₦airaland Forum

idnoble135: OP permit me to state my thought in brief. It is not offtopic but slightly off topic, lol, depending on how anyone reading this. I hope the'big names' on the religion section gets to read this. Thanks
!I'm just alarmed at the proliferation of threads in the religion section, bringing up the same topics, and the same arguments, over and over again. And soon, it might dawn that we might have been moving in a circle all along.
This is another thread on tithing, coming on the heels of tens(if not hundreds) of thread on a similar subject. The question is, is this necessary again? Kindly hear me out to the end.
We are here, arguing over what we've been arguing on for maybe a month? A year? God knows how long.
My thought is if anyone needed help on this topics, one can simply search for it using the key word. Now we all know that when a thread is open, suggestions on similar threads also come up. And this leaves the reader to keep reading and reading till he/she gets tired. I am even typing this from experience. I have tens of saved pages that i am yet to read on diverse topics. I have read and read before and i'm even tired of reading.
My concern here is, are we not focusing on the minors? Repeating the same doctrinal issues again and again that no one even gets to change his mind at the end. Is this what it means to teach? This section has taught me the difference between a theologian and a teacher. And just my thought, i think we have lots of theologians here and few teachers. That aside.
Let me share my major concerns. We are christians. We are to minister to the Lord, to ourselves, and to the world. Are we really ministering to believers here? Are we giving exhorting words? Can a believer say, thank God for the religion section, just when i needed help, i found a thread that helped me. I mean can a believer testify that anyone here has improved their practical personal life in Christ and not just doctrinal issues?
Can we hear a someone say i use to be a sinner, but a visit to the religion section changed my life and i encountered Christ on a thread on the religion section?
I fear the words of Leonard Ravenhill plays out here, who said, "those of us in the 'deeper life' are busy hunting mice while lions devour the land".
I did not say all this topics, are not crucial, but they lose importance when compared with some topics that are more important than it.
And though i cannot point out monikers, but i have read comments on NL that suggest that the faith of some have been wrecked. And while, there abound glorious opportunities to take advantage of for the benefit of the Kingdom, we sit in one corner of the thread, arguing while alot of decay goes on. God bless the believers that have taken it upon themselves to post evangelistic and (practical) exhorting/edifying threads.
I hope my post is seen as a sincere concern expressed freely here.
I hope this gets to someone, even though one, then this is worthwhile.
I hope this post will not be hidden, it bears my thought also as relating to the topic.
Shalom!

Words. Unfortunately, these folks have no ear to hear.

Hehehehehehehehe, another new revelation. Wetin we no go hear for nl.

i appreciate the Redemption camp and thank God for it, but there is nothing like largest city of God. The whole earth remains the Lord's and the fullness thereof, from east to west and north to south.

thehomer: Did I say or imply you committed an offense? When you misuse language, you make it difficult to communicate with you. When you say you "have all the faiths described above", you're confusing issues. I'm telling you that the word "faith" has multiple meanings and you're saying you "have all the meanings". That is just a misunderstanding of the various concepts.

No I don't have faith in Brahma but what does that have to do with anything here? Or do you have faith in Brahma yourself?

You said i have 1 and 2, i said i have all. Then you start complaining. There is no confusing issues, its actually a clarification of facts. You know little about faith as you said you do not have. Permit me to help you na.

Alwaystrue: @Image, The abortion in this case is the 'willfull' or 'delibrate' termination of a baby at conception or during pregnancy actually. And it has gone a step higher....it occurs even 'outside the womb' as well, with modern science.

Meaning, thehomer supports abortion both inside and outside the womb.
Thanks for the clarification BTW.

Indeed, one step at a time. Here we are on chapter 10, i pray that the grace to finish, God will give, and the salient points to be posted, god will remind. Amen.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

We all have heart desires and prayers, but they are still subject to the will and promise of God. Even God's own will is subject to His nature and Word. God wills that all men be saved but it is not going to happen. Nonetheless, we as believers should study god's Word to know His will and promise and nature, and we should by prayers and supplications make our requests known to God. How often do we pray for our country?

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

It is possible to have a zeal of God without being saved. that is what this verse and verse 1 show us. Israel had a zeal of God, not even of Baal or Ashtaroth or the devil. they had a zeal of God but were not saved. they made sacrifices and offerings, they went to Jerusalem to appear before God every year, they observed the sabbath and patronised the synagogues but they were not saved. It is possible for the soul, the human mind, to be very interested in service, to humanity, the sick, aged, God, and yet be unsaved. Religious activity is not a sure mark of righteousness or salvation. One may be zealous in the choir and church music, or ardent about reading the Bible and concordances but not be saved. They may be motivated by something else apart from God. This is a zeal not according to knowledge. God does not know them, as it were, I never knew you. They do not know God and God does not know them.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Can someone assume that the Israelites were ignorant? This verse says they were. Though they had bible verses on their head and on their cloth and ven inside their brain, they were ignorant. They could tell Herod where the Christ would be born, they could quote the Old Testament by rote but they were ignorant. They were going about to ESTABLISH their own righteousness. Their are different types of righteousness, God's righteousness is the original, every other one is rubbish and fake.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Seek God's righteousness and you shall find.
Pro 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honor.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ is the end of the law i.e Christ is he endpoint, the aim, the goal, the destination of the law. He is where the law is taking us to.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
The end here is the goal, the aim, the apex, the summary. The whole law is summarised or arrives at one point, love/charity. Thou shall love God and thy neighbour. This is what the whole Bible is saying, love. Every passage, every book and verse, it is bringing us to love. And Christ is the full expression of God's love. Every law and rule should bring us to Him. It should draw us closer to Him else the law loses its purpose and context. This is to very one that believeth BTW. The goal of the law(wherever it is found) to every believer should be Christ. The law is not made to justify us but to lead us to Christ. Search the Scriptures, they testify of Christ. Berean christians searched the scriptures and it led them closer to Jesus.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

For those who use the law to obtain righteousness, they have to live by the law. We have seen, in earlier chapters, that this is actually humanly impossible. The law should lead to Christ, it is meant as a mirror, to help us see our helplessness and sin, and run to Jesus for cleansing and righteousness and justification. For those who use, or try to use the law for cleansing or justification, they will have to live by them. Paul proves this by quoting from the Old testament scripture. He proves his next point by also quoting the Old testament scriptures.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

The righteousness which is by faith is God's righteousness and it is the accepted and original righteousness. There is only one way and one institution producing the currency. Every other way and institution will produce illegal and fake currencies. Every other way of righteousness, whether self righteousness, our own righteousness, law righteousness, societal righteousness, all these are filthy rags before God.
the righteousness which is of faith is also seen in Moses. Deuteronomy to be exact. It is not a question of location. god is not limited by location. the time has come when God is not only worshipped in Jerusalem or in Ephesians or in the writings of Peter or Paul. The righteousness which is of faith was already speaking through Moses.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

People think that if a law or word or passage is found in Corinthians or in Jude, then it is more holy or accepted than if it is found in Malachi or Nehemiah or Deuteronomy. The apostles never taught or thought so. they quoted the scriptures freely, and preached Jesus whether it was Leviticus or Isaiah or Nahum. Infact, they had to quote those books for their messages to gain any authenticity or validity. The people were not to be bamboozled by signs and wonders and prophecy. They knew
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
How we need to re-know these things. It would make us new testament christians indeed, more noble, and not having to pick and choose our fancies and wrap Bible verses around our ideas and feelings. The Word is near us if we have and exercise faith. it is not far away, it is right close and should be allowed to come into our hearts. God is not far from any one of us.
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The writer assures every reader that we can be saved. The Word is not far, righteousness of faith is not esoteric. All you need to do is confess and believe. All we need are our hearts and our mouths, which we all have. The promise of God is yes and amen, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

thehomer: In the Bible, we also have God killing people left and right. Some of the purposes also appear to be for burning in hell for eternity.

You are still assuming things. The Bible clearly states God's purposes for creating man, there is no need for careless and unsubstantiated assumptions. In the Bible, we have God healing people left and right, and having mercy left and right, and working miracles left and right. You are literate enough to read and point out where the Bible STATES God's purpose for creating man. If you are either too lazy or ignorant, you should ask, instead of giving us maybes and appear to bes.

And I disagree that God owns human life. Unless you think you're a goat, I don't see the relevance of what you're saying here.

Your disagreement reveals your unseriousness as that point reveals the context in which God has all right, moral or logical or otherwise, to wipe off all human life. i see that you understand the implications of 'Mr G cannot be accused of theft or murder or genocide if he decides to slaughter all the 6000 livestock(goats) that belong to him'.

So if God is raising you to feed you to some aliens or so that you can be a slave to other people, would that satisfy you?

Carefully note God's failure.

The inspiration of the bible depends upon the ignorance of the gentleman who reads it. Yet they tell me this book was written by the creator of every shining star. Now let us see. I want to be honest and candid. I have just as much at stake in the way of soul as any doctor of divinity that ever lived, and more than some I have met. According to this book, the first attempt at peopling this world was a failure. God had to destroy all but eight. He saved some of the same kind to start again, which I think was a mistake. After that, the people still getting worse, he selected from the wide world a few of the tribe of Abraham. He had no time to waste with everybody. He had no time to throw away on Egypt. It had at that time a vast and splendid civilization, in which there were free schools; in which the one man married the one wife; where there were courts of law; where there were codes of laws. -- Ingersoll's Lecture entitled "Some Reasons Why"

We know what God's purposes are, no point for what ifs and crass assumptions. God made humans for dominion, fruitfulness, holiness, praise and victory. All these purposes are clearly stated in God's Word.
You dodged this- do you ask annual questions about Voltron or Winnie the pooh? i see you are searching for something, may you find it.
Is that Ingersoll the agnostic? Eeya, i thought you were an atheist, agnostics believe there is a God and they hate Him. Like Ingerboy hated God because his father was 'wrongfully' kicked out of the church he pastored. Where did Ingerboy draw out the part you bolded? Definitely from his head or something, not from the Bible. So you think God made a mistake to spare any man, yet you complain if He kills any, you seem not to understand yourself. God sent the whole of Israel to Egypt, is Ingersoll that ignorant, this is common primary school Bible knowledge. Stop feeding on such ignorance please.

So you say. As I said, you'll believe anything.

how come i do not believe you or your friend Brahma? Do you know what you are saying at all?

"Now, I read the bible, and I find that God so loved this world that He made up His mind to damn the most of us." - Robert Green Ingersoll.

Read for yourself, here is what Inger tried to read.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God made it so easy that nobody has to do anything special to be regenerated i.e become His own. All you need to do is believe, ONLY believe.

No I've not and I don't feel empty. Your prayers and supplications begging him for all sorts of ridiculous things.

Good you have not. Try not to in future, its the atheist way. Of course you feel empty and incomplete without God. No matter what you achieve in life, you will always come back to confirm if God exists. Its not a curse, its the way you were made by Him. i pray to God but i do not ask for all sort of ridiculous things. Prayer is communication with God, you should do it, it will improve your bp.

No I don't support that.

You support abortion. Abortion is the annual killing of millions of babies in their mother's womb.

long-suffering: Having endured mental or physical discomfort for a protracted period of time patiently or without complaint.
You've been complaining when exposed to mental discomfort.

To endure is to tolerate and put up to. If you refer to your posts as mental discomfort, i think i've put up to it thus far, 16 pages or so. i've tolerated your unwillingness to learn.You have been trying to detract issues by quoting Lord of the rings and Brahma, and refusing to see relevance. You cannot bear the thought of God existing and you hate the faith it seems.

Since I'm gentle, you can strike that off your list.

The only thing you can confidently lay claims to in my little list of things that you are missing without God. Even your gentleness can be said to be superficial as it does not come from God.you are likely to lose it is shaken or exposed to other conditions.

And you're not Jesus.

Jesus is in me, and i am meek to Him. You are not you know that.

Consult a dictionary.

i checked my Bible. you do not have it(temperance).

There is no Holy Ghost. Or can you show me this entity?

He is a Ghost, duh. God is a Spirit.

The fact that you believe in your God doesn't mean you're not proud. Oh I'm free from them alright that is why you don't see me accusing others of "suffering" from it. Do you think believing in Jesus frees you? If you do, then why do pastors and prophets keep "suffering" from the items on that list?

i do not only think it, i know that believing in Jesus free you. i have experienced it that is why. Also, God's Word says it. There is no true pastor or prophet that keeps suffering in sin. Sinners keep suffering in sin, sinners like you. But Jesus came to save you from sin. He did it for me, He can do it for you.

You're assuming that his purposes are in the Bible. If he is the type of God who will kill 42 children, maybe you should be careful about thinking you understand him so much.

It is no assumption, they are there.
Dominion and fruitfulness- Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Praise- Isa 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Holiness and victory- Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

You should not have a problem with the killing of 42 people as you have no issues with over 40million babies that are lost annually to abortion.

Brahma is beyond asking you, he expects you to have realized that yourself. I know enough about Brahma to suggest that you should consider accepting him.

When you accept Brahma and we see the advantage, you can talk.

Bacteria in your intestines are living things and each time you take antibiotics, you kill a lot of them. They have characteristics of living things too. I wonder if this means you'll no longer be taking them.

Are you comparing abortion of babies to bacteria? And you said you are free from sin? Someone who condones and supports the killing/termination of more than 40 million babies annually through abortion has no right to complain about God. You are actuall equating bacteria in intestine to human beings in the womb, like i told you, you have a suppressed conscience.

A book that supports racism would say that racists were good. The fact that the Bible makes a similar mistake doesn't make its assessment correct. An entity who commands the killing of children and infants and who kills them himself cannot be good in character or nature. So, the book is wrong and the adherents are wrong. I have no faith but you're wasting yours. You should turn to Brahma.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
1Pe 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

You need to start reading, a reader makes a leader. Read quality and reality, not junk from the sources you have being quoting. you have faith, every human being does. Faith is belief, you believe there is no God, that is a clear waste of faith.

The president didn't appear very informed, it seems some people have lied so much to him he's out of touch with the truth. Everyone around felt so uncomfortable and that man in black at the left kept pulling the reporter all through. Why, the president seemed surprised to hear the 3000 figure(like shooo, e don reach that number alredy?), and his thinking that the governors are in agreement with him. Great work by sahara anyway, they went all the way to new york to speak with Mr. President. Others can tke a cue and invest in substance journalism.

strong reason for everyone to be extracareful with the music been churned out, they are mostly satan inspired.

christemmbassey: ok, i may nt call u thieves, scammers, fraudstars or traders again, but the 'PROFANE' tag is dif to remove o, bc any christian who tithes to gain anything is ' A PROFANE PERSON' just like Esau, who rejected d covenant of Abrahan and went for a plate of eba.

The heart of the matter is a matter of the heart.
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

thehomer: Looks like a failure of language here with you. Just so you know, faith has multiple meanings. Here are two meanings.



1) and 2) are the sorts of faith religious people like you have when it comes to the Bible and your God.
4) is what I was talking about.

Seriously take the time to learn something about the language. It will help reduce some of the confusion you're having.

hmmm, am i beginning to touch a nerve? What is my offiense? i have all the faiths described above. Everyone has faith, its just that some misuse it. Do you have faith in Brahma too?

debosky: OK I'll do it now.

Anti-tithers, please differentiate between attacking teaching that is twisting scripture on one hand, and those who are persuaded to give tithes of their own volition/personal conviction/inspiration on the other. The latter should not be insulted because they hold a different view and, most importantly, tithing or not tithing isn't a requirement for salvation or acceptance by God.

I believe the main focus is on wrong/deceitful teaching and the misuse of funds thereby derived from people and it should remain so. However let's not lose decorum and resort to insults simply based on a difference of opinion. Clearly where examples of wrong teaching are identified, please point them out, but avoid name calling and insults.

Image and I have had more than half a dozen detailed discussions on tithe but I don't recall it ever degenerating into name calling. I'm not saying I've done anything special, but it is possible to disagree without insults - we are all called to be the body of Christ.

Thank you and God bless you.

Seen, hope they listen.
Oh they already 'debunked' the admonition.

Pastor Kun: @olaadegbu
Thanx for opening this thread as it has created a platform for more and more brethen to know the truth about tithes and recount their steps contrary to your intention of deceiving people further

indeed, Jesus Christ died to set you free from givin that ten percent. Alleluia.

debosky: ^^

I will try to do that (and I also try to avoid these tithe talk myself). The real issue (I think) is the matter of stewardship. How are funds given to the church (tithes or otherwise) managed? I think if this was done properly and didn't appear to focus on enriching the pastors in some cases I'm confident there would be fewer of these arguments.

There are people on the extreme on both sides that try to force things on others. That is not helpful in building each other up as Christians.

When are you going to tell the antitithers to extend this courtesy, can you? Are we to live by experience or by the Word of God? Can you see how some fellows think thou shalt not tithe is the gospel? How does that make anyone closer to God or accepted by God? How does that give anyone victory from sin or the devil? For the little i know, most antitihers on this forum are 'free' from giving a tenth, but not free from slander, and abuse, and rude disrespect for others and for authority, most are not free from drunkeness, most are not free from immorality. How good really is this news that we should not tithe? Some have explained that their finances improved after they stopped tithing, it goes both ways in that case. But should our yardstick of godliness be gain?
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Most antitithers here judge one by whether he is gaining financially or not. Is that the standard? That a pastor or christian is rich or poor, is that the standard or major yardstick for whether he is godly?

thehomer: Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo prior to viability. They are neither innocent nor guilty.

The fact that it makes no sense to you shows your own limitations. Anyone who has read fiction with characters that are evil would understand what I'm talking about.

So much grammar required to state in other words that you have killed a child. Abortion is the termination of life. A baby in the mother's womb is a living thing, whether you like this fact or not, it is true. The child in the womb has all the characteristics of a living thing known. Using other synonyms will not erase the fact that you support killing of millions of babies annually. you have no moral or logical ground to argue against God killing anyone, even on a plain level.

It actually shows off your limitations, because you decided to pick and choose from the book that you consider fiction. The same book clearly states that God is good, and severally shows that He is good. His character is good, His nature is good, and His actions are good. the book considers them good, and His adherents consider them good. You are wasting your faith i must re-state.

thehomer: Did I say you said that in your quote to me here? My point is that it is what the Bible said. Besides, how is that a fallacy? And I recall you saying something along those lines here.
What purposes? Keep in mind the fact that we don't yet agree on what God's purpose actually is so for all you know, killing babies may actually be according to his purposes.
Well, God doesn't own human life so I'm not taking that into consideration for this discussion.

Tywin Lannister: Any man who must say, "I am the king" is no true king. I'll make sure you understand that when I've won your war for you. (Game of Thrones 3:10)

The purposes for God making man are found in His Word(the Bible). it would be foolish to make unsustainable assumptions, assumptions are not local. i can make mine and you can make yours. The wise thing to do is see the Bible and observe God state WHY He made humans. Its strewn all over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Some of these purposes (i can point out the passages) include for dominion, fruitfulness, praise, holiness, victory. There is nothting for us to agree about, its SHOW and tell, not 'may actuallys'.
The Bible states that God owns human life and i have given you a Bible verse for that. It is on this premise that we can discuss His actions sanely. Mr G cannot be accused of theft or murder or genocide if he decides to slaughter all the 6000 livestock(goats) that belong to him. hopefully, you understand that.

Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising
he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended;
over death, over dread, over doom lifted
out of loss, out of life, unto long glory.

I am in a position to tell God what to do if he actually cares about humans. Why don't you try to know or understand him better so that you can seriously realize the problem that is facing you and your God.
I'm not searching. I'm simply saying that if you're going to try to invite me to your God, then you should be ready to look at other Gods you don't believe in.

My chicken is in no position to tell me what to do, though i care about it and even want to use it for delicious christmas food come December. i actually care about it, feeding it and making sure it doesn't get sick. hopefully, you understand that. There is no problem facing God. If you are not searching for something, you would not be spending your years asking questions about Jehovah God. You do not ask annual questions about Voltron or Winnie the pooh, do you? Your pride is keeping you living in denial. Carefully notice the 'MUST' below.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Nope he is dead.

Actually, He died and rose again.

God is not love he is actually hate.

God loves you and so do i.

Well I have joy so you're wrong about that while you have no joy with your regular begging of God

You've never being depressed or thought of suicide? You do not feel empty? What is a regular begging of God?

I'm not wicked and I'm pretty much at peace. As far as I can tell, your Christianity doesn't

You support the annual killing of millions of babies if the name is called abortion, yes? You are not at peace, you just have a suppressed conscience.

I know what it means and you clearly don't have it.

What does it mean, and why do you say that i do not have it?

Oh yes I'm gentle. With God, you cannot be gentle.

possible if you say so. Perhaps you got it from the society where you are or from your parent.

You're obviously not meek

Jesus is meek.

Neither do you show any signs of temperance.

What is temperance?

Good

Good for me, bad for you. The Holy Ghost was sent to help you. You need to stretch out that hand of faith so that he can draw you out of the well of sin.

I'm free from your sin of hubris.

You're too proud to accept that you are a sinner and believe that Jesus Christ can save you, you are not yet free. You are not free from immoral thoughts, coveteousness, idolatry, unforgiving spirit, fornication and worldliness.

Based on what you've said, you cannot say whether or not God's purpose is to kill children. After all, his killing children may be in the part of him that you don't comprehend.
'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass.' (The Fellowship of the Ring)

You claimed that God was supposed to be unknowable. Now you make assumptions that have no leg to stand. God's purposes of creating man are in His Word, not based on assumptions. i comprehend the passage you speak of, you are the one who has failed to comprehend but is content with assumption. God is not a man.

You need Brahma. He says he is the creator. I've seen many brilliant people and not too brilliant people who believe in Brahma and worship him. Even if you've not seen them, that doesn't mean they're not out there, it just means you've not met the right people. There is nothing precious to lose in believing in and accepting Brahma.

Where did Brahma say that i need brahma, and what did Brahma say that i need Brahma for? You have actually met people who believe in Brahma and worship Brahma? hope you are not lying or just mimicking me like a kid? If indeed there is nothing precious to lose in believing in and accepting Brahma, what are you waiting for? You just said you do not believe in Brahma or know Brahma.

debosky: I will gladly do so, trusting you will extend the same courtesy to others.

You should have noticed on this forum that i keep trying to avoid tithe talk, but they keep asking questions on tithe and making unreal claims, same questions BTW that have been answered severally. This they do to deceive new readers and lazy fellows. Tell the antitithers to extend this courtesy, can you?

Nichobabe: I think you are just having fun. You just want to argue. If Kumuyi didn't tell them how come the whole DL members just decided not to watch TV and even destroy the ones they have before. Who gave the teaching?

Sincerely, i'm not having fun, just clarifying issues. Like i have said, it is very possible that the practice arose out of wanting to be like, people do things like the persons, mentors, models, leaders, teachers that they like. People want to walk like them, talk like them, play like them, sing like them, do their hairstyles etc. it might not necessarily be because they were told to by their mentor. Others might have even preached that no doubt, but the question is did Kumuyi ban his members from owning tvs? Is there any proof of any sort to that, or it is just a legend? i ask because someone asserted this position. Even called me a bare faced liar when i have not said anything. i did not deny or accept, because i do not know if Kumuyi did this. i even mentioned that i would not put it past him, but my query is, is it true, is there any proof that he(kumuyi) said so?

debosky: Which anti-tithers has forced anyone to stop giving tithe?

I'm glad you said to him - why not allow each person to get the same light from God? As the passage earlier said, let each be fully persuaded. Why isn't that good enough for you?

As for 'forcing' what do you mean? Is telling people that failure to tithe = sin not equivalent to trying to compel people to tithe? What true Christian do you expect to be told a certain action is sinful and not seek to change? That is my issue - we hear everyday that you are robbing God from pro tithers in order to guilt many into tithing. I believe this is wrong and will continue to challenge it. There's nothing wrong if you tithe, but you have not sinned either if you don't. If God gives you a personal revelation, then that is between you and God - don't make it into a rule for everyone else.

Some pro tithers do condemn others - if you say a person is robbing God, is that a compliment? I don't see calling someone a thief as anything different from condemnation.

This is not the same as praying - the instructions are explicit and numerous. Jesus taught us how to pray, Paul taught us to pray without ceasing, etc. Fellowship of believers - we are called not to neglect this, but even that is not described as robbing God. Even giving - no one is told you HAVE to give, because you may be unable to give for some reason or the other. The apostles didn't even have gold and silver to give the beggar, but healed him instead.

Enough of the condemnation - let each be persuaded in his heart, and not be guilted into giving by evoking fear of a devourer.

i want to believe you are not speaking into the air. i am speking directly to people on nl and on this thread, antitithers that insist that we are despising God and race when we tithe, almost all the antitithers say that. i'll be surprised to hear tat you do not know this. 90 percwnt of tithe threads are by them. A majority of questions and assumptions and sentimental scenarios are by them. You cannot ask a person a straight question of whether it is sin to tithe or no and be shocked to hear the affirmative. How many pro tithers here on nl threaten anyone? Condemnation is different from stating what is believed to be wrong, i'm signing out BTW.Hopefully, ou can keep to our advice of lettin me be persuaded in my own mind.

Candour: For the TV own, I tell you he did preach against members having it in their houses. My dad too thought it was just a question of spending too much time on it so we regulated it in our house until the pastor called him and gave those conditions point blank.

You're right about the dressing issue because all they preach is modesty and the women just adopted Biodun Kumuyi:s style. Even the pastors all trief to adopt Kumuyi's voice and mannerisms when preaching

Who was the pastor that called your dad. was it pastor Kumuyi? i still think it may have been a mass following of leaders/mentors, not a direct ban on members, or workers. Anyways, obviously i know Kumuyi is personally not a 'TV man', hence the thread. The joy and lesson that he is not rooted in tradition but in Christ. Meanwhile, his haters are steeped in their own traditions and ppride.

frosbel: Man worship is focusing on one man as a sort of god among the people of God , who is to be listened to and taken seriously , an almost pope like figure who is infallible.

Maybe if you focused more Jesus , you will not be so immersed into error and myths.

More words of no value. How do these words apply to this thread? What man is a god here? It appears you are in need of help and attention.

Another reason why i'm particular about this is one message that Olaa my brother posted, in one of the threads that involved John Kumuyi saga. In that message, Pastor Kumuyi said something about not telling them to do most of the stuff. i understand the desire and forwardness of people to want to live like and behave like their leaders/pastors/teachers, like dressing like them, walking like them, talking like them etc. Could it be a case of following the example of the leaders, these things happen.

Candour: Well I heard him very well preach against it just as Pastor Timi Amatare and Pastor Ighalo after him in Rivers state. We listened a lot to Kumuyi on tapes called life tapes then whenever we want to have a uniform message. Then 'life tapes' pre-recorded were despatched ahead to all region or district or zonal headquarters as the case maybe. Changes started coming when they started using projectors and white cloth to transmit Kumuyi's messages from Lagos to all churches. It will be a pleasant surprise if all those old messages have been put online for people to access now.

You're right about some still not using TV till now. Ask them, it was preached against then.

Great. This is like what i was asking, not Kunle's hearsay. Nevertheless, please be more detailed, did Kumuyi ban all members from owning or watching TV? Its one thing to preach against something. i understand that becauuse i have heard many things preached against before, like deliverance, prosperity, medicine, dressing, sports, etc. But the context is important so as to understand what exactly is being said and what is truth. It is possible for Kumuyi to preach against spendin time watchin TV instead of praying or studying Bible or evangelism or whatever, depending on context. In this case, this cn be called preachin against TV, but not equal to saying or banning all members from owning or watching TV. i won't take it past Pastor Kumuyi to have said so, fiery holiness preachers said a lot of things in time past. My grouse is that i have never heard anybody say that Kumuyi told him/her to not own or watch TV. Over to you, do you remember him speifically say this?

debosky: I agree, but also equally unfortunate is the behaviour on some of the pro-tithing camp, who insist that tithing is mandatory or 'belongs' to God. Surely you cannot say this - in effect saying non-tithers (different from anti-tithers ) are robbing God - and expect non-tithers to accept this? If more pro-tithers would accept that not tithing is not a sin, then we would have fewer of these discussions.

I have asked Ola a question and he has either intentionally/unintentionally avoided it - this exemplifies what I think is the main issue.

No pro tither has forced anyone to give tithe. The issue is complicated in the sense that if one has light from God on an issue, to him it is sin.Its not that conveneient to say it is a sin not to pray, or not to give, or not to go fellowship with believers. But we do not condemn others on it but correct. If people come to say tithin is not in the Bible or its like, we tell them the true position.

ayoku777: This thread has become 'Ichabod'. Neither groups will shift ground. Let's stop insulting and name calling and rather keep digging our roots deeper in the knowledge and understanding of Christ.

Tithing isn't a big deal, even under the law, Jesus didn't classify it under the 'weightier matters of the law'. I suspect arguments like this is just another Babylonian distraction from what is truly important. Doctrinal conformity isn't what will unite the church but hunger for more of Christ and his glory.

I have friends that tithe and I don't have issues with them and they don't have with me. Don't know why its such a war here. Let pro-tithers stop threatening devourer and cankerworm on anti-tithers and let anti-tithers stop name-calling as well. People are very protective of what they believe until the Holy Spirit sheds greater light on their heart, that light is what we should keep increasing in. Nice debate, but its now at its ichabod stage.

The bad thing is that the antitither camp would not like this. The will continue asking scornful questions, they will open another thread and blog if this one stops. It is like a ministry for them, the new improved gospel.

Candour: Haba image!! Somebody tells you can't be a worker in church or host house fellowship because you own TV and you say its not as good as banning them? What would convince you? Sure you're not expecting a picture of G.S using koboko on recalcitrant members?

Every adult in Nigeria knows deeperlifers didn't watch or own TV in the eighties and nineties because pastor William Folorunsho Kumuyi preached against it .

Pls drop this argument.

Do ou have ANY proof that he preached against it? For me, i do not know if he did. That is why i am asking those that are assertin that he did if they truly heard, saw or read Kumuyi say so, or it is just hearsay. i am aware many deeperlifers didn't watch TV at a time, also aware that some still do not BTW. But nobody ever told me that Kumuyi told them not to. They ave reasons why they do not or didn't, none of the reasons was ever Kumuyi. AGAIN, i ask, is there any link or proof that Kumuyi said all his church members should not watch or own TV, or this is just hearsay, rumour, legend?

Pastor Kun: And how is what Candour different

Members are not the same as workers or house fellowship venues for one. A church of 100 can have 30 to 50 workers. Also, Candour has not said that KUMUYI banned his members from watching or owning tvs. i want to believe you now the meaning of each word you use in a sentence, or do you just use words loosely? Confirm that you were never aware that deeper life churches have TV inside them?

DrummaBoy: This is quite instructive, Nora. Thanks for it.

You would find the jews stance instructive, even he atheist and the devil's stance as far as it is antitithe. The same Jews do not believe in Jesus, perhaps its also instructive to you.

Goshen360: Olaadegbu will NEVER answer this question. Watch it, he will NEVER!!! And if he tries to, he will either go off the line the question asked or twist the line of question TO SOMETHING ELSE.

Watch it, if you don't believe me!!!

But it has been answered countless times. If i can recollect, it is antitithers tht insist that it must not be money. Tithe has been acceted by God as tithe, whether it was spoils, agric produce, or money.

Candour:

Hmm image, don't milk it nau, I've apologised to Jo already

okay

OLAADEGBU: Do you know why the devil can't stand the seed?

The seed bruises the devil's head all the time.

Pastor Kun: Thanx for coming out to testify about this TV issue that some hypocrites are trying to distort facts about. Even Kumuyi cannot come out to deny this ban on TVs in the past of DL yet some human beings are trying to deny this fact here. On the issue of Kumuyi being a sound bible teacher, I beg to disagree,. If he was so sound there won't be so many errors in his messages, he is at best a very compulsive teacher. On the issue of humility again this is very subjective as there is nothing humble about the huge mega cathedral he is building in gbagada and the other one at there current head office. Also there is nothing humble about the state of the art SUVs Kumuyi uses.

Kunle, you said that Kumuyi banned his members from WATCHING and OWNING tvs. Candour said something different, about house fellowship and worker in the 90s, and somethings about his THINKING.
I need some form of proof that KUMUYI told hischurch members not to watch or own tv. Is this based on hearsay or false witnessing. Jesus said somethings that were similar to but misconstrued by his false witnesses