₦airaland Forum

Ibime:
Ezeagu,

Lest we forget, Jaja was deported for not allowing the Europeans up the Imo river. Not only did the Ibani and Opobo prevent the uplanders from travelling down to the coast, they also prevented the Europeans from travelling up to the hinterland at least until the Berlin conference and the deportation of Jaja.

Up the Bonny river same applies where the Uplanders do not go past Okrika who themselves are not allowed to go directly to the Europeans and must submit goods to Bonny.

Up the Niger, no one can pass through Akassa to the coast. Notable exception being Onitsha who the Europeans were able to travel directly to until they burnt Onitsha down after a dispute.

This is pure historical fact which can be disputed with a single counter example.

Aboh merchants controlled much of the trade in European goods from the coast, as well as dominating local trade. They also brought slaves, palm oil, ivory, and produce to the coast.
. . . .
The Aboh traded slaves for cowry shells, guns, beads, cloth, and liquor from Europe.

http://books.google.com/books?id=H26pO3vwmHoC&pg=PA53

experience:
I mean the boundaries outside separating us from other nations. Looks okay to me with perhaps some Bonny/Opobo  inclusions.

Ibime:
As for those claiming that Igbo failure to trade directly with Europeans was noit down to military insistence by Ibani, Kalabari and Nembe, consider the case of the Ibeno Ibibio who allowed the Europeans to open a factory on their land. After Jaja pillaged their land and hung 100 Ibeno heads in Opobo, they discovered the military significance of breaking the Opobo stronghold on direct trade. There is another anecdote about military reprisal to another group up the Imo river which I cannot recall immediately.

As for EzeUche, he is the only one with mouth to talk about military might because the the Ibani often use Aro priests to make Igbo clans chop long juju and swear to trade only with the Ibani

Onlytruth:
Did you read my posts  at all before you typed?
Where did I say that Igbo must fight?

Didn't I say that diplomacy is the best tool? Didn't I say that the minorities are free to go form their own tiny nations?

Do you just like jumping into things without reading up first? A true slowpoke.

PhysicsQED:
The first modification you can make is with regard to the inclusion of Warri and Ughelli in Biafra. That would never pass.

PhysicsQED:
Actually, the myth (and it certainly is a myth) has not at all been quashed. A quick sampling of posts by EzeUche22 and Onlytruth would only reinforce it. Although I have no problem with them as individuals, and they both seem like competent people, they, like yourself, and possibly even Ojukwu himself (if the purported dialogue of a conversation of Ojukwu's about the possible 'incorporation' of the Midwest into Biafra, as mentioned in John de St. Jorre's book about the Nigerian civil war is legitimate), do not seem to have even the slightest comprehension of what the feelings of Nigerian minorities with no cultural ties to Igbos are towards a possible incorporation into Biafra.

I can assure you all that no matter how good a proposal Biafran supporters think they would be able to offer, it would be vigorously opposed by every vocal and/or educated member of those societies, whether Urhobo, Isoko, Itsekiri, or whatever, not with "diplomatic' or 'formal" negotiation needing to take place, but by a mass repulsion amongst commoners and elites to the idea of going from being a minority in a state fought over by three "unneeded" groups who at least have no say over their local activities and who comprise a country which is seen as a sort of amalgam (even if a bad one) of Africans from a particular geographical area (a mere "geographical expression" to being a minority in a state run (governed) by another ethnicity and associated with it more than it could ever be with their own, which would always make the dominant group (Igbos) the "other," and prevent the possibility of any shared feeling of ownership of a country. The obvious reaction, especially those from areas invaded during the civil war by Biafrans , could never be acceptance, but instead they would each vie for individual independence for their groups, to create a bunch of Equatorial Guineas or Singapores, or form a federation of former minorities, using oil money to become a bunch of Omans or Dubais.

You may never even have thought in these terms but the near equality of population between the three major groups in the West, East, and North (I know the North as whole is supposedly bigger than the whole south, but I'm just talking about Yorubas, Igbos, and Hausa-Fulanis only) essentially means that in theory, no single group can rule the country. (If the middle belt was not under "core northern" sway (that is, if southern politicians bothered to try and appeal to them), the Hausa-Fulani would not always be ruling Nigeria today.)

This means that no person can actually say that Nigeria as a country "belongs" more to a Yoruba or Igbo than to an Isoko or Itsekiri. In a possible Biafra, if 75% or more of the population is Igbo, and as a result almost every major decision is carried out by an Igbo, will the minorities in that state feel that it is an Igbo country, or that there is actually something like a Biafran nationality to which their ethnic identity is a part of? The tricky part here is that merely reassuring them that that is the case would not make it so; in fact, every association of Biafran success with Igbo efforts or ability, however innocently stated, would chafe at their sense of Biafraness/Biafranity.  Unlike in Nigeria, where sensible people see Igbos as Nigerians first, and Igbos second, minorities with no shared cultural ties or history with Igbos would see Igbos as the "other" group, to be opposed or overcome.


Onlytruth actually thought at one point that "Edo state proper" could be in Biafra. Which is evidence of sheer cluelessness of the perspectives of others.

He, and others, should know, Urhobos and Itsekiris did not even want to be part of the proposed EDOWA (Edo + Warri) state, and Edos did not want it either, even though these three groups have more ties than some other groups in Nigeria that share states. And some people think they will want to join Biafra, made up of people whom they share very few ties with?

You might not even know this, but after Biafra, even some Kanuris (descendants of the Kanem-Borno empire) wanted to join forces with their brothers in Chad and resurrect the defunct state rather than being dominated by the larger Hausa-Fulani in Nigeria. Needless to say, they were shut down.

What you and him and others need to understand is that without this colonial amalgamation called Nigeria, no group really "needs" any other group or feels it does, nor would any group feel that it was not capable of being on its own when the amalgamation ceased.

The political trend, since before Isaac Boro is towards ethnic autonomy (just think of the proposed Anioma state), which you should actually welcome, as a Biafran, but it might mean that Biafra really might really be Igbo only- which also shouldn't be a problem, since the minorities definitely don't need Igbos and Igbos definitely don't really need the minorities, even if they would be deprived of sea and oil (which many countries function better than Nigeria without).

PhysicsQED:
Unlike in Nigeria, where sensible people see Igbos as Nigerians first, and Igbos second, minorities with no shared cultural ties or history with Igbos would see Igbos as the "other" group, to be opposed or overcome.

experience:
Nations you mean (rotational headship remember).

Any maps/lists of provinces with towns yet?

Also any reps of the Ibibio, Efik, Andoni (sp?), Izon, Ogoni etc to also give their provincial arrangements?

The best description is here (needs some serious revision by the discussions on this thread so far). It should give us a framework to modify.

http://www./biaframap2004.jpg

EzeUche22:
I see lects as destroying progress. That is why I enjoy reading about what Qin Shi Huang (China's First Emperor) did in creating a standard lect for the Chinese languages which had thousands of lects into one single lect which can be found through Mandarin. The lect in which 85% of the Chinese people speak.

Getting rid of lects should be our first thing should I do

experience:
Those are semantics really. Scousers (north england) feel a tad ill treated within the nation and thus the slogan 'we are not English, we are Scousers', they rally round any true local who makes it nationally or internationally (beatles week just concluded), they have a very distinct accent and nearly a mini culture of their own. I could go on and on especially with this group of people, but despite this Steven Gerrard is still a bonafide member of the national team. People from Liverpool could work in Manchester and London without being put on a 'special list' seeking to redress the wealth disparity (as you mentioned) with the southerner. I believe the ramifications are like raw evidence showing that nationality (even if not 100% but at least 80%) has taken root. In order words a northern Englishman has to try exceedingly hard to come up with excuses that show he is marginalized.

EzeUche22:
Maybe we Igbos should be more focused on creating our own script using the Nsibidi but adding more symbols to it.

Also, getting rid of unnecessary lects and making every Igbo speak general Igbo. What angers me most is when Igbos speak in their lect so other Igbos present would have a hard time understanding what they are saying. The Northern Igbo clans are notorious for this.

asha 80:
Ermm so which one is the written japanese we always see or is it different dialects _{i dey see as those signs look the same to me}    

experience:
Agree with the first additions as parts of the conditions for nationhood. I was alluding to the ramifications however.

As for the classifications; lets take the French. When contesting elections, as long as the candidate is French, his origin (Paris, Lyon, etc) does not put him at a disadvantage; he is accepted as French. Same with the English.

When the Frenchman from Paris is applying for a job in anywhere in France, he is considered equal with those even from the surrounding location of the job. A Parisian can get a job as VC in Lyon university and the sky won't fall.

The borders of Paris would be sorted overnight if discrepancies arise; let Italy try their luck with claiming some corn fields in France, 

Obviously as the Frenchman differs from the Englishman in culture, language etc  hence different constitutions, all agreement have to satisfy both parties; no shotgun weddings etc

Etc

Do we have this ideals as Ndigbo first or do we need more 'breakdown' to achieve this nationhood/clan-hood?

Bingo dialect
- Fukuyama dialect

Izu dialect. . .

Owari dialect

experience:
Firstly, let us consider the ramification of nationhood*:
- Being able to participate in any organization without origin bearing any relevance
  i.e. a Frenchman can work in all of France without the need for affirmative action'.
- Being able to be from the specific area of birth and not necessarily paternal migration.
  Manchester born parent give birth to children in Liverpool; the children are from Liverpool.
- Being able to run for any governmental position without exclamation emanating from place of origin.
  very obvious,
- Ability to have a defence (army) with a COMMON cause
- Total allegiance to a constitution and to no other interests
- Have DEFINITE geographical boundaries
- Ability to grant citizenship and assimilate and people 100% or there about. etc

experience:
Firstly, let us consider the ramification of nationhood*:
- Being able to participate in any organization without origin bearing any relevance
 i.e. a Frenchman can work in all of France without the need for affirmative action'.
- Being able to be from the specific area of birth and not necessarily paternal migration.
 Manchester born parent give birth to children in Liverpool; the children are from Liverpool.
- Being able to run for any governmental position without exclamation emanating from place of origin.
 very obvious,
- Ability to have a defence (army) with a COMMON cause
- Total allegiance to a constitution and to no other interests
- Have DEFINITE geographical boundaries
- Ability to grant citizenship and assimilate and people 100% or there about. etc

There are tiers of society that are necessary to form and meet the ramifications of this nationhood* and not simply a geographical point on a map. I would use myself as an example of the tiers that would be relevant to me and some Ndigbo in the present day Nigeria .

 Nigeria
    |
  South
    |                                      
 Southeast   Niger delta   Niger delta   Midwest
    |                     |                  |                    |
 Anambra     Midwest       South South     Edo
    |                     |                  |                    |  
   Igbo            Delta            Rivers             Igbo
                          |                  |
                      Igbo             Igbo

Compare this to a man from Birmingham or a man from Paris.

 Europe   Europe
   |            |
 Britian    France
   |
 English

EzeUche22:
To answer your question. Yes! We will fight them on our push to the coast if we need to do so. They can try to defeat us but in the end, Alaigbo will not be landlocked. We will force them back to tiny Bayelsa if we need to do so. Do you think they can defeat just one Igbo clan, let alone a whole Igbo nation? I would like to see them try.

My rhetoric may not be as polished as some of the other Igbo posters, but diplomacy is over. They need to recognize their Igbo roots, we just want that coastal land. I could care less what they claim. Having a coast line can improve trade with other nations for an Igbo nation. Access to the sea is a MUST and it is non-negotiable. Any act of preventing the Ndi Igbo from reaching this dream is a declaration of war.

Onlytruth:
I don't know exactly what your point is here, though I suspect you are against some Eastern arrangement.

Like I've said before, the British kept accurate records of how the Eastern region was before colonization. For instance, that is part of why we had Eastern region, while even the western Igbos were grouped into western Nigeria. It does not mean that they are not Igbo. It simply means that they were in "stable" relationship with the Edo and other tribes in midwest. The same applied to all the tribes in the east before oil became a major issue.
That is why you don't see Delta and Edo Igbos arguing over land and border issues with the Edo.

Notice that the issue of land has been with the Ijaw most of the time. Someone noted that earlier. If the Ijaw are at stable relationships with other tribes, there will not be this topic to discuss. They went out of their way to undermine Igbo-led causes from Adaka Boro to Edwin Clarke. That is why we are having this conversation.

Of course the future Biafra could very well include all tribes up to Edo state proper! I don't see why not.
So, let's get that part straight.

The main issue here is that Igbo will not have a landlocked country (contrary to your claims) if ever they go alone. The history of the lands in question and current settlement pattern makes a strong case for that.

chyz:
Agbor is Delta State. Are you refereing to Igbanke? Also apart from the many edo words what are the other words? Im not arguing the influence of edo on Ika but the line is clear even so to the point that  Anioma state has already been Shaped. I was not hard to do because it was clear what is edo and ika or Igbo as a whole. Now this cannot happen with Okrika because the ethnicity is too intertwined most of them speak igbo as well as kalabari, the land has been bastardized as far as the rightful claim to land according to history. Igbos claim rightful owners to that land and so do the ijaw, its still till this day in dispute and if the war would have taken place we would not be having this discussion about okrika. Trust me the Okrika/igbo thing is far more controversial that the Ika and edo thing,which as been managed by the Anioma creation.

Anioma State:

https://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc1/object2/759/80/n116550695029284_69.jpg

chyz:
Several many igbo towns in the East contain Ibibio names, Ijaw, Bini, Igala names also and many people bear those tribal last names too. Agbor is no different. Ikaland can clearly be marked and differentiated from edoland. An edo man will tell u with staunchness and confidence Agbor man be Igbo. An Ika man will admit bini connection but say hes not bini. With agbor there is no doubt that the indigenes are Igbo, language,culture, physical structure,characteristics. However to do that with okrika is a whole ball game, especially with the land abandonment and theft from igbos during and after the war, history of the place before that, the dual languages spoken,ect.

seanet03:
ASK PHILIP0906

seanet03:
it wont happen with your ANY GOVERNMENT IN POWER POLITICS
AGIP

chyz:
The line can be drawn between western igbos and edos and i wouldnt call the inter-marriage "heavy";however, in the Eastern region things between the tribes are too intertwined that it is kind of difficult to draw clear lines, for example the whole Opobo land thing and the identity of the Okrika people,and bonny,etc.

Onlytruth:
If ever there will be different internationally recognized political entities emerging from Eastern Nigeria, there is a high likelihood of conflict. However, fortunately, our history and cultural "sameness" has reduced that (conflict) chance considerably.

We will not face a situation similar to what the Israelis and Syrians faced sometime ago during opening stages of one of the failed middle east peace conference.
In that conference, some Israeli ultra-right religious parties came to the conference with a map of "Yisrael" which covered much of Syria, Palestine and Jordan. The Syrians came with their own map which covered all of Lebanon and Israel and Jordan. So president Reagan told everyone to leave their maps at home.
Peace cannot be found in maps especially when the lands in question are too microscopic.

So back to topic. We don't have such intricacy with Eastern Nigeria. We are one religion, culture and heavy inter-marriage. 99% of our problems have been solved already.

THE AMAKA:
sheesh, you people aren't tired?
so no one has reached a conclusion yet?

Andre Uweh:
@Chyz, I think you are a little bit harsh here. In Igbo culture, when you have a visitor, you serve him kola nut whatever the case may be. If someone has come to marry your sister with Manya, whatever the case, the manya will be drank. That is Igbo culture for you. Ohanaeze were right to welcome Ken but they refused his demands.

Andre Uweh:
Port Harcourt sprang up in 1914 as an outlet for coal mined from Enugu. The British acquired land from Igbo chiefs of Ikwerre stock mostly and some Okrika chiefs in 1913.