₦airaland Forum

budaatum:
Omphaloism!


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis

Lol, you read "implied" i hope? Read carefully and cure persistent ignorance, the Bible doesn't say the earth was created in your implied time.

KnownUnknown:
You cannot use the electromagnetic spectrum as an analogy for your soul. While we only see a sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum, we can detect some of it in other physical ways and through the use of various tools. You say the soul includes emotions, intellect, and a will but the brain is the source of the emotions, intellect, and will because these are the names we give to various brain functions.

Earlier you said the soul requires a functioning brain to work; however the brain works without the soul or the other thing you call spirit.
If one rightly views the bible as Jewish mythology/philosophy and Roman fiction, there is no need to try to view reality through its lens, regard it as infallible, and ignore knowledge for superstition.

The spectrum is a good explanation/comparison as it shows you that something can be invisible but reflect physically. You don't see x-ray light but there is a machine that produces X-rays for you to see. The machine or the X-ray pictures are not the x-ray light. Same way the soul sometimes manifests physical through the expression of emotions and intellect.
i said/meant that the soul's function is physically seen or expressed by emotions and intellect, not that the soul cannot function without a brain. The scriptures have long taught and been right on many issues. It knows man evidently more than man is still struggling to know himself. It changes man more easily and better than man's efforts have so far tried. It's a moving train that sweeps anything and anyone along its way for centuries. It has been working and continues to work, while man has continued to need fixing, and keeps getting fixed by the Bible every time. It is only wisdom to submit to the greater instead of aimless struggles that do not satisfy.

KnownUnknown:
Emotions result in involuntary bodily reactions that can be measured objectively by pupil dilation (eye tracking), skin conductance (EDA/GSR), brain activity (EEG, fMRI), heart rate (ECG), and facial expressions.
While emotions are associated with bodily reactions that are activated through neurotransmitters and hormones released by the brain, feelings are the conscious experience of emotional reactions that we call love, anger, fear, etc. The intensity of the feeling ( your examples above) will depend on various factors and can also be measured, so we can device a framework to determine who you love most or who is most grateful for a $5000 gift.

You used cheerleading decibels to measure joy/excitement the other time. Hope you have learned better. Like i have clearly stated, there is no scientific consistency to what you are saying. There is no device available to measure most grateful, stop kidding. As i havve explained already, emotions and intellect are physical products of the soul.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Unfortunately, that woman is going to the false prophet. Reason why people should study the Bible for themselves and pray to God themselves instead of shortcuts.

passion007:
The question is in the attached pic.
Thought provoking, isn't it?

Errmmmm, how do you kill spirits and for what? Was Jesus Christ a spirit. How provoked are your thoughts really?

kimco:
Again, im asking you to disrefard all things that you cannot see evidence of. There is evidence for all the feelngs you named bro. None so far. Those who hide their feelings beyond recognition are extremely good at it. Take into consideration, if i try to illicit jealous emotions and expect anger or grim faced disappointment. Now imagine I didnt get these two expressions, normally I would conclude the person was not jealous. However if i knew that jealousy has certain cues and i look out for those, Most likely I wil notice these. Generally people dont look out for these cues. General human behaviour is predictable, fuelled by our emotions. Since most people are not trained to look out for these cues. So you are objectively wrong.

Anyways prove your point for the soul .....

It's akin to saying we should disregard X-rays and gamma rays and electromagnetism for instance. While you cannot see them, you can see their effects on visible things as it were. The functions of the soul include emotions, intellect and a will. These are observable things.
Like i have well stated, individual emotions are not generally repeating, measurable or the same. Whatever, influence(r) you might blame or claim, that's the truth. The crux and summary then goes to the authority and the effect/power of the Bible, as that's where i'm coming from.
The teaching and influence of the Bible is so powerful and drastic that it leaves the diligent student with real reasons to take what it says about the human soul seriously.

kimco:
Which of them is on the magnitude of creation of the world?

Lol, you were concerned that God CANNOT work at night. After giving you proof, you're asking for magnitude. i should do well to increase my "emotion magnitude" too.

MaxInDHouse:
Funny Churchgoer!

Ciao, boring Jwickedness.

MaxInDHouse:
I'm already making the defense already but we are not to throw costly pearls at swine {Matthew 7:6} it would have made more sense if this is coming from someone who cherish God's word not some atheist who thought the Bible is nonsense!
Of course he will think everyone living by what the book says is psycho!

May the Lord heal your confusion.

MaxInDHouse:
Anyway you're right:

But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect. 16 Maintain a good 1Peter 3:15

Make a proper defense already then, at least that's how you understand the verse. Why slackest thou?

kimco:
That Yahweh can do it?

The many miracles that happened at night in the Bible?

ChiefSosa:
Listen, fam! The only sensible advice I can give you is to meet up with 1 or more of them face to face if you've got questions; you can literally find them anywhere. Some things can't be typed; it'll be tiring. If you don't like them, then let them be. Dem no dey kill person put. Don't go about talking down on them outta ignorance. Cheers, vato!

Are you part of them? Lol

MaxInDHouse:
Do you realize that it really matters with whom you're taking side? Psalms 1:1

And you're suggesting that i should be on Maximus' side Have i not said the truth, have you not resumed work?

Donnie the comedian is at it again. You should keep these shows for the holidays, folks will be more relaxed and accommodating to listen.

ChiefSosa:
Are you expecting someone to type epistle here?

Yes, many of your people will soon resume. The BMC crew of the JWs, you have not been recruited yet. Applications open in June.

kimco:
1. I agree.


2 down to the rest...."Soul" cannot be proven, let's stick to proven phenomena.

You seem to talking about the degree of emotions, not the emotion itself. That's why you keep talking about of measurement. You are looking at one part of the picture.

Most people would have similar emotions given an influencer....the degree of their reaction however will always be different. That's not what we are discussing here. If i want to elicit jealousy, I would introduce an influencer. Now if I want to illicit erratic behaviour from jealous emotions, that would be different. Whether you scream or smile through it all, one can never hide their emotions....there are visual cues that always gives these things away. These are very observable. We miss these cues because we dont tend to look out for them. We rather want to see the bombastic reactions.

This is what i have been trying to say, we cannot subject the ethereal to only physical or scientific. It brings us to the real matter. When we say that a man has a soul, it is a spiritual reality, terminology and classification. The body is the physical part and more or less the container for the soul and spirit. There is an intertwining of sorts however given the fact that it's evidently the same man, one way or the other. It's similar to what we call the Trinity. The God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit concept can be quite challenging if you want it to be.
The Bible authoritatively shows and teaches that the soul of man is the seat of emotions, intellect and the will. It communicates these physically using the human body. A person has emotions, intellect and a will but can be limited to physically demonstrate it. You may want to show your joy, or fury, or intellect, using your legs, or your hands, or your mouth. But if they were tied at that moment or imprisoned, then you cannot. You were limited in expressing them but it did not remove the fact that you had them.
BTW, people hide and control their emotions all the time. It's called deception or self-control. Also everyone does not react the same way, one man's poison is indeed another man's meat. Privilege is an influence(r) for instance. We both agree that some use it and others abuse it. No cues help you predict these things individually and consistently.
In summary, i think the issue is with nomenclature and not with evidence. We all agree on humans having at least emotions and intellect. What we do not completely agree on is the part of the human responsible. Which once again takes us back to the authority of the Bible and what it has to say concerning the part of the human responsible for emotions and intellect.

LordReed:
LMFAO! There we go! Bwahahahahaha!

[img]https://media1./images/12fff9fde7b5fa8acc7c431173cfb7cf/tenor.gif?itemid=15365827[/img]

Find your mate and seniors.

[quote author=kimco post=101998620]

I think i may have misunderstood your use of "specific". Help me out with that.

By "specific", i mean definite, precise or explicit. Science is all that. It deals with natural phenomena, therefore it remains odd for people to want to put the supernatural or ethereal on only scientific prisms.

Again, you cannot say these things without considering the influencers. Nothing happens in a vacuum...there are always influencers. That's why considering a particular influencer, behaviours can be predicted. A soldier first time of killing is likely to be daunting on him/her, but after a while, it gets easier.. .no one is surprised when that happens, but if the opposite happens, we are surprised. Even then certain explanations may be given to explain this. Behaviour is predictable most often than not. Experts can bring out certain emotion in you using certain influencers. It cant be measured in the traditional scientific way, but certainly it can be observed and reproduced on a consistent basis with high success rates.

General human behaviour and patterns are predictable and even repeatable. The process is used in education, economics and politics all the time. The individual soul is not so. Therefore, individual emotions change despite the influence(r). The same influence from the same parent, family and school does not necessarily produce the same emotions and even behaviour in 2 people from the same family. One may be serious and the other turn up unserious. If we yet blame a secret, unknown influence(r), we may well bring up the excuse for everything that is not consistent.

Lol I know you are joking....didnt mean to be rude though. I feel when you think of science, you think, test tubes, laboratory, chemicals etc. Anything can be scientific if it follows a systematic process and can be reproduced on a consistent basis. It doesnt have to be 100% it just needs to be consistent enough, say, 9/10 even...

All humans remain different, even people from the same family, despite the influence(r). We do not all respond, react or show emotion the same way. Like you have mentioned sociology and psychology, some are introverted, others are extroverted(influencer i guess). Which proves the point that emotion is not something consistent. People change, people have mood swings, people have a personal will of their own. They do not just respond in programmed ways, and definitely not in equal degrees despite the same conditions.

Emotions can be observed...if you say it not subject to science you are wrong. It can be observed and reproduced consistently given the appropriate influencers. Sociology and psychology are sciences too...just so you know.

You can observe behaviour, not emotion. Someone can be very angry and vengeful and just smile on until he finds the time to hurt. You observed the smile, you did not know the level of disdain he felt. No amount of wires can help you consistently or specifically measure hatred or bile. These are emotions people feel and do not necessarily show.

Never, worry is an enemy of conception.

Lol, pray without ceasing na. It's an old video though. Nonetheless, i believe the people that can do something to quench the fire were already doing so. All you can see left are the women that must have been told to stay away. So they decided to pray. The funny guess is that they were concerned that the fire can spread to reach their church building which is TROUBLE for them. You know how much dem contribute? It's wise for them to start praying not to see temptation oh

KnownUnknown:
Studying a subject’s response to certain stimuli can be predictable, consistent, and measurable depending on the framework of the experiment. The assertions that the test evokes varying emotions is the result of the observation.

We can take six year old kids as the subjects, expose them to something scary such a person in a scary costume sneaking up behind them when least expected, then make predictions about how they will emote and measure the effects through heart rates, brain waves, breathe rates and the likes in a consistent manner. We can predict the emotion we call fear in this particular situation.

The fortunate thing is that we are not just discussing response to stimuli but human emotions. Don't go too far to hypothetical six year olds, examine yourself. Is it the same way you respond to greetings every time? Or to phone calls, or to call to eat, wake up, to your best friend etc. You should be a robot to be that consistent and measurable. How do you emote if given five thousand naira? Can you predict it and is it consistent? Two people that equally need 5k will not necessarily behave the same way upon receipt. One may burst into tears, the same one may hug you, the same one may refuse it, the same one may lie prostrate thanking you. Not to mention different others.

The fact that the horrible costume would not evoke the same emotions on the second and third exposures does not mean we can’t measure fear within our framework, it just means the brain states are different after multiple exposures and fear turns to indifference or even mirth.

How many Kilojoules do you use to measure fear sir? Like i said, i am not referring to response to stimuli or adaptability, i am referring to emotions. People for instance do not "fall in" love the same way, even the same person. Neither is it the guaranteed to be the same exact reason. You don't even love people the same way or show love the same way. How do you measure love? Number of gifts or money spent or the way the person smiles or like you suggest by brain waves and breath rates? What is the breath rate of love, and do you agree that i do not love if my breath rate does not measure up?

You can’t measure guile or treachery because they are the names given to certain actions people do.

You can’t weigh love or excitement but you can measure them in different ways.

Guile and treachery are emotions in people, just like love, happiness, hatred before acting them out. Someone can be treacherous and full of guile in an organisation or government, and not yet acting it out. It is not only when it is acted out that it is there. Do you realise that one can look very lively and bubbling and yet not be as joyous and happy as the second fellow just seated calmly? You just said you can measure this in DIFFERENT ways, care to enlighten us.

The champions league final will be played on neutral grounds. If we have two stadiums filled with Chelsea fans and Manchester United fans, we can measure “excitement” at both stadiums through a framework such as noise decibels and use a third stadium filled with casual fans as control.

Wow, cheerleading decibels is what you use to measure joy, or what do you mean by excitement? Because i am clearly referring to every day human emotions not to supporters club chants. You can be shouting like a baboon as a cheerleader does not mean you are happy. You are simply motivated doing a job. The same fellow can actually be depressed or suicidal. If you have used your framework and control to measure him as a happy man, you have failed oh.

Myer:
Interestingly you just might be right.
It's probably a product of bad preachers.

I have just done a quick study on love in the bible and no where does it say only God's love is true love.
What it says is there is no greater love than the love of Christ.

However, the bible teaches that love is what identifies a Christian right?

Thumbs up. You are very correct. John 13v35 comes to mind.

KnownUnknown:
The brain in too complex, like you point it, to be compared to a transformer.
But if i follow your analogy, the soul uses the brain as a conduit for interacting with the world and any damage to the brain limits the ability of the soul to interact with the world. Is that correct?
If it’s correct, where exactly is the soul and can it function independent of the brain?

You've done well and correct to follow the analogy. The soul of man is the real man, the physical body is just the container. The soul of man is chiefly responsible for intellect, emotion and decision. It connects the physical world chiefly via the brain, which is the nerve centre as it were. It is one reason why we are not all 100% instinct or reason i.e people do things despite even their own reasoning or instinct. In that angle, it functions independent of the "brain" that you expect to reason. If the angle you are referring to is after death of the physical brain, then we will have to proceed to the scriptures. i guess you know the answer there.

A vegetative person that is hooked up to a machine can be kept alive and even respond to some physical stimuli but dies when unhooked from the machine.

Close to what i said above. The body is the major thing physically. Souls and spirits are not subject to physical stimuli and discussion.

There is difference between lacking emotions and being unable to show them physically.

Stephen Hawking had a brain fully capable of emotions but was unable to show them physically while DMX had a damaged brain incapable of emotions while still physically capable.

All we can say is that emotions depend of the functioning of the brain unless you show where the soul is, how it interacts with the brain, and whether it is wholly dependent on the brain.

If you insist the soul is an emergent property of the brain, then you have to explain the difference or similarities between consciousness and soul.

A working brain will pass emotions, just like you described Hawking. Like you see, he needed a body or physical aid to fully pass across his emotions and intellect. How will you cry without eyes no matter how much you feel like? What do you define as consciousness? The soul is not a property of the brain, the soul is the real human. It expresses itself via the body, the brain being the headquarters.

KnownUnknown:
It’s ironic that you claim emotion is not subject to science while using objective observation, which is a scientific methodology.

The fact that the same stimuli doesn’t evoke the same emotion after multiple exposures is a scientific observation about how the brain reacts to stimuli. Yet you claim emotions are not subject to science.

How else do you expect me to explain them to you, via scriptural methodology? i have to use what you understand/believe/know to help explain what you do not understand/believe/know.
Thank God i have someone at last that knows for a FACT that the same stimuli doesn't evoke the same emotion. You must be godsent . However it is not scientific as it is not predictable, consistent or measurable. How on earth do you measure guile or treachery, how do you weigh love and excitement?

Myer:
How is it false?
You can't claim something is false if you can't present the truth.

The truth is right there in the Bible. You should not just make false claims all over and be expecting others to bring you truth. Where in the Bible did you see your claims. Let's start from there. Here are your claims in quote below, show me where they are in the Bible. Then, i will show you where my claims are in the Bible.

The bible teaches that every thing humans knew as love had never been love.
The bible teaches that only God loves us.
Christians preach that the love between a mother and her child is not true love.
That the love between a husband and his wife is not true love.
That the love between siblings is not true love.
That the love between best friends is not true love.
That the only true love is the love of God. And the love of Christ dying for the sins of mankind.

kimco:
I didnt say your examples are anomalies. I am saying you have disregarded the influencers, you assume these things are measured in a vacuum. They are not.

Science isn't necessary specific, who told you that? Science gives the best possible answer to questions asked...that best possible answer isn't always 100 but consistently reproducible. Consistent doesn't mean 100% either.

In this case, we have said the same thing so why different conclusions? Science is consistent and measurable, it is principled. i don't know where the 100 figure came out from though. How you say science is not specific is funny, anyway i'll let it slide. Emotions are not specific, consistent or consistently reproducible. The exact same conditions that make you burst into tears today may make you angry tomorrow or simply whimper.

When things are measured especially human behaviour, we accept the general consensus (through experimentation and research by observation) as the best possible explanation. We cannot account for every single human being on earth...not possible. If a human being smiles while watching a gruesome murder we assume something is wrong...cos the consensus is that, all things being equal, a human being should not be smiling in that case. That's the anomaly I'm talking about

Not necessarily an anomaly, it depends on many things. But not to divert, the point from here is that the same gruesome scene will not produce the same emotion in you 10 or 2 different times. And it's same for everyone. It is not consistent, science is consistent.

Science doesn't always include a lab and test tubes, there are many tools for testing.
Your post tells me your view on science is very narrow. Let me guess, you don't think psychology is a science right?

You know that's why i asked you what science is na, since my view is very narrow. But you forgot to tell me.

There is a reason why a lady wanting to make her lover jealous will engage in certain things....she knows he is very likely to be jealous...if he isnt, she is shocked...

Lol, not just a reason but a billion reasons, exactly why emotion is not subject to science.

KnownUnknown:
Emotions are description of brain states influenced by internal and external factors.

The rapper DMX was very emotional in his art and life. Then he overdosed while trying to soothe certain emotions that caused him suffering, which led to the death or malfunctioning of significant portions of his brain. Subsequently, he was alive but the brain was in a “vegetative” state, which meant he could not emote. Clearly, his emotions were the results of different brain states and when the brain malfunctioned the emotions stopped. If emotions were dependent on something called soul, the guy would still be alive displaying emotions despite the brain being in a vegetative state.

The brain is one of the most complex organs in the human body. It is made up of more than 100 billion nerves that communicate in trillions of connections. It is the physical powerhouse of the soul as it were. It's like your transformer converting electricity for your use. If your brain is fried, evidently, you will struggle to physically show emotions. It does not mean that you lack emotions, just that you cannot show them more physically.

kimco:
What is your proof?

Proof of what, so i'm not getting you wrong?

kimco:
If God acknowledges the day night cycle, then he or she is bound by it. Simple...don't try to twist it any how. If you acknowledge it and work according to it, then you are bound by it. You speak as if time only relates to age. An immortal who cannot work in the day is still bound by time... Doesnt make that person mortal. Obviously, according to the bible, he didnt work at night.

Did not is not the same as can not. Don't get it twisted.

kimco:
You are speaking like a lay man...something i know you are not. All the scenerios you have mentioned have contributing factors. Some thing you have decided to ignore completely. Things are not measured in isolation...that is sociology and psychology, contributing factors are very important. Thats why human behaviour, majority of the time,can be predicted...and any odd behaviour is seen as an anomaly. These things cannot be measured sure, but they can be consistent enough to be proven.


Besides, thats not the point, can the soul be proven?

Which of the scenarios i gave is a natural anomaly? Every human being has different and distinct personalities and motives. Science is specific, measurable, principled and easily predictable. Individual emotions are not. You can't measure laughter or happiness or joy scientifically. You can't detect betrayal or envy in the laboratory. What contributing factors do you need to have the same level of love ? What is science? Emotions for instance are sure proof that you have a soul, they come primarily from the soul.

LordReed:
When you have evidence for the existence of soul, spirit or afterlife feel free to present it.

Of course, there's evidence but they're not scientific. They are beyond science