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Hopefully Anti-spam bot won't ban me again for responding to this post. I will edit when I am at home

jamesid29:
.... which comprise?... Brosss no vex say I dey laugh but mehn,this conversation is something else.... The way you are trying to rope me and Diodorus together is actually comical. Na you talk say the ziggurat was used for space exploration because Diodorus said so,

Now na you are arguing against him but making it look like you're arguing against me. . The switch is just really really funny.
And no the idea that Etemenanki was the abode of marduk doesn't come from Diodorus but from Babylonian primary sources as attested to a temple being at the top and ziggurats being a well attested fixture in mesopotamia(every major city in mesopotamia had a temple complex with a ziggurat to the patron god/goddess of the city and some cities even had more than one: like Kish had three).
Brossss, stop digging in into something so trivial.


.... Brossss, when I said you should read your very own sources well, you said..... First of all the paper and the quote is from your very own links

The paper is under the "more research details" link.
Secondly, Andrew George is one of the foremost Assyriologist in the world, so except you want to say you know more than him, I don't see you providing any rebuttal paper that contradicts him.


Bross.... why are you using english to confuse yourself like this. Pls read this again


And esagila was a temple... and yes shrines can be very plentiful. Brosss , you sha made sure you keep digging in sha


. Boss....Pls calm down and read this thing well.

Buddhism is fundamentally a nontheistics religion but even at that they still temples for spiritual purposes.
You sha want to make shrine special and a temple into country club.. . This man...



Which drift boss... . Marriage as a sacred institution comes the western worldview that marriage is instituted by God. That's why there's so much debate in the western world in the redefining of marriage laws...
Court of law is not a sacred a institution, it's a legal institution sir. Courthouses are not known as temple of justice around the world sir, the people who say that use it in a metaphorical sense (just like saying land of greener pastures). Funny enough the people who use that phrase are mostly Nigerian journalists and a few Indian sources (two deeply religious nations)... Brosss, you went to Google to find loophole ... .And the temple of justice in the usa is just the name of the building in that was only built in 1920, so basically before then there was no justice in America... . Basically what you are doing is called a definition fallacy.
This man. I just put temple of justice into Google, na so so Nigerian newspaper I dey see. You sha dey find loophole.



Yes sir, Assyriologist FOLYKAZE... I'll be looking forward to reading your paper on this. I can actually recommend a couple of journals for you sir if need be

Another funny thing the very page you did copy and paste for the @bolded "ancient folks celebrate New year festival around it" also has

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat

You left that part out like say you didn't see it...
This conversation is pure cruise....The way you even made the statement with all seriousness....


As opposed to shrines that are what sir...


.... Pure cruise


... Brossss, how did we go from ancient mesopotamia to 21st century christainity. I always knew sooner or later,something like this was coming.





Brossss . I don't even understand what going on this one. You were the one that brought up Diodorus, you were the one that brought up Herodotus. Where did I force you to accept Herodotus? . The only thing I said was if you are going to discredit Herodotus, then you automatically have to disqualify Diodorus, now you are moving left and right. .. this man




So now it's legend ,no more history...
I'm pretty sure you never really bothered to checkup who Ctesias was cos if you did you wouldn't make such a statement. Basically what you are saying is that ,all throughout the reign of Cyrus the Great,no one thought of keeping an archive. . Pure cruise
Anyway this is the quote you are looking for:

Ctesias was the author of treatises on rivers, and on the Persian revenues, of an account of India entitled Indica (Ἰνδικά), and of a history of Assyria and Persia in 23 books, called Persica (Περσικά), written in opposition to Herodotus in the Ionic dialect, and professedly founded on the Persian Royal Archives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesias
You missed the professedly part. Basically what it means is that he claimed that his work was[b] based on [/b]Persian archives not that he was the one that founded it.
When I say you're just copying and pasting things without really trying to understand the actual material, it sounds like I'm just trying to be.....



The fact that you don't even know that it doesn't matter which building you are talking about shows that you really don't know this material boss. It seems you don't even know that Assyria and Babylonia are two different nations. Esarhaddon was Assyrian bross, not Babylonian. It was Sennacherib(Esarhaddon's father) who destroyed the city and temple when Babylon was under Assyrian rule around the 6th century,just as Isreal and it's temple were destroyed during Babylonian rule over Isreal. When Esarhaddon got enthroned after his father, that's when he got to restoring the city's religious centers even though he never got around to finishing it... Esarhaddon never claimed to be the first person to build the temple, he only claimed to be the one to restore it. Bros, there's a big difference between someone rebuilding something and someone building it for the first time. You only rebuild something that was destroyed. Na this English thing na hin cause problems wey you still dey argue temple Vs shrine since.
Bosss you no know this topic well, leave am.


.... Brossss you go just dey post paper wey you no read. Pls whats the title of this paper you posted.





.... Yes sir , Assyriologist FOLYKAZE.
This conversation is pure cruise




Oh so now we are in the realm of conspiracy theory.. . So they basically passed the knowledge down through a secret group all the way to modern architects but the tablet itself was lost. Makes sense sir
Quick question. You said it was the tablet that sparked the architectural revolution but now it's not the tablet but the secret knowledge that has been passed down? Which one is it sir.
Secondly sir, this secret group that sparked the architectural revolution with knowledge that was passed down before we discovered the tablet, are they affiliated with freemasons or two of them don't see eye to eye.



.... No comment sir.
I see,you don add "entirely" to the matter.

It is well my oga..... Anything you say from here on out I agree sir. You seem to be an expert all by yourself.. Weldon sir, I know having all this information all by yourself is not easy sir

Maximus69:
Well Jehovah's Witnesses have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that it was a real event!

Subjects like Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Geography, Agricultural Science, Account, Commerce, Economics have textbooks but all the textbooks and studying could only be considered useless if it's just about theories, without any practical application which will lead to benefits!

Of course we're all reading the Babel story from an old book but a global family of peace loving worshipers got their motivation and inspiration from reading, studying, meditating and applying what they found in the BOOK!

Tortoise story has some in grain of morality which are used for coexistence. The standard of the story doesn't change it nature from been fable

Maximus69:
I think you've been on Nairaland long enough to know all the rules!
So if you feel like responding to my post just calm down and try choose words wisely so as to avoid being barred by the moderators.
See you later!

Antispam bot don't follow rules. I wasn't banned for using abusive, insulting, or hateful words on this thread. Anti-spam bot works like a rabid dog sometimes.

And Seun is not ready to tame his dog. The mod he employed monitoring this section, OAM4J, is just too docile. When Buzugee was a mod and issue like this pop up, you only need to send a mail to him and he will let you out of the hook. Something like this has happened to me twice, got clipped by spam bot, and I mailed OAM4J and Seun but they were both not responsive or awaken to their duty. But wetin man go do to a stray dog when it charmer is inactive.

The said post waste meant for you either. The world don't revolve around you friend

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s8/images/ac-composite-lightning.jpg[/img]

TheBedWench, you seem to deliberately not get it, that, I have no iota of desire whatsoever in me, to want to know what I already know about "the gods will thunder fire you" Trust me, I really already know what the manner of speaking means.

So, this means, I am not interested in knowing what the Yoruba parlance "Ara, a san, pa ẹ" means, besides it is not classified info. The meaning of that Yoruba parlance "Ara, a san, pa ẹ" when loosely translated means "May a lightning bolt from the gods, strike you down"

I am sure you might have seen similar instances, as like in above displayed picture of people who survived getting struck by lightning bolts, but "gifted" with burnt, scorched, singed, charred, blackened, bruised, streaked pattern marks resembling a tree over their bodies.

Now what I explicitly made known and clear to you, was that I have the utmost desire and/or keen interest, in you reproduce for me, in verbatim, this alleged particular panegyric (i.e. "oriki'') on Sango please, saying death by fire, is appropriate punishment for great offences

You advanced, there is a supposed Sango "oriki'', talking of him, endorsing death by fire, as appropriate punishment for great offenses, so where is this "oriki'' and are you, at all ever, going to provide this supposedly Sango "oriki'', hmm?

I really would need that you reproduce here, in verbatim, this particular panegyric (i.e. "oriki'') on Sango please, saying death by fire, is appropriate punishment for great offenses. Or was this just a spurious, make-believe, claim manufactured by you. Is this why you're unable to back the "pretence" up with substantiated evidence, hmm?

[img]https://s8/images/Orunmila.jpg[/img]

What you call "over 100 Hebrew names of God" are not names of God. They simply are bunches of or combination of titles, epithets, placeholders, adjectives, attributes, characteristics, descriptors et cetera of God. The Yorubas, again, I dare say, are best, in grasping how to exploit this "satori" of using panegyrics (i.e. "oriki'') in versatile and gymnastic style to appeal to the sense so to make the "orí" swell (i.e. orí in English means head), stir up, invoke the spirit of gods/kings/husbands/wives/children/reputable person et cetera. Yorubas, will even go the extra mile, up the ante, when necessary and/or when push turns to shove, by going the route of "ọfọ" (i.e. negative incantations) or "ògèdè" (i.e. positive incantation)

No one other people group, more than the Yorubas, IMHO, are as experienced or skilled as them, in being well versed and adept in using panegyrics (i.e. "oriki'') "ọfọ" (i.e. negative incantation) or "ògèdè" (i.e. positive incantation)

Now TheBedWench, contrary to your "over 100 Hebrew names of God" claim, as I earlier advanced, they aren't at all God's personal name and I am sorry to be the one pricking a needle into that your illusion balloon of anyone knowing God's personal and know it enough to mention the name so to invoke it towards doing our bidding of yielding results we desire

The three times, God was asked what His Name was, He rebuffed each occasions in no uncertain terms, asking on two occasions why He is being asked His Name, when even if He should it, it will be incomprehensible to the questioners. The third occasion when Moshe aka Moses was asked of His Name, God ducked the question with the reply, tell them "I AM that I AM" is the Name of the God who sent you

Orunmila, who is believed to have existed a long earlier Socrates, is one of my favourite philosophers. Have you ever heard of the Yorubas proselytise or wage an ethnic faith/belief war, like the Jihad or the Crusades? I have always been fascinated by Yoruba mythology and cosmology, as one can see how they try to draw parallels, albeit, if you pull the thread(s), hmm, wrong move, its comes apart at the seams, as if like, its an okrika fake designer shirt bought at an obscure flea market place.

How to obtain deliverance, redemption, reconciliation and salvation (i.e. meaning how one can be saved) by Abba YHWH, God differs greatly in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Yoruba Isise, ATR et cetera for the most part of these alternative faiths/beliefs, these are obtained mainly through sacrifices performed by human being priests. Buddhism, itself doesnt even believe in God/god(s)

Enough of my rant and rave, better I trot along and move on

Your are talking of the seven spirits of God encapsulated as the Holy Spirit. This circa 2000 years ago has freely made available for all that believe to without measure receive

About "gnosis" God, it is this same Holy Spirit aka Spirit of Truth, that teaches believers all truth, guides them into all truth and everything (i.e. John 14:26 and John 16:13)

God objects and frowns at spiritism, ancestor worship, divination through unsavoury mediums, witchcraft/witchery/wizardry, sorcery, occultism, "ọfọ" (i.e. negative incantations) clairvoyance, necromancy, juju/voodoo/okija shrines, masquerades et cetera

"Egregores" did exist but they weren't non-physical beings, my dear beloved easy to get along with new found friend. The discussion on the "Egregores" is out of the scope of this thread's topic heading, but suffice to say "Egregores" are not angel and vice versa

Angels exists as extraterrestrial beings aka celestial, cherubim and seraphim angelic host of heaven, or as terrestrial agents aka human beings on earth, besides them there also exists fallen angels, a third of the angelic host of heaven that mutinied with Satan

The Godhead, truly on the strength of expressing Himself as "I AM that I AM" does exists, on different levels wearing different costumes playing different roles. God, expressed Himself as "I AM, that I AM," that is meaning, God will be and become whatever is necessary for Him, His purpose(s), His objective(s), His aims, His plan(s) et cetera to become a reality, accomplishment or achievement. Did I mention that God is ∞, as in, meaning, God is infinite or infinity, hmm?

God is a Incorporeal. He is a Spirit, the Spirit without any bound, without limit, without a beginning, without an end. God oxymoronically has no beginning and no end. He is the beginning/first and the end/last. God is someone bigger and larger than any specified number, even three, trinity, triune or trio persons . This means, dont put God in a box. It explains why God in His infinite wisdom DIDNT ALLOW THE WORD TRINITY, to be PRINTED out black and white kokoro IN THE BIBLE.

Upon rounding up, I must give you a friendly advice concerning the BoE though, it is a 1st to 4th century bestseller book archetype of Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code" but on steroids. Not worth the paper its written on. Nobody deemed it significant enough to warrant it outrightly be mentioned in the Bible, speaks volume, of inconsequentially it is regarded
cc: FOLYKAZE

Agba yin a pe o

Maximus69:
FOLYKAZE, you will notice that the only purpose why most people like to talk is to justify whatever they choose to do, 99.99% of humans doesn't care about what will benefit Mankind as a whole!

The Bible is a book given to mankind for the readjustment of our thinking towards achieving a global family of peace, whoever can't present, point, show, tell, speak of a GROUP performing well in this respect doesn't understand the book at all!

This is not a paperwork where each person can just come and point to something for others to read in a book but finds it difficult to present something vivid (real) as a result of what we've learnt from the book!

The Babel story talks about how God disrupted the work of the human society back then by confusing their language, but today the same God is uniting OBEDIENT individuals throughout the earth and they're working together as one family again. Anything short of that will amount to mere fruitless arguments on paperwork!

The Babel account according to the bible is fabricated tale, it parallel with history.

jamesid29:
Lol, bros pls goan read this thing well.
You still want to be arguing the difference between temple and shrine and what a temple signifies especially in the ancient world. Bros you've turn this conversation to cruise abeg

I have gone into compromise with you, way past argument. Etemenanki is the dwelling house of Marduk, going by Diodorus claim that Marduk has a room, occupied with beds where a virgin lady climb into to have sex with Marduk. But really, there is no evidence to all of these, nor there is evidence that Etemenanki serves as a shrine. The only known shrine is Esagila.

jamesid29:
Lol, so now you know more than experts in the field that have spent a good chunk of their professional career studying this things. This one is not faith that you can say the Spirit revealed it to you boss. At the very least bring rebuttal from another paper.

@bolded.... When I said you should read the papers carefully, you go think say na insult I won insult(see why I dey try die this matter since). The ziggurat itself wasn't two storeys, it's the temple at the top that was two storeys
Abeg Read am well again https://www.nairaland.com/6057405/tower-babel-insight-into-space/5#93123213

Sir, can you help your "source," by presenting evidences he proclaimed that there are additional two stories sanctuary/temple at top the already seven stories Ziggurat structure, making it nine stories building in total?

jamesid29:
Weldon sir .... Basically what you are saying is since a kings domain is the entire kingdom, his palace has no significance. It is well sir.... I wonder why people built temples in the first place then?
See cruise
When I was trying to explain ancient cosmic geography, you no won gree... Pls, no vex, read my replies to you on this topic again.

Temple though may contain shrine(s) or not, doesn't makes it equivalent to shrine. Esagila is the shrine of Marduk, not Etemenanki.

jamesid29:
Brosss , fighting hard?....
@bolded, why you no read the whole thing boss.
The statement you even pointed out actually had a Not in it, expressing a negation.
Okay this is the whole statement again, pls read it in its entirety.

You should read and understand the statement before posting it here. It reads that Visiting temple does not necessarily mean one is there to worship God.

When you admitted that a temple isn't necessarily a worship centre of God, why are you bent on forcing Etemenanki as the centre of worship of Marduk even when all evidences point to the fact that Esagila is the shrine of Marduk? Was there two shrines of Marduk in Babylon.?

jamesid29:
Brosss, why do you think people used to call marriage a sacred institution . What do you think the whole debate about the redefining of what marriage is, is all about?

The drift wont work again. Court of law and marriage are both sacred institutions. The courthouse around the world are known as Temple of justice. These temples serves judicious and social responsibilities, with highly exception from religiosity.

jamesid29:
So now we are on maybe... Bross. I neva hear of social temple in the ancient world before o... You sha don't want to gree . Like I said, you've already dugged in too deep.

In the absence of empirical evidences pointing to the spiritual function of Etemenanki asides that ancient folks celebrate new year festival around it, then the best word to use to capture other social functions is "maybe".

Needless to say, temples are not just sacred spaces, they are also secular spaces where political elites and kings draw political powers. It also serves as room of justices. And could be monumental edifice.

jamesid29:
Naa, seriously, I personally was hoping for a well grounded conversation where at the end of the day, we most likely wouldn't convince eachother because of our theological differences, but at the very least we both walk away from the conversation knowing a bit more about each others point of view. Its just so funny that you left all the places where the real conversation is to pitch your tent on the most self evident part, digging so deep to the point of denying normal english. At that point, the conversation turn to cruise.
If you had said you believed the tower was a regular tower,not a ziggurat, we won't even have started this conversation in the first place

What you call regular tower is know by the Babylonians as Ziggurat. Ziggurat implies a massive structure with a successively receding stories or levels. It has no spiritual undertone

When you arguing from christian standpoint, you see and attribute everything to a deity and supernaturals.

jamesid29:
Boss , you are basically arguing against yourself. You were the one who brought up Herodotus not me, You were the one banking your entire position on Diodorus(which I seem to recall warning you against),not me. Anything I've said about them was only in response to you bringing them up....I've only been using primary sources so I don't know why you are giving the run down on who they are. And also nope, we really do not need greek historians to reconstruct the city's life in the past. As I said from the beginning we have 1000s of surviving primary sources(from contracts to legislation to priestly literatures etc) to do that.

Remember me again who was it who dismissed Diodorus writings because he lived many years after Etemenanki was left in ruins, and wanted me to accept the work of Herodotus because he lived during the period when Etemenanki was standing.

jamesid29:
ou sha pack English together .
Besides this part
Bros, what does this even mean?

The legends narrated by Diodorus Siculus, who drew from the works of Ctesias of Cnidus.

Ctesias of Cnidus was an historian, who founded the Persian Royal Archives. This person have a lot of resources at hand.

jamesid29:
Boss. You sha no won gree.lol . The funniest part is you will be attaching documents and links that I highly doubt you even open but you go sha dey attach them to make it sound like you know the material well, then you will now say see academic. Nearly all of them disagree with any statement you are trying buttress,so why you keep pasting them is an enigma to me.
You said Esarhaddon was the one who originally built it, now you have changed it to built/rebuilt(pick a side). Small time, you go change am to rebuilt alone. Bross abeg die this matter, as I said you know the buzzwords, you really don't know the material.
I seem to remember telling you this

https://www.nairaland.com/6057405/tower-babel-insight-into-space/5#93123213

I said in quite below

The temple of Marduk in Babylon was called Esagila, "the temple that raises its head." It was built from the foundation to basement by Esarhaddon, king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. And the construction was fully completed by Nebuchadnezzar II.

In the context of Esarhaddon, I was talking about Esagila, not Etemenanki.

And his claim corroborate with the royal inscription found on the temple ruins, and also from the letters from his scribe, Mar-Issar. That Nebuchadnezzar II completed it was found in the stele.

It could be just a claim, but the fact is he made the claim and I stand by that claims. All ancient cities and structures were ascribed to Deity designs, Ile-Ife is a good example, as claim hold that Oduduwa established it. Legends could hold that Esagila was built by the Deities, but evidences from archaeological findings establish the Royal inscriptions by Esarhaddon, and letters from his scribe corroborating his claims.

Here is a fresh reference https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/147232354.pdf

jamesid29:
, Which evidence sir. You don deny the only evidence you have for even believing that (Diodorus the Sicilian) after I've pointed out what he really wrote. This is even after I warned you severally that his position is not reliable.

Denied what, when and how? Abi you be the one battling to dismiss his claim on Etemenanki serving as astronomical viewpoint for observing stars?

jamesid29:
Secondly the E-sagil Tablet sparking architectural design na hin funny pass. Something that was only discovered at the end of the 19th century and was only interpreted fairly recently. Or Boss do you want to say we've only recently started building highrise buildings?

Discovered in the 19th centuries but the embedded knowledge in it went through millenniums into the past among the scribes and priests. Scribes and priests then were astronomers, engineers, politicians, physicists, architects, economists, and literature scholars. The knowledge was within elite circles only, and only passed down to initiated members and successors. The bible told us Tower of Babel was the first tower in the ancient days, and the design was imprinted on that tablet.

jamesid29:
Bros this conversation has turn to cruise, as twitter people will say. Check all my conversations on nairaland, you'll never see me using emoji like this but mehn.....

Learning can be fun too na

jamesid29:
Aside: shrine v temple
Think of it this way.... A shrine is like an altar, where you have objects or relics associated with the figure being venerated. A shrine can be to an ancestor(s), hero, saint, deity or any venerated person or cause and it can be anywhere ,in a temple,at a cemetery, in a person's house etc. But a temple is basically the dwelling place of a god(think of it like a king's palace). Because of the vast variety of religions ranging from nontheistic to theistic, form and function vary. But for theistic religions especially in the ancient world,this is the basic idea.
This is the most basic way I can explain it without speaking too much english sir...

Honestly sir, when you agreed that shrine and temple are entirely different, I had played along to fully see if you understand that position.

Shrine is the spot where worshiping, reverence and rituals take place. Even when shrines can be found or may necessarily not be found in a temple, it serves only the religion and spiritual functions. Temple on the other hand have just so many rooms for social, judicial, economic and political roles and functions. Temple came to be the legitimating institution of the ruling elite in the ancient past, not necessarily religious function.

Traditional religion is not evangelical and little is taught about it except to those in the inner circle. Until Babalawo start going on air, tv and radio, public speakings, conferences, and modernizing the practise.... It will attract young and intellectual minds. My token

MuttleyLaff:
Some of us haven't got a blooming clue of what Migdal Bavel aka the Tower of Babel is all about, that's why you get to read a clueless comment such as the immediate one above
me

Kukuma agree that the whole stories in the bible are comics.


We done pass this one tay tay

MuttleyLaff:
Migdal Bavel
If you know you know, and whom no know, well, sorry, that's just the way the cookie crumbles

The figurative tower of babel is not selling, he don bring another jewish folktale structure... We no dey buy

Make I dey Grove my ITT by Fela

Csonice1:
Your question has been answered. you are only repeating meaningless words: see to that ; I have no business with a domineering person devoid of understanding. I have answered every bit of your questions even though you're scared of mine. Good bye.
one day you will get to know the truth: whether in the body, or out of it.

Domineering and scared of your questions? Haaba! Be lenient with falsehood na.

My questions was helping you see through the illogical basement of your reasoning. When you said God should be created for Wright Brothers designs of Plane, that mean you are telling us God built it, and maybe the Bible guided Wright brothers toward building of Aeroplanes. Shebi? Did you see how illogical that is? Funny.

jamesid29:
Temple vs Shrine

Temple and Shrine are both sacred places, but there is some difference between them in connotation. They both hold religious or cultural value, but they do not refer to the same place and, therefore, cannot be interchanged. Shrines, more than religious, have cultural values as they are more related to an individual who is considered important or holy by people. On the other hand, temples are purely religious places that are there for people that belong to their different religions.

What is a Temple?
The word temple refers to a sacred place for the believers of any given form of religion. It is a place which the believers of a particular religion accept as the abode of God. They often visit temples with a view to have the sight of God. Each religion has got its own temple. Even for Buddhists, there are temples. They go to buddhist temple, not to worship Gods, but rather to do aamisa pooja that helps them in their path to nibbana(ultimate spiritual goal in Buddhism and marks the soteriological release from rebirths in saṃsāra). These temples differ from each other in terms of the method of construction, materials used in construction, appearance, and the legend behind their construction and the like.

At the emboldened, stop fighting too hard. Visiting temple does not necessarily meann one is there to worship God.

jamesid29:
-Differencebetween

Sacred[ sey-krid ]

adjective
devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated. -Dictionary

The word temple comes from Ancient Rome, where a templum constituted a sacred (refer above for meaning) precinct as defined by a priest. - wiki
Mesopotamian temples Edit

The temple-building tradition of Mesopotamia derived from the cults of gods and deities in the Mesopotamian religion. It spanned several civilizations; from Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Babylonian. The most common temple architecture of Mesopotamia is the structure of sun-baked bricks called a Ziggurat, having the form of a terraced step pyramid with a flat upper terrace where the shrine or temple stood. -
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Marriage and court of law are sacred institutions, having no resemblance with religiosity.

Maybe Etemenanki is mere a sacred social (rather than religious) temple, serving as a monument where Babylonians celebrate new year festival.

jamesid29:
At this point I don't think there's any way I can continue replying without sounding condescending to you cos at this point it's not just about explaining ancient culture and language to you but it seems you want to start denying basic english also and I don't believe there's any way I can keep replying you on things like this without treating you like a third grader.

Smiles

jamesid29:
I can see you've began to deny Diodorus[your only source] now that I showed you that even he doesn't agree with you. As for the other things you raised, I see no reason to engage with them cos as I said in the previous post, you know the buzzwords but not really the material itself (the moment you mentioned Esarhaddon, it became apparent)

Herodotus works are highly respected. However, a cogent review of his life and work suggested that there is no evidence, not a single one, that there is a shrine on the top of Etemenanki; and that he has never visited Babylon or the temple in his lifetime, hence is works though importance cannot be fully relied on. Same applies to Diodorus Siculus , who drew from the works of Ctesias of Cnidus, the scholar who founded on the Persian Royal Archives, base in works much on mythical and legendary viewpoint, rather than historicity. But the points from both writers can be used, with new archaeological findings, to design a caricature of what the city was like in the past.

More again, Esarhaddon claim was found on the wall of Etemenanki ruins, that he built/rebuild the tower basement. This corroborates with the letter of Mar-Issar, a scholar, whose first role was certainly that of a scribe, working for Esarhaddon in Babylonia.
https://lup.lub.lu.se/student-papers/record/4450998/file/4463357.pdf

None of those claims were mine, I attached references and paperwork from academic fields. I don't know what you are on about here.

jamesid29:
Anyway it's fine sir... I was really hoping you would have dropped this topic since but you've dugged in too deep. I'm pretty sure you'd have to reply with your own spin and all. That's fine sir. All the best

Wetin I won spin, chief?

That Etemenanki doesn't serve as astronomical spot for observing the stars. And that the design as shown by Esagila text depicts complex mathematics and engineering computation which aided architecture revolution today. Wetin I dey spin when I don offload all evidences to buttress my points? Sir?

I wish I can buy time to my side.... The bii tch is always making me chase her.

jamesid29:
Definition of abode
1: the place where one lives : HOME
Synonyms:
diggings, domicile, dwelling, fireside, habitation, hearth, hearthstone, home, house, lodging, pad, place, quarters, residence
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abode
Sir, if you don't still understand the spiritual significance of the dwelling place of a god, well.....

I had wanted to define, in your own words, what you meant by SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE. That will make me capture the true painting your mind is trying to portray.

However, going by what you quoted, the spiritual significance of Etemenanki is that it serves as an abode for the Gods, even when there is no definite shrine dedicated to Marduk in there. Ok, I am fine with that. I hope this is why the Bible God became angry with the project, isn't it?

jamesid29:
- Andrew R. George
Refer back to our previous conversation
https://www.nairaland.com/6057405/tower-babel-insight-into-space/5#93123213
Pls read slowly this time and go through all papers attached therein(they are all peer-reviewed papers, not from Billy Bob on the internet).Most of them are from links you provided so it should have most of them by now. The book I provided you is a standard textbook used in students of comparative studies not just a random book. I suggest you read it also if you are really serious in studying the ancient near east.

What exactly do you want me to read? Scholar guesses that have no basis in the texts of the people who lived during when the Esagila and Etemenanki was in use? Read again;

"""This was the high sanctuary of Marduk, more prominent as a landmark than his sanctuary at ground-level, the massive E-sangil.... There is some evidence that the ziqqurrat-temple was a two-storey building, though both storeys may well have been the same length and breadth """

Is Etemenanki two storey structure? You would expect me to take material filled with inconsistencies, lacking empirical evidences corroborating with ancient texts cannot be taken serious. As shown in the quote text above, Esagila is the real shrine or sanctuary, with overwhelming evidence to prove this. Nothing proves there is shrine in Etemenanki.

jamesid29:
Yes, but are you trying to say temples are not religious sacred spaces for the gods?

Hahaha
Everywhere can be temple or abode of the God's, but cannot necessarily be the shrine of a particular God.
Babylon is the gate of God, mean it is Marduk gateway from heaven into Earth, this doesn't mean the whole Babylon is shrine of Marduk or any particular Gods.

Csonice1:
Honestly speaking, the plane was copied from the already existing.(Topic for another day).
But understand that God created someone that is better than a robot, and that-someone has the ability to build from the available raw materials.

(you ask questions but you hate them) Now take this; if a scientist could build a robot that has the ability to design a car, who receives the praise for a good car design?
A.Robot
B.Scientist
C.None
B.Both

You are only drifting into something insignificant to my question.

Is it God that designed airplane?

Csonice1:
That's good!
Exactly my point, they violated a spiritual law through pride, lust, and ignorance.

Violating spiritual laws? Is it God's plan that man should be be isolated, like a wild beast or fedal, exempted from civilisations?

OgatheTop:
Always keep your SIM pack.

Nuff said.

The pack now is miserably small and keeping it will be difficult. I bought my sim in 2007, how do you expect I keep a pack that long?

Any act involving Nigerian police is catastrophic alone. Come add purchase of recycled sim of kidnapper or criminal, make dem kuku ma create space make I die myself be that.

alphaNomega:
FOLY, nice thread.

The holy bible is a comic book written by men who did not know what causes rain to fall and the sun to rise and set

It is a pity we have humans in 2020 who still carry the matter on their head like a do or die affair.

I just can't wrap my head around that book.

MuttleyLaff:
#1) https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2161.htm
#2) https://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/11-6.htm
#3) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/11-6.htm

Oh finally, he drops the links. But I could see just many Hebrew/Aramaic words in Gen 11:4,5 and 6, though our wised muttley taunted just three words; amar, banah, and zamar, from among the verses.

Just in Genesis 11:5, the transliteration goes thus:
Yah·weh vai·ye·red. lir·'ot ha·'ir ham·mig·dal a·sher be·nei ha·'a·dam. ba·nu
https://biblestudycompany.com/reader/verse?version=king_james&book=1&chapter=11&verse=5&_token=y7o1ITxW1TPnbX4o9jJqKVUz42Tla36II5Q5uMvW&diff=off&diff=on

KJV Translation reads: And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Yahweh left his place in heaven, vai·ye·red (came down, descended, alighted cross referenced Genesis 15:11, 8:20) lit.'ot (to see, supervise, have experience, stare, gaze, observe, oju korokoro. Cross reference Genesis 1:4, 1:18), ha.'ir (a city, town, court, encampment, post, settlement. Cross reference Genesis 4:17, 10:12 ), ham·mig·dal (tower, rostrum, podium, watchtower, castle Judges 9:46, 8:9), which the children of men ba.nu (construct, fortified, fashioned, made, surely built, develop, create <<procreate>>> produced. Cross reference Genesis 2:22, 4:17, 8:20)

To our darling friend, Yahweh came down, descended from his heaven to earth because of non materialized plans of some folks. Yahweh came down and saw the blueprint only, his eye were blinded to the city and tower mankind had builded. Mr muttley, if you are using drugs, please reduce the intake.

When one see Muttley, you would think built or builded in Genesis 2:22, 4:17, 8:20 is mere blueprint, survey paper or manuscripts.

Abeg I won't talk about this again with you. You are embarrassment already. Thanks.

MuttleyLaff:
Just so you know, Nimrod is an archetype, just as Babylon, is an archetype and that wasn't an ordinary tower proposed and planned in their minds to build

Nimrod is an archetype, just as Babylon is an archetype. Hahahahaha

jamesid29:
I believe @ bolded are all self explanatory. And I also took all of this quotes from sources you posted.

This doesn't answer my question sir. Check the question again

What do you imply by SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE? I for one thought that mean act of worship, reverence, ritual and occultic practices. Please tell us what you meant by that phrase and how it relates with Etemenanki.

jamesid29:
Refer above and below.

Well there is no evidence of altar, shrine, idols, images of Marduk or centre of worship on the top of Etemenanki. Do you have contrary evidence?

jamesid29:
You are contradicting your own points here sir. You just called it a temple(https://www.dictionary.com/browse/temple) but still want to maintain that it's not....Anyways you're thinking of the wrong temple though

Haaa

Were you not the one that said Shrine isn't same as Temple? That temples does not necessarily contain shrine.

jamesid29:
Secondly the tupšar Enûma Anu Enlil are late Babylonian temple scribes (6th century BC their job was to predict omens for the king and state), the ziggurat precedes them by about a 1000yrs. They also flourished well into the ADs(75 AD and possible into the 3rd century AD), but the ziggurat fell into ruins around the 530BC.(basically another 500 - 800 yrs after)
From what I can piece together sir, you do know the buzzwords but have never really settled down to really study the materials.

Mr sir, this is what you think. Babylonian astronomy dates back into third millennium before Christ. Thr sky observation then is related to ancient celestial omens which can not be categorised as theory of astronomy in modern sense. During this period, they already associated Marduk with Planet Jupiter. Celestial divination, which grew into astronomy is therefore generally reported to begin with late Old Babylonian texts (c. 1800 BC), continuing through the Middle Babylonian and Middle Assyrian periods (c. 1200 BC) Brown, David (2000). Mesopotamian Planetary Astronomy-Astrology . pp. 254–55. https://books.google.com/?id=__8uAAAAYAAJ

Enuma Anu Enlil is the tablet where these observations are recorded by tupšar, sky priest, dating back into a millelium before Christ was born. The beginnings of this collection is certainly in Sumerian times i.e. at least 2300 BC- the time of Sargon the Great, but the tradition of observing the sky and collecting omina surely is much older and goes into prehistory... http://www.babylonianastrology.com/downloads/Enuma_Anu_Enlil.pdf

Venus tablet of Ammisaduqa, another part of the in Enuma Anu Enlil dates back to 750 BC, but the knowledge went way back before that.

Astronomical diaries expanded on Enuma Anu Enlil and dates back to the reign of Nabonassar (747–734 BC).

Tupšar are astronomical scribes, a profession that is more than 3 millelium before Mary met Joseph.

jamesid29:
Finally using Diodurus Siculus as your only source point isn't really a good idea. He lived atleast 500yrs after the ziggurat fell into ruins. We know almost nothing about him and his work Bibliotheca historica was a compilation of works from other greek historians ,not from any Babylon source either ancient or contemporary. Even modern historians review of his work only should disuaded you. But if you must know, here's the full paragraph of what he really said on the matter

"In the middle of the City, she built a Temple [/b]to Jupiter, whom the Babylonians call Belus (as we have before said) [b]of which since Writers differ amongst themselves, and the Work is now wholly decay'd through length of Time, there's nothing that can certainly be related concerning it: Yet it's apparent it was of an exceeding great height, and that by the advantage of it, the Chaldean Astrologers exactly observ'd the setting and rising of the Stars. The whole was built of Brick, cemented with Brimstone, with great Art and Cost. Upon the top she plac'd Three Statues of beaten Gold of Jupiter, Juno and Rhea.That of Jupiter stood upright in the posture as if he were walking; he was Forty Foot in height, and weighed a Thousand Babylonish Talents. The Statue of Rhea was of the same weight sitting on a Golden Throne, having Two Lions standing on either side, one at her Knees, and near to them Two exceeding great Serpents of Silver, weighing Thirty Talents apiece. Here likewise the Image of Juno stood upright, and weighed Eight Hundred Talents, grasping a Serpent by the Head in her right Hand, and holding a Scepter adorn'd with precious Stones in her left. For all these Deities there was plac'd a Common Table made of beaten Gold, Forty Foot long, and Fifteen broad, weighing Five Hundred Talents: Upon which stood Two Cups weighing Thirty Talents, and near to them as many Censers weighing Three Hundred Talents: There were there likewise plac'd Three Drinking Bowls of Gold, one of which dedicated to Jupiter, weigh'd Twelve Hundred Babylonish Talents, but the other Two Six Hundred apiece; but all those the Persian"

https://www.sarata.com/history/diodorus-siculus/library/page.58.html
Jupiter is marduk(Bel), so boss even your only source talks about it as a temple to Jupiter with his statue and other worship relics.

Josephus antiquities, containing history of the Jew, went back to the Garden of Eden, many thousands years before Josephus was born. Yet today, most of his writings were held as reliable for Jewish historical discussions.

Diodorus wrote about the temple Etemenanki, and stated that it was built by Semiramis, an unknown queen which many writers claimed is the wife of King Ninu (founder of Nineveh), wife of Nimrod, and Shamshi-Adad V. There are lot of conflating information about her but none is significant.

The story went on that no one has ever enter the room in the top except a virgin lady who allergy have sex with the Gods. But there is no shred of evidence of this anywhere. Traces of human and God sex can only be found in distant Egyptian culture, not in Babylon.

jamesid29:
4. Do you agree that Esagila tablet reveal the complex mathematics and engineering behind Etemenanki which aided architectural revolution of today?
E-sagil Tablet is not the architectural design of the real ziggurat. It was either the design of on idealised abstract ziggurat temple or was mathematical exercise model for would-be(students) surveyor. Secondly the tablet was only discovered in the late 19th century and disappeared into private hands until fairly recently, so.....

Hahahaha

The mathematics model found in Esagila tablet relates largely with physical design of Etemenanki. Whats all this running around nitori olorun?

jamesid29:
Well, no offense sir but I'll pass on that. The conversation has been like trying to convince a flat-earther that the world is round. But I truly do understand though. We all have ideas and precept that we hold onto dearly regardless of whether we know it's true or not. Its always an herculean task to make a shift in thought for any ideology we really need to be true(that's just part of being human).
Its a shame we never really got to the fun stuff though( what the biblical story was passing across), but it's fine. Some other people might do a better job at that sef so I'll leave you guys to it.
I do hope you get to read the paper on Deut 32 I gave you, It should be right up your wheelhouse. And you should also check the author out Dr Heiser (https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/newstarthere/ , https://drmsh.com/). I really think you would like his work.

Happy Sunday and Enjoy your week.

Oh Darling. I am really enjoying conversations with you, honestly. Learning alot I swear. And a section like this is where I really want to be part of....

Well that book you recommend on Deut 32 has nothing to do with me o. It is talking about the debate on sons of God and sons of Israel in verse 8. I am talking about Yahweh inheriting Israel or taking him as his own portion, when God supposedly should own the whole earth and inhabitants. Who did Yahweh inherited Israel from? Why did Chemosh only possessed Moab according to Mesha Stele and the Hebrew Bible?

70 nations in Genesis 10 was divided and shared among the 70 children of El, and Yahweh portion or inheritance is Israel. This implies that Yahweh evolved from Canaanite concept of God, and he is the child of El. Many records of Yahweh can be found in Urgarit texts

Csonice1:

--1--
God.
Because, He gave them life, wisdom and raw materials.

Na God design plane? Hahahaha

Csonice1:
--2--
(Outlaw? : a dictionary might help)
they were doing it as a way to boast of what they can do: make a name for themselves: [ build a single city as against many good cities now in the World] ; they were trying to lie to themselves through the project; just like the Titanic; just like nebucadnezzer in Daniel4. Their assumption was that nothing and no one can stop them. That's pure defiance. God stopped them. ( My answer stops here: but you can pls make reference to the ones below; to ensure that no part of your question was ignored)


#it wasn't just City dwelling that made them outlaws: you[anyone] can be evil even without having a home of your [his] own; The state of your heart is what determines who you are . If the ambition to dwell in a city has severed your heart from God's word, then it's wrong. that was the case with them.

#What City can be compared to Heaven?. honestly, None.
(By the way, even in cities, those who defy authority are punished; it is a proof of good governance. isn't it?: So, my point here is that you can't bribe Him, not even with the prospect of City dwelling; even with it's assumed benefits: that's too small for Him. However, He corrected them(the people) with mercy and Love.)

#Dwelling in cities makes no difference, but [to] ensure on keeping God's Word and Glorifying Him always.

Outlaws are those going contrary to laws.

MuttleyLaff:
Smh, you dont miss a trick do you, hmm?

So the next card you want to play is now "Really if you are a teacher, you will produce very bad students" abi? Erhn? Smh, why don't you show proof anywhere or anytime on NL of me calling arrogating "teacher" status on myself, or better still show me where I've ever typed that I am teaching, hmm? You are just unbelievably a funnier character than I ever know you are. You are making a scene now, but wont remember that you first started when I reciprocate you with kind, or even stronger. Please learn to stick to the subject matter discussed instead of drawing in your emotions and throwing in overt shades at me. It betrays your feeling of being frustrated because of your lack of depth, from being ill-informed and biblically undereducated

I said if you are a teacher, didn't say you are a teacher. Make you calm down.

MuttleyLaff:
See if I care. I think I've previously called you a precious time stealer, precious time killer and a precious time waster anyway. You'll be good riddance to bad rubbish for doing not "waste my time on you again on this thread." It will be my prayers answered, if you slither away to go wallow in ignorance

Now slowly read my lips. No, can do. If you are capable of trawling the internet for info on the daydreamed Tower of Babel, it is a piece of cake for you to equally be capable of finding out how the two "amar" and "banah" Aramaic/Hebrew words used in Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5 are defined, and see the idea or meaning of what the words conveyed

Unfortunately Google does not bring any tangible result to my amar and banah search query. Maybe you should have provide direct links for references. Or better still provide me with detailed Aramaic/Hebrew translation of the verse with corresponding English translation which convey the meaning of amar and banah you are forcing down on us.

MuttleyLaff:
The word used in the original text is "banah" which is an Aramaic/Hebrew word, that lost its meaning when being translated to English word "Built"

Banah is the only Aramaic/Hebrew word there? Give us the full Aramaic/Hebrew texts in that verse.

MuttleyLaff:
FOLY, now, no prizes, for saying the obvious and/or stating the reason why the tower was not mentioned in Genesis 11:8-9

Most notably, the tower was completed already and the city is already taking shape but not fully completed in Gen 11:8-9. This is the reason why the tower was not mentioned.

MuttleyLaff:
This more the reason why I was PMSL at your huge leap of conflating the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" with a daydreamed Tower of Babel fanciful mental image that never got built. I even earlier asked you that do you know that there are no biblical mentioning and no archaeological findings of both Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" and this supposedly built Tower of Babel stele. Do you remember me asking, hmm?

The Bible also mentioned some artifacts like the golden image which evidence have not been found yet. Babylon is a large city, and archaeology research has not covered all the areas of the city yet. It is gradual.

The Hanging Garden is known from ancient writings, there is no archaeological evidence yet. We can talk about the garden when and only there are tons of evidence. As it is now, let's focus of the city and tower. And also address the question, if Babylonia was left at construction site, undeveloped, and project developers were scattered, how come we later have the city that colonised Israel and got attacked by Persia?

MuttleyLaff:
The rule of consistency in writing was not followed on to Genesis 11:8-9 and that is why earlier associated element like the tower was not mentioned in Genesis 11:8-9, for the sole reason that it never in the first place got started. The only thing structurally on ground, that got started was building the city, and so it only got a mention. The building ceased, it was stopped, it was neglected, it was left alone, they quit et cetera

Hahahaha

You are admitting there is something structurally on ground. I thought it didn't leave undeveloped site level.

God already saw the tower standing film in Genesis 11:6, it is the city that was not fully developed.

MuttleyLaff:
"The king spake, and said,
Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
(i.e. And the king answered, and said:
Is not this the great Babylon, which I have built to be the seat of the kingdom, by the strength of my power, and in the glory of my excellence?)"
- Daniel 4:30

"As he looked out across the city, he said, ‘Look at this great city of Babylon! (i.e. no mention of tower)
By my own mighty power, I have built this beautiful city as my royal residence to display my majestic splendor"
- Daniel 4:30

It might interest you to know, it was Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar II' father, who later returned to enlarge and strengthen the city, to make it the capital of the Babylonian Empire under Semitic rule. Now when his son, Nebuchadnezzar II, was boasting, as you can see in Daniel 4:30 above, there still is no mention of a tower. You would have thought that something significant, audacious, bold, impressive in appearance, an eye-catching, spectacular, and imposing structure tower would merit a bonafide mention somewhere again in the Bible, but alas, no it doesnt, not even especially, when a window of opportunity, like in Daniel 4:30 presented itself, for Nebuchadnezzar II to show off the tower, but it didnt happen, solely because no tower worth mentioning ever was built

Show the history above using bible. Show us where the Bible stated that Hammurabi built Babylon. I thought you were the one telling us it was Nimrod? How come you shift ground to Hammurabi when the mentioned Nebuchadnezzar II as the person who built the golden image. I based my word on archaeology findings, show yours with bible. I challenge you.

MuttleyLaff:
No I am not. It is you doing contextomy, trying to distort the original word's intended meaning

I wasn't the one who translated the bible into English. I guess you know more than the translators.

[

MuttleyLaff:
size=12pt]Of course you wont see "amar" or "banah" because they are found in Genesis 11:4-5 and not in the above various listed English translations of Genesis 11: 6

What you'll find in Genesis 11:6 is the Aramaic/Hebrew word "zamam"

I am in a generous mood at the moment, so I will help out with sharing what the above Genesis 11:6, Aramaic/Hebrew word "zamam" in the original text means. You can send me a thank you letter, later, in the post for it. Anyway, it conveys, a sense of, to consider/considers/consideration, intention/intended, plots/plotted, purpose/purposed, schemed and/or plan of action/planned to build the tower.[/size]

Listen buddy, if I have to, I'll iron it out with courtesy, if you deservedly merit and/or earn it and not before. Who sef, do you think you are, making demands upandan the thread, hmm?

The text doesnt have "The son of men had built the city and tower ... ," in it, this is you embellishing the text

Hahahaha

Zamam is the only Hebrew word in Gen 11:6,isn't it?

Let us have the full Aramaic hebrew text and not picky words you brandish around.

MuttleyLaff:
"You cannot help men permanently, by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves".
- Abraham Lincoln

Do the fact check on "amar" from Genesis 11:4 and "banah" from Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5 yourself. You aren't an invalid, so dont expect me to help you do things you are capable, smart, clever, intelligent and literate enough to do on your own. Stop sitting on your hands, pull out your fingers and start lifting up the floorboards to see and find out what "amar" in Genesis 11:4 and "banah" in both Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5 means and how both words are used in the original text, as opposed in English

Here is the thing, my dear defiant friend, if you are reading Bible in English translation and in isolation of comparing with the original text, you can bet that a good 80% of the real bible text word meanings are distorted, are mangled almost beyond recognition and even be wilful errors, for political motives, indoctrination motives, diverse theological motive, hidden agenda et cetera

The problem with reading the Bible, in only English translation(s), is that, you don't get to see how the certain words (e.g. "amar" in Genesis 11:4 and "banah" in both Genesis 11:4 and Genesis 11:5) in the original text or Aramaic language have really been used. This explains why you are discombobulated

Really if you are a teacher, you will produce very bad students. You are the one that came up with Amar and Banah, tell us about it, what you know about it. Or direct me with a link so that I may read what you meant. If you ain't ready to do any of this, I will take you as an unserious person and won't waste my time on you again on this thread.

MuttleyLaff:
What God saw when He came down was a construction site work in progress city being built, but no mention of an actual physical tower erected structure, stele or not stele.

Affirmative, yes, see what they planned, what they purposed, what the imagined in their hearts to do. It was mere a plan, a thought, idea, imagination put on paper that didnt get physically started off. This is shows in the inconsistency of leaving out the mention of the tower in Genesis 11:8-9 [/size]

The word used toward to the end of Genesis 11:5 is Built. This can never mean construction site, but something has already been there, though may not have been completed.

Verse 8-9 didn't mention tower. Only talks about abandoning city building. If they had left the project at construction site, how come we have Babylon city that colonised Israel, and later attacked by Persia?

MuttleyLaff:
Smh, I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse and so the reason why you write comments such like this

You are quoting out of context sir.

This is the full statement which you should interpret:
and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do .

From other English translations


AMP
And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one [unified] people, and they all have the same language. This is only the beginning of what they will do [in rebellion against Me], and now no evil thing they imagine they can do will be impossible for them.

CSB
The Lord said, “If they have begun to do this as one people all having the same language, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

CEV
he said: These people are working together because they all speak the same language. This is just the beginning. Soon they will be able to do anything they want.

DRA
And he said: Behold, it is one people, and all have one tongue: and they have begun to do this, neither will they leave off from their designs, till they accomplish them in deed.

EHV
The Lord said, “If this is the first thing they are doing as one people, who all have one language, then nothing that they intend to do will be too difficult for them.

EXB
The Lord said, “Now, these people are ·united [L one], all speaking ·the same [L one] language. This is only the beginning of what they will do. ·They will be able to do anything they want [L Nothing they want to do will be impossible for them].

ISV
The Lord said, “Look! They are one people with the same language for all of them, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. Nothing that they have a mind to do will be impossible for them!

I am not seeing any Banah or Amah in that texts above.

The son of men had built the city and tower, this is the beginning of what they will do. If they had succeeded with one language and uniqueness, they will do more of this and another and another one and another one with so much success unless we thwart their progress now.

That is what I read and how I understand it. Please if you have contrary view, iron it out with courtesy...

MuttleyLaff:
I think you find relaxation and comfort in ignorance, in addition to depending on them unreliable antiquities collector(s) (i.e. the Norwegian antiquities collector Martin Schøyen) and the "Migdal Bavel" fake discovery. Do you think fake news, only started during the advent of Trump, I asked you earlier, hmm?

Oh you think the stele is fake? That is your problem not mine.

MuttleyLaff:
This has to be one of the most ignorant statement a person can make, which normally I won't have paid attention to, but just for the sake of righteousness, I will say from a bible perspective, meaning, the word of God, Etemenanki is not the daydreamed Tower of Babel

Ok

jamesid29:
Hmmm, the link was there to help you understand what heaven and earth means to an ancient person because you seem to think the space where heaven and earth meets has something to do with the astronomy. I believe I was clear with that here

Haaa bros. I am not looking into this through the prism of 21st century idea of astronomy. As a matter of fact, there were Babylonian temple priests known as tupšar Enûma Anu Enlil who recorded the astronomical diaries. Since Etemenanki is the highest structure in Babylon, Diodorus Siculus would be right by stating that the sky priests used it for astronomical observations.

jamesid29:
Ok so as mentioned before, that quote comes from only Diodorus Siculus. But let me get something straight, the very same place that quote comes from also mention Herodotus who actually lived during the time when the the ziggurat was still standing and considered as the father of modern history as opposed to Diodorus who lived 100s of years after Alexander destroyed the whole thing. You were the very same person that said we can't trust Herodotus words by quoting a very minute part of an entire wiki paragraph and I didn't even argue with you on that we have other ancient mesopotamia sources that says that also, now wants us to trust the words of another greek writer (Diodorus) who lived 100s of years later and we have no other ancient source(not a single one) that attest to what he said and multiple ancient literatures that say otherwise? How does that work?

I dismissed Herodotus claim on Shrine been set on the top of Etemenanki, not on the top serving as spot for astronomical observations. These are two different scenarios.

Record has it that Herodotus has never visited Babylon or the tower before. He only stated that the tower was standing in his time, not that he went inside to study it.

Maybe it is an oversight, I saw somewhere but can't remember vividly that Diodorus expanded on the work of a scribe who served in Babylon.

jamesid29:
Funny thing is, the very same webpage this quote comes from equally says
The temple of Marduk in Babylon
The text, copied from an earlier document, describes the temple of the god Marduk in Babylon as reconstructed by the kings of the Babylonian dynasty of Nabopolassar (625-605 BC) and Nebuchadrezzar II (605-562 BC). This temple was called Esagila, "the temple that raises its head". The text first gives a double description of the base of the multi-tiered tower built inside the city walls or ziggurat, then describes the main temple, and, finally, gives the measurements of the multi-tiered tower, called Etemenanki, "House of the Foundation of Heaven and Earth" - the "Tower of Bable" in the Bible (Genesis 11, 1-9). This tower seems to have had seven stories, built in the form of terraces, and was surmounted by a temple.
https://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/esagila-tablet
Bro what are we doing?....

I should ask you sir, what are you doing?

The statement from Louvre says it seems It didn't say for sure there is a temple on top the tower.

jamesid29:
Now I see where you are coming from
Boss,do you seriously think ive not read this stuffs before . . Ok so going through this one again is another long conversation so here's a paper that dives into Deut 32 and also touches on El and the other stuffs you mentioned.
https://drmsh.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Heiser-Deuteronomy-32-8-and-the-sons-of-God.pdf
I really do hope you read this one

I have downloaded the document. Would go through it later in the day.

cc: jamesid29

Ok. You've helped me read more than I really planned. Thanks for taking your time to share frok your vast thoughts on the subject.

There are something I really want you to clarify.

1. What do you imply by SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE? I for one thought that mean act of worship, reverence, ritual and occultic practices. Please tell us what you meant by that phrase and how it relates with Etemenanki.

2. Do you agree there is no shrine, idols, images and temple on Etemenanki?

3. Do you agree with Diodurus Siculus that Babylonian temple astronomers called tupšar Enûma Anu Enlil computed the Astronomical Diaries by using the temple as the rises where they see into the sky?

4. Do you agree that Esagila tablet reveal the complex mathematics and engineering behind Etemenanki which aided architectural revolution of today?

Please sir make your answers short and precise. We can move unto the next phase of the thread after the answers to above have been addressed. Thanks

MuttleyLaff:
Smh. I am not the only person who has observed that you're an one trick pony and this, you've just proven here again, that you, unrepentantly are one

I gave you "amar" from Genesis 11:4 to go fact check, you wouldn't. Now do you expect me to recommend that you should go fact check how "banah" of Genesis 11:5 and interestingly also in same Genesis 11:4 is defined, when I know, you aren't interested in being correctly informed but you just want to be opinionated and truculent

If you have any information about 'amar' or 'banah' please drop it here. From the simple English in Genesis 11:5, and how I understand the words, God came down to see the city and the tower those people were building (progressing), or sons of man built.
Genesis 11:5
New International Version
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.

You retort banah and amar yet the verse above stated that God came down to see. What did God see when he came down? Mere plans?

MuttleyLaff:
See how you with the highlighted and underlined above, how you have committed an own goal with Genesis 11:6. Need I go on? Need I say more, hmm?

You left one side of the sentence and glued to the irrelevant side which has, without the initial, lost it meaning.

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do .

And now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

That implies there is nothing they set their mind on which they won't achieve.

MuttleyLaff:
I PMSL at your huge leap of the conflating Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" with a Tower of Babel fanciful mental image that never got built. You scampering all over place, leaping from pillar to post, and jumping on to the Cyrus cylinder

Do you know that there are no biblical mentioning and no archaeological findings of both Nebuchadnezzar II's built "the Hanging Gardens" and a built Tower of Babel, hmm?

I repeat, where in the Bible, is this Tower of Babel stele mentioned, hmm? Or you are depending on them unreliable antiquities collector(s) and the "Migdal Bavel" fake news, abi? (i.e. Norwegian antiquities collector Martin Schøyen) Do you think fake news, only started during the advent of Trump ni?

You see my dear friend, I have more than I show, and speak less than I know and is more the reason why, because I have a couple of few unused trump cards, that you don't find me playing the victim emotional, victim psychology and victim personal cards, as few, so far, have being doing on this thread

I only showed you the bible lie sometimes.

Etemenanki is the Tower of Babel. Prove me wrong sir

Csonice1:
Funny enough,
I have answered you and I will answer you once again.

God is to be given glory for everything. For he is the giver of life, he is the giver of strength, power and might: the Earth and beyond belongs to him.
He does everything a great God should do.
If you need your own glory, die first, give yourself life, and work with your own raw materials. While you are typing; how many organs can you live without?: I guess you love them all: He gave them all to you.

About city dwelling:
God knows that humans can do better than wander like animals, thry are humans not animals, moreover, their destiny is not to lurk in a zigurat or whatever.
They have already proven that. Because God's wisdom is in them, to develop the Earth. Even as little as a family is ,once a man is matured enough, he can take care of his own offsprings independent of his location, etc. He doesn't have to wander like an animal; because he is not one; he can make better use if God's wisdom and become great to God's glory, no matter where he is. There is no fun at all in an extended family where everybody is babysitting everyone. And your opinion is that if left on your own the best you can do is to equate yourself to animals. Shame.

They were not the first city dwellers, they will never be the last.
They were outlaws. So if your are talking about God's will for them:
He doesn't want them to be outlaw-city-dwellers.
Come to think of it, one huge earthquake is enough to kick them into extinction, volcano, hurricane, tornado or any serious natural disaster would have been enough to wipe them off. You will still blame God.

Scientifically, Don't you know that the whole descendants of man staying in the same place is too lethal. Even one human error can endager the species of man.

Besides, Most times, city dwelling and civilization amount to recklessness and immorality: so you have to be taught obedience and fear of God first, before you continue. So much is dependent on it.

Let us make this short and precise. Who do you give the glory to for inventing airplane? Wright Brothers or God?

What do you mean by they are outlaws? Does city dwelling makes one outlaw?

MuttleyLaff:
Smh, you didn't deemed it worthy enough, to go over with a fine tooth comb, the above post of mine you have mentioned above. Instead of addressing the cogent points in the post, you instead are behaving like gramophone playing an old classic evergreen popular record but with its needle got stuck on Genesis 11:5

I have for umpteenth times, advanced that Genesis 11:5, is a thought, an imagination, a wish, an idea on paper, yet to physically materialise. The plans to circa Genesis 11:2-9, structurally build the tower, never materialised. It never became actual or real, was never realised nor carried out because God disrupted the plan by throwing a spanner in the works, preventing what they planned build, by causing a communication problem, and/or language difficulty.

PMSL at your huge leap of the conflating Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" with a Tower of Babel fanciful mental image that never got built. Do you know that there are no biblical mentioning and no archaeological findings of both Nebuchadnezzar II built "the Hanging Gardens" and a built Tower of Babel, hmm?

You are a one trick pony, the only bible verse trick, you know how to do, is Genesis 11:5. Smh.

Are you aware that according to Babylonian literature, the city of Babel aka Babylon was built by lesser deities, unlike what the bible says, that it was built by sons of man, hmmm?

I am not the least bothered if you dont feel like fact-checking the meaning of the Hebrew word "amar" but I will once again draw your attention to Genesis 11:8-9, to see how only the city that was already in construction was mentioned but not this alleged structurally built tower. I should nudge you on Genesis 11:6 too, but hey, why bother, when I know, you have enough on plate already to grapple with

Where in the Bible, is this Tower of Babel stele mentioned, hmm? Or you are depending on them unreliable antiquities collector(s) and the "Migdal Bavel" fake news, abi? (i.e. Norwegian antiquities collector Martin Schøyen) Do you think fake news, only started during the advent of Trump ni?

Genesis 11:5 out it out that the tower has already been built.

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Meaning they have united, in one tongue, and have done this. With that tower built in one term, there is nothing else they set their mind they would succeed upon. God has moved on from the temple and now on what they would do in future.


And errrrm, didn't the bible said Cyrus declarations freed Israelites and permitted them to build their temple? Well archaeology found the Cyrus cylinder and found out the bible claim was lie. Bible too dey lie... That is just a piece from the heaps of lie archaeology have unrooted

Csonice1:
Let me establish a few points here.
Life is given; even Eve knows more than you on that topic (genesis4). if you were to be on a life support, you have to be very, very arrogant if you don't acknowledge the provision of anyone who could pay for whatever it takes to keep you alive. Your success was only possible because he/she was there for you.

A young man was called upon to honour those who were behind his success and he said(fuming angrily) :
"Dad, mum, you have no hand in my success, all you did for me was to give birth to me, cater for my basic needs, buy books for me, take me to school, help me with topics that I could not understand in class, (in other words you did all that good parents do for their children) but you neglected one part; you didn't write the exam for me! I wrote it myself.... I will not acknowledge your...!!
(The principal took the mic from him and apologized to the audience: perhaps the euphoria has gotten into the poor child's brain)

God has always been faithful on His own part; and has failed in none. The problem is the stiff-necked character of those who don't love him.

It takes great understanding to give Glory to God. David walked in this dimension, from the killing of the bear, lion, Goliath, and his victories in life, even his offering: and God rewarded him for it.

1Chronicles29:11-16
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.
16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own."

In later in history; ancient Babylonia we see a man, nebucadnezzer, who did not Glorify God; making the same mistake of humanity in Genesis11:1-9, we all know what happened to him.(read Daniel4)


I didn't expect you to be offended either, but to be enlightened. In as much as I have to be modest, I also have to be honest.
A man went drunk to a feast of people of great authority, power, wealth and influence. He didn't go there to rejoice with them that celebrate but to ignorantly throw accusations at the hosts ; they could have done worse to him but they said" all that we've been saying are not understood by him, for he is drunk and doesn't know what he is doing.let's gently lead him outside the gate"
When the man stood up @ the gate he said " I've been doing this for so long... we don see plenty"
How funny!


Firstly, I thought I said "start from Genesis1" not read only Genesis1.(well I will still check to make sure)
God's plan for humanity was blessing; multiplication and dominion; infact he put them in the best place ever, they failed him but he still had mercy on those who turned to him;and humbled those who are lawless
by thwarting their plans ( so that they won't ask: why didn't He stop us? Since,He has foresight and power and we were ignorant).

Humanly speaking; only one natural disaster can wipe off your entire model city dwellers.
However, God has no business with your city dwelling theory, it makes no difference where you live.
They we're not the first to build cities neither were they the last. Cain built; he was not queried for it, David, Solomon, Hezekiah, etc even today.
I think humans can do better than wandering like animals; because they aren't animals; but the image of God in wisdom: they've already proven to you that they can do better than what you think; their destiny is not to lurk in an archaic ziggurat.
If it was space exploration that they were after as you claim, a wise man could have told them to explore the Earth first; they don't know anything about the Earth and they are talking about astronomy. They were like an ignorant man kept in a room furnished and nice, but his ambition kept him oblivious of his own home and got him jumping accross the neighbors fence. What he was going to steal was not the problem; he may not even steal enough to make him rich. But his ingratitude needs to be corrected.



Biblical genealogies are like separate books on their own, they are focused and not limited by events recorded in other chapters.While Genesis5 went back to CHAPTER1, Genesis10 went far into chapter 11. [ If what you mean is that all events in Chapter10 happened before chapter11; you might as well read 1chronicles3 & CHAPTER4.]. Let me also establish that Genesis11:1-9 is like a flash back, a reminder of why things are the way they are; and in verse 10 genealogy continues; a lot more detailed,traced down from shem(10:21) to Abraham
Now, concerning multiplication and dominion: you have no part in this. No knowledge whatsoever, even scientifically speaking (genetics to be precise). Neither do you have the knowledge of the spiritual.

I have told you the problem with their ambition; I don't think it's necessary to repeat it again. However note this;
Cain and Abel sacrificed, but only one pleased God; through faith, pure motive, and to the Glory of God.

Hahahaha

Now address the question without telling me moonlight tales why should God be given glory for what he didn't do by himself? It's like giving the glory for inventing airplane to God, when in fact, it is the Wright brothers who designed and innovated airplane.

Secondly, these people wanted to become city dwellers but God wanted them to wander around like animals in the bush. Is it God idea that human should live in isolation?

Please answer these two questions as a gentle man with few words

MuttleyLaff:
What we needed to know/see about tower, whether it really was structurally or physically built, was revealed in Genesis 11:8-9, so just follow me through to the end, as I'll explain.

Now here are the cogent points FOLYKAZE:
1/ Isn't it ironic that neither you and jamesid29 have come back, to say if or not, you're familiar with the Hebrew word "amar"
2/ Isn't it strange, that if your answer was to #1 above, then why couldn't either of youse convey in words what "amar" means then?
3/ I am a honourable man, my word is gold. I promised that for every bible verse text you posit, I would counter with stronger bible text, that shows that no physical structure tower was built. This I intend to do and/or make sure I deliver on my word

You made a feeble attempt of providing bible text that largely, plus clearly states and done in detail, leaving no room, for confusion, guessing or doubt, that a physical structure tower was built. Your proof is a sorry looking at Genesis 11:5. The thing is had it being you and jamesid27 havent buried your heads in the sand, over the meaning and/or implication of the word "amar" as if like ostriches, you both wouldn't be enjoying a mutual masturbation and prolonged incongruous ridiculous and wildly unreasonable activity moved into the realms of fantasy on steroids

If you keep shading and indirectly sending away every person who challenges you, you will never grow. Some very few people, are in your life to sharpen you, but don't because someone is fanning your fantasy, make a very wrong person, your ally and/or best friend!

4/ Now here is the thing FOLYKAZE, I am a very coherent person, and so I am fully aware that inconsistency is a disorderly representation of a set of associated elements. Biblical consistency is very important, especially for an astute and ardent person who is a stickler to 2 Timothy 2:15

"³ And they said (i.e. ''amar'') one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
⁴ And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
⁵ And the Lord came down to see the city and a tower,, which the children of men builded.
⁶ And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
⁷ Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
⁸ So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city (i.e. but unmistakably no mention of left off building a tower)
⁹ Therefore is the name of it called Babel; (i.e. the city but not the tower, also no mention again of tower) because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."
- Genesis 11:3-9

The Bible follows the definition and rule of consistency in writing. You posited Genesis 11:5, I will add Genesis 11:4 to help you make up the consistency, now here is the clincher and me making good on my word, to counter whatever you bring forward, and that which I bring, is Genesis 11:8-9. As a clever, smart and cerebral person that you are FOLYKAZE, you would have thought something significant, audacious, bold, impressive in appearance, an eye-catching, spectacular, and imposing structure tower would merit a consistent mentioning in the winding down closing moments of the narrative, but alas, no it doesnt. What do we have FOLYKAZE?. What we have, is an inconsistency of a set of associated elements. The tower was not mentioned ever, going forward of Genesis 11:4-5, because just as I had from the onset advanced, it was a thought, that never saw the light of day, talkless had the chance to get feet off the ground and be built. God didnt waste time in scuttling the plan of building the accursed tower. The inconsistency is evident in Genesis 11:8-9. The silence of not mentioning the tower, speaks volume and corroborates the fact that it wasn't built.

Notice in Genesis 11:8, that city is mentioned, but unmistakably, no mention of left off building a tower. Also notice in Genesis 11:9, its the city, that is called Babel, not the tower, and also, no mention again, of tower. Very inconsistent indeed and not stating the same set of associated elements throughout. This is for a very good reason, because the tower was not physically built.[/size]

No, not all, you havent in the least served or offended me, but all you and jamesid29 are doing, is just playing to your fantasies, whims and caprices. I am sorry if either of youse are offended at me, for being blunt and not calling a spade a hoe, so pardon me FOLYKAZE, for using your "it is what it is" catchphrase

Once again Muttley, please you need to take verbal abuses away from your posts. Be cool! You weren't like this before.


Back to your response. According to the Tower of Babel stele, Nebuchadnezzar II, maybe after God dispersed them or physically damaged from past wars, expanded and completed the tower. That tower of babel of then is now known as Etemenanki.

Without mincing words, Etemenanki was a physical structure according to Gen 11:5

jamesid29:
Ha, I see where some of the misunderstandings comes from;Because of the statement of heaven and earth. The thing is your thinking of it through the lens of a 21st century person. Ancient people had a different understanding of what that means... Its a different rabbit hole though.
Hope some of this materials might help..
https://bibleproject.com/explore/heaven-earth/
https://youtu.be
A very short video but this guys are quite good in compressing good scholarly work into 6min videos.
Also, the book(Lambert's) I mentioned in the other post drills down into.

Chief, una go dey pay me for the video links una dey drop here. I mean, it has no correlation with Etemenanki. It only mention that temple is the link between heaven and earth. Astronomy, as Etemenanki is concerned has to do with planet, stars, galaxy, moon and cosmos.

jamesid29:
I've read them but I do not see any mention of the ziggurats being places for astronomical work.
They are just talking about how versed the Babylonians were in astrology and stuff, which is something well attested for in many ancient documents. Matter of fact Pythagoras theorem was developed in mesopotamia long before Pythagoras discovered. Its just a modern conception that ancient people were dumb cavemen, but nothing is further from the truth. Our brains are the same and they did alot of amazing things that still stumps us till date.
But again, we are talking about two different things.

You didn't read it too well.

This is what he said below:

After this she built in the centre of the city a temple of Zeus whom, as we have said, the Babylonians call Belus. Now since with regard to this temple the historians are at variance, and since time has caused the structure to fall into ruins, it is impossible to give the exact facts concerning it. But all agree that it was exceedingly high, and that in it the Chaldaeans made their observations of the stars, whose risings and settings could be accurately observed by reason of the height of the structure

jamesid29:
Well it's connected connected to the story. Its another design pattern of the Bible... the scholarly term is called intertextuality but I prefer to call them hyperlinks because they work like webpage links. Basically the biblical authors use certain words or string of ideas that hyperlink you to another part of the Bible and it keeps going back and forth. The thing is we usually tend to miss them because we were not taught how to parse them. Basically the Bible is one unified story from genesis to revelation ultimately pointing to Jesus.
In this case Deut 32:8 hyperlinks to Gen 11, then a couple of hyperlinks go throughout the Bible till we land at Acts 3 and the Pentecost story(which was basically the reversing of what happened in Gen 11).
Actually one of the reasons I'm rarely post is because when I think of all the matrix of ideas that needs to be written to drill down into giving an answer, I go just tire.
Like I mentioned before, the Bible is simple enough that even a child can read it and get the main idea and come to salvation but at the same time complex enough that you can spend a full year on just a couple of verses... I know of a lady whose entire theises was on just a one verse of the Bible "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain".
Personally I don't know of any connection between Deut 32 and Ugaritic text though. Maybe you can pass along some sources

Haaaaaa

Deut 32:8
The unrevised text would have read thus:
בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם בְּהַפְרִידֹו בְּנֵי אָדָם
יַצֵּב גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי שֹׁר־אֵל
וַיְהִי חֵלֶק יהוה עַמֹּו יַעֲקֹב חֶבֶל נַחֲלָתֹו
When Elyon gave the nations an inheritance,
when he divided humankind,
he set the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of El’s children,
and Yahweh’s portion was his people,
Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.

That verse shows clearly that when human were evolving, Gods too were not excluded. Jehovah is the son of El, the supreme God of canaanites. He inherited Israel, not an original owner from El. The Urgarit text exposes that large parts of the bible is copied from ancient civilizations like Canaan and others.

Read more abeg

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm
https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm

jamesid29:
I'm not sure what you mean here

The Bible spearhead propaganda against Babylon, Canaan and other ancient civilizations. It did this through falsehood, exaggerations, and expansion of unfounded fallacy.

jamesid29:
Conclusion: The believe that the temple and ziggurat of Babylon were created at the beginning of history lent them a mythological status. Enuma Elish presents the ziggurat and temple at the center of the universe lying between heaven and earth. Similar cosmic view of this also appears in other mesopotamia text like the other two I gave and some other priestly literatures. The name of the ziggurat alone Etemenanki: "THE FOUNDATION OF HEAVEN AND EARTH" already tells you that in the ancient Babylonian mind, this is the place where heaven and earth meets. This is where God's space and man's space intersect... It doesn't get more spiritual than that.

Thanks for the brilliant inputs sir. But sincerely, they really do not address my stance. If you may have forgotten sir, I stated that there is no evidence of spiritual significance of Etemenanki. And Esagali is the only shrine where occultic activities, worship of Marduk and his consort, and rituals take place. You've agreed that Esagali is the shrine, and that there is no shrine in Etemenanki. I said, "The absence of evidence, signifying that Marduk is worshipped in Etemenanki stamped down all spiritual attributions to the tower. If you are concluding there is a spiritual significance to that tower, tell us firstly what you meant by spiritual significance, also tell us with evidences if there are shrines on the tower.

All the three so called evidences you presented arr misleading. As a matter of fact, it doesn't prove Marduk is worshipped on the tower. The Tower does not hold Marduk's images, none is sacrifices done on it.

1. I have the pdf copy of the Enuma Elish, translated by Benjamin R Foster. I read a volume yesterday night before I slept off.

Tablet IV, volume III, line 40-65
(Marduk divides the gods of heaven and netherworld. The gods build Esagila, Marduk's temple in Babylon)

To Marduk their Lord they said,
"Now, Lord, you who have liberated us,
" What courtesy may we do you?
"We will make a shrine, whose name will be a byword,
"Your chamber that shall be our stopping place,
We shall find rest therein.
"We shall lay out the shrine, let us see up its emplacement,
" When we come (to visit you), we shall find rest therein"
When Marduk heard this,
His features glowed brightly, like the day.
"Then made Babylon the task that you requested,
" Let its brickwork be found, build high the shrine"
The Anunna-gods set to with hoes,
One (full) year they made the bricks.
When the second year come,
They raised the head of Esagila¹, the counterpart of Apsu
They built the upper Ziggurat of Apsu²

i. Wordplay on the name of Marduk's temple (House whose head is high)
ii. Esagila is therefore a counterpart or replica of the abode of Ea (Apsu) and the abode of Enhil. (https://lucian.uchicago.edu/blogs/csar/files/2011/03/Seri-Enuma-elish.pdf)


a. In the translation you posted and another translation I posted above, Etemenanki was not mentioned.

b. The title tells us about the body of the poem, Marduk divides the gods, the gods built Esagila. It never mention Etemenanki

c. The first emboldened statement indicates the Shrine, Esagila was proposed to be high. Not too high as a tower, but higher than normal low level structures.

d. The second emboldened statement tells us that the head of Esagila was raised high, and as such was called Ziggurat . Ziggurat implies a massive structure with a successively receding stories or levels. Calling Esagila Ziggurat doesn't make it Etemenanki.

e. The footnote (²), tells that the Ziggurat mentioned in Enuma Elish is Esagila. If it was Etemenanki, it would have been mentioned in the footnote.

f. Enuma Elish didnt mention "a tower with its top to heaven", it simply says the gods raised the top of Esagila. Since it tops doesn't reach heaven, it is not Etemenanki.



2. TOWER OF BABEL STELE doesn't specifically mentioned the spiritual significance of Etemenanki. I have read the complete details of the text on Schoyen Collection website still nothing speaks about Etemenanki been the worship centre of or serving as a shrine for Marduk.

https://www.schoyencollection.com/history-collection-introduction/babylonian-history-collection/tower-babel-stele-ms-2063


3. Nothing in the Esagila tablet indicates the spiritual significance of the Etemenanki. The tablet can be divided into two. One part is about Esagila (the temple of the god Marduk in Babylon) recorded by the scribes are two courtyards built earlier than the temple. The rest of the tablet concerns the ziggurat, Etemenanki, and is extremely valuable for its reconstruction, presenting a complex mathematical analysis of how the tower should be.

https://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/esagila-tablet

Please sir, You had wanted me to see spiritual significance of Etemenanki, when there is none. Even in your presented "evidences", there is no enough convincing evidence to prove that Etemenanki serves as shrine, or worship centre of Marduk. There is no evidence of spiritual significance of the tower. The absence of evidence, signifying that Marduk is worshipped in Etemenanki stamped down all spiritual attributions to the tower.

jamesid29:
Ok so, a couple of things we have to correct here.
1) The temple and ziggurat are inextricably linked. You can't have a ziggurat without a temple.
2)The temple and ziggurat was not built by Esarhaddon. In the Babylonian conception, this was done by the gods at the dawn of history but in reality it's safe to push them to the time of Hammurabi(1792-1750 BC). It was built upon by later kings, destroyed by rival nations, rebuilt by subsequent kings up until the time of Nebuchadnezzar II(who finished the enlargement and restoration work after 43yrs), and it was destroyed again after him around 538 BC. Alexander the Great wanted to rebuild it but he kinda made things worse because he took down the entire structure but never got to the rebuilding part.
3) Etemenanki was connected with Esagila by a triple gate. A larger gate in the east connected the Etemenanki with the sacred procession road(all this is confirmed by archeological works). I was very careful about my language in my previous post so you don't conflat my words. If you check my post, I was always specific that the ziggurat was part of the temple complex... Because it's usually a complex and not just one building.

Firstly please let's have the picture of Etemenanki and Esagila here
[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSAzF8cytHLEyCydU-dhY0_5wAXRwlEFcUFsQ&usqp=CAU.jpg[/img]

1&3. From the picture, Etemenanki is the huge structure, and Esaliga is that little high building adjacent of the tower by the south. There is a stair from the Tower leading to Esaliga. Another stair leads to the large procession pathway. However, they are both standalone structure. Though connected, the Shrine is not inside or on top of Etemenanki.

2. Esarhaddon also known as Asarhaddon claimed he built Esagila, and his claim was corroborated with the writings on the wall of the shrine, as found by Stefan Maul. http://prelectur.stanford.edu/lecturers/maul/ancientcapitals.html

His claim that he built Esagila can be found in the decree he made below
"Great king, mighty monarch, lord of all, king of the land of Assur, ruler of Babylon, faithful shepherd, beloved of Marduk, lord of lords, dutiful leader, loved by Marduk’s Consort Zurpanitum, humble, obedient, full of praise for their strength and awestruck from his earliest days in the presence of their divine greatness [am I, Esarhaddon]. When in the reign of an earlier king there were ill omens, the city offended its gods and was destroyed at their command. It was me, Esarhaddon, whom they chose to restore everything to its rightful place, to calm their anger, to assuage their wrath. You, Marduk, entrusted the protection of the land of Assur to me. The Gods of Babylon meanwhile told me to rebuild their shrines and renew the proper religious observances of their palace, Esagila. I called up all my workmen and conscripted all the people of Babylonia. I set them to work, digging up the ground and carrying the earth away in baskets (Kerrigan, 34).
https://www.ancient.eu/Esarhaddon/

He is also known as the restorer of Esagila
https:///32gpz5Z

jamesid29:
2) Diodorus lived in the 30's BC, 100s of years after the ziggurat has been destroyed. If we can't trust what Herodotus who lived when the temple tower was still standing says, we wouldn't trust Diodurus who lived long after it was destroyed. We don't have any ancient source that attest to it (and we have alot of ancient literatures)

This isn't about the person of Diodorus, but much about his writings about the astronomical values of the tower.

He wrote:
After this she built in the centre of the city a temple of Zeus whom, as we have said, the Babylonians call Belus. Now since with regard to this temple the historians are at variance, and since time has caused the structure to fall into ruins, it is impossible to give the exact facts concerning it. But all agree that it was exceedingly high, and that in it the Chaldaeans made their observations of the stars, whose risings and settings could be accurately observed by reason of the height of the structure

The emboldened justify my stand that the tower aided astronomy and space exploration.

Judybash93:
Sex on the moon might not be the most enjoyable experience due to less gravity i presume.

We have zero gravity Chambers on earth, we can also build gravity chamber on the moon.