₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: Don't be a nescient. Those processes that started in the days of Noah's Flood were not visible when Noah received His commission. If Noah had doubted God what do you think would have been his fate by now?

"the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (2 Peter 3:6).

Hi OLAADEGBU,

How are your days being and hope you receive my PM?
Take care!

Emusan

ooman: Creationists thoughts differ from that of evolutionists. You think 93% of scientists at NAS that are evolutionists actually base their career on something baseless?

we have proof for spontaneous formation of dna, but because we haven't made life yet, you and your kind have the upper hand here. Enjoy it, till we make life, then you will gnash your teeth.

Why won't it differ? See childish talk. But remember we have the same planet, universe, sun, water earth e.t.c which stand as evidence/proof for everybody.

Is it not Miller and Urey experiment? Mixture of (L-amino & R-amino) while every living things use only L-amino. Produce LIFE until thy kingdom come.

See don't derail this thread. This thread is purely on INFORMATION (immaterials) in nature which prove materialism wrong that nature doesn't contain only matters.

Another thread is coming about LIFE wait till then and grab your copy.

Kay 17: I expressly told you Mathematics/Mathematical truths have NO cause or creators, yet you ask me about a founder?!! Puzzling.

I try to protect your ignorant you seems adamant. If mathematics/Mathematical truths have no cause or creator according to you and it's true about nature then you gave more meaning to this thread by asking these questions,
*how come it exist an information? So it comply with the four attributes of UDI.
*And how come evolutionist says nature contians only matters? because if math has no cause or creator and can't be seen it must surely be immaterials.

As I said earlier, if mathematical truths determine the relationship and nature btw space, time, etc; how is it possible for such truths to be human inventions. If 1+1 = 2 is a human invention, then I can reinvent 1+1 to mean 23!

Go ahead to manipulate it and let's see how you can prove it.

The independence is glaring. Your UDI definition ought to be in the gutter.

I'm not sure you're a science student, how can you say a Universal law is invalid by mouth or because you're opportune to hold a keypad without proven it wrong first! You need to do some check up.

ooman: Those whom you quoted are creationists and they do the world no good.

I know that's what you will end up with.

Afterall I can support my claims with something. Who says you shoudn't quote atheist? My greatest concern is just support your claims with universal scientific laws.

Remember, in the beginning you requested for a source and I reply you, and said you will say it's a Christian site. Can you see now?

-

ooman: whatever information you think is in the dna was never written by anyone.

I repeat , for you to believe information is in nature prove atheism wrong!

coding dna has being shown by experiments that it can spontaneously form.

Dr. Werner Gitt & Dr. Lee Spetner says "Not even one mutation has been observed that adds a little information to the genome. This surely shows that there are not the millions upon millions of potential mutations the theory [evolution] demands."

Two biologist have once said: "DNA is an information code. . . . The overwhelming conclusion is that information does not and cannot arise spontaneously by mechanistic processes. Intelligence is a necessity in the origin of any informational code, including the genetic code, no matter how much time is given."

For your own good, anytime you want to present a logical view always support it with name(s)/law(s) of scientist. If not don't even border to comment.

Kay 17: You never asked me to define mathematics, rather you asked for an example which I gave you.

Read page 4, I know you're always carried away whenever you're reading.

The big error you are making obviously out of ignorance is believing mathematics is a human invention. It is similar to believing Reason is man made.

Where your own ignorance now pass my own is when you believe mathematisc fall from heaven.

Mathematics is abstract language of the Universe. That alone removes it from simply being an invention of man. Math dwells on the characters of space, quantity, structure and even time. The signs + - = are mere axiomatic symbols.

This particular portion of your post really shows that you're not a science student.
@bold-Math is what true about nature that no man can change. Axiomatic symbol by who? You started this with 'Mathematical truth' which I made a comment base on mathematics but you said you're talking about 'Mathematical truth'. Now you base your explanation on mathematic but let me agree with you.

You said 'it is abstract language', i said 'it is independent of experiment' what is the different between them? because I include 'human thought' can human do without thinking? I got the defination from Robbert Tubbs who wrote "mathematics concept and its origin". Is there anything in this universe that doesn't have origin?

And as I always said they are unalterable by man, you can't change + to minus (while expecting that to function as an addition) and expect a different result.

Please leave this atheist life an seek for wisdom is affecting you negatively. Anything that goes up must surely comes down. It's an abstract language in universe but who define it or can you change it? Whether you like it or not the +, -, 1, 2, 3 e.t.c are human symbols to carry out intended purpose. I will ask you again, who are the founder of mathematics?

Your information definition is bad and insufficient! I love yvonne is definitely information, yet it isn't covered in the definition.

I have made it cleared that all my claims about information are from UDI (Universal Defination of Information).

If you like continue using the word to deceive the girl, I don't care! once it's outside or lack one of the four atttributes of information, is not an information by UDI.

wirinet: You above quote is funny. I said pick up a book to see the proofs and evidences provided. I did not say pick up a book and believe unsubstanciated docrines. You are allowed to reject proofs presented and present an alternative theory, and if your thery correlate with observations better than existing theorem, you will become famous.

You too pick up a Bible and you will see evidence of God existence.
You think you're the only one reading science textbook/christians are born with Bible.

Your lack of basic scientific knowledge coupled with pre-programmed religious indoctrination is hampering your understanding of how the universe works.
Your above definition of information only applies to information technology(IT), it cannot be applied to fundamental science. On the most basic level information is energy, a pattern than can be produced first, tranfered from one point in space to another or through one medium to another then interpteted to achieve a desired result. First a pattern is formed, it might be a sequence of molecules or 1 and 0s. an energy source is responsible for the arrangement of patterns, then the pattern must be transported from its source to another medium or space. From the new medium the message must be demodulated and interpreted and then used in a way to achieve desired results. without the intetpreter the information is just random pattern that is useless.

who I am to define information, according to "Universal Defination of Information (UDI)" is my source. If not because you've been deluded with your atheism you won't say information is aplicable on IT only.
Laws of information was formulated in 2006, by many informational scientists for both human code and machine language lead by Dr. Werner Gitt. They gave four attributes for information which are: code, Meaning, expected action, and Intended purpose. And anything outside or lack one of these attributes isn't information.
Prior to the discovary of DNA code in living things, atheist, humanist, and evolutionist have made us to understand that nature contains only matters (mass/energy). This DNA code has found its way complied with the four attributes of information, make scientists believe that all living things carry informations in their DNA.
Let me just quote some laws of information though there're many.
*All informations can be trace back to an intelligent source/sender.
*Materials can not generate immaterials.
*Informations can not be generate in statistical processes (No amount of time given and CHANCE available that can generate a meaningful information). All these laws are from UDI.
Let's ask oueself these questions.
*human DNA carries a meaningful information, according to first UDI law quoted above "all information can be trace back to an intelligent source, Which intelligrnt source/sender can will trace DNA information back to?
*Nature contains matters only according to materialism, but secong law says materials can't produce immaterials. How come information is in nature?
*atheist said nature happened by CHANCE, third law said no amount of time given and chance available that can generate informations, Nature can't happen by chance!

There are no three entities anywhere, the universe consists primarily of energy and the interractions of harmonics, quanta, packets of this energy.

I cite an example above. Information doesn't depend on energy to exist.

how can information exist without an energy source, even with your basic IT definition, you need an energy source to create, install and decode the software.

Mind you information comes before anything (you think to act not that you act before you think). Thoughts & Will are product of information they are immaterials.

Are you sure you know what you are arguing about? DNA does not contain code similar to the humam code, DNA is the code itself (pattern of molecules), that is the blueprint for the human and all of life itself.

It's you that didn't know what you're arguing about. Browse DNA codes are similar to human codes that's why it contains four attributes of information.

ooman: just one question...
can the motherboard of a computer self-replicated?

I'm talking about design you're talking about replication.

But the semiconductor inside each transistor do bahave like cells in our body.

Once again DNA is not information it contains information. DNA contains code's that has a Meaning to carry out expected action to meet up intended purpose.

By the way I'm not talking about replication I'm talking about the information that DNA carries which has been comfirmed to be found within the four attributes of Universal Defination of Information ( UDI).

Who wrote those information? If you can't answer the question never bother to comment and I will close the thread.

ooman: olodo, but you are the claiming immaterial exist as information and that is what i subscribed to.
dna as information (immaterial) exist, in a sense, but it remains material and was not sent.

You're my boss nah!

Yes I claim it which is true according to UDI.

@bold- who is olodo now? DNA contains information read more about DNA before coming here and spit nonsense.
DNA as information (immaterials) in a sense, but it remains materials by you. So all these days of my explanation about information you can still spit this rubish, I'm highly disappointed in you.

Does DNA code similar to human's code?

Looking at a Motherboard of computer system, can it happen by chance?
Can window7 OS happens by chance?
And you will dicsover that all these has intelligence source 'human'.

Talkless of a human system that contains complex DNA code with large biochemical molecules to decode each code.

Kay 17: Mr Emusan

1. Whatever you have been saying

2. 1+1 = 2 2+2=4

OR maybe you should make a better and more coherent argument.

What is your problem? You main mention about 'mathematical truth' which I asked you to define but you couldn't provide a senesible explanation. Let me orientate you how 'mathematical truth' derives its name. "Mathematics-can be refers to as "human thought" that is independent of experiment". Meaning someone don't need to put it into experimental condition before it proves true, is called 'mathematical truth'.

Example: an object and another object are more than a object. But for you to express it in a clear and understandable way you must include human code.

1 is a figure generated by human
+ is a sign generated by human
= is a sign generated by human

All of these are human code to express HUMAN thought.
Remeber, thoughts are immaterials
Get wisdom Mr. Kay

Kay 17: ^^
You have faulty premises which I have disagreed to.

Give example

Mathematical truths have NO origins or causes.

What do you mean by mathematical truth? And give example.

I never agreed with your definition for information

I don't have defination for information everything I said about information is from UDI

I never accepted the resulting conclusion (immaterial begats immaterial)

Then you don't know anything about information by the way what do you understand by SOFTWARE?

Thus ultimately I don't agree that information leads us to a Creator

Do more research about information.

wirinet: Please pick up a book on quantum mechanics or better still google particles colliders experiments. These theories were not formulated, they are actually the results of experiments.

You said I should pick a book, when you were told God exist you request for an evidence they gave you Bible you said Bible is a myths Greek's book yet you want me to adhere to your own prove through a BOOK.

Please define information. what do you understand by information.
information is simply a pattern of energy that is transferable from one point to another or from one medium to another.

Information can be define as a Code(syntax) that has a Meaning for Expected Action to carry out Intended purpose. And these four keys words are the attributes of information. If anything lack one or found outside these four attributes in not regard as information.
@bold- Purely lie! Information is more than patterns but a complex and meaningful code generated from intelligent source i.e software, you can see how complex, meaningful, and tidious the codes are and arrange in orders.

All you three fundamental entities of nature are all energy. Einstein had already proven close to a century ago that E =MC2. I hope you know what that implies; that mass and energy is interchangeable.

First of all, for you to agree that nature consists three entities disprove your believe (atheism) because atheist believe nature compose only matters(mass/energy).

"Information can stand or exist without energy". Example; your computer.
Hardware (mass)
Software(information/spirit)
Battery(energy), so if you remove the battery it doesn't have effect on the software i.e erase the software.

The DNA is simply a pattern of molecules that allows self replication. The same energy that allows the sand dune to arrange its patterns is the same energy that allows the molecules to arrange itself into the unique DNA pattern.

Go and read more about DNA it contains code similar to human's code. So DNA is information.

Kay 17: ^^
If there was no time: no before or after and the Universe wasn't created, then there wouldn't be a time or a Universe.

Stop your nonsense cowardness to deviate from the very point of this thread. Answer my question and if you can't provide answer to it then stop bringing another topic here.

The topic is "information: evidence of a creator".
My question is "DNA information was written by who?" since materials can't generate immaterials as nature comprises only matters as atheist do claim.

ooman: Both

Are you kiding me?
But atheist do claim only Matters (mass/energy).

Ooman, see your life outside.

hisblud: hehe true, i wish he could just say the laws are false, showing evidence and i guess its difficult. Ooman let me give you a little hint, when clinton was president, some scientist hoped they were in the process of decoding the information in dna. Fast forward 10years, they are still at zero. So tell me, is dna just info or it contains information that Someone put there and they have not decoded it?

@bold- Likewise me too! I just allow them to be saying their rubish because no scientist ever prove INFORMATION wrong.

99:9% nairaland atheist/freethinker as they called themselves are INTERNET and TEXTBOOK atheist/freethinker yet they'll be ranting nonsense.

hisblud: is nature immaterial or material?

The guy doesn't know what he's saying.

hisblud: is nature immaterial or material?

The guy doesn't know what is saying.

Kay 17: In the absence of time, how does this higher intelligence operate?

Stop proving nosense here, go and read your Bible Job 14:1-end you will see when Job said "Even time is not HIDDEN from Him (God)".

Answer my question at the top.

ooman: laws of human information do not apply to dna then!

Will you park yourself aside?

When they formulate the four attributes of information do they limit it to human's alone? If it is another person now you'll have used all sort of childish words to qualify the person. You're just twisting yourself thinking you're smart. Anything outside or lack one of the attributes isn't an information.

yea, who put the information in higher intelligent

Another way of prolonging matter!
Whether you like it or not nature comes into an existence through one means not two means. Either it happen by chance or it was created. Which way you based your believe it must be a claim and what support your claim.

If I may ask at the point of singularity that nature was formed, who put the point there?

nature itself is information.

You can see how deluded you are! Why materialism didn't discover it on set? Again information is a spirit in nature and you don't believe in spirit. I know you don't have a concrete fact. You're just palying smart.

@wiegraf I'm sorry I didn't reply your post.

In summary of my OP.

Over the years naturalism/materialism (which atheist, humanist, evolutionist derived their stand) made us to understand that nature consists only matters (mass/energy). Now information has been confirmed in nature i.e DNA with the laws of information make it clear that this information found in all living DNA is not as a result of evolvement or by chance (meaning these informations must have been passed by immaterials thing because materials cannot produce immaterials "according to laws of INFORMATION". The question now is "according to the law of information, materials cannot produce immaterials and nature consists only matters. Then, who wrote DNA information?

In Genesis 2:7 says "And the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground (matters, but nothing happen), and He breath a breath of life (information, then something happen) into his nostrils, and the man became a living soul (everything in his system begin to function)". Why can't you accept this simple logic of formation of human rather than "apelike without any logical reasoning".

I have explain myself enough about INFORMATION an its four attributes. The answer I want now without twisting or prolonging issue is "DNA information was written by who?"

Kay 17: LmAOo!! This is sad! So its your sincere belief that mathematics is what people agree about like languages? Unfortunately that's ignorant.

I have asked you before but let me ask you again Does mathematics has a founder?

Mathematical truths are abstracts which are not agreed over nor created by anyone. They are immutable structures which the Universe itself is grew on. All human societies independently from one another, have had elaborate understanding of mathematics.
Information is likewise uncreated, how do you create a triangle eh? If you can create information, then you should be able to add as many sides or angles to a triangle as one wants, and it wld remain a triangle. Unfortunately it doesn't.

See you! Wisdom is good ooo

I believe you know gravity it's nature force. Is it nature that provide the law of gravity?

What I'm saying in short is before 1,2,3, A,B,C, shapes being used some people have sat down an agreed on it. Chlorine is a gas in nature but is it nature that give it the name?

You spirit argument is shallow and inconsistent. [b]Naturalism and Materialism do not argue against information, nor immaterial (Reason) or Cognition. It just your misconceived notions on Materialism.

@bold- did I say they disagree? But they (naturalism/materialism) made us to know and agree over the years that nature consists only matters (mass/energy) which atheism, humanism, evolutionism based their believe. Where do you put your brain whenever you're reading.

Karl Marx said "I exist therefore I think" which simply places Materialism as the prerequisite foundation for even the immaterial to setup.

You skip laws of information try and reread it.

ooman: of course information is immaterial. And all immaterial stuff we know of come from materials, therefore, god does not exist or he is made of matter.

THERE CANT BE INFORMATION WITHOUT SENDER, SINCE INFORMATION IS IMMATERIAL AND GOS IS ALSO IMMATERIAL, THERE CANT BE A GOD WITHOUT ITS CREATOR/SENDER TOO.

What does this have to do with wrong laws of information?

Go back to the OP/post and read the message about materials and immaterials/about the question wiegraf asked "who pass God information".

dna doesnt "have" information, it is information!

I put it to you, what is information?

your laws are laughable because rather than prove evolution wrong, they prove that god cannot exist. You just added another point to my already full pot of reasons why god cannot exist.

But you believe there's information in nature.

@ooman
Now that it has been proved to you scientifical that there's a creator who made heaven and earth try to amend your ways. He's 'able and just' to accept you back no matter what you have done. Isaiah 1:18 says "come now, and let us reason together (God is calling you & I), saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool forget about caustic words you have used against Him, He's ready to forgive you. 1 John 1:8-9 says "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and truth isn't in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrightousness.

There's no much time again decide now and be save, I know you're once a Christian but never mind He will accept you.

Hebrew 9:27 says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement"

End time is around, I pray the Lord God will give us grace no to miss it in Jesus name. God loves you and I love you too. Join the gosple to move God's work forward. God bless you!

ooman: what nothing did i 'agree'?

You agree that information is immaterials, then there's nothing like atheist because atheist don't believe in spirit.

well, your laws of information are wrong then
that is if your brain is immaterial, then you are right.

Who an I to give law (I'm not yet reach that level huh) for information. I know you've serached and browsed the internet very well if the laws of information I quoted are wrong, you would have quoted me wrong. Do your brain doesn't contain DNA?

normally, yes
in dna, no

Logical ooman! You like prolonging issue sha.. Why no in DNA?
Or do you mean DNA doesn't have information?

When you said you're coming back to this thread I thought you're coming to proof all the quoted laws wrong but I don't know you're with no tangible fact.

ooman: agree.

Again for you to agree nothing like atheist.

whatever information you think exist in nature in only a product matter,

Where did you put your brain when you're reading laws of information that says "purely materials can't generate information" now you're saying it's a product of matter

just like thoughts are products of the brain

Ooman! Thoughts are product of information because they're immaterials together with 'will'.

ooman: ^^^how exactly does dna CONTAIN information?
dna is information itself

Anyhow you put it. For you to believe DNA is information itself make me conclude you don't know your stand as atheist and you know the nitty-gritty of the point because that's why you run away from "Information: evidence for a creator" thread.

[quote author=wirinet]

In a quantum vacuum, virtual particles are being created and disappears again. matter and antimatter appears into existence in a vacuum and can come together again producing nothing.

Why won't it disappear, because you know if they ask for the evidence you will claim it has disappeared again.

IN THE BEGINNING WAS ENERGY, ALL THERE IS ENERGY AND ALL THERE EVER BE WOULD BE IS ENERGY.

Is a lie, universe contains INFORMATION which doesn't depend on ENERGY.
These are the three major foundamental entities that make up nature:
1) Mass (Physical)
2) Energy (Force)
3) Information (Spirit)

Nature doesn't contain only matters (mass and energy) as atheist do claim.

DNA are all different expressions of the same energy

DNA contains informations go and read more about DNA code.

Stop preaching false message.

ooman: never said that

Then what is your claim and the laws that supported it?

Afterall scientist can't do without law!

wiegraf: I don't actually have time, but it seems you're still talking, inexplicably

You're back from searching & browsing the internet, you're welcome.

Why are you using 'caustic' words? Again, do we look like imbe.ciles?

Well, If you say so.

What you yourself have been saying is that SOFTWARE and SPIRIT are the same thing, only difference being the source (and perhaps complexity, but that is even arguable). But they are..again...the same.gadamn.thing. Your words.
Are they or are they not made of the same thing, abstractions/concepts/inforwhargarbl? SOFTWARE is SPIRIT too, just like you claim consciousness to be SPIRIT as well, SOFTWARE is just less complex. See? SOFTWARE is like a baby SPIRIT in your parlance. Consciousness[/] is daddy SPIRIT.

You need to leave this atheism and ask God for wisdom. Very simple explanation yet is difficult for you to digest. I won't repeat myself again because a 5years old baby can understand what I put up there.

But just let me say this, software & DNA code are both information and I have explained why SOFTWARE is called SOFTWARE and DNA code is called SPIRIT above.

Where did I use the word 'consciousness' in my post? Consciousness is an atheist word keep it to yourself.

Where do you get this drivel from? Ah, xtian sites.

Where do you get your own presupposition atheist site.

Again, so, which intelligence wrote the first information? Which intelligent information was responsible for the first intelligent information?

Without being sentimental, take a walk around the street and begin to ask people this question [b]"How the nature came into being"

I'm very sure you will get some response like 1) it happened by chance 2) God created it 3) somebody laid it e.t.c meaning it must surely attach to something, and I have explained individuals claim and what support their claims.

There's another thread floating around atm about complexity and patterns in nature evolving.

Information is not about complexity and patterns, INFORMATION is about meaningful code that's why anything outside its(information) four attributes is not regard as an information.

You do not require an intelligence for anything. Simple can form complex, and indeed does so all around us in nature. Do you have a clue now?

Have you read about Intelligent Design? even though they didn't attached it to a creator so there's something intelligence about nature not just patterns.

Oh boy na wa... What flavor of whargarbl is this? Keep it short please, time....

It hurt right?

Proffdada: They've been inspirational for me to draw closer to God

Likewise me too.
Please anytime you're talking about scientist always seperate them because we've creation scientist they believe in God and Bible, also other sicentists who didn't believe in God and Bible.

Proffdada: 1+1+1=1 boolean logic

Don't mind the guy.

Use information as your key point anytime you meet with an atheist. Thank.