₦airaland Forum

1supremo: If this is ATHEISM, then I wonder what AGNOSTICISM posits.

It depends on who you ask, but I consider anyone who openly doubts the existence of god to be an atheist. Merriam Webster defines an agnostic as " a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable".

Its really just hair splitting though. The important thing isn't what you believe, but how you arrived at it. If you believe what you believe because of childhood indoctrination, or because a man in a funny hat/turban told you, or because you read it in an old book, then you are religious. If you believe what you believe because it makes the most sense based on the information available to you without respect to fairytales and cultural myths, then you are a freethinker.

And because there isn't any credible evidence that god(s) actually exist, freethinkers are invariably atheists.

tpia@:
logicboy

let him answer the question himself unless another thing dey una matter.

There are violent people in all communities. But only religious people engage in religiously motivated violence. We atheists don't do it for the same reason that virgins don't get pregnant.

Keep deceiving yourself that religious violence is not a problem if you like. Keep telling yourself that its only the Muslims and that your fellow Christians don't also do that stuff.

In any case, violence is not the only thing an atheist has to fear from religious people. There's harassment, discrimination, threats, pestering with tracts, pestering with religious books, pestering with unwanted invitations to church, and of course, the dreaded "I just need 2 minutes of your time to talk to you about Jesus" speech.

I remember back when I was going round for job interviews, they would always find sneaky ways of asking about your religious beliefs. They'd justify it by claiming they were looking for someone "god fearing". In my last interview, they outrightly asked me what church I went to. Of course I lied and told them I went to soandso baptist church. When they later called to offer me the job, I politely asked them to stick it up their rectum.

Gaddem bigots!

tpia@:
logicboy

let him answer the question himself unless another thing dey una matter.

There are violent people in all communities. But only religious people engage in religiously motivated violence. We atheists don't do it for the same reason that virgins don't get pregnant.

Keep deceiving yourself that religious violence is not a problem if you like. Keep telling yourself that its only the Muslims and that yourfellow Christians don'tdo that stuff.

In any case, violence is not the only thing an atheist has to fear from religious people. There's harassment, discrimination, threats, pestering with tracts, pestering with religious books, pestering with unwanted invitations to church, and of course, the dreaded "I just need 2 minutes of your time to talk to you about Jesus" speech.

Kageyoshi-san is correct. We should try to tone down on the insults. Nairaland has become too hostile a place because of them. I realize that it's often the religious people that start it, but that make it any less bad when we do it. Remember Confucius' golden rule: don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you.

On the other hand, some insults are just unavoidable. People post a lot of rétarded stuff on Nairaland and when I see some of it I have no choice but to call it out. You have to weigh the risk of hurting someone's feelings against the chance that some fragile mind might read the rétarded post and accept it as truth. And a scary number of Nairaland posts have unacceptably high levels of rètardation, especially in the religion section.

Sometimes, you just have to say something. There could be children reading. Think of the children!

1supremo: ... and you should realise that an absolute rejection of The Absolute is a self-defeating argument.

Nobody is absolutely rejecting anything. You can't absolutely disprove god any more than you can disprove father christmas. All atheists are saying is that there is no credible evidence that god or gods exist and there is no convincing philosophical argument that they exist. If some evidence were to appear (e.g. if god were to poke his bearded face though the clouds and say hi) then most of us would just accept that we were wrong and reevaluate our theories based on the new information.

Science is not a competition or a zero sum game. All we want is to uncover the truth.There are no winners or losers. When Einstein and co debunked centuries worth of Newtonian physics, the scientific world rejoiced. But that didn't make Newton's contributions any less valid.

Its only religious people that compete among themselves and struggle to make their dogmas win over those of others.

@OP
First of all, you shouldn't be learning science from TV shows. TV is almost always dumbed down for mass consumption. That means the science gets changed in subtle, but important ways.that make it inaccurate.

Secondly, the standard unit of time is the second. Measuring time in years is stúpid because the length of a year is not constant. The revolution of the earth has been gradually slowing down since the earth was formed. That means this year will be slightly longer than last year, and a lot longer than one 4 billion years ago. The same thing applies to days. We only use them because of tradition and because the rate of change is very small relative to the length of a human lifetime. But on an astronomical scale, measuring time in years is seriously rétarded.

Before you can start poking holes in any scientific theory, you need to first.clarify all your definitions like what is a year, how long is a day and so on.

And if you want to learn real physics, you need to start reading books. Forget all this TV documentary nonsense.

ijigbamigb: Please House. Rescue My life.
Can a PS3 lens ever be replaced. My console reads movies but not games. I dismantled it and cleaned the lens yet it won't read games...this problem has been on for a while now.
Thanks.

It sounds like the BluRay drive is failing. Have you tried BD movies or just DVDs?

If it's the BluRay drive, it may not be fixable. You'll have to send it back to Sony for repairs or buy a new one. Remember that Sony always updates to the latest firmware after repairs so you'll lose access to all your pirated games. Or you could try your luck with the Alaba repairers who are just as likely finally destroy your PS, steal parts and void your warranty.

Sorry.

Pastor Kun: Bros since you want to labour the issue, can you give me examples of christians resorting to violence in modern times to defend their faith.

So you're giving me assignment now abi? Are you really trying to claim that there are no violent fanatics in all of Christendom?

Good luck with that.

Pastor Kun: Bros since you want to labour the issue, can you give me examples of christians resorting to violence in modern times to defend their faith.

So you're giving me assignment now abi? Are you really trying to claim that there are no violent fanatics in all of Christendom?

Good lick with that.

CrazyMan: Ok...thanks for telling us your state of origin and LGA.

There won't be need for any proof, because we all know that - that's where you come from.

Thanks once again.

Are you actually making fun of yourself? Because to assume (incorrectly) that I'm from Osun state is exactly the kind of irrational logical leap you religious people are known for.

That would be like me thinking you're from Judea because you believe their creation myth.

tpia@:
you meant to say.

I meant to say exactly what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

I was warning Logicboy about the many Christian and Muslim fanatics who are willing to do violence to defend their faith. You and I know there are plenty of such people around.

And don't even bother with the No True Scotsman argument like Pastor Kun above. To do so would be to insult your own intelligence.

A guy had meningitis, which by the way is basically a brain infection. He had some funny dreams while in a coma, woke up and decided to write a book about them. And you guys accept this as proof that there heaven exists? Seriously?!?

So if I were to write a book about the malaria dream I had last month, you people would buy it and start threads on Nairaland claiming that it was incontrovertible proof of heaven? And I just so happen to be a surgeon too. That means my malaria dream book is much more credible than if it had been written by some random person who who isn't a doctor.

God made $tupid people so that guys like Dr. Eben Alexander could sell books to them and get rich. (Just joking, there is no god. $tupid people, please don't be offended.)

Are you planning to "come out of the closet" with your real identity? Because that would be pretty dangerous for an atheist in Nigeria.

Some of these Christians and Muslims are stone cold killers.

How it could all come about without the need for any creator to produce it. The way living things change, adapt and diversify is truly amazing to comprehend. The reality of natural selection is far more awe-inspiring than the lame religious stories that we keep using to deceive ourselves.

Life is a beautiful thing.

That Adam and Eve story is a lie from the mouth of Esu. Everybody knows that mankind originated from Ile-Ife in Osun State. Anybody who says otherwise is just deceiving himself.

And don't ask me for proof. If you don't believe it already, then it can never make sense to you. You have to have faith!

Sorry about the weird duplication above. The "Insert Flash" button seems to have disappeared.

The video is still watchable though.

I just stumbled on this YouTube video where American comedian Bill Maher tears down the "Atheism is a Religion" argument the way the way I've never been able to.

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ORpiAc1f_A?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ORpiAc1f_A?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Comments please. [font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font]

^^^ Actually the best way to transfer large games like Gran Turismo 5 is to use the PS3 File Splitter app to break the large files into smaller ones which you then copy to your FAT32 external hard drive. You then plug the hard drive into your PS3 and use Multiman to move it to your internal HDD and automatically merge the split files.

You can't pull out your PS3 internal hard drive and copy directly to it because it uses a proprietary file system that Windows PCs can't read. Plus the PS3 encrypts the internal HDD by default so you can't even move the HDD from one PS3 to another without formating it.

http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/File-Management/PS3Splitter.shtml

Wearing a veil is insulting and throwing feaces isn't? You religious people are amazing!!! Bunch of sh1t slinging monkeys.

And BTW, when did they award muslims the copyright on veils? Did they do like Apple Computer and patent it after someone else invented it? Because contrary to what many ignorant muslims posters have implied above, the veil did not originate with muslims and does not belong to them. The ancient Assyrians for one, had laws enforcing the veil 2000 years before the koran was written. Ancient greek women wore veils, so did jewish women. Christian nuns have been wearing the veil since at least the 4th century AD, long before islam.

Hell, the book of genesis talks about Judah's daughter in law veiling herself and pretending to be a pr0stitute in order to have sex with him. Even though that story is almost certainly not historical, it is clear evidence that pr0stitutes wore the veil in ancient Judea.

Lady Gaga should carry on jo.

Paris_Love: With the decaying morals in the society this days, it's not a bad idea. Nobody is forcing anybody to read the pamphlets or join the prayer session.

As for atheist pamphlets unless atheism is a religion there's no need to preach it to kids

And the jihad book, it's a no no. It could turn the kids into one of these ↓↓↓

Someone should start paying primary school kids to distribute Guru Mahraji tracts in school. Lets see you like that. I don't know why its so hard for you religious people to see things from other's perspective. why is it okay to use kids to distribute materials from your religion and not from others?

And what the hell does religion have to do with morality? Religious people have no special claim to morality. Religious people are not more moral than anybody else. The fact that they claim to be is irrelevant, Repeat a lie a thousand times and it won't become the truth. Someone like you who can't even understand why exploiting kids is wrong has no business talking about morality.

^^^^Its amazing how you're able to rationalize this stuff. Don't you have any doubts at all? Don't you have that nagging suspicion that Smith and co were just using their positions to get laid with as many women as possible? What happened to your natural skepticism? Or do you think it's right to unquestioningly obey and accept whatever the church teaches no matter how ridiculous it may seem on the surface?

TheMadame: @ Mr Evil Brain,
Thank you, you are too kind. What do you think about Mr Yemi Solas post above yours?

He's dead wrong. People tend to have selective memory when trying to explain difficult issues like god's sudden change of character in the new testament.

Thw bible clearly states several times that God is immutable and unchanging. It also states that he is all knowing and omnipotent so there is no reason why he should have to modify his behavior for any reason. He knew he was going to send Jesus while he was ordering the cold-blooded slaughter of Amalekite civilians. He was already "the merciful god" when he was killing the Egyptian children. Omnipotence means he could easily have found a more humane way of achieving whatever aims he had in mind. The fact that he chose not to is very telling. Immutability also means that god is just as prone to anger, cruelty and psychopathy now as he was in the old testament. He hasn't changed because he doesn't change.

Christians nowadays like to cherry-pick the parts of the bible that allow them to paint a rosy picture of god. They are willfully blind to all the inconsistencies, contradictions and absurdities inherent in their beliefs. That is why modern the modern version of Christianity makes little or no sense.

The story of Marcion of Sinope shows that early Christians at least tried to apply common sense to explain some of the inconsistencies in the bible. Back then, many believers weren't willing to turn off their brains and just accept whatever they were spoonfed from on high. Nowadays, when you ask too many questions people start warning you that "it's not good to be too smart" and you should "just believe". They now deliberately promote stúpidity as a virtue.

Its very annoying and very sad.

Pastor Kun: I hear the LDS encourages polygamy, on what scriptural or even rational basis do they justify this practise?

The main body of Mormons no longer practice polygamy, though they did in the past.

The practice was started by their founder Joseph Smith who is reported to have had between 42 and 48 wives. Smith however married them in secret and publicly denied being a polygamist to his grave. The church started practicing "plural marriage" publicly in 1852 and Smith's successor Brigham Young had 51 wives, while other church leaders had over 60.

This obviously had serious consequences for the Mormon community. The church elders were basically reduced to a bunch of lecherous old men who abused their position to bed as many women as possible. Any attractive, young Mormon girl was immediately put under heavy pressure to marry one apostle or the other. Many women were coerced or deceived into entering such marriages. Underage girls were regularly married to old men. And the church elders were regularly getting "revelations" from god about how so and so's fine daughter was their "spiritual wife". In addition, the practice led to a serious shortage of women meaning that young men and boys couldn't find wives and and were often driven out of the community by the elders in order to reduce competition.

Eventually, due to widespread public revulsion, the US federal government started cracking down on the practice, criminalizing it, jailing many church members and driving them underground. The Mormons who until then had been in total control of the government of the state of Utah began to lose those political power because many of their leaders were in jail, and those outside were afraid to practice openly.

The Mormons however refused to abandon the practice until the federal government threatened to essentially invade Utah and seize all their temples if they didn't stop breaking the law. At that point, the then church president, Willford Woodruff received a revelation that god had changed his mind and was now totally against polygamy. And that was how the church was saved.

Nowadays, only some fringe fundamentalist Mormon sects still practice polygamy. The main LDS church regularly excommunicates all members who do. But just like racism, they haven't repudiated the practice, they still revere polygamist former leaders like Smith and Young, and they have left the door open to practicing it again in the future.

[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_polygamy[/url]

TheMadame: @Mr Evil Brain,
Sir,Thank you for pasting the Marcion theory to the thread,I appreciate,however I am new to this internet business,so could you please explain to a novice like me how to cut and paste articles from other sources to Nairaland.
Your help will be hioghly appreciated and thank you in advance.

1. Highlight the text you want to copy with your mouse.
2. Press Control + C
3. Move the cursor to where you want to paste the text.
4. Press Control + V

You can also do it by right-clicking and selecting first cut, then paste from the menu. Don't worry, computers aren't difficult to use. Keep experimenting and you'll eventually figure it out.

^^^^ Done

Marcion of Sinope
Marcion of Sinope (Greek: Μαρκίων [1] Σινώπης), (c.85 – c.160) was a bishop in early Christianity. [2] His theology, which rejected the deity described in the Jewish Scriptures as inferior or subjugated to the God proclaimed in the Christian gospel , was denounced by the Church Fathers and he was excommunicated. His rejection of many books contemporarily considered scripture prompted the church to develop a canon of scriptures .
Life
Hippolytus records that Marcion was the son of the bishop of Sinope, in Pontus. His near-contemporaries Rhodon and Tertullian described him as a wealthy ship owner, [3] and he is said to have made a donation of 200,000 sesterces to the church. Marcion probably was consecrated a bishop, likely an assistant or suffragan of his father at Sinope. [3] Conflicts with the bishops of Rome arose and he was eventually excommunicated by the Church of Rome, his donation being returned to him. After his excommunication, he returned to Asia Minor where he continued to lead his many church congregations and teach the Christian gospel in its Marcionite or Pauline version.
In 394, Epiphanius claimed that after beginnings as an ascetic , Marcion seduced a virgin and was accordingly excommunicated by his father, prompting him to leave his home town. [4] This account has been doubted by many scholars, who consider it "malicious gossip". More recently, Bart D. Ehrman suggests that this "seduction of a virgin" was a metaphor for his corruption of the Christian Church, with the Church portrayed as the undefiled virgin. [5]
Teachings
Main article: Marcionism
Study of the Jewish Scriptures , along with received writings circulating in the nascent Church, led Marcion to conclude that many of the teachings of Jesus were incompatible with the actions of the god of the Old Testament , Yahweh . Marcion responded by developing a dualist system of belief around the year 144. [6] This dual-god notion allowed Marcion to reconcile supposed contradictions between Old Covenant theology and the Gospel message proclaimed by Jesus .
Marcion affirmed Jesus to be the saviour sent by the Heavenly Father , and Paul as his chief apostle. In contrast to the nascent Christian church, Marcion declared that Christianity was distinct from and in opposition to Judaism . Marcion did not claim that the Jewish Scriptures were false. Instead, Marcion asserted that they were to be read in an absolutely
literal manner, thereby developing an understanding that YHWH was not the same god spoken of by Jesus. For example, Marcion argued that the Genesis account of YHWH walking through the Garden of Eden asking where Adam was proved YHWH inhabited a physical body and was without universal knowledge ( omniscience ), attributes wholly incompatible
with the Heavenly Father professed by Jesus.
According to Marcion, the god of the Old Testament, whom he called the Demiurge , the creator of the material universe , is a jealous tribal deity of the Jews , whose law represents legalistic reciprocal justice and who punishes mankind for its sins through suffering and death. Contrastingly, the god that Jesus professed is an altogether different being, a universal
god of compassion and love who looks upon humanity with benevolence and mercy. Marcion held Jesus to be the son of the Heavenly Father but understood the incarnation in a docetic manner, i.e. that Jesus' body was only an imitation of a material body. Marcion held that Jesus paid the debt of sin that humanity owed via his crucifixion, thus absolving humanity and allowing it to inherit eternal life. [7]
Marcion was the first to propose a New Testament canon. His canon consisted of only eleven books grouped into two sections: the Evangelikon, being a version of the Gospel of Luke ,[8] and the Apostolikon , a selection of ten epistles of Paul the Apostle, whom Marcion considered the correct interpreter and transmitter of Jesus' teachings. Neither section
included elements relating to Jesus' childhood, Judaism, and material challenging Marcion's dualism. Marcion also
produced his Antitheses contrasting the Demiurge of the Old Testament with the Heavenly Father of the New Testament.
Marcion and Gnosticism
Marcion is sometimes described as a Gnostic philosopher. In some essential respects, Marcion proposed ideas which
would have aligned well with Gnostic thought. Like the Gnostics, he argued that Jesus was essentially a divine spirit
appearing to men in the shape of a human form, and not someone in a true physical body. [7]
However, Marcionism conceptualizes God in a way which cannot be reconciled with broader Gnostic thought. For
Gnostics, every human being is born with a small piece of God's soul lodged within his/her spirit (akin to the notion of a
'Divine Spark'). [7] God is thus intimately connected to and part of His creation. [7] Salvation lies in turning away from the
physical world (which Gnostics regard as an illusion) and embracing the God-like qualities within yourself. [7] Marcion,
by contrast, held that the Heavenly Father (the father of Jesus Christ) was an utterly alien god; he had no part in making
the world, nor any connection with it. Out of mercy, he intervened in the world to save humanity. [7]
Legacy
In 144, Marcion became one of the first declared heresiarchs for his deviations from the theological viewpoints of the
main body of bishops. The suppression of the Marcionist form of Christianity is thus viewed [9] as a catalyst for the
development of the New Testament canon , the establishment of a centralised church law, and the structuring of the
Church, which remained a relatively unchallenged mainstay in Christendom until the Protestant Reformation.
The church that Marcion founded had expanded throughout the known world within his lifetime, and was a serious rival
to the orthodox Christian church. Its adherents were strong enough in their convictions that the Marcionite church
retained its expansive power for more than a century. It survived Christian controversy, and imperial disapproval, for
several centuries more. [10]
Marcion was the first Christian leader to propose and delineate a Biblical canon (a list of officially sanctioned religious
works). In so doing, he established a particular way of viewing religious texts that persists in Christian thought today.
After Marcion, Christians began to divide texts into those that aligned well with the "measuring stick" (Greek kanōn
literally means "measuring stick" of accepted theological thought, and those that should be rejected. This essential
bifurcation played a major role in finalising the structure and contents of the collection of works now called the New
Testament .

[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope[/url]
[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism[/url]

I'm not sure about the other guy's but the ordination of Elijah Abel was declared null and void in 1908 by Joseph F Smith. Brigham Young declared that a black man marrying a white woman was a sin engrave that it could only be stoned for by "cutting off his head and spilling his blood on the ground".

The prophets, elders and church presidents gave various reasons for refusing to baptize blacks. These included but were not limited to:
- Black people were the cursed descendants of various biblical figures including Cain (Joseph Smith himself was quoted to have said this) and Canaan.
- Black people were not intelligent enough to receive the priesthood.
- Black people lacked the moral integrity required to join the priesthood.
- Black people had refused to side with God against Satan when they were fighting during pre-existence and were thus cursed.

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that blacks were "an inferior race" and that our black skin was "emblematic of eternal darkness". Before 1978, an elderly black man who had spent his entire life devoted to the Mormon faith had less standing in the church than any random 12 year old white boy. The only criteria for this was race, not deeds, not moral fibre, not standing within the community, just race. No black man could earn the priesthood, no black man could hold an office.

And like I said earlier, the church has never repudiated any of this meaning that it's still the official church belief that you belong to an inferior race. The only thing that has changed is that they now allow you to join the priesthood. How nice of them.

Look, I don't expect that anything I have written here can convince you to change your religion. I don't even think you have to since everybody has the right to believe whatever crazy stuff they want. I just hope you keep in mind the recent history of the people you are fraternizing with. Whenever you're with any of the older Mormons (basically anyone 50 or above), remember that they they were all adults at the time when their church was actively discriminating against black people and it didn't bother them enough to make them leave.

You seem to be convinced that they have all changed. I hope you're right. And if not, I hope you don't find out in a nasty way.

I'm not sure about the other guy's but the ordination of Elijah Abel was declared null and void in 1908 by Joseph F Smith. Brigham Young declared that a black man marrying a white woman was a sin engrave that it could only be stoned for by "cutting off his head and spilling his blood on the ground".

The prophets, elders and church presidents gave various reasons for refusing to baptize blacks. These included but were not limited to:
- Black people were the cursed descendants of various biblical figures including Cain (Joseph Smith himself was quoted to have said this) and Canaan.
- Black people were not intelligent enough to receive the priesthood.
- Black people lacked the moral integrity required to join the priesthood.
- Black people had refused to side with God against Satan when the two of them were fighting during pre-existence and were thus cursed.

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that blacks were "an inferior race" and that our black skin was "emblematic of eternal darkness". Before 1978, an elderly black man who had spent his entire life devoted to the Mormon faith, had less standings the church than any random 12 year old white boy. The only criteria for this was race, not deeds, not moral bible, not standing within the community, just race. No black man could earn the priesthood, no black man could hold an office.

And like I said earlier, the church has never repudiated any of this meaning that it's still the official church belief that you belong to an inferior race. The only thing that has changed is that they now allow you to join the priesthood. How nice of them.

Look, I don't expect that anything I have written here can convince you to change your religion. I don't even think you have to since everybody has the right to believe whatever crazy stuff they want. I just hope you keep in mind the recent history of the people you are fraternities with. Whenever you're with any of the older Mormons (basically anyone 50 or above), remember that they they were all adults at the time when their church was actively discriminating against black people and it didn't bother them enough to make them leave.

You seem to be convinced that they have all changed. I hope you're right. And if not, I hope you don't find out in a nasty way.

@OP

Are you aware that the LDS church was explicitly rascist until as late as 1978? They believe that black people are inferior descendants of Cain and are "cursed by blood". Blacks were not allowed to be baptised into the priesthood, something that all male mormons above age 13 are entitled to. In fact, if you had a single black ancestor, no matter how far back, you couldn't be baptized, essentially making you a second-class Mormon.

This wasn't just an informal practice, it was official church policy as enacted by their prophet Brigham Young. The federal government had to essentially kick the LDS church out of Nigeria back in the 60s over their rascist behaviour.

They only stopped in 1978 when god apparently "changed his mind about the negro issue" (their words). Note that they have never apologized for their past behavior, or even repudiated it. They expect us to believe that they were simply obeying god who was a rascist back then, but isn't any more.

I've always thought that it would take a superhuman amount of credulity for a black person to believe in mormonism. I don't know how you do it.

www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/curseofcain_part3.htm

There was an early Christian bishop called Marcion of Sinope who was born around 85 A.D. about 50 years after the crucifixion supposedly took place. Back then, the basic Christian dogma and most of the beliefs we take for granted nowadays hadn't been defined yet. Most Christians back then didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, the new testament hadn't been compiled yet, and many of the books had probably not even been written.

Anyway, Marcion studied the old testament and noticed that the behavior of Yahweh, the god of Israel didn't really match the heavenly father that Jesus spoke of. Jesus's heavenly father seemed to be a kind, merciful god who wanted to save mankind and wasn't too concerned with enforcing strict laws. On the other hand, the god of the old testament was a despotic, cruel, mass-murdering dictator who didn't hesitate to punish or kill people for breaking the tiniest rules even if they did it with good intentions. The old testament god was also partial to the Jews and extremely mean to everyone else. Marcion also wondered how evil came into the world? If god was all good, why did he create the devil and allow him to mess up the world? How could a good tree produce bad fruit?

He eventually decided that the old testament god wasn't the same one as the heavenly father that Jesus prayed to. His theory was that even though Yahweh created the world he was at least partly evil and cruel. The heavenly father who is a more powerful god eventually took pity on mankind and decided to rescue us (including those being tortured in hell). He decided to send Jesus to save mankind, but Yahweh's supporters tried to stop this by killing him. Unfortunately, their plan backfired because Jesus's death was the price needed to ransom man from Yahweh's clutches. Note that Marcion didn't reject the old testament, he just said we should read it with the understanding that the god in it wasn't the same one Christians were now worshippping

Marcion's theory is interesting in that it solves the "problem of evil" quite neatly. Unfortunately, the early church leaders didn't take kindly to it and they soon kicked the guy out of the church and declared him a heretic. His later on formed his own parallel church which eventually grew large enough to become orthodox Christianity's major rival for more than 2 centuries. Marcionism only died out then the orthodox Christianity became Rome's state religion and they started harassing and killing those they called "heretics".

If emperor Constantine had chosen another religion, Christianity could have been completely different today.

[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope[/url]

^^^^ Has it occurred to you that the atheists and freethinkers are the ones with knowledge? What can anyone possibly say to justify the brutal killing of 42 children? Some things are morally ambiguous, but I think.we can all agree that the mass slaughter of children is clearly wrong.

I love threads like this. It's funny to see Nairaland Christians try to defend any of their god's many episodes of psychopathy. Killing 42 "little children" is okay because they weren't really that small, and he must have warned them many times, and Elisha was traumatized from watching his BFF Elijah fly up to heaven.

Luckiw, things are much more clear-cut for we atheists. Killing small children is wrong, end of story! No buts, no ifs, ands or maybes.

"Religion is one big Rorschach test". That's exactly what I've been trying to explain to you born-agains for so long. People basically just see what they want to see in it. That's why American evangelicals behave and vote way they do. Religion to them is not so much a guide on how to behave as a justification for it.

And the same applies to practically all the deeply religious people I've ever met. That's why some Muslims see Islam as a religion of peace while others find reasons in it to blow other people up. It's the same religion, but often totally different depending on character of the person practicing it.

The article is spot on.