₦airaland Forum

i'm with Alwaystrue on this too.
It's a matter of revelation and of conscience. To have a clear conscience towards all men. And to be more like Jesus, so much that if the devil ever came by, he will find NOTHING.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

He could go and meet the concerned in school and explain to them. He just might be forgiven, or might get five years imprisonment
Anyways, let him do as God leads him to, he is still a christian no matter the decision he takes.

Sorry oh OP, i feel your condition. Sometimes though, when you come across a mountain, you are either say to the mountain to be removed, or you can decide to circumvent the mountain and keep going your way. You can simply go for your nysc and perhaps get a better PPE in the state you are posted to. Simples. In everything though, you need prayers, who doesn't BTW?

nwuyag: part time, full time??, I thought as much, there is now a money structure in the church. I didn't see all those in the bible tbo and am tired of seeing ppl using any passage in tge bible, be it parable/idiom or straight words to describe thing

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i do not exactly understand what you mean by part time, full time?? But anyway, there has always being diversities of administration in the church. Every one is not the same. God has called us to unity and not necessarily uniformity. Some folks can and need to work full time in ministry. Some folks can work part time in ministry. They are both accepted before God. The early church leaders gave themselves to prayers and the ministry of the Word, and were able to record the success they recorded. It helped them to serve God without much distractions.
Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

You cannot expect the same input or output from someone who leaves home 4am and comes back from work 10pm every day, with someone who's work is in the church praying, evangelising and studying, or someone who is a shift worker and may be on duty at work instead of being in fellowship. Most schools would not consider someone working for some sensitive courses. Most organisations would not fully agree with keeping more than one job. This is all for better productivity. God is not mocked.

Zikkyy: You are talking about the decent education for pastor's children, what about the children of church members funding pastor's activities? what if the church is located in community where members are barely able to feed themselves and their families? abi na only pastor dey enjoy? Anyways, the issue is not about pastor's comfort, the OP is asking if pastors are entitled to wages.

Zikky, the thread is talking about ministers and their pay, not about church members that are not ministers and their care. You need to learn to look at things holistically, not just with an extremist's view of making every minister an Oyedepo. i do not think anyone here has suggested that church members should not have good education. Decent education is not a luxury or comfort as you imply, it is what everybody should have.

not compulsory pastor do all the things church members do na.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.


This is what Christ wants from all His followers.

this is also applicable to pastors having all the fun when some church members are having difficulty finding food. abi i lie?

It is applicable to everybody.

You talk true for here. But that is not to say they are entitled to salary according to scripture. if the church members believe they can afford a salary for pastor no wahala, it's for the church members to decide.

So stop complaining when the church members have decided and are happy with it. Most church members want the best for their elders. i do not think that members of MFM, Winners, DeeperLife, RCCG, Catholic, CEC etc are complaining that their pastors are (probably) being paid salary. Many of them are ready to give their eyes even.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

The pastor is more likely to be on the losing side if he decide to stop work when some street in Lagos can boast of having up to six church.

1Co 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
The early church leaders had the power and choice to stop working if they wanted to, and the church was to take care of them. This is fact and truth.

thehomer: What fallacy did you see me commit? If God's purpose was to be fruitful and multiply, then why did you say the purpose of humans was to praise him? My point is that whatever God's purpose is, you cannot say that it is to be good towards humans. No, God doesn't own human life.

You said "So his purpose wasn't for people to be fruitful and multiply? ". It's a fallacy as i never said that but you are making it seem as if i said that. You don't need false assumptions to make an enquiry. Praise is an inclusion in God's purposes of creating humans. i also mentioned living in victrory and holiness. i simply mentioned this to explain to you that these purposes cannot be fulfilled by an 'altruist' killing babies to fulfil God's purpose. You can't be ruitful and multiply by killing babies too, so anyway you go about it, it just does not fulfill God's purpose for humanity.
The point is that God and man are not the same. God owns human life and that has to be taken into the discussion if we are to take in any Bible passage. We can't only accept the passage that shows God ordering the killing of the Amalekites, and not take in the passages that say that God owns all human life.
Psa 24:1 A Psalm. Of David. The earth is the Lord's, with all its wealth; the world and all the people living in it. (BBE)

Well God should come and tell me himself rather than relying on poor and fallible sources of information like you and the Bible. I don't believe in Brahma either. But if you're going to be believing in Gods, you may as well investigate the other Gods out there.

Psa 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

you are not in position to tell God what to do. he has done has it has pleased Him. If you want to know or understand Him better, you adjust to His terms. God uses humans, the Bible and all of nature. There are millions more who have heard and accepted, you remain infinitesimal in true perspective.
What part of I AM SATISFIED WITH GOD do you not understand? There is no pointr for me to investigate any other God, you may do well to since you are searching.

Is dead if he ever lived.

Jesus is alive.

I have the qualities you've listed above.

2. True love- You do not. God is love.
3. joy-If there is any joy in you, it is at most peripheral. Most unbelievers i know have sorrow in the central. They seek for joy and happiness and hide under drinking and partying, and pursuit of scholarliness to relieve them of their central emptiness and depression.
4. peace- There is no peace for the wicked. Can you do months without doubting your atheism?
5. longsuffering- Do you even know what this means to start with?
6. gentleness- possible if you say so.
7. goodness- Unapproved goodness perhaps.
8. meekness- Obviously not.
9. temperance- i doubt it.

I see no reason to believe that there is such an entity.

i see.

You and I don't share the same idea of what a sin is so you don't have the freedom from sins that I do.

What is the freedom of sin that you have?

Do you have knowledge of God? Can you even have knowledge of an entity that is supposed to be unknowable?

Yep, i do.
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
It is very possible to have the knowledge of God. It is only impossible to fully comprehend Him, just like it is impossible to fill the ocean into a bucket.

If you're just going to throw about things you think others are missing because they don't believe as you do, then I'll throw out other things you're missing because you don't believe as others to.

Good to note that you do not believe in Brahma or know Brahma. You need Jesus, He says He loves you. i've seen so many brilliant people, and not too brilliant people who believe in Jesus and worship Him. i'm certain that you have too, there is nothing precious to lose in believing in and accepting Jesus.

Some folks here are just plain ridiculous and have failed woefully in the second great commandment, to love your neighbour as yourself. i guess it would have been better if some had no Bible like most of the first century christians. So, a christian would need to be soundly drilled and convinced to agree that a minister of the gospel deserves to be paid. He is expected to only perhaps have his basic needs needs met. Basic needs in this case referring to feeding and clothing. There should be no thought for his family, he would not educate and raise his children, he would not send them to good schools, he would not have enough as to be able to do all the things that you want and pray to do, becuase he is a minister abi. What i see is people who have little or no field experience of what service is. They are just here to run mouth as talk is very cheap these days. You want to build house and become landlord of tenantS self, you want to buy car and change cars, buy for your wife and friends, you want to travel for courses, and go for vacation, you pray to be able to give quality education to your loved ones and kids in any part of the world, and to have access to the best medical care possible. But your minister should go and sit down and thank God that he can get breakfast today, shameless christains abound here.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

It is normal christian duty to also minister unto them in carnal things. If you want to be paid and receive income constantly, you should want your neighbour to also receive constantly. You shouldn't be going about campaigning that they should receive only when you feel like giving them cheerfully.
Phi 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
Phi 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
It is evident that the apostles received from church members and that it was their right.

1Co 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
They had the power and choice to stop working if they wanted to, and the church was to take care of them. You do not even need a Bible to know this. Even wicked thieves and politicians know this, but some people are too religious to know this.

debosky: An addendum to Image123.

The issue of whether the belongings ‘belonged’ to Abram is a distraction to be honest - the bible was clear he didn’t consider them his own and rejected them. If you’re arguing that he could have laid claim to them, that is a different matter altogether, but ultimately immaterial in this case.

What is up for debate is whether you can consider spoils of war as the same as salary. My assertion is that you cannot for the following reasons:

1. Abram was not a professional soldier. It may be argued that a soldier’s job was to fight and receive income through spoils as salary. Clearly this wasn’t Abram’s ‘day job’ or ‘occupation’.

2. Abram’s express intention of going to war was not to acquire property for himself, but to rescue Lot and recover Lot’s properties - the recovery of the King of Sodom’s goods was merely incidental and was never Abram’s concern, which is why he returned them to the rightful owner.

3. Abram’s occupation was rearing livestock. He did not go to war with his livestock, but only with his 318 fighting men, Also note that he did not tithe of the men of his household (basically his slaves and his possessions).

4. If the bible recorded that Abram tithed of his livestock, silver and gold referred to in Genesis 13:1, then we may be able to say Abram treated spoils of war no different from his salary. However, without this evidence you are purely speculating.

5. There are numerous passages in the bible showing God does not automatically consider spoils as things to be considered property - in many instances, God says destroy completely (1 Samuel 15) or destroy some, give some to my temple (not tithe to my temple) and stay away from others (Joshua 7) Therefore from biblical examples, unless God deems spoils as belonging to an individual, you cannot make that assertion. Abram certainly didn't consider them as belonging to him.

The issue of who the belongings were is pivotal because you are saying that Abraham tithed of what did not belong to him. He(abraham) had just defeated about four dominant nations.What is salary? Salary is income, addition. The spoils were an addition, an income to Abraham's wealth. The goods and victuals of at least four armies were now his. These are four armies that had oppressed the territory for over a decade BTW. It is pure speculation to say that Abraham never tithed at any other time using his other possessions. You have to be omniscient to say this. the Bible doesn't record this either.

debosky: Jesus claimed possession of the spoils not so? Abram never claimed possession of the spoils, therefore they did not belong to him. He called them the belongings of the King of Sodom. He said the items belonged to the King of Sodom. It doesn't get any clearer than that.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but what happened is clear - the Kings that Abram defeated had previously taken over the possessions of the King of Sodom (and others). Abram returned those possessions to the King of Sodom and never claimed ownership over them.

It is clear what Abram collected from the Kings he defeated: 16 He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people.

It is clear - he collected what King Kedorlaomer and co had taken from the King of Sodom and others, and Lot. At no point did Abram claim any of these. The King of Sodom offered them to Abram, but he refused.

Na you oh, if not, i wouldn't have to go do your reading for you.
In war, there is what is known as rules of engagement. Basically, the victor/conqueror takes the spoils of war as his. Spoils may include lands, livestock, precious metals, people(captives) etc. This is continuously repeated in both secular and Bible history. When armies go to fight, they go with a lot of possession, foodstuff, jewels etc. The victor takes all the stuff of the defeated and adds them to HIS. Like if Sodom had won the war, they will take the goods(spoil) of the five kings. Spoils are usually so much that they may feed a nation like recorded in the days of Elisha and the "we do not well" lepers. Spoils are automatically for the victors. God had to specifically order the Israelites not to take spoils in some of their battles because the default thing is for the victor to possess the goods of the defeated. Look at another instance with David and the Amalekites before i come back to Genesis 14.
1Sa 30:1 And it came to pass, when David and his men were come to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had invaded the south, and Ziklag, and smitten Ziklag, and burned it with fire;
1Sa 30:2 And had taken the women captives, that were therein: they slew not any, either great or small, but carried them away, and went on their way.

Here, the Amalakites took David's people as captives.

1Sa 30:8 And David inquired at the LORD, saying, Shall I pursue after this troop? shall I overtake them? And he answered him, Pursue: for thou shalt surely overtake them, and without fail recover all.
David's primary motive for pursuing the Amalekites was to recover his people. As we read on, we will see that he eventually defeated the Amalekites and spoiled them.


1Sa 30:9 So David went, he and the six hundred men that were with him, and came to the brook Besor, where those that were left behind stayed.
1Sa 30:11 And they found an Egyptian in the field, and brought him to David, and gave him bread, and he did eat; and they made him drink water;
1Sa 30:12 And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs, and two clusters of raisins: and when he had eaten, his spirit came again to him: for he had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights.

He went with 600 men. These 600 men were not eating fruits on the way. They had food and water with them that can last them for days, they probably had money to buy some things if needed. This is how armies operate till date. They go with a lot of provision and boot.y. This is what all armies and even travellers do. We are not talking about armed robbers travelling light, we are talking about warriors. It does not have to be written for anyone to know that. It is common experience and sense. Anyway, this account has it written, and they were able to feed the Egyptian and treat him till he was strong. Some tired 200 soldiers of David waited by the way. You can be sure they were not fasting for those period of days.

1Sa 30:16 And when he had brought him down, behold, they were spread abroad upon all the earth, eating and drinking, and dancing, because of all the great spoil that they had taken out of the land of the Philistines, and out of the land of Judah.
See that has they came to the Amalekites, they were partying. BECAUSE of the great spoil they had taken. They had enough to party with.

1Sa 30:20 And David took all the flocks and the herds, which they drove before those other cattle, and said, This is David's spoil.
Then we see David defeat them and take His spoils. His spoils were not just his family and friends that he came to recover. His spoils were so much that he sent packages to well wishers all over the country. His possession that he went to recover are different, but he also spoiled the Amalekites.

1Sa 30:24 For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part is that goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: they shall part alike.
1Sa 30:26 And when David came to Ziklag, he sent of the spoil unto the elders of Judah, even to his friends, saying, Behold a present for you of the spoil of the enemies of the LORD;
He also sent to them which were in Bethel, and to them which were in south Ramoth, and to them which were in Jattir, And to them which were in Aroer, and to them which were in Siphmoth, and to them which were in Eshtemoa, And to them which were in Rachal, and to them which were in the cities of the Jerahmeelites, and to them which were in the cities of the Kenites, And to them which were in Hormah, and to them which were in Chor-ashan, and to them which were in Athach, And to them which were in Hebron, and to all the places where David himself and his men were wont to haunt.
That was how big his spoils were. Now come to Genesis 14.
Gen 14:1 And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
Gen 14:2 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
Here we see a bigger battle that involved about 9nations. We are told that the four were very strong and had oppressed the others for about 12years.
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
Gen 14:5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim,

The four powerful kings defeated other nations. The account gets zoomed on Sodom because of Abraham's dealing with Sodom, Lot and co. We know how earlier on Lot had moved to Sodom, and it is very likely that Abraham and Lot's families were still in communication as with the neighbouring nations. Anyway, Abraham got to hear about the outcomes of the battles and how Lot was taken captive.
Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
The victors tool Sodom's goods, Gomorrah's goods, Lot's goods, other nations goods. They also had their own goods. Their being victors had made them the owners of all the goods. Someone else has to defeat them to become the owner of all the goods. If Sodom and its confederates had won, they would have taken Chedorlaomer and his powerful friend's goods. But they lost and lost their goods and victuals.

Gen 14:15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
Abraham pursued them and recovered everything, his primary reason for going to battle being Lot. This is just a summary telling us that he went and got the victory. Other details are not stated like how many people died etc. It is after Abraham came back victorious that Melchi and the king of Sodom and whoever else came to meet Abraham. Abraham using his discretion did not touch anything that initially belonged to Sodom or to Lot. But he gave a tithe of every other spoil. This he did on personal reasons/discretion, perhaps from past relationship with Lot and his landlord, and also knowing their wickedness and sinfulness.
Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

The king of Sodom knew he had no legal right again over anything, he came to negotiate with Abraham. If Abraham had said no, there is nothing he could do. He was in the beggar's position perhaps with Lot's relationship to Abraham as some leverage.
Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

We see that Abraham's decision was personal as he did not speak for the men that went with him. If those ones demanded a percentage, it will be well within their spoils right.
Gen 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Junk reporting as usual. Story story by pius okugbere the master story teller. 16million pounds tithe indeed, yet they are milking the poor. Where did this poor get 16million pounds tithe. How much will the rich now give? How much for offering or they don't give offering? Is this another false witness to discredit the tithe?

nice thread. It depends on administration and personal decision. Paul's decision was personal and not a law.Even he sad that they as ministers had power/right to do otherwise.

high

Zikkyy: Why you dey run was hoping you will defend ya definition of tithe

Run ke, i no run na. Na you no serious. If you serious, i fit get your time.

Candour: You're the one misunderstanding, misconstruing and misinterpreting the LORD's clear and concise command there. He said to Obey all that Moses, the Scribes and Pharisees tell you to do since you claim he was talking to you in that chapter. Do you obey his injunction there fully bro?

What you need is to ask the Spirit of God to interpret the scriptures, i also ask that BTW so do not consider it an insult. Your intrpretation of that passage contradicts the teachings of Jesus.
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

We cannot do everything that they say. Because they say and do not. They made doctrines contrary to God's and Jesus Himself attested to that.
Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.


Jesus warned us to BEWARE of the doctrines and teachings of the pharisees. We cannot just do everything they say. It will be incongruent. We ought to obey God rather than man. This was the way the disciples understood it. But as for authority, sitting in the position of authority as the nation's senate and judges, they were to be obeyed.
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

BTW, i never saw any as pharisaic as antitihers on nl.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
They are the ones who would not give tithe or move it with a finger, but they keep telling tithers what and how to do their tithing. They will say you must convert it toso and so. Even the law was more merciful it gave an option of changing one type of tthe to money and then using the money to buy the tithe equivalent. It was considerate, unlike today's pharisees who bind heavy burdens grievous to be borne, telling us what law we must keep and what we must not keep, please let's repent of our ways, and let God have His way with his people.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Candour: Yes my bro. Tithing is a matter of the LAW OF MOSES. What started this line of discussion is you telling me Matt 23:23 binds me to tithe. I told you NEVER as Jesus was speaking to the Jews under the Law. You disagreed and i said ok, if Matt 23:23 'truly' binds me to tithe, Then Matt 23:1-3 binds you to Obey every command from the mouth of Scribes and Pharisees which have become a staggering 613 laws over the years. Lets get the trail pls.

If Spirit leads them to tithe fine. that is your personal revelation bro, NOT MINE. Image, i gave you answers to this line of question some posts ago. Dont try to bring them in again under another guise. Don't force your personal revelation on me and others. The almighty has written into my heart and new nature how to live in Love. Maybe he also wrote Mosaic law of tithing, but since there is no levite or a priest from the tribe of Levi around me, that part of me was not activated.

Not stealing or murdering today for me as a Christian has nothing to do with the law. It's in consonance with my new nature. Are Hindus free to kill today? or you think they also live by the laws of Moses? God gave them a functioning conscience so there's already an inhibitor in them. For me a blood bought child of God, The Spirit of God which lives in me even does a better job than my old conscience in keeping me from being injurious to my neighbor.

James 2:10 says if you keep all the laws and fail in one, you're guilty of all and that is why i informed you have 613 laws in all, are you sure you keep all?

i'm not sure that i remember ever telling you that you are bound to tithe. Tithing is not a matter of just the law of Moses. It has being established that people tithed before Moses's father was born. Tithing for believers today has nothing to do with the law. It's in consonance with our new nature. Our nature is willing to allow scriptures to lead, direct, teach, instruct us. We understand that the Scriptures are ableto make us wise and furnished to all good works. We are both 'keeping' some laws has it has being shown. the thing is now to know why we do what we do. you should not be insisting on making purposes and reasons for other's actions. i have told you why we do what we do, and you have told me yours. Can we now rest, and go home? i can almost bet not, you are not satisfied. Are you God? no. Are you our judge? no. Does our service have to be acceptable to you? no.

Candour: If i am to go by your explanation here, then we shouldn't be having this Discussion because only Farmers and livestock keepers were bound to pay the tithe and i have never been a farmer all my life, dont know about you though. Deut 14:22-29 etc will tell you that.

There was a ritual which you must follow before being re-admmited into society. My bro, it was a law in Isreal whether you call it primary or tertiary.

Only males were circumcised, Does it become less of a law for Isreal?

When Moses, started his proclamation in Deut 5:1, he said 'Hear, O Isreal,...' he didn't ask lepers into one group, farmers into another group etc. He gave laws to Isreal as a whole. Everybody note the ones that concern you.

The question 'is a Christian leper bound to bring the birds for the ritual in Lev 14:4?'

Is a Christian woman to bring 2 pigeons or 2 turtle doves to the sanctuary when she brings her son for dedication?

Sure, i believe we should not be having this discussion at all. It is your continual insistence that is letting us have this discussion. We have severally said to allow every man to be led by God's Spirit but it seems that does not suffice for you. i have no idea about any one being bound to pay the tithe. 'is a Christian leper bound to bring the birds for the ritual in Lev 14:4?' Is the christian bound to do anything? is the christian bound to pray, or to fellowship, or to fast or to give, or to be humble? Is the christian bound to obey the laws of the land where he resides? Should the christian drive around without a driver's license, should a christian travel with an expired or stolen passport? Do any of these things have to be written in the Bible or as the law of Moses? Like i have said, there is a need for a true understanding of the covenants, else we will continue to ask unfounded questions.

debosky: No as in Abram described those spoils of war as belonging to the King of Sodom. I don't know about what you term 'legal' or otherwise, but what I do know is whatwas clearly stated by Abram: - I will accept nothing belonging to you.

Those words establish whose belongings they were - Abram never considered them his own. He never accepted them. My earlier statement is completely factual - at no point did Abram consider the spoils his - they were never his.

As for salary - it is given in exchange for labour/services rendered - this is completely and utterly different from spoils of war, where there is no exchange involved.

Debo, perhaps it will do you well to re-read Genesis 14. Jesus Himself spoiled His enemies, and the spoils belong to Him. It makes it legal. In war, the victor owns the spoils. he has the keys of hell and death, He has all power given unto Him.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Abraham went to battle with five kings in order to get his nephew Lot. These five kings had armies and they had boot.y and possessions. They had stuff with them before they took Sodom and lot's stuff. It was the stuff they had with them that Abraham gave tithe of. The kings and their armies stuff did not belong to Sodom. They were in charge of that region and had oppressed everybody for over ten years. Do read Genesis 14.

debosky: I humbly disagree with this interpretation/analogy. It may apply to other passages, but does not apply to Romans, which clearly says that

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand.

This is unequivocal - it was decided before their birth and before any individual acts - therefore it was not a prediction, which is why the emphasis was placed on even before they were born and before they had done any good or evil. It was predetermined for the purpose of God. This wasn't a case of 'I predict x will behave this way, therefore y will happen' - although such instances exist.

The reason I believe this is the case is what follows in verse 14 : I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

This plainly means God decided - it was not dependent on the latter actions of either Jacob or Esau - God decided he would love Jacob and hate Esau (probably for the greater good of all since Jesus came through Jacob's line). It might be unpalatable, but it what the bible plainly states.

I agree that we shouldn't give up on that note or resort to inaction or just fold our arms, but at the same time we need to recognise that God isn't necessarily fair - what we do know is that God is Sovereign. It is a reminder that even when someone is seemingly 'undeserving' of God's goodness by our own measures, God determines what 'reward'/'benefit' that individual receives. It is not for you and I to decide.

Debo, it was an analogy. i said that it is similar BUT BETTER THAN a projection/prediction/forecast. A projection or prediction was the explanation i was able to use to try and explain it. It is like describing something out of this world using things that we can all more easily grasp. Like, when the prophets were shown a vision or heaven for instance, they will describe it with something we can grasp. They can say they saw a thing like beryl, or like jasper, or like fine brass etc, or that the Lord is like fire, or water, or rock. The rock is not equal to Him but is being used to describe a quality. What God does is more than, more advanced and better than predictions that we make, or graphs and charts that we project. But i used it to kind of describe His foreknowledge. like we can project into ten years time or fifty years and say something about industries or the human body or the economy. God foresaw before the twins were born and made His choice or election. The Genesis accounts clearly show that this election was not forced on them. Jacob missed it for a tangible part of his life, until he did the right things. Hebrews tell us that Esau could have inherited the blessing.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
He was rejected because he found no place of repentance, because he was a profane person. these were things God saw in him before he was born. Jesus saw Peter was going to fall, but He told him to watch and pray so as not to fall. God decided that He would love Jacob, but we have the benefit of the whole of scriptures at our disposal that show us why He made that decision. God would have mercy on who He would have mercy, the Scriptures show us some of those who He will have mercy on.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
The merciful will obtain mercy, except Jesus is lying here. Those that confess and forsake their sins will have mercy.

You are slightly contradictory here - if God is indeed Sovereign, then there is absolutely nothing we can do to obtain mercy if he has decided not to show mercy. Even in instances where the bible states that do x and y and receive mercy, it is not a formula that one can apply to receive mercy. You cannot 'force' God to have mercy or 'compel' him to have mercy.

As subsequent verses state - God must call us, must draw us to him first, must convict us of our sin before we can come to him. All those are acts of mercy in themselves. As I stated earlier, all we can do is respond to those calls - do our part as it were. Beyond that we are powerless. Without God being merciful to us in the first place, we cannot even get into a position where we can receive mercy.

The key here is to recognise that beyond whatever action/inaction of ours, God is Sovereign. We must not try to dilute that sovereign power and ability to pre-decide by saying it's merely a prediction.

Yes there is nothing we can do to obtain mercy if He has decided not to show mercy. But the Scripture teaches that He has decided to show mercy, and searchng the scriptures reveal some of the ways in which we can receive God's mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
i am surer than David that Surely, God's goodness and mercy will follow me ALL THE DAYS of my life. He is good and his mercies endure forever.

thehomer: Oh? So his purpose wasn't for people to be fruitful and multiply? Everything is pointless because if we're talking about morality, there is no reason why a murdering God who is claimed to be moral cannot have his actions assessed.

Why do you haveto border on fallacies and false assumptions? Who said that God's purpose was not for people to be fruitful and multiply? How does being fruitful and multiplying agree with your stance of killing babies being God's purpose? It is not pointless because God owns all human life, an 'altruist' does not own human life. God is acclaimed to be sovereign and omnipotent, man is not.

You do realize that when you ask me to come close to this God of yours, you're asking me to do what you're unwilling to do with Brahma and you analogy also illustrates this fact clearly. The difference being that you're offering me magical entities.

Wrong, God says to draw close to Him. You do not even know what Brahma has to say. God satisfies me, Brahma does not satisfy you.

And here you go again claiming that I'm missing something that you cannot show exists, isn't needed or that I'm not missing at all. So, you on the other hand are missing Acharya, brahmavidya, sandhyavandana, brahmayajna, aupasana, puja, vaisvadeva among others.

Kindly deny and state in front of each of what i listed to start with. Write in front of each, which one does not exist, is not needed, or you are not missing. Tell me which one you have,
1. Jesus,
2. True love,
3. joy,
4. peace,
5. longsuffering,
6. gentleness,
7. goodness,
8. meekness,
9. temperance,
10. the Holy Spirit,
11. freedom from so many sins,
12. knowledge of God among others.
These are just few to start with and are things the human race needs, wants and even desires, unlike the words that you claim that i am missing which i am certain that you neither have.

debosky: No - the spoils of war are something forcefully take them from others, not in return for effort/work. They were never his in the first place. Abram himself denied ownership.

But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’

What do you mean by No. No as in, the spoils of war are not legal or what? Those are the rules of engagement in war. Look through history whether Bible or secular, the spoils belong to the victor, including Jesus. Your salary was not yours in the first place, until you worked for it.
Abraham never denied ownership of his spoils, the spoils were the booty he got from conquering 5 dominant and powerful kings. Lot and Sodom were by the way, and at the mercy of discretion.

debosky: Which tithes? Did he give tithes of his goats, sheep, cattle, etc? Or did he tithe spoils of war which were, in essence, never his in the first place?

Spoils of war belong to the victor/conqueror as legally as your salary belongs to you though from another.

Candour: i Disagree with you bro. Jesus meant exactly that 'all whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do'. It means every single law or ordinance coming out from their mouths or quills must be obeyed. It is not about respect but about unalloyed obedience.

Those same Daniels, Esthers and Nehemiahs were ardent keepers of the law of Moses

Don't dilute our LORD's statement

Don't misunderstand our Lord's statement. Your misunderstanding contradicts te entire chapter and the teachings of our Lord.

Candour: you know you are the one who keeps reminding me of the MOSAIC LAW OF TITHING so i decided to help you be a more faithful law keeper by letting you know there were 613.

My new nature subject to the law of love will not let me steal, curse, murder etc.

Let me help you with some you might check to see if you keep

Deut 22:11
'Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.

Deut 21:18,21
'If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:...........21. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die:so shalt thou put evil away from among you: and all isreal shall hear, and fear'

Lev 19:27
'Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard'

Deut 22:9 says don't plant different seeds together in the same land

Just check the list, you'll see more

Don't worry about inciting jealousy. No body is a child here

It's strange you forgot that we insisted that we are not under the law. It is you that claimed that tithing is strictly under the law, and that if we must tithe we must fulfil all other law, or is it 612 ther laws. You, not us. So, now we get to know that you are also fulfilling some of the laws! Good news. Talk about new nature and law of love appears stale. This were te same reason folks have given for giving tithe. That that is the way God's Spirit leads them, that they do it out of love for God and the church, that it is a principle of life in them.
At the end, the two parties are 'guilty' of obeying some of these 613 laws you brought up for personal reasons. What we need to do is ask you the same questions if you insist. Why not steal or murder, why regard God, why not curse father or mother, why tithe? Don't you know that you might be a debtor to do the law? The problem is that many people, like the OP, have not understood the covenants hence their continual stumble and hypocrisy of contradiction.

Candour: i brought in what happened at Jesus birth so as to show you what he evidently subscribed to. As at when my Lord was a baby, it didn't diminish his Deity. If he was made to pass through it as a baby, It is something he would agree with as an adult. Did or would Jesus Christ have endorsed bringing 2 pigeons @ dedication. an emphatic YES is the answer.

Lev 14:4-5
'Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 5. And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water'

my bro, what Christ asked him to do was more than getting a doctors report. He had take the the birds to the priest and perform rituals with them before being certified clean. read from Lev 14:1-11

Lev 14:1
'And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,'

It was the LORD GOD speaking here so i dont know what you mean by primary laws. These so-called ceremonial laws are in the same category with tithes so which one is primary laws?

What happened at Jesus birth is not in the context of what we were telling Gosh about the words of Jesus being yes and amen. Gosh was saying some of Jesus' words were wrong or invalid. i have told you i do not intend to discuss this issue in detail, so bringing up various issues would be overlooked/ignored. sorry.
i didn't say Jesus was only asking for a doctor's report or its like. i was only showing the unobvious reason why Jesus said to go for a testimony so as to be able to be absorbed into society again. Its similar to a church telling a couple to get a marriage certificate from court. It has to do with the prevalent law of the land. These is verily in line with the new testament. By primary, they do not apply to everyone but lepers.

Hmmm, it is morally wrong because it is wrong.
i'll re-read that later, perhaps it will make sense.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Moses seat smply means the position of authority, legislature, as judge, interpreting the law. They were the Sanhedrin. The followers of Jesus are expected to obey leadership/constituted authority. The powers that be are ordained of God. The pharisees were the leaders and elders of Israel and were to be held in that regard. Children of God are not to become so pompous that they do not regard/respect authority for whatever reasn e.g corruption, hypocrisy, immorality etc. A true chrstian cannot/should not insult or abuse presidents r governors or administrators whether on paper or other media. Nevertheless, we are not to behave like them. Respet and obedience des not mean that you have to behave like them. We can be the Daniels and Esthers and Nehemiahs of our own generation.
Beware of the leaven of Herod nd of the pharisees.

Candour: haba Image, which kind work you wan give me so? Just pick your bible and start reading from Exodus 12:43 down to Deut 27:26. The laws come intermittently. I'm sure you'll get most of them if not all if you do it painstakingly. you can Google it up yourself or visit the link below for a comprehensive gist about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

cheers and happy reading

Wonderful. i observed that these 613 laws are from Genesis to Deuteronomy. -i'm guessing we can freely quote outside that, like malachi and nehemaih and co and we would not be harrassed for trying to obey some 613.
Among the 613, i noticed to know that there is a God, do not murder, do not steal, do not curse father and mother. Forgot to even check for tithe, sorry, i will go back to check. Now, i know that i obey this four. Is there any f these four that you also obey? If yes, which? Thanks, and please stop constantly comparing me to bidam or anyone. We are all fearfully and wonderfully created and should not incite others to envy, jealousy or its likes, please. If there are corrections you want to make, go n and make them one on one. God bless you.

Candour: When Jesus was presented in the temple as a baby, his mother offered 2 pigeons in deference to the laws of Moses(Lev 12:1-3, Luke 2:23-24). How many pigeons or turtle doves do your church members bring during dedication?

When Jesus cleansed a leper in Matt 8:4, he asked him to go to the priest and obey the law of Moses (Lev 14:4). Do those healed of leprosy in your church bring these items? If you say no leper has been cured in your church, if they get cured tommorow, will you ask them to obey this law since Christ expressly ORDERED this cured man to obey this law?

My bro, the cross made all the difference and that is what you MUST realise

First paragraph has nothing to do with what Jesus said or the context of the words of Jesus. Lets not lump things up.


Matthew 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Here is a ceremonial law that lepers were told to follow to ascertain their well being. Lepers were cut off from the populace and unclean. They had to go to the priests to be certified clean and free to mingle with society. Today too, their is nohing wrong with obeying constituted authority like doctor's report, birth or death certificate, driver's licence, referral forms etc. They are no God's primary laws but are necessary for the society.

Leviticus 14:11 And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Jesus still wants us to obey the law of whtever land we are in as long as it does no oppose God like idolatry or something.

Zikkyy: Don't ask me jor the merriam webster definition says "tithe is a tenth part of.." abi you want to deny you are not the one that provided the MW reference

Anyways, now that you are willing to learn i can tell you tithe is not a tenth and it is not 10%. "it is a tenth part of.." or "the tenth item" (according to scriptures o! i no dey use dictionary to define tithe )

Okay, tithe is not a tenth, but it is a tenth part of, or the tenth. i see. i will be replying your more serious posts.

Candour: Can u answer the questions I asked in my post you quoted?

613 laws of Moses,Scribes,Pharisees, why pick only tithe? What happened to the others?

errmmm, i did not pick only tithe, the thread boiled down to only tithe. Can i see this particular list of laws, i keep hearing the number. Can we have them on this thread, thanks.

double post

Bidam: Thank God,they are now shifting.

Goshen360: The way and manner you handle the word of truth baffle me at times. So because something is "the words of Christ", we should just follow it. Do you know how many things came out of the mouth of Christ that you cannot follow? I have told you how to understand this your Matthew 23:23 but you close your eyes to the truth - just replace scribes and pharisees with the church, body of Christ, disciples, apostles and read it again.

Thank God oh Bidam, though we still need to intercede so that the likes of Gosh can stop posting ridiculous jargon as the above. How would any follower of Jesus say we should not and cannot follow the words of Jesus. i guess we should follpw him instead or we should hope on him to instruct us on which one to follow nd which one is rubbish. i'm expecting some christains that will like his post as well, so ludicrous i initially chose not to believe my eyes or comment on it.

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