Yes very right. Do you want to tell me most of your post aren't copy and paste or you carried out the experiment yourself?

Waiting....

ooman: Oh, you forgot to give your source because I know you are not that brilliant to compose the write up.

Anyway what information is encoded in NaCl to begin with?

If you cannot answer, just ignore, dont waste my time.

Thanks, what if I include the source, will you border yourself to open it even if you open it your next repsond will be it's a Christian site.

Have you deleted google on your system?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/information-evidence-for-a-creator

The first law of thermodynamics makes it clear that mass and energy (matter) can neither be created nor destroyed. All mass and energy in the universe is being conserved (the total sum is constant). However, someone can write a new complicated formula on a white board and then erase the formula. This is a case of creating and destroying information.
Since the first law of thermodynamics states that mass and energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed, and information (UDI) can be created and destroyed, information (UDI) must be nonmaterial.
The genetic information system is the software of life and, like the symbols in a computer, is purely symbolic and independent of its environment. Of course, the genetic message, when expressed as a sequence of symbols, is nonmaterial but mustbe recorded in matter and energy.

If we apply these laws governing UDI to DNA information, we can make logically sound arguments (conclusions).
1. Since the DNA code of all life-forms is clearly within the UDI definition domain of information, we conclude there must be a sender (LI 1, 2).
2. Since the density and complexity of the DNA encoded information is billions of times greater than man’s present technology, we conclude the sender must be supremely intelligent (LI 2, plus corollaries).
3. Since the sender must have
*. encoded (stored) the information into the DNA molecules
*. constructed the molecular biomachines required for the encoding, decoding, and synthesizing processes
*. designed all the features for the original life-forms
we conclude the sender must be purposefuland supremely powerful (LM 1, plus corollary).
4. Since information is a nonmaterial fundamental entity and cannot originate from purely material quantities, we conclude the sender must have a nonmaterial component (Spirit). God is Spirit (FL1, 2; LI 2, plus corollaries)!
5. Since information is a nonmaterial fundamental entity and cannot originate from purely material quantities, and since information also originates from man, we conclude man’s nature must have a nonmaterial component (spirit). Man has a spirit (FL 1, 2; LI 2, plus corollaries)!
6. Since information is nonmaterial and the third fundamental entity, we conclude that the assumption “the universe is composed solely of mass and energy” is false (FL 1, 2).
The philosophy of materialism is false!
7. Since all theories of chemical and biological evolution require that information must originate solely from mass and energy alone (no sender), we conclude all theoriesof chemical and biological evolution are false

Read through before you place any comment don't just scan/skim through.

For Darwinian (molecules-to-man) evolution to actually work, new genetic information is required each step of the way. In order for a fish to grow legs, new information must be encoded into the DNA. For a reptile to grow feathers, new information must be encoded into the DNA. For an apelike creature to evolve into a human, new information must be encoded into the DNA. This new information must add to or replace old information with new instructions to grow legs, or feathers, or human characteristics. But what is information and where does it come from?

Foundation for materialism (atheism, humanism, evolution) is that the universe consists of only two entities "mass and energy". Therefore, if a third entity can be shown to exist, then materialism and all philosophies based on it must also be false. Information is this third fundamental entity.

What is information?
In July 2006, a team of scientists representing various scientific disciplines met to evaluate a definition of information proposed by information scientist Dr. Werner Gitt, which is precise and corresponds very well to human languages and machine languages. The team proposed that this definition be called Universal Definition of Information (UDI) and agreed that there are four essential attributes that define it:
1. Code (syntax): Information within all communications systems contains a code. A code contains a set of symbols and rules for using letters, words, phrases, or symbols to represent something else. One reason for coding is to enable communication. Examples of codes would be the English alphabet, words, and syntax; hieroglyphics; or codes used in computers (for example, C,Fortran, or Cobol).

2. Meaning (semantics): Meaning enables communication by representing real objects or concepts with specific symbols, words, or phrases. For example, the word chair is not the physical chair but represents it. Likewise, the name “Bob” is not the physical person but represents the real person. When words are associated with real objects or concepts, it gives the word meaning.
For example, aichr and Bbo do not have meaning because they do not represent any real object or concept. However, if in the future one of these character strings were to represent a real object or concept, it would have meaning. Prior to the computer Internet age, the word blog had no meaning; today it is associated with a web page that serves as a personal log (derived from web log ) of thoughts or activities.

3. Expected Action (pragmatics): Expected action conveys an implicit or explicit request or command to perform a given task. For example, in the statement, “Go to the grocery store and buy some chocolate chips,” the expected action is that someonewill go to the store. This does not mean the action will actually happen, but it is expected to happen.

4. Intended Purpose (apobetics): Intended purpose is the anticipated goal that can be achieved by the performance of the expected action(s). For example, in the statement, “Go to the grocery store and buy some chocolate chips,” the intended purpose might be to bake and eat chocolate chip cookies.

These four essential attributes specify the definition domain for information. A definition of information (Universal Definitionof Information) was formulated by using these four attributes..

Scientific laws are precise statements formulated from discoveries made through observations and experiments that have been repeatedly verified and never contradicted. There are scientific laws about matter (Newton’s law of gravity, laws of thermodynamics, laws of electricity, and laws of magnetism). There is Pasteur’s law about life (law of biogenesis). Each of these laws is universal with no known exceptions. Scientific evidence that supports or refutes a scientific concept determines its level of certainty.
Fundamental Law 1 (FL1)
A purely material entity, such as physicochemical processes, cannot create a nonmaterial entity. (Something material cannot create something nonmaterial.)
Physical entities include mass and energy (matter). Examples of something that is not material (nonmaterial entity) include thought, spirit, and volition (will).

Fundamental Law 2 (FL2)
Information is a nonmaterial fundamental entity and not a property of matter.
The information recorded on a CD is nonmaterial. If you weigh a modern blank CD, fill it with information, and weigh it again, the two weights will be the same. Likewise, erasing the information on the CD has no effect on the weight.

I found this website which I thought it would benefit you and I on how to give a concise answers to many questions. Question like;

*Did Humans Really Evolve from Apelike Creatures?
*Does the Bible Say Anything about Astronomy?
*Does the Big Bang Fit with the Bible?
*Where Did the Idea of “Millions of Years” Come From?
*What’s Wrong with Progressive Creation?
*Is the Intelligent Design Movement Christian?
*Can Creationists Be “Real” Scientists?
*How Should a Christian Respond to “Gay Marriage”?
*Did People Like Adam and Noah Really Live Over 900 Years of Age?

Over 30 questions of such could be found in this book called "The new answers book 2".

Believe me alot of justice has been done on these questions just read them with utmost part of your mind, christians will never curb anything just to provide an evidence.

After you have gone through it come and give your comment here. This thread isn't for arguement please, and it may take you almost a week to complete the whole book never mind and please never ignore any chapter.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2.

Click on this link after it has opened scroll down and you will see "Table of Content" then begin to read.

ooman: God is a person not a thing. If he exist, he wont be so elusive to find.

LOL you're a little bit confuse here because some of your past post read "the fact is God doesn't exist"