₦airaland Forum

Candy9:
ị na a sụ kwa igbo?

Hi does this mean: Do you speak Igbo?

Yes.

Andre Uweh:
Objection. Aros were not present during slave raids. Aros might have been involved indirectly by the use of Abam mercenaries, but were never physically engaged in slave raids. Never.

I think you may be right, although I wouldn't go as a far as saying they never raided place. They did use religion to capture people though.

FACE:
Furthermore, it is very strange that original inhabitants would lose their language entirely, to slaves or few strangers.

Not even a brutal occupying force is always able to annihilate the culture and language of the occupied territory, worse case scenario is the establishment of a bilingual society or the absorption of the occupying force.

Look at Fulani conquest with all their ferocity, they adopted Hausa as their official language, even though they were in charge.

The Romans walked the face of Britain for 400 years and English survived.

The German/Brits enslaved South Africa for God knows how long and the best they came up with was Afrikaans.

Arab, the "take no prisoner" of them all colonised the Arab world, yet their local languages survived.

Hm mm, na wa.

The examples you gave are not fully comparable to this topic, like for the Romans, not all British people were in contact with them, same as the Arab's, they didn't completely wipe out cultures. Then again in Bonny for instance the Ibani language still exists. You also have to consider the uses of a language that makes it more useful, for Igbo in these places it was a suitable language for trading all over the area.

Ibime:
It seems you wish to have an argument with yourself. Even the landlocked Swizz have rivers you know.

All you had to tell me was through rivers, no need getting irritable. Anyway, what rivers did they use and which communities did they target, do you have a source, I'm just asking to make sure the information you're putting out is correct.

Becomrich0:
most of you online are not educated. look do you know how much health cost it would be if interracial marrige are more. 1 in 3 white people would have skin cancer. The only solution is interracial marrige , which reduce the percentage. and save health cost.

Now I'm convinced you are another poster whose using this as a joke.

Ibime:
^^^I said Jaja was [b]sold [/b]to Anna Pepple house. Everyone knows Aro captured Jaja.

So how did Ijaw war canoes capture 'landlocked Igbo'?

Are those Yoruba women?

Ibime:
Ijaws would often raid Igbo lands to collect slaves to beef up their War Canoe house. Jaja of Opobo for example was sold to Anna Pepple War Canoe House and later became the head of the House.

Abagworo:
War canoe houses is not ijaw culture.it is a structure that started with european trade.

Can you people provide sources? When was Jaja Opobo captured by Ijaw raiders? When did Europeans create war canoe houses?

Why do people start posting pictures of Spain and Mexico when defending Nigeria? Why can't Nigeria fix a problem even if it is still present in a developed country? So people will start to post Chernobyl pictures next?

EzeUche22:
No matter what you speak. If your grandfather's grandfather spoke Igbo or a variant of Igbo, then you should be in this region.

How will you fit Bonny and Opobo in then when there are other groups in the way of the larger Igbo speaking region?

What exactly is Opobo people's identity, is Opobo an ethnic group?

There should be regions, and within regions, each cultural section should have it's own division inside the region, sort of like how it was before. That is original cultural divisions.

THE AMAKA:
what a load of hogwash!
there will never be an Ngwa state or any more states for that matter.
just go back to zones, GOSH! i think that would work a lot better than this "states" crap.
even the talk of "states" gives me a headache.

I agree.

EzeUche22:
And to make matter worse, you are trying to carve up Abia State.

What is the problem with an Ngwa State?

ChinenyeN:
Instead, what I'm saying is that, in the very 'Igbo' heartland itself, the people there did not really share a consciousness. That's all I'm saying.

I agree, but I don't agree that they did not acknowledge a secondary identity known as Igbo, especially when in contact with outside groups.

Onlytruth:
I'll say you are wrong on that! That map in the link you showed proves nothing about your claims.

I bet you a lot of folks don't know how big Nnewi is.

Nnewi has four towns inside it (big enough to be separate towns). We are just united because we love our town.

Nnewi is the biggest town in Anambra state in terms of landmass.

So there is no way Ngwaland is that bigger, even if bigger.

No, show me a map, there's no way Nnewi is even half Ngwa's size. What other town's is it made up of?

EzeUche22:
Ngwaland is not big enough to be a state. These Ngwa!   My Aro ancestors knew what they were doing when they attacked Ngwaland.

Why not? How big is Enugu compared to that map? Ngwa is half the size of Abia.

Onlytruth:
I don't know how small Ngwaland is. If it is anything as big as my town Nnewi

Well, that's insulting, Ngwa could probably fit 20 Nnewi's into it with space left. The land size is quite big, big enough to be a state.

Map is here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2ITAF9_hlIQC&pg=PA18

ChinenyeN:
Obiagu1, Olaudah's legitimacy is in question. Aside from that though, what Ikengawo is speaking of is the contemporary idea of "Igbo" ethnic group that we have now. So, he's very much correct in making that statement.

Olaudah Equiano lived, but whether he was from Africa is in question. If any Igbo person reads the book they'll know that there is no question that the man came from Africa.

ChinenyeN:
I won't even waste my time with you, Obiagu1. It is common and correct knowledge that we were not "Igbo" until colonization, and that is what Ikengawo is speaking of. If you have a problem with that, then take it up with your ancestors.

There were Igbo organisations in Sierra Leone as far back as the 1850's, I can't believe that Igbo as an identity sprang out of nowhere and was imposed on whoever identifies as Igbo now.

chyz:
Provide the real map then or something that supports your claim.

This is closer to the real map:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SPFk3i7HdBgC&pg=PA26

The map is generous to the Igbo because it gives a lot of Kalabari land to them, eating up towns such as Abonnema, Degema and co. The truth is that Igboland south stops right underneath Port Harcourt. The other parts of the map are correct, maybe apart from the crossing of the boundary over River Benue. If there was ever an Igbo country and Ijaw country, the Igbo would have to ask permission and sort out a deal to use their Bonny River because Port Harcourt isn't directly connected to the Atlantic.

The original homeland of the Igbo is probably around the whole area that stretches from Nsukka to Okigwe and then Afikpo.

People should ignore obviously mad people calling the warriors of Agbor and the rest slaves of the Igbo, when they don't even agree they were part of the Benin Kingdom.

Ikengawo:
in the case of the igbo, i think this group or a patron entered igbo land and found there were people already there that were probably more like the delta peoples, where as the new settling group was more like the yoruba/benin. I think the cultures mixed in the case of the igbo and that's how we have the igbo we have today.

A lot of what you said makes sense, but I think the Delta people's came out of the Igbo, like the Ijaw, or maybe they are a mix of Benin, etc peoples. I say this because they have an 'Oru' origin theory as well. Or maybe both the Igbo and the rest come from people called 'Oru'.

Ikengawo:
- igbos have been proven as the oldest ethnic group in nigeria,.the yoruba and benin have art that's almost identical to each other and to that of Nok showing a cultural link and common origin but both groups still share many words and traditions in common with the igbo. i don't think the igbo were one with this common group but i think this common group infiltrated into igbo land and mixed in with the locals. this explains linguistic ties with the yoruba and benin as well as the linguistic difference.

I think that the Igbo, or whoever were their ancestors, originally stretched further into what is now Yoruba lands, these people may have come and mixed with them a little until maybe a conflict. The 'Moremi' story gives hints to this.

Ikengawo:
- There was never an 'igbo' ethnic group prior to colonialism. The igbo ppl were there but didn't see each other as 1 united people. If you were to ask and igbo in the ancient world if they were igbo they would tell you no, im (INSERT VILLAGE NAME) but those guys are igbo and point to the next closest village. igbo was a term igbos used for others around them but not themselves. Till this day the Ikwerre maintain this mentality.

Some of the oldest Igbo artefacts were found in a town called Igbo-Ukwu. There is an Akwukwu Igbo on the western side of the Niger along with Igbuzor. There's an Oyigbo near Port Harcourt, which, for some reason some people are calling 'Obigbo' and these are just some of the popular towns with the name 'Igbo'. The interesting thing about Akwukwu Igbo is that it means, or at least sounds like it means, 'At the side of Igbo' or 'Beside Igbo', that's in the Igbo language and Igbuzor has been described as 'Igbo bi na uzor' which means 'the Igbo living on the road,' or some say it means 'I bu uzor?' a question about who were the original inhabitants of Igbuzor, known as 'Ibusa', a name which means nothing. All this tells me that there were people identifying with 'Igbo' before even the 1600s, and that the Igbo west of the Niger not only identified as Igbo, but saw themselves as pioneers, e.g Akwukwu Igbo is the equivalent of calling somewhere 'Londinium'.

Ikengawo:
The igbo ethnic group was essentially formed by trading patterns and the spread of a common religion and not a common origin. so my theory is true for SOME igbo but not all so were delta natives, some may have came from benin and so forth but the market day culture and spread of ideas turns a people 'igbo'.

None of them came from Benin as a whole, no one even in Agbor will tell you the whole town came from Benin. There are a lot of families, though, that came from Benin, but the majority are Igbo. I don't believe that the Igbo were created by trade, if so, Igbo land would have quickly absorbed the Kalabari, Ijaw and maybe even some people that are in Benue State. They may have mixed from different arrivals, but I think they expanded from Nsukka-Okigwe-Afikpo.

Ikengawo:
but what happened? if you trade with igbos, you become igbo, because it's a culture created for trade. The people that speak the igbo language flooded the city, overwhelmed it and its institutions, to conduct trade, became igbo
this is how igbo culture spread.

The Obi of Onicha dresses like the Eze Nri. The people of Onicha, if originally Bini, would have a half Bini half Igbo dialect like that of Agbor.

Ikengawo:
as the slave trade intensified trade in the area the igbo culture spread even further. SO yeah, the 'igbo' are not a common people. they're a diverse group of nations that developed a means to conduct trade with each other and that system is known now as igbo culture.

The Igbo expanded like many nations did, and with the expansion diversity was created. There are few Igbo towns that do not have origins that point them towards another Igbo town, the Ikwerre included.

gadogado:
Dont embarrass yourself, Arabs created algebra, were pioneers of astronomy and modern medicine, through their invasion and occupation of Europe (Iberian Peninsula- Spain and potrugal and southern italy) they ushered the western world into what is now known as the renaissance. They ruled Europe for 700 years. Research Cordoba and Andalusia. Again dont embarrass yourself.

You're not consistent. How were Arabs able to do that, when your maps say that they have lower IQ's than Europeans?

ola olabiy:
i also don't know any meaningful invention pioneered by arabs.

Take that back oh!

FACE:
Trace a line from Enugu to PH and you will find that Umuahia falls within the line more or less. The railway line detoured to the left from Enugu to Afikpo Junction  before correcting itself again towards Umuahia and to PH. I went to school in north and I used that line millions of times from Kano to PH and I can still recollect how long it took from station to station.

I am not arguing that Umuahia was not a trading centre, but that the railway made Umuahia grow into a town centre,you can take it anywhere. By the way, what could Umuahia have been trading that was more significant than the export status given to it by the railway, which made it possible for people to bring their palm oil to Ogba mmanu for transport to the north and to the sea port in PH ? You think that if the railway station was at afor Ibeji or orie Ntigha (two equally big markets in close proximity to Umuahia) instead of Ibeku, that Umuahia would still have  out-grown those towns ?

The name Umuahia, has nothing to do with the fact that Umuahia was a trading centre. Are you planning to tell me the history of Umuahia or what ?

A straight line from Enugu to Port Harcourt would mean that the railway would fall on the other side of the Imo, which would make it pass towns and communities like Okigwe and Etiti and would even be nearer Owerre. Obviously other factors came into the decision of the railway route, like cost and land type. The other markets you mentioned do not fall on the trading routes used before the creation of the railway. Aba, Owerre, what is now Umuahia and even near parts of what is now Enugu were all on those routes to the point that there is even still a physical slave route in Umuahia that leads to Arochukwu and dates back to the Atlantic slave trade, not all towns in Nigeria have this. The choice for Umuahia to be included in the railway route was not random. The railway made Umuahia urbanised, yes, but the railway went specifically through Umuahia to pick up agricultural produce on it's way to the major cities.

FACE:
I know Umuahia was a trading post, afterall I am from Ibeku and my house is between Old Umuahia and Umuahia Ibeku train stations and the railway crosses our ama.

The railway gave Umuahia a boost in trading and made the town to flourish.

Enugu also had significant trading (orie Emene) but it was the coal mines that defined the town and the railway traversed Enugu because of the Coal. The railway did not bend for Umuahia.

Take a look at PH -Enugu express way and you would notice the same pattern. Umuahia is along the part from Enugu to PH. If anything at all, the railway bent for Afikpo junction which was an emerging town at the time.

The railway had to go through Umuahia to collect agricultural produce, as this was a major place for this type of trade, nothing Enugu had to offer compared to Umuahia in terms of market, there are other towns like Okigwe and co the railway could have gone straight past.

gadogado:
^^^   
you seem bitter, you see you're diverging, attempting to change the topic of discussion to genetics and black race this and that. The fact that black Africans are closely genetically related is indisputable, Ok in the interest of appeasing you, lets dump the term "black race" seeing that it bothers you so much. I'll agree for the sake of argument that there is no such thing. Instead, I'll simply say "dark skinned people from the African continent" are the least intelligent people in the world. Now what??
Wonder why you're fighting so hard against the existence of race I guarantee you'd be championing a "black race" if it were at the top of the world's power hierarchy as opposed to the very bottom as is the present case. Either way, don't be too emotional, that is an African feature thats hurts Africans. Try being logical, we're here or at least I am to learn and debate constructively not engage in over heated emotion-laden arguments, thats a little immature in my opinion. We can always agree to disagree.
My question is simple, is "black" lack of intellectual capacity responsible for their current predicament i.e- lack of development, if it isn't, then what is responsible. Im not asking whether you're genetically closer to a Frenchman than your neighboring Igala or Idoma.

You haven't been able to defend any of your points, you dodge most of them when someone shows them to be untrue, so what exactly is mature about this 'debate'? Forget it, you've convinced no one and your thread, for the most part, is useless.

FACE:
Enugu was the main reason why Umuahia had any significance at all, because Umuahia was a railway town and the railway was built in the first place because of the Coal mines in Enugu.

No, Umuahia, as even indicated by it's name was and always was a busy trading post in the area as a home to a host of trading communities, the railway itself bends for Umuahia, the planners could have had other places more important if Umuahia was not significant.