₦airaland Forum

@ Alexleo,

alexleo: And if there is any good thing that i ll say you,Frosbel, did for me, it is dragging me out of Churchianity and i thank you for that. If you check my post in recent past i dont talk much about my church, my church. Its now more about Jesus. Why? Remember you ve always mentioned to me in some of my posts to concentrate on Jesus than church traditions. Do you know why i accepted your message? CONVICTION BY THIS SAME HOLY SPIRIT AM TELLING YOU ABOUT AND YOU ARE TRYING TO DRAG ME AWAY FROM HIM. NO BROS. Honestly am grateful to you for dragging me out of churchianity and i can tell you am also dragging people in my church out of it now in my own branch. Three weeks ago, in one of our meetings i stood up and spoke against this my church, my church mentality in our church and told them to remember its all about JESUS and not church. By the time i finished, come and see people agreeing with what i said. YOU, FROSBEL SPOKE THIS WORDS TO ME, THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVINCED ME THAT TRULY ITS ALL ABOUT JESUS. NOW, YOU VE SPOKEN THIS ONE AND AM TELLING YOU THAT I HAVE NO CONVICTION TO STOP IT. THEN LEAVE IT AT THAT. THANKS MY BROTHER.

In the light of what i ve said, pls note that whenever am discussing with you or anybody here am not doing it on the platform of my church. This also does not mean that i hate my church or am trying to be a rebel there. GOD FORBID.

I gave my endorsement as one of the 'likes' you see on this your comment but giving it a second thought. You're right at one angle about the Spirit of God convincing you to follow after non-tithing for Christians BUT on the other angle\thought, I feel I should say this to you seeing you're my good brother and friend. You've also being a source of inspiration to me also reading some of your post here, God bless you for sharing with me\us.

However, the truth is, The Spirit of God doesn't contradict the word of God he authored. The Spirit of God uses the word to guide and lead us into all truth. The word of God itself is truth, John 17:17 and Christ said, the Spirit of truth will guide you into ALL truth, John 16:13 - what that simply means is that, the Spirit of God will use the word of God, which is truth and which he authored as a platform\foundation to guide you\us into all the truth he was meant to guide us into.

We're not to go against what is written or go beyond what is written for us, especially in the dispensation of the New Testament that we belong. There's a pattern of giving in the New Testament scriptures - it must not be of force or of necessity or grudgingly or out of compulsion and it does not include tithe\tithing for Christians. I will like you to re-visit this topic in your diligent and personal study and allow the Spirit of God guide you using the word. You will come to find out, giving according to the order of Grace is more blessing than tithing according to the order of the law and I hope, one day, you will be grateful to God I gave you this advice for more studying the subject.

God bless you brother.

oiseworld: Thank God you added the bolded, but u forgot to say the spirit of God in you is the paramount. Even the devil knows and understands the Bible in and out;page by page cover to cover.

Knowing the bible is one, gettig an understanding through the spirit is another and the key Thing.

i believe the young man at that point was carried away by the spirit of God and he gave all he had.

Wrong sir! The Spirit of God doesn't contradict the word he authored. The Spirit of God uses the word to guide and lead us into all truth. The word itself is truth, John 17:17 and Christ said, the Spirit of truth will guide you into ALL truth, John 16:13; what that simply means is that, the Spirit of God will use the word, which is truth to guide you\us. We're not to go against what is written or go beyond what is written for us, especially in the dispensation of the New Testament that we belong. There's a pattern of giving in the scriptures - it must not be of force or of necessity or grudgingly or out of compulsion.

@ Bidam, Image123 and Other Tithe Teachers,

Feel free to refute my exposition\explanation on 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. Especially you, Bidam, because it's one of your favourite scriptures you lift out of context and want to force 'tithe' into the context. I dey here full ground for you\una.

Alwaystrue: @Goshen again with semantics,
When you said 'Given that it is true Jesus approved tithe.' and you gave a bonus what did you mean?

See as you try to make everything complex because you fail to admit you said Christ endorsed tithe.

Are you sure you read whatever people write or you just pick whatever suits you or whatever you wanna hear. You must read everything everyone says if you have time and want to make a meaningful teachings\reasoning the word of God. I have answered you already what I meant by that statement but you didn't read it and here is the quote again,

Goshen360: @ Alwaystrue & Everyone,...a must read though a little lengthy

This is how you misunderstood my post and term it to me I said Jesus endorsed tithing and I accepted it. Thank God you quoted me and it's written in black and white. I said "GIVEN THAT...". That is, assuming it is so, and under what circumstance did he endorsed it? Do you call that endorsement even though it is clear he was rebuking and pronouncing woe on the scribes and pharisees? Was he talking to his disciples and the church under that circumstance? Like someone did, lemme put that verse, Matthew 23:23 in proper perspective for you to see,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees CHURCH OF CHRIST hypocrites!, for CHURCH OF CHRIST hypocrites! pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

How does that sound to you, Jesus was talking to the church right? and the church are hypocrites? The context of Matthew 23 in verse 1-3 had Jesus already told HIS DISCIPLES NOT TO DO ACCORDING TO THE WORKS OR PRACTICES OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES....that includes their tithing. That's why you never read Jesus taught tithing to his disciples and neither did the disciples taught it to the church.

You ONLY picked where I replaced the scribes & pharisees FOR the church of Christ, hypocrites and I did that to let you see how it looks like were it that Jesus was talking to the Apostles. Also, I showed you the leaven of the pharisees that Jesus SPECIFICALLY warned his Apostles about was same HYPOCRISY.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Luke 12:1

Every time Jesus talks or teaches his disciples, it is ALWAYS stated in scriptures. The reason is so we don't mix things up as some does. Therefore, Jesus could not and clearly wasn't addressing the Apostles in that context of Matthew 23:23 because he already SPOKE to them to beware of the leaven of the pharisees, which is HYPOCRISY and Christ also 'first' talked to his disciples in Matthew 23:1-2 before addressing the scribes and pharisees from verse 10 or so, in Matthew 23.

So, if you tithe teachers are saying Christ was talking to the disciples or Apostles or the Church in that context, then add Luke 12:1 and substitute like I did and see how it reads. Allow scripture to interpret scriptures and you won't fall into errors. You said, leaven of the pharisee is following the letters of the law rather than the spirit and intent behind the law of Moses BUT clearly, scriptures tells us what the leaven of the pharisee is.

@ Alwaystrue

Alwaystrue: You amaze me Goshen. When Jesus told the Pharisees to have mercy and faith, it means it is not applicable to Christians right? Infact when he was talking to other people under the law then He was not talking to Christians as well? Based on Goshen's interpretation? Jesus who came to give the right interpretation to the law?
Then next thing when you run around and confuse yourself you will say Christ was still under the law hence all he said is meant for the time of the law.

Is that what the Cambridge version of the bible said? 'Church of Christ hypocrites'? So you now substitute the word of Jesus Christ all in your defense not tithe, common tenth? Amazing!

It has all been explained to you, you refuse to see past the letter of the law. That is why you cannot answer simple questions.

I'm sorry, you have a long way to go in studying the scriptures. I'm very sorry to tell you that, if I offend you by that statement, forgive me.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are NOT the New Testament. They're The Gospels. It records the life, history, teachings and ministry of Christ. The New Testament began AFTER the CROSS and the Old Testament ended at the CROSS of CHRIST. Jesus was born and raised under the law; the law of Moses was still in effect during his days and that's why he said he came to FULFILL THE LAW. When Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, it became ABOLISHED thereafter. What is FULfilled is abolished.

New International Version (©2011)
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Galatians 4:4

New International Version (©2011)
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace. Ephesians 2:15


What you see Jesus doing in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is he came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, SETTING FOUNDATION FOR THE NEW TESTAMENT by teaching the Apostles teachings\things that will take effect AFTER his death - hence, the need to choose 12 Apostles to teach, train and empower them to carry on.

New International Version (©2011)
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Ephesians 2:20

If you don't know this basics, then, I have a lot of work to do on you....no wonder you're holding on the law of Moses or some parts of it. Lemme give you an example of how Christ is setting foundation that carried into the New Testament in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44[b]But I tell you[/b], love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5 >> New International Version

Many examples you will see in same manner in Matthew 5 - You have heard BUT I say.....changing the order from what you have heard TO what I say. You law keepers say he was showing the true intent. What does that mean? How does it parallel together? You have heard BUT I say....meaning, what I say NOW is what is applicable, NOT what was said in the law of Moses. If Christ was showing the real intent of the law? Where is what he, CHRIST says NOW when he said "BUT I SAY" written in the law of Moses?

You need to understand Christ was laying foundational teachings even though he was still under the law but he had to be born into that law of Moses to fulfill it and then when he fulfilled it, the law of Moses came to an end and the Apostles carried on Christ's foundational teachings - my dear, TITHE WASN'T INCLUDED IN CHRIST'S TEACHING TO THE APOSTLES THAT CARRIED UNTO THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT STARTED AFTER THE DEATH OF CHRIST.

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Alwaystrue: Please answer my question on bestilaity and let me see what you can offer.

You're yet to fully grasp the treasures of the New Testament.....I can understand it's because you're still mixing it with the leaven of the law of Moses. By the way, on the other thread of Christemmbassey for Abraham not the father of Christians, you mentioned leaven of the pharisees and asked Image123 to explain - leaven of the pharisees is simple hypocrites. You now see why Christ wasn't talking to the disciples when I substituted the scribe & pharisees for the "Church of Christ as hypoctites"? You see it doesn't fit that Christ was talking to his disciples\Apostles? The context says it in scriptures not me. And as for the Cambridge stuff, you should know it was the Online version of the KJV I quoted, no big deal about that as long as it is same words of KJV.

On bestiality, I answered also but maybe you missed it because you're busy with this tithe matters. Anyways, I do not support bestiality in any form neither does the Bible support it, not in the spirit of the Old Testament though. Now, what is bestiality involved? Simple....a sex.ual act right? But in this case, se.xual act with animals. Therefore, if it falls within the scope of all sex.ual sins mentioned in scriptures in the New Testament, it becomes a sin to God and animal right violation. Here is it,

New Living Translation (©2007)
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

You\people MUST understand the Apostle Paul NEVER mention ALL the sins in the world BUT he says...."and other sins like these....anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God". Does bestiality falls into the category of SINS and SEXUAL IMMORALITY? If it does as it does, it means what it means - those who practice such or live such sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Sure I have answered your question.

^ ^ ^ In the mouth of two or three witnesses, every truth shall be established. Jesus did that, where is it that Christians should do that?....do you have scriptures for that for Christians?

@ Alwaystrue & Everyone,...a must read though a little lengthy

Alwaystrue: I said Jesus endorsed tithe and you accepted that, so that is where you said it, I had a vague idea you said that before I posted my comment....If you cannot understand this simply even with Jesus endorsement of tithe despite your acceptance, the issue will keep oscillating.

This is how you misunderstood my post and term it to me I said Jesus endorsed tithing and I accepted it. Thank God you quoted me and it's written in black and white. I said "GIVEN THAT...". That is, assuming it is so, and under what circumstance did he endorsed it? Do you call that endorsement even though it is clear he was rebuking and pronouncing woe on the scribes and pharisees? Was he talking to his disciples and the church under that circumstance? Like someone did, lemme put that verse, Matthew 23:23 in proper perspective for you to see,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees CHURCH OF CHRIST hypocrites!, for CHURCH OF CHRIST hypocrites! pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

How does that sound to you, Jesus was talking to the church right? and the church are hypocrites? The context of Matthew 23 in verse 1-3 had Jesus already told HIS DISCIPLES NOT TO DO ACCORDING TO THE WORKS OR PRACTICES OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES....that includes their tithing. That's why you never read Jesus taught tithing to his disciples and neither did the disciples taught it to the church.

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Alwaystrue: There is nothing like poles apart, you refuse to see it because you keep holding to the letter of the law. Abraham understood the intent of tithe even before the law came to be, Jesus never condemned it despite the fact he spoke about true interpretation of the law in many instances on adultery, sabath, almsgiving, honour to parents; even you accepted that in your very own quote above; Paul understood the principle too and quoted the very law you said is done away with because he knew the essence and the law of the spirit:

I Corinthians 9:3-4,8,11,13-14
3  This is my [real ground of] defense (my vindication of myself) to those who would put me on trial and cross-examine me. 4  Have we not the right to our food and drink [at the expense of the churches]?

8  Do I say this only on human authority and as a man reasons? Does not the Law endorse the same principle?

11  If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?

13-14 13  Do you not know that those men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]? 14  [On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel.


II Corinthians 11:8
Other churches I have robbed by accepting [more than their share of] support for my ministry [from them in order] to serve you.

You've been going about on this thread saying Jesus ENDORSED tithing and Paul also taught it to Christians. THAT'S A BIG ERROR YOU ARE DOING TO THE WORD OF GOD. Also, you've been going about on this thread spreading scriptures from the above, in 1 Corinthians 9 and trying to FORCE tithe into that text EVEN THOUGH IT IS CLEAR TITHE WASN'T MENTIONED THERE. Lemme break down those scriptures for you & everyone to see\read:

Whenever the Old Testament and\or a person is quoted in the New Testament, you MUST UNDERSTAND every scriptures quoted from that Old or person MUST remain in it's ORIGINAL context; otherwise, there will be 'private' interpretation. Whenever the Old is quoted in the New, we must return to the original context where quoted FROM in order to properly apply where quoted in the New Testament. This is one of the evidence of consistency that makes Genesis agree with Revelation. What is Apostle saying here?

First, he (Apostle Paul) quoted and made reference to:

1. "THOSE who minister about holy things\they who wait at the altar are partakers with the altar" (verse 13 of 1 Corinthians 9) referring to the Levites\priests\Aaron.....through tithes & perhaps offerings. This was specified under the law of Moses.

Apostle Paul also made reference to:

2. "THEY or THOSE who preach the gospel should live of the gospel" that was ordained by Christ himself (verse 14). Now, we already know how "THOSE who minister about holy things\they who wait at the altar are partakers with the altar" often live of the things of the temple ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES.....through tithes & offerings.....which are MAINLY FOOD, NOT MONEY!

Hence, we have two (2) GROUPS here...in parallel comparison namely: 1. "THOSE who minister about holy things\they who wait at the altar" AND 2. THEY or THOSE who preach the gospel.

Therefore, we MUST know or find out, HOW THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ALSO ORDAINED FOR THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO LIVE OF THE GOSPEL since we already know or are told how those who minister about holy things\they who wait at the altar live of things of the "temple", bearing in mind WE, CHRISTIANS ARE NOW THE TEMPLE OF GOD.....is it also through tithe & offerings? Let's find out and expose those who force 'tithe' into what Christ ordianed in verse 14 even though Paul did not 'specifically' mentioned 'tithe'. If Christ and Paul never taught tithe\tithing to Apostles\Christians, how could he have meant it was through tithe that those who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel.

Luke 10 >> King James Bible

1After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Here, when you return to HOW THE LORD ORDAINED THAT THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL SHOULD LIVE OF THE GOSPEL, we will understand the truth without distorting God's word, that Christ said, "AS THEY GIVE...AS SET BEFORE YOU". The NIV translation says, "eating and drinking whatever they give you....eat what is set before you". This is the context of the word of Christ that Paul quoted. Those who force their interpretation into this context to mean or say what the text\context does not say are simply distorting the truth. It was a parallel comparison that Apostle Paul made between those of Old and those who Christ ordained. Those of Old lived of things of the old does not = those of new MUST follow same, those of New follow what the Lord ordained. For the priesthood (OF OLD) being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:12

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Alwaystrue: You have two unanswered questions:
1. Why will you circumcise your sons?

2. What do you see about bestiality (sex with animals)? Is it wrong or right and why?

I have answered your question on circumcision and on bestiality, like I said, you keep holding to the law of Moses and don't see all these things in the New Testament. You have to keep many other laws of Moses if you're holding to it. Well, I'm not surprised though, statistics shows over 90% of world Christians are either law of Moses keeper or they mix some part and leave the rest not fully a Grace and New Testament Christians.

^ ^

Joel, what kind of message is this please?

This bros, Image123 dey vex o. Chei, you go fear epistle according to Saint Image123 naw.

^ ^ ....and the same Church(es) will not take contributions FOR THE SAINTS who are poor in their midst as stated in scriptures. Abeg make I go work and make me some money before I go late in the name of tithe. I will come back and finish the tearing down of tithe doctrine for Christians.

Image123: who is daring to call my father a goat and me a cow in the name of analogy? This is terrible and i demand an apology.

You berrer go and learn proper English. When them call your papa goat and you are cow. How about Behold the LAMB (Christ) of God that take away the sin of the world? Is Christ then a lamb? Abeg go sidon abi you just dey come finish your trolling job you started ni?

Alwaystrue: @Goshen

Being like Christ is a continuous process. Did you notice the twice spoken word there? THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT? When you understand that you will understand all said so far.

Do you see anything wrong on bestiality? If you do or don't why?


Yes, you got it that the essense of the tithe was to sustain the levites who were the ministers of the temple and that is what tithe does today for those who preach the gospel. It is for their upkeep to encourage them in their ministry and for their service and Paul used the OT to explain this even though Christ still endorsed it and you have accepted that. Even Paul expected wages from the Corinth church when he said he robbed other churches to do them service.

You have still not told me why you will circumsize your sons. You only said you are not doing it according to the law of Moses which I agree so why do you do it? Tradition of men?

In the highlight of the above, you completely missed the point. Paul NEVER endorsed tithe neither did Christ. I will further explain that verse. There are TWO poles away from each other. I do not have much time for for now but will come back later to deal with this from the verse you're referring to. I never accepted Paul said that neither did I accepted that. You can quote me where I accepted it if I actually did or you go back to read what I said.

You will see there're two different poles being used in comparison by Paul and NEVER mentioned tithe at all, it's you tithe teachers that are reading 'tithe' into that passage. A careful examination says otherwise. Think about it, everywhere tithe was instructed, it was clearly mentioned, why then would Paul endorse tithe without mentioning tithe?

I will be right back.

Ubenedictus: wu b the guy?? No put me for trouble oh!

^ Abeg leaf story for story tellers. You sabi the 'guy' and me know the guy too much. Any thread I enter, you will always see him there.....but the guy like tithe too much o. You dey get the gist?

Ubenedictus: a response that is significantly different from the question. I'll ask again, is abraham the father of christian as regards to faith? yes or no, will suffice!

....please underline "as regards to faith".....Bros, you just wan hammer this my brother to reverse his statement sha. You wicked small o

Ubenedictus: thats goshen for you, after he endorse, he modifies, you just gat to love d guy

^ ^ ^ Yeah, I dey feel you bros. At least, you no be like some wey I know their names for this forum but they are my best friend o wey dem go modify first before them endorse You sabi who I dey talk about shey? No be my mouth you go hear the 'guy' name o

Alwaystrue: Now that I had answered your questions, do answer mine?

1. What is the whole essense on why God said that tithe should go to the Levites? What is the intent behind that?

To support the Levites who do not have any portion of inheritance in Israel. The intent was sustain them in their livelihood while the do the work of the temple\tabernacle. That's my simple answer and I don't wanna expand it beyond that BUT remember, the entire law was a SHADOW and not the substance. We shall expand further though, if necessary.

Alwaystrue: 2. Being male, where you circumcised? Do you intend or have you circumsized your sons? If you did or intend to, why?

Yes, I was circumcised and I intend to circumcise my male son(s). That circumcision is NOT AFTER the law of Moses to be saved or circumcision that was to be a sign of purity and cleanliness but for medical and sexu.ality purpose. There're people who do not circumcise and are in Christ. Does that mean they impure or defiled? Certainly NOT!

Alwaystrue: Oh so now you accept he made an error. after initially accepting he spoke the gospel truth, ehn?
You don disown am join, say im for explain better.

The guy never said anything about Abraham, as father of Christians according to the flesh, He was specific about what he meant and explained it was about the spirit, na you no wan gree now just because he aligns with almost all you say. All these your reconciliatory measures just makes it funnier.

Remain small you for endorse message join...'I am Goshen360 and I endorse this message!'

^ ^ You sef...I don dey watch you since o. E be like say you resemble somebody I sabi o ....but make I keep quiet sha I know my brother Christemmbassey will never say Abraham is not the father of them that are of faith because he studies the scriptures as well, so you guys should have cool down small for him to land naw. Una just wan tear the guy into pieces.

Yes, I said he spoke the Gospel truth and followed up with my post that Abraham is the father of the Jewish nation and also of faith to them that believes but not according to the flesh to them that are of faith and so, in that case, he is right. How? Christemmbassey showed the connection and so I did also - Abraham believed God and it credited to him for righteousness so also, we believe in the finished work of Christ and in Christ, so God counts it for us as righteousness.

Alwaystrue: II Corinthians 3:13-18
3 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.
15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.


Ofcourse, it is the handwriting of the law. Most of the laws were not given with explanation or a message to the spirit. It was all about 'Do not touch this', 'Do not do this'.
Just like you tell a child do not go there, He will never understand until you appeal to His spirit which Christ did. He came to clean the inside of the cup, so the outside is clean and not the other way round.


Matthew 23:25-26
25 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence!

26 You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too.

The Pharisees took that literarily meanwhile Christ had the better meaning. That is the veil the pharisees could not see past.

Chei, you're and have really mixed things up big time. What Apostle said in that context is the same Jesus said. The law says what it meant my dear. There's no other way for the law to say whatever it wanted to say. What Paul expounding there was the same Jesus said - that the law was ALL POINTING TO HIM AND REVEALING CHRIST. If you can't see Christ all through the law, then such person have a veil on his\her eyes. Luke 24:27 & John 5:39

How do you equate stone a rebellious son\daughter to death if it doesn't mean what it say? How do you explain stone a false prophet to death in the law if it doesn't mean what it says? How do you explain don't do mix farming or mix clothing if it doesn't mean what it says? What further intent do you want to derive from there? I have explained much of this on the other tithe thread - the intent, purpose and reasons for the law.

As regards "the letter killeth....the Spirit gives life", I don't know what you're talking about but here the scriptures I was referring to when I said, don't be too much into KJV only. It's too heavy and most times, confuses folks BUT I love it though

New Living Translation (©2007)
He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He has also qualified us to be ministers of a new promise, a spiritual promise, not a written one. Clearly, what was written brings death, but the Spirit brings life.

Weymouth New Testament
It is He also who has made us competent to serve Him in connexion with a new Covenant, which is not a written code but a Spirit; for the written code inflicts death, but the Spirit gives Life.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
He made us ·able [adequate; competent] to be servants of a new ·agreement from himself to his people [covenant; Jer. 31:31–34; Luke 22:20]. This new ·agreement [covenant] is not ·a written law [ of the letter], but it is of the Spirit. The ·written law [ letter] brings death, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6

That's what I meant! It was the law of Moses, that is referred to as the "letter" that killeth in KJV. It has nothing to do with studying the text of God's word to understand the truth of the word. I don't know if I made myself clear.

Ubenedictus: actually my dear, the op didn't use the bolded phase. At the end it seem he has succesfully shouded himself.

You sef, you too funny. Errmm Ermmm, * scratching my head * No mind the OP naw. He wan fumble small na eim I say make I quickly jump in naw before he tear down the roof and the house start to leak...

@ Christemmbassey,

You should have specified more the context of your 'father' meant in the OP. Anyway, Abraham is NOT the 'father' of Christians according to the flesh BUT 'father' as it relates to faith IN CHRIST and as an example of them that are justified by faith and believing in the finished work of Christ.

alexleo: OH NO! Goshen360 STOP! christembassy truly derailed, why are you trying to patch him up? This was why i was suprised at the manner Frosbel rushed to support him without going thoroughly through his post( At least going by the way he researches and analyzes the scripture). You people seem to be running a gang of teachers who supports each other irrespective of whatever wrong the person has posted and it will not help in this forum. Whatever any anti tithe teacher posts here, all of you in the gang supports blindly even when he is wrong. Next you begin to patch him up. My own is, when you say the truth i endorse and when you lie the next minute i raise my objections. Dont even defend christembassy. He is wrong and thank God "Alwaystrue" did a good job there to correct his errors. I just pity weak minded christians who will swallow every trash here.

Okay Alexleo,

Lemme follow up to quote where Bassey made a clear statement he wasn't referring to Abraham as a father....according to the flesh and he also said he is our father in 'faith' for all who believes. You guys need to understand him first. It's like you're too quick to jump at him so you couldn't get the clear picture. Alex, please read this post below. There's one I need to get and update. Nobody is patching him up but I think you guys didn't cool down to get what he's saying.

christemmbassey: because of what happened on satday, which completly unsetles me, i will just sumarise as follows. 1. Christ advent was to fulfilll God's promise to redeem man in Gen 3:15. 2. God promised to make Abraham father of many nations was fulfiled in the nations of Isreal and did not include christianity, however Christ had to be born from thn nation of Isreal for obvious reasons.(GEN 12:3) 3. Abraham is called the father of faith, because he was the 1st person to display God kind-of faith. Coming from an idol worshiping background, he just head a voice and he obeyed in faith(Gen 12). 4. When God said, "....and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed"Gen12:3,Gal:3:8 WHAT WAS THIS BLESSING?, did this statement meant that Abraham is going to be made the father of ALL families of the eath? No. 5. Now what is the connection between the christian and Abraham? The anser is very simple-FAITH. Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness Jm2:23,Gal3:6 with the same faith the christian believes in his heart that God raised Christ from the dead. "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness...." Rm10:9-10, thats the only thing that conects us with Abraham.-faith, Gal3:9 says "SO THEN THEY WHICH BE OF FAITH ARE BKLESSED WITH THE FAITHFUL ABRAHAM. You see, its because we accept Christ by faith(seed) of Abraham but he is not our projenitor, we were not born of Abraham. 6. Now, who is a christian?, simple, 'a christian is someone who is BORN-AGAIN, 1Peter1:23 says, "being born again, not of coruptible seed, but of incoruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abided forever", (kjv) Abraham died, now i will ask, when Christ said, " i am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the FATHER, but by me" jn14:6(kjv) was it Abraham he was refering to? 7. Abraham is the FATHER of the Jews and NOT of the christians. Matt3:9,Luke13:16, 16:22-30, 19:9, jn 8:37-39 acts 3:25, acts 7:2, acts 13:26. Continues in a moment....

^

christemmbassey: Pls this post is not to rob anyone of their Abrahamic paternity neither is it an attempt to force anyone to accept anything, the jast i checked, this is a forum where we all come to share with love as ppl who have recieved liked precious faith, nobody is here to force anybody but to share and i think if you feel strongly against any point the best is to mashall out urs with scriptures and questions, i dont supports this proclivity of throwing away the baby with the bath water. I never said anything about spiritual father(for what so ever that is) or father of faith, i saith, "christians, Abraham is not your FATHER". Christianity did not come as a fulfilment of God's promise to Abraham, but it cam as Gods plan for the restoration of man into his rightful position as the son of the living God, just like the pre-fall Adam who did not need to give God anything to enjoy God's blessings and rule as God intended. We are the children of God and not Abraham and stop singing 'Abraham blessings are mine', for what God has given to us is far more than what he promised or gave to Abraham. Concluded.

Image123: goshen and goliath, we go know as them take relate now, lol.

e-hugs. I don dey watch you since.....if I no look wella, I for say you be Alwaystrue AGAIN

Goshen360: Question @ All tithe teachers, - Image123, Bidam, Alwaystrue, Alexleo, Joagbaje, Olaadegbu, Snowwy etc.

1. Is 'tithe' or 'tithing' included in the second subject of discussion - AND TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES or NOT ?

Here is your answer....waiting for the rest though

Alwaystrue: @Goshen,

1. Tithing is included in the laws of Moses to the people of Israel, same with adultery, stealing, lying, lack of mercy and faith?

So therefore, if 'tithing' is included in that 'law of Moses' talked about in Acts 15, and it was concluded by the Apostles that the Non-Jewish Christians, you & I are not to keep that law of Moses, why then do you people, tithe teachers still acting the Judaizers of the Old by telling Christians to keep 'some' part of the law and not all. You even agreed and accepted the truth the law of Moses was given to the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL....NOT to the CHURCH of Christ or to Christians. I hope you know the difference between both and how Christ's death made ONE NEW MAN called the church from JEWS and GENTILES, I hope you know it?

...same with adultery, stealing, lying, lack of mercy and faith?

This is called over-sabi answer. You have answered the question already. But here is where you guys are missing it or mixing it up. You statement...."same with adultery, stealing, lying, lack of mercy and faith?" is NOT based on keeping the laws of Moses in the New Testament, if it were, then the Apostles would have included all other laws of washing rituals, following the priest for sin offerings, waiting for priest to pray for your forgiveness and enter the tabernacle on one's behalf etc.

Adultery, fornication, lying, stealing etc are all in the Spirit of the New Testament instructions, not based on the law of Moses. If these things mentioned are stated clearly in the New Testament, why? Did the Apostles forgot to also include tithe or tithing in the New Testament for Christians? These are questions we should be asking ourselves.

Goshen360: 2. Does the phrase "keep the law of Moses" includes ALL or SOME of the law of Moses ?

Here is your answer,

Alwaystrue: 2. Keeping the laws of Moses is in entirety everything and this cannot be done except through Christ.

No one can keep those laws except they are in Christ Jesus and understand the whole essence of the law through unveiled eyes.

Again, you answered the question correctly and trynna add...."and this cannot be done except through Christ". is out of point. There is nowhere in scriptures we are instructed to keep the law of Moses THROUGH Christ rather, it is the Spirit of life in Christ that helps is keep the NEW LAW OF CHRIST, not of Moses. If you're saying we're to keep the law of Moses in its entirety everything and with the help of Christ.

I will be willing to show you some laws of Moses you can't even keep through Christ. Do you want some? Lemme know show I can quote few I have shown you in the first response the essence of the law except you want more. We are to cast out the law of Moses and its slavery spirit so that Grace may find its root in us. We are not to redefine it and mix it with Grace. They don't belong together. Christ already fulfilled it, it is not our role to still try keeping it.

I will follow up in my next post to answer your own question.

Alwaystrue: @Goshen,
Circumcision was a sign of purity and cleanliness in the OT so not doing it was tantamount to being defiled. That is what was meant by circumcision after the manner of Moses. I know you know all the scriptures of circumcision by Paul.
Circumcision does not save, Christ does and that is why those men said except you are circumcized you cannot be saved.

If circumcision is a sign of purity and cleanliness. It therefore follows that it is only those who are pure or clean that can or should come to Christ. But remember, Christ came to call sinners to himself. Luke 5:32 & Mark 2:17. There's no point in those Judaizers trynna bring the Judaism, religion of the law of Moses into the New Testament. That religion of the law was fulfilled by Christ; there is nowhere in scriptures we are told to continue to keep them THROUGH Christ. If there is, show me the scripture(s).

Alwaystrue: Now, what is the law of Moses? They are a set of do's and don't ranging from ceremonial to moral etc to make one righteous before God. The law of Moses because it was given through humans was rigid and dwelt a lot on the letter, was on actions and not the heart, lacked grace and the penalty was high.

Now, what is the law of Moses? They are a set of do's and don't ranging from ceremonial to moral etc

There's nothing like moral or ceremonial etc law. It is the law keepers that segmented it and call it those names. The law was given to Moses as a WHOLE - Written and Oral. The people that the law was given and applies to did not say one is moral, another is ceremonial. They received it as ONE WHOLE called...of Moses. If there is a scripture that says one is moral and another is ceremonial, please show me.

...etc to make one righteous before God.

I believe you should know by now that no one is justified by keeping the law of Moses. Hence, keeping the law doesn't make one righteous

New International Version (©2011)
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. Romans 3:20

If you're talking about the 'righteousness which comes by the law of Moses' (Romans 10:5), you must keep ALL to be made righteous with or before God. That was how those under the law was made righteous with\before God. The righteousness which is 'by faith' doesn't require to keep the commandments of the law of Moses. We are under the Grace of Christ, not under the law of Moses. They are water and oil that cannot mix together.

Alwaystrue: The Spirit of Liberty in Christ Jesus makes us understand the reason behind those laws and we end up not going against God's real intent for the law.

No! You're redefining the intent, purpose and reasons behind the law being given. Look at the real intent of the law here below,

New International Version (©2011)
Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Galatians 3:19

I can go on and on, but lemme stop here on the intent, purpose and reasons behind the law being given. ^ ^ There you have it up there. We should always say what scriptures say. The law of Moses is NOT to be redefined and\or kept by Christians anymore; it is to be CAST OUT that Grace may find its root in our heart.

I will follow up with the rest of your answers in the next post(s).

^ Okay. Lemme allow the OP to explain himself then BUT I don't read him saying Abraham is NOT our father in faith, he said our FATHER.....plainly, he doesn't say he is NOT our father in faith means he is not our father according to the flesh.

Being blessed THROUGH Abraham IN Christ is NOT same as being blessed IN Abraham himself. It was the 'seed', Christ that came THROUGH Abraham that we're blessed IN.

On the issue of my claiming higher knowledge, that's not an issue here. If I say anything not grounded in sound doctrine, people should challenge me and let's reason the scriptures together. I do not lay claim to omni-science as I'm not. I have said that too many times here on this forum - follow my teachings as I present Christ. If not, let every believer answer for themselves by studying\searching out the truth for themselves.

Lastly, don't get too tied up in KJV if you do. I see from your past posts that you get deeper meaning also from other & many available translations. If you're talking about 'letter of the law', it is simply the law itself. The letter being referred to is the law itself that killeth - look up that verse in many other translations, you'll understand what I'm saying. There's absolutely nothing called the 'spirit' of the law. I can easily grasp what you meant by the 'spirit' behind the law or the intent of the law and that too, we are told the intent(ions) for which the law (of Moses) was given. The law will clearly state exactly what it meant.

DrummaBoy: Goshen, ideally there shouldn't be any more question to be answered. Gary Arnold gave a brilliant exposition on this matter on his website www.tithing101.com
Nonetheless the old judaistic legalism that Paul fought against with the circumcision is what has reared its ugly head with the pro-tithers. Unfortunately their pride will not allow them see.
THERE ARE NO NEW TRICKS IN SATAN'S BAG. If it is not Roman catholicism, it is a bunch of tithing Pentecostals.
I am done with this thread. My questions are answered.

God bless you brother. When you tear down Judaism mix with Grace, you'll clearly see the true Gospel of Christ unloosed in your spirit. You will flow and grow in Grace. You will give to as many as you can give to out of love and because you have been given, not because you want to be blessed. The questions I asked, the tithe teachers cannot answer those questions in the face of scriptures that awaits them. I have made up my mind to fight the end time Judaizers who presents\mixes 'some' parts of the law of Moses to Christianity.

However, make sure you practice Grace based giving - don't let any preacher deceive you no more. And as you are being delivered from from this tithe which is included "the law of Moses" in what Apostle Peter called, "a yoke which neither their fathers nor them were able to bear"; make sure you talk to another person about it as you go about preaching the Gospel of Christ and of Grace. One by one, let's continue to set the tithe captives free from the yoke\slavery of bondage.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
5 Christ set us free ·so that we could live in freedom [to a place of freedom; or by means of freedom;]. So stand strong. Do not ·change and go back into the slavery of the law [ submit/be fastened to a yoke of slavery].

New International Version (©2011)
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

New Living Translation (©2007)
So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Galatians 5:1

The only things we are not to do with our freedom from the slavery\yoke of bondage of the law (of Moses) is contained in the verse below,

Expanded Bible (EXB)
13 My brothers and sisters, God called you to ·be free [ freedom], but do not use your freedom as an ·excuse to do what pleases [opportunity/occasion for] your ·sinful self [sinful nature; flesh]. [ But; Rather] Serve each other with love. Galatians 5:13

15Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”i meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. << Galatians 3 >> New International Version

That promise God made to establish a covenant between Abraham and Him is Christ, verse 16. Our faith in the fulfilled Christ connects us 'spiritually' speaking like the faith of Abraham to God. Abraham becoming 'spiritual' father of all those who are of faith by the same faith in the promised seed even those it was typified in Isaac. Therefore, he became a our father (spiritual) as of our faith in Christ, setting an example of faith for us all.

Now, that faith-covenant had being fulfilled in Christ. Scriptures calls Christ the AUTHOR AND FINISHER of OUR FAITH. In the finished work of Christ, not Abraham's, we seal our redemption by faith in Christ through Grace. Abraham being a foreshadow or an example of faith doesn't called Christians to idolize him but by following his example of faith. The promise is fulfilled in Christ already, our complete faith is to be on the person of Christ NOW and till he returns again.

Thank y'all.

^ I will NOT do much work here since you, Alwaystrue have put everything in proper perspective. The OP does not in any way claim that Abraham IS NOT THE FATHER OF FAITH OR THEM THAT ARE OF FAITH. It is people who will not take time to understand him or rather let him land. I knew he was talking about Abraham, NOT BEING A FATHER OF CHRISTIAN as according to the flesh.

He definitely knows and understands that Abraham is a 'spiritual' father for us who are of faith in Christ. The seed promised was Christ and that is how the whole nations shall be or are blessed IN ABRAHAM, by being in Christ because in THY SEED (singular) shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Like I said, Abraham is a two-fold meaning man - father or patriarch of the Jewish nation and spiritual (faith) father of all those in Christ.....by faith that it might be by Grace are you saved. In the fulfilled promised, that is in Christ, we are more blessed than Abraham. Hence, I strong those who sing Abraham's blessings are mine do err.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Ephesians 3:20

Christians are in-dwelled by the Spirit of God....power that works IN us. Abraham wasn't indwelled. It is this 'faith' that we are of and that Abraham had in the promised seed and God's covenant that connects us, not the law. That's why you would see, most things that Apostle Paul did was to tear down the law of Moses BUT said, the promise\covenant which was BEFORE the law cannot be abolished.

to be continue

1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. << Acts 15 >> King James Bible

1. In verse one was the origin of the Judaizers such as we have in the body of Christ today - circumcision to be saved!

2. Verse 5 reveals their real intentions.....circumcision to be saved AND TO COMMAND THE NON-JEWISH (GENTILES) CHRISTIANS TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.

3. Peter responded to subject matters of discussion - circumcision to be saved AND commanding them to keep the laws of Moses.

Question @ All tithe teachers, - Image123, Bidam, Alwaystrue, Alexleo, Joagbaje, Olaadegbu, Snowwy etc.

1. Is 'tithe' or 'tithing' included in the second subject of discussion - AND TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES or NOT ?
2. Does the phrase "keep the law of Moses" includes ALL or SOME of the law of Moses ?

I asked first question which Bidam failed to answer whole fully. Here is the second 2-in-one question for y'all.

Thank you as you attempt to answer for everyone to read.

obadiah777: ALTHOUGH I STILL THINK ITS MAN MADE STUFF. NO SUCH THING IN THE BIBLE AS CLAP OFFERING.

Thank you brother. Let them continue in their 'little' adding to scriptures and subtracting from scriptures.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Brothers and sisters, I have applied this to Apollos and myself for your sake. You should learn from us not to go beyond what is written in Scripture. Then you won't arrogantly place one of us in opposition to the other. 1 Corinthians 4:6

^ It is because you don't know God too well and His word. Seriously. A prophet in the Bible was sent by God to tell a king he will die. The same king turned his face to the wall and to God and prayed. Before the prophet stepped out of the king's palace, God told the prophet again to go back and tell the king he will live. Why? That king knows God and keyed into God's word - Now, that is OLD TESTAMENT.

Christians have immeasurable blessings in Christ. In Christ dwells the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. When these people begins to use fear to intimidate Christians into giving, it is not God's way. Off course, won't you expect someone that wants to exploit to follow up with all kinds of stories that leads to fear?

New International Version (©2011)
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline. 2 Timothy 1:7

New International Version (©2011)
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. 1 John 4:18