₦airaland Forum

fumisko: it is true that d holyspirit is becomes indwellin in us at salvation from there we have to begin to learn his voice bcus he is a spiritual being. many people wld always look for loud voice speaking to them that does also happen but except when chosenby the holyspirit. rememba he is a person(spiritual being) he is not just a feeling or power,he is God(D very spirit of God. he spks usually as an inward witness he can use your conscience sometimes you just know that you know that he wants you to do this or that sometimes he wont evn tel u but at d end u cant deny that dat decisions u took was spirit led.but to fellowship with him at that level u r asking is nt cheap u must opt 4 a life of consecration(outright holines),fellowships wit him daily(say 1hr) tel him how much u luv him n want to know him u must b given in to fasting also tell him u wantt to spk in tongues cus he honored me no 1 prayed 4me i was praying 1 day n he visited me i was bursting out an unknown lannguage n if i dared try to stop it dat sym power of d holyspirit wld shake me vigorously so i had to continue i had anoda of such encounters d holyspirit as fire or oil i cnt describe wen listening to a pst chris oyakilome message in my room though am nt a member of christ embassy n whether i dnt agree wit al he says i hv a prove n cant deny d annointing in his lyf it was mad as i felt God's power tro me.sin irritates him n sends him packing so u must conscious dat der is a being u must not hurt him. u can also xperience his MANIFEST presence in ur prayer alter as u pray in tongues or worship God sometimes u cant stand up frm d ground cus he has so filled u at dat point sometimes u feel his power surge through u, come across visions n so much mre u guys can evn begin to tlk him n he wld ansa.but rememba 4 wateva level u wld eva get to know him u must b ready to seek him to dat xtent.if u must truly know him as real in ur lyf its nt so cheap he knows those who r truly hungry4 him only doz ppl will he manifest himself to ifnot he wld jst remain in us n do lytl or nofin.trust me he is fun. am spking from my own xperienc of abt 6months now i sought him anyhow anywere in d toilet anywere crying i want 2truly know u as1 dat truly exist.with 3days fasting weekly now and daily praying in tongues or singing in d spirit(in tongues) or worshipin 4 at least 1hour daily aside your normal morning n night devotions n daily bible study.d holyspirit is God(ur own spirit is who? is it not u?) so dont let any1 lie to u d holyspirit can b worshipped n luvd cus his d spirit of God. get books on d holyspirit by kathryn kuhlman and bennyhinn. God bless

confirmed.

na wa oh, people like osisu just took this thing like a 4unit course sha. Abi the groom jilt you? Don't bother oh, ain't curious enough for an answer.

^mamma, you're very welcome. Long time.

[quote author=tpia@]and does this wedding look like it was held in deeper life? [/quote]it seems the OP says it was. However its not. strange in the deeper life occasions in America. They wear these things there and the administration seems okay with it. Its not a eye opener or a first time in history event except for those who are ignorant of these.

Bidam: Good job@image, more grace bro.. to add more on repentance: Acts 3:19 "repent and return" The Greek term "repent" means a change of mind. This is an aorist active imperative of metanoeō. The Hebrew term for repentance means "change of action" ("return" [emistrephō] may reflect the Hebrew "turn" shub, cf. Num. 30:36; Deut. 30:2,10) in the Septuagint. Repentance is a necessary covenant item in salvation along with faith (cf. Mark 1:15 and Acts 3:16,19; 20:21). Acts mentions it often (cf. Peter – 2:38; 3:19,26 and Paul – 14:15; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). Repentance is indispensable (cf. Luke 13:3 and II Peter 3:9). It is basically a willingness to change. It is a both a human volitional act and a gift of God (cf. Acts 5:31; 11:18; II Tim. 2:25)

Thanks my brother.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

No man has an excuse, whether jew or gentile, whosoever judges another. Judge in this context is condemn. It is the same context as when Jesus said "Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: "
There is no excuse to condemn another person when you are also doing the same thing. One should be very careful to condemn another. there are folks who are quick to label and condemn others. They feel so right that they get on a blind lane, and are ready to crush anyone on their path, and that disagrees with them. The scripture teaches us to be careful, even if it is confirmed that it is the devil himself that we are confronting. Devil is already condemned and judged by God, your fellow man is not, and should not be condemned by you no matter how right you are.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
(BBE) Now when Michael, one of the chief angels, was fighting against the Evil One for the body of Moses, fearing to make use of violent words against him, he only said, May the Lord be your judge.
(GNB) Not even the chief angel Michael did this. In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Paul said he and his fellows were SURE that the judgement of God is according to truth. He was sure that sinners were worthy of death and of anguish. Many christians today claim not to be sure if a loving God will punish anybody. paul was sure it was a righteous thing.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The christian is on a narrow road. Each believer should be careful and not rush through, because rushing through a narrow road puts you and other road users at risk. A christian should not be presumptuous. And if you are going to judge another, make sure that you are not doing the same things i.e that you are without sin.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

God is good. His tender mercies remain over ALL His works. He allows people to have good health, to pass exams, to get good jobs, to live long and to prosper, who do not know Him or even regard Him. Everything God does is for our repentance, and growth. If He chastises or punishes, it is to draw us closer. If He does good to you, it is still to draw you close. many people think that they are propering because they are doing good. The verse teaches that you are actually prospering so that you will do good, not necessarily because you have done good.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

There is a great day coming, it is a day of judgement. People except to fall down and die immediately they do wrong, but God does not work that way. He has a plan and a working time-table.
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
We should be led by the Spirit of God and obedience to His Word, not led by happenings around us. That you are prospering or being promoted is no guarantee that God is happy with you. That God sends you manna and water out of the rock is never an indication that God is pleased with you. God is not mocked, be godly, whatever a man sows he will reap.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

The christian is in race of patience and endurance. Let us run with patience the race. Don't run by sight or by result. Don't run by miracle or favour. Patiently continue DOING well.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

God is angry with the unrighteous, and has we have seen in chapter 1, debate(quarrelsome and long argument) is unrighteousness. It is the same thing as being contentious. Some people enjoy arguments and disputes. They are ready to pull down and scatter the church. Some even take it as a calling/ministry. There is indignation and wrath awaiting anyone that is contentious and disobedient to the Word of God. Jesus Christ said that the Word of God is truth.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Everyone has their rewards. believers are not saved to be indolent, they are to OCCUPY till Jesus comes. Be occupied by working good, doing good. You will be rewarded by what you do, not by what Jesus or God has done. Having God's imparted righteousness is not a licence to do nothing or do unrighteousness. There is glory, honour, peace, eternal life etc in fullness for EVERY MAN that works good whoever you may be, jew or greek/gentile. Just like at present God gives us glory to glory, honours us, gives us peace, and eternal life.But in that day, it will be in fullness. Working good is premised and founded on salvation. There is a power of God unto salvation, a foundation on the Rock, before one begins to build or work good. you cannot just be working good baselessly(without salvation, being on the Rock), and expect to be rewarded with glory, honour, peace and eternal life. The foundation has to be initially laid, else your building no matter how costly and beautiful will collapse when the storm of God's wrath comes.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

God is going to reward everyone accordingly whether you are old or young, Jew or Greek, male or female etc. The phrase "there is no respect of persons with God" simply means that God is not partial. He's not going to permit you to do wrong and go unpunished because you are Peter's son, or you are even Moses. He is ready to kill Moses'son if he does not comply. He is going to punish Moses from entering Canaan if Moses does wrong. he is going to drive out Adam and eve even if they are the only ones in the earth. The phrase does not mean that God does not recognise or esteem people. Abraham and Sanballat are not on the same level before God. Peter and Barnabas the robber cannot be expecting the same thing from God. God honours and distinguishes His own. but He will not tolerate Abraham or Peter or anyone to do wrong.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

As many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law. whether they are in billions or in tens. God is not lonely. He has an innumerable host of heaven. The whole earth and humanity is lighter than dust before God.Psa 62:9 and Isa 40:15. And as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. God is the Judge of the whole earth, He is not afraid. Infact, looking at past judgements like the percentage of Israelites that came out of Egypt and entered Canaan. 2people out of more than 100,000 to be modest. this is like about 0.002%. Think about the percentage that survived the flood, 8people in allegedly the whole world. And being a God that does not change, He can do it again.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

here is actually a clause in bracket, which in reality is impossible. The doers of the law shall be justified, but Bible study shows that know one can do the law to satisfaction and justification. So, actually, you are not justified by hearing the law which is where the jew may want to score himself a pass mark. The doer of the law is humanly impossible. jesus Himself said none of the Jews keep the law. Paul said all had come short. So there has to be another route to justification. Paul is steadily building his point here that the roads known to justification were closed, and that they needed to take the "new" road, justification by faith. this would be established subsequently.

Rom 2:14 For [size=13pt]when[/size] the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The operative word to consider is WHEN. Many people read "For the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" in meaning. They forget the when When the gentiles DO the things contained in the law. This is when they show the WORK of the law written in their hearts. But in most cases, the gentiles do not do by nature the things contained in the law. They steal, they commit idolatry, they lie, etc. Gentiles who fear God and are devout like the Euthopian eunuch or Cornelius are not very many. God in His mercies, finds a way of bringing such proselytes into His truth so that they will not perish without the law. their are people that will perish whether they have the law or not. What could save them from perishing is justification.

rati ken: Someone correct me if am wrong but I cannot see Pastor Kumuyi in any of the pictures. Maybe its too early to assume John had his consent. We need to hear the church's response to this before making assumptions. Besides, the write-up indicated the wedding was in a deeperlife church but omitted the location.
Personally, I think there is more to what i read. This man of God cannot boldly spearhead negations to long standing doctrines even if he is indifferent to John's position or disposition. Even he wants a change, I would not expect him to start it with his son.

I am only scared that this issue if not properly handled will negatively impact the youth of that church who still see things in black and white. The rebellion will be uncontrolled... and they might end up with wrong choices in a bid to negate the doctrines forced on them. No matter how we look at it, those doctrines have no negative impact on our societal values but the opposite might.

For the records, I disagree with lots of the doctrines.

Pastor Kumuyi is in the OP's picture with the wife. Even if he no gree, courtesy demands that he should be there na. If he no come, my people go still complain. And i know it is something Kumuyi can do. It's also a deeper life church from the story. There are very fine deeper life churches even in Nigeria. You need to see one at Port Harcourt, and even the one they are building at Gbagada. They do these things, just that they are not freaked or consumed with them. Perhaps, people need to be more educated about this people or something, everything is strange even to lazy onesw in the denomination. But i thought with all the live broadcast that Kumuyi does to open their eyes, they should be more open minded now. If Kumuyi laugh sef, some people will be offended and leave. They just want him in their mould like they are his god. i've heard people gnashing their teeth for normal things like kumuyi using a glass pulpit, to using wireless microphone, to walking around while preaching, to not wearing suit to preach, to preaching at his wife's burial, to marrying another wife after the first id dead, If Kumuyi change Monday service to Tuesday, some people will quit the church. It's crazy, are you God? Kumuyi travels round the world, and is very aware of the happenings in his denomination and in other churches where he is gladly received. Haters will never visit his church since 1970 and will continue vomitting, while ignorant and lazy members would continue leaving. The church of Christ is marching on, and not even the gates of hell can do nada about it.

chizel: @olowoTee,we are not trying to judge or conclude here about who will enter heaven or not but then I want you to cast your mind to the bible about what Christ refer to as hypocrisy,the bible also state that anyone who could not be able to take care of his family is an unbeliever,what am saying in essence is that doctrines of the church should not be made for some people and not for all,if there is anybody who should show the world where the deeper life stands in doctrine,that person should be pastor kumuyi and his household,eventhough a pastors son must not be judged on the conditition that his father is a pastor,but then if other members of the church should strictly adhere to the doctrines of the church as being teached by pastor kummuyi himself,I don't see the reason why it should be the pastors son that will violet such doctrines and his father the teacher and preacher of the doctrine should endorse of it,bcs for to have appeared in the pictures of the wedding shows that he was not against the wedding and all it's contents.again need I remind you that prophet Eli was a rightous man before God,but then he was not spared of the wrath of God on the day that God visited his children for their sins.if deeper life has decided that it's time for them to do away with some of their doctrines,they should come out openly and say it instead of telling us that eventhough all animals are equal,there are ones that are more equal than others,which is double standerd.the major problem the Christendoms in Nigeria are having today is the issue of not seeing anything bad in what our different churches do eventhough it runs foul of what the church preaches but will be in a haste to condemn the other which the person is not a member forgetting that Christ prayed that he wished that his body should be one,and Christendom is that body of Christ which our lord prayed that he should be one.a word is enough for the wise

but this is not new news in many deeper life churches in America. They do these and more at their weddings. i don't get, you are talking of divine judgement and whatever. Are you saying that God is against what has been done? Are you saying Kumuyi should act as a clog in the wheel of the son's wedding or what? There are different administrations but one spirit. the way a church is being administered may differ from location to location. The important thing, or like my deeper life friend on the forum puts it, the ESSENTIAL things are what should be held on to and earnestly contended for. Not fighting tooth and nail for wedding gown or no wedding gown. They have their lives to live, you can't/shouldn't force a horse to drink water.

shdemidemi: Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

We must understand that this whole chapter is directed to the gentile believers in the church, Paul was making a point to them that once you are outside God unnatural things become natural to you. He is making them know they are of no excuse cos the divinity of God is clear to see.

i don't know why you say that a particular chapter is directed to gentiles or something. The whole book is an epistle meant for public reading and for the benefit of the hearer. It clearly even stated "TO ALL that are in Rome". There were Jews also in Rome BTW, and there were Jewish Romans like Paul. The epistle applies to anyone that considers himself beloved of God.
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Like God told Peter not to call what was now clean common, i ought to tell you not to put asunder what God has joined together. In the kingdom of God, there is no Jew or Gentile, but they are all joined together by God as one.
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Lets stop all this carnal separation that Peter was doing and that you are still doing, lets learn from thee mistakes of others.

shdemidemi: Paul did not preach repentance neither did he teach born again. The word repent was coined from re and pent, pent means at the top. The jews were once at the to, so they can re-pent. e.g If I have not called your phone before I cannot say I want to call again. The jews are new in this, they were never at the pent, they were not 'born' before, so they can't be born again. All you would find in the book of Paul is believe. That verse says-

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The heart of the gospel given to Paul that we must believe is in 1 cor 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You cannot say Paul did not preach repentance, here is Paul below preaching repentance.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
He said God is commanding all men everywhere to repent. Jesus said repentance should be preached.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Paul was giving a summary of his mission work to King Agrippa, hear what he said.
Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that THAT THEY SHOULD REPENT and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Here is his summary to some church leaders below
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

shdemidemi: The church age gospel is not the message Jesus Christ preached. It is not a message of true repentance.

The "Kingdom Gospel" was the gospel preached during Christ's earthly ministry. The heart of this gospel was when Jesus asked the twelve disciples back in Matthew 16, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" And, of course, some said, "You’re John the Baptist, some think you’re one of the prophets." Then He came back and said, "But whom do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God." Period. And that’s all these Jews back here in the Four Gospels had to believe for salvation. So the Kingdom Gospel is that Jesus was the Christ. He was the Son of God. And He was offering Israel the glories of the earthly Kingdom, promised all the way up through the Old Testament.

Whatever you are saying here is not in the Bible. i will not dwell much on it as it will detract away from Romans. The Bible does not differentiate the gospel, it actually calls any other gospel the fake. The gospel of Christ is the gospel of God and is the gospel to be preached.
Gala 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gala 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gala 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gala 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Jesus Christ said this gospel of the kingdom will be preached until the end.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When He was leaving earth after resurrection, He gave the mandate to preach the gospel.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke is clear about what is to be preached.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem
It is to be preached IN ALL NATIONS. It is a paraphrase of Matthew28v19 and Mark 16v15. It is what Jesus preached, John Baptist preached, and what the disciples preached.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The beginning of the gospel is from when John started preaching repentance, according to Mark.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
If Mark says it is the beginning of the gospel of Christ, and Paul says he is not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, the power of God to salvation, it is only proper that one submits to the clear word of God and renew the mind, instead of being dogmatic.
Here are John baptist, Jesus, and the disciples preaching repentance.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Like i have already said on Romans 1v16, the gospel includes repenting and believing. The two must go hand in hand. It is the power unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.
repentance and believing go hand in hand. One is not to be done without the other. If one believes without repentance(the gospel), there is no salvation. The gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation to everyone that believes. If one repents without believing, there is also no salvation. It's like hydrogen and oxygen required in the appropriate proportion to produce water.

shdemidemi: The question is, did they keep to this agreement? Asides Cornelius, where was it recorded that Peter taught the gentiles boldly?

shdemidemi: The church age gospel is not the message Jesus Christ preached. It is not a message of true repentance.

The "Kingdom Gospel" was the gospel preached during Christ's earthly ministry. The heart of this gospel was when Jesus asked the twelve disciples back in Matthew 16, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" And, of course, some said, "You’re John the Baptist, some think you’re one of the prophets." Then He came back and said, "But whom do you say that I am?" And Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God." Period. And that’s all these Jews back here in the Four Gospels had to believe for salvation. So the Kingdom Gospel is that Jesus was the Christ. He was the Son of God. And He was offering Israel the glories of the earthly Kingdom, promised all the way up through the Old Testament.

shdemidemi: Paul did not preach repentance neither did he teach born again. The word repent was coined from re and pent, pent means at the top. The jews were once at the to, so they can re-pent. e.g If I have not called your phone before I cannot say I want to call again. The jews are new in this, they were never at the pent, they were not 'born' before, so they can't be born again. All you would find in the book of Paul is believe. That verse says-

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The heart of the gospel given to Paul that we must believe is in 1 cor 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

shdemidemi: Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith

The righteousness and power of God is revealed in the gospel from other faiths to the faith in God. The just also means the righteous, the verse simply says the man that is in the right books of God shall live by the faith in Christ through this gospel.

shdemidemi: Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

We must understand that this whole chapter is directed to the gentile believers in the church, Paul was making a point to them that once you are outside God unnatural things become natural to you. He is making them know they are of no excuse cos the divinity of God is clear to see.

shdemidemi: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Apostle Paul succeeded in convincing these gentile believers that they are guilty and worthy of death in this first chapter. Hopefully the Image123 will put up chapter 2 where Paul will focus on the Jewish believers that believe they have a right standing with God by virtue of having the law.

Like i initially said, the thread(my posts in the thread) are not exactly a commentary, but just a pointing out of salient points from the book. It is not exactly a complete interpretation or explanation of the passages like in commentary style. i'm open to learning, and i hope you are, and all those lurking too. Making baseless and unfounded claims would not help in the process. However, i will try to respond to your queries and arguments. Thanks.

Human beings, what must be done to please you? If they no wear, you they complain heavily. When they wear, you still dey complain seriously. If the man did not attend the child's wedding now, you will still be the ones to stone him. Now, he attended joyfully, na still story story. This life sha. While Kumuyi may not totally agree with everything in that picture, wedding and even the church, there aree times one should simply step back/aside. If he use heavy hand, you will say he is legalistic, if he permit, it is still you that will say he compromise. i as a person highly commend the efforts of deeper life church at not holding on to traditions of men as doctrine. There are many churches with faulty practices that they hold on to because that is the tradition of their church, that is they way their founder taught it, and understood it. Humility is the ability to accept that you were wrong, and that Kumuyi has. Perhaps, the old standards are not wrong but you simply cannot force grown ups especially over flimsy issues. i've seen more extravagant deeper life weddings BTW. The deeper life churches in America use wedding gowns, wear hats etc, its not news or surprising except to those ignorant fellows like many on this thread who have 1975 notions of deeperlife.
Happy Married Life to the couple, they have been trained up in the way of truth.

shdemidemi: Not much to disagree with so far, I can only advise that you explain the verse without too much inference. Please stick to what Paul is saying as you go on.

I have a problem with your last statement, 'So also, the other apostles preached to everybody too. Peter for instance brought Cornelius the gentile and his household to Christ'. On the contrary, the scripture says something else. Christ had given the disciples the mandate to preach the gospel to everyone in Acts 1, but none of the disciples did-
Acts 11:19
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

God had to show Peter again that things have changed- The same God that made it forbidden for a Jew to eat creeping things, birds of the air, four footed beast now says what I call clean, don't call unclean. Peter got the message, so when Paul got to the scene to say he was sent to gentiles, it was no more new. But, even after Peter knew that the gentiles are now part of the fold, he was too scared to be seen with gentiles.

Welcome,you should have no problem with the statement. The fact still remains that the other apostles preached to everybody too. Peter for instance brought Cornelius the gentile and his household to Christ. These are biblical facts. Peter preached to gentile Cornelius, the apostles wrote letters to GENTILES and sent brethren with Paul and Barnabas.
Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
And their lives did not end in Acts 11 or even in chapter 28.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Actually, the epistle to the Romans is the longest of all the epistles. It is a detailed explanation of the gospel. The gospel is the message Jesus Christ preached. It is a message of true repentance.
Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin
When Paul says he is not ashamed of preaching the gospel, he is basically saying that he is not ashamed of preaching repentance. Repentance is not a very popular word in the old testament, it appears once in the KJV. But it is what John the baptist came preaching, what Jesus came preaching, and what He said should be preached when He was taken up to heaven.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Many preachers today are shy of preaching repentance, not Paul. The gospel is the power of God to salvation. The gospel is to anyone that believes. As seen in other scriptures, repentance and believing go hand in hand. One is not to be done without the other. If one believes without repentance(the gospel), there is no salvation. The gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation to everyone that believes. If one repents without believing, there is also no salvation. It's like hydrogen and oxygen required in the appropriate proportion to produce water. Notice that Paul, who started in verse 1 with the gospel of God, now affirms it to be the gospel of Christ. Indeed the gospel of God is the gospel of His Son. Whatever belongs to the Father belongs to the Son, and they are seemlessly and interchangeably used in a way no other is/can be.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.
It is in this act that the righteousness of God is revealed. It is as you repent that God's righteousness is revealed to you. It is in the gospel that the righteousness of God is revealed to you. The righteousness of God is different from self righteousness. Self righteousness is as filthy rag before God. But the righteousness of God, the one Jesus said to seek in Matthew6, it is revealed as we repent and believe, from faith to faith. That is, it is in stages. As you grow in faith, the righteousness of God is revealed the more. What God may allow a little baby believer to 'indulge' in, He may be unhappy with another more mature believer to whom more righteousness has been revealed. Notice the phrase "as it is written". It is written is a guiding principle for Christ, and for all His true followers. The phrase is referring to the authority and inerrant authenticity of what is written in the Holy Scriptures(the Old Testament to be precise). The Old Testament Scriptures was the first century christian's more sure Word that they took heed to. It wasn't some abandoned book for old-school jews. It was the compulsory tenet and creed of every believer, the Jews first and also the Gentiles. It was the higher authority that the apostles used in settling their arguments if any.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Paul is not ashamed of the gospel because in it the righteousness of God is revealed. There is no complete revelation of God's righteousness without the WRATH of God. Some psychologists think the smart thing is for God to reveal His love and blessings only. This is a perverted gospel, a compromised gospel, another gospel. The real gospel shows that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. A gospel that preaches wrath is scarce today. God is angry against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The eternal power of God is demonstrated in many of the physical and visible things around us. An observation of the things around us in nature and in creation show that there is a God. God can be understood using these things. When Jesus was on earth, He showed us the Father, He demonstrated the things of God by using illustrations that the people of all ages were familiar with. He used trees, seeds, animals, mountains, rain, music, storm, houses, bottles, to show and explain the nature of God.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Analogies and illustrations are analogies and illustrations. They are not God but used to show and explain God to us. Many people abuse, disuse and misuse instead of putting to right use. Jesus put to right use and we are to follow Him. Some others take up analogies and illustrations and fault them, concluding that they have faulted God.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
God gave them up. What a man sows is what he reaps. God ALSO gave them up because they gave Him up. God gives up those that give up on Him, never give up. People changed the truth of God into a lie! The truth that makes others free can be turned into a lie by some. Jesus Christ said that some people made the Word of God of no effect. It is possible to make the Word of God of no effect or value, it is possible for the Word of God not to profit you.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Each person needs to be careful so that God's Word can profit instead of kill/destroy you. As useful as water and fire can be, they can be very destructive and of disadvantage, so also the Word and truth of God.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Again, it is possible for God to give someone up. And when one goes against nature, there are consequences.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
The revelation of the gospel and righteousness of God opens up so many things that were even previously unknown to be sin. It reveals God's wrath and love in full. It also reveals satan the devil and all unrighteousness. In the old testament Bible, the devil is relatively unknown unlike today. He is hardly mentioned directly but is fully revealed and exposed in the new testament Bible. So also, there are more sins to avoid, kind of added to the syllabus in the new testament. Jesus gave such illustrations in the sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. The new testament believer has to EARNESTLY contend and WRESTLE spiritually. He is assured of victory like the Israelites were assured of victory before entering Canaan. But he has to fight the good fight, he has to flee many a times too, he also must follow and pursue, and labour to enter into rest. He MUST avoid all unrighteousness. Some of ALL are listed in this passage. A true christian should examine himself/herself and grow in victory, and in the quest for perfection as these things are being revealed.
Maliciousness is a desire to cause deliberate harm or pain to another person, whether spiritually or physically. This is unrighteousness.
Envy/covetousness/jealousy is unrighteous. Debate/prolonged argument is a work of the flesh and is unrighteousness. A christian should be filled with the Spirit, not with unrighteousness. Whisperers/rumor mongers are also discouraged.

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents
Backbiters are those who make spiteful or slanderous comments about somebody who is not present. This is unrighteous.
Inventors of evil things and those disobedient to parents are also in the danger of unrighteousness.

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
A true christian should seek understanding and wisdom. Those who are without understanding, foolish, not discerning, are in danger of unrighteousness. So also are covenant breakers. There are many marriage covenant breaking christains today. Some break their promises in business or their vows to God. All these is unrighteous before God, says Paul.


Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This last verse says that those who commit any of the above listed are WORTHY of death. That is, they deserve to die, they should be punished. The soul that sins shall die. Also having pleasure in sin is wrong. Many people sin by proxy. Some people will never commit adultery, but have pleasure in watching adulterers, fornicators, rapi.sts, beastiality whether live, or through a keyhole, or on the media. Some others will never fight but are very happy when evil happens to their 'enemy' in the neighbourhood or office, like if he got robbed or beaten or abused. All these is unrighteousness. Obviously, there is a lot to contend with, and a high standard to attain. But there is great grace available, both from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

lobatan oh. Miracle for right hand, magic for left hand?

This thread is primarily on the book of Romans. That is the epistle of Paul the apostle to the Romans. It is not exactly a commentary, verse by verse, neither is it a summary. It is a work pointing out salient points to the contemporary reader and Christian. i have and will try the best to keep it simple and straight-forward as possible to the simple, i hope for God's grace to complete the work. i'll try to take it chapter by chapter. The book reveals the gospel and passion for salvation as captured in the lyrics below;
Everyday they pass me by,
I can see it in their eyes.
Empty people filled with care,
Headed who knows where?
On they go through private pain,
Living fear to fear.
Laughter hides their silent cries,
Only Jesus hears.

People need the Lord, people need the Lord.
At the end of broken dreams, He's the open door.
People need the Lord, people need the Lord.
When will we realize, people need the Lord?

We are called to take His light
To a world where wrong seems right.
What could be too great a cost
For sharing Life with one who's lost?
Through His love our hearts can feel
All the grief they bear.
They must hear the Words of Life
Only we can share.

People need the Lord, people need the Lord
At the end of broken dreams, He's the open door.
People need the Lord, people need the Lord.
When will we realize that we must give our lives,
For people need the Lord.

It was such passion as Paul shared for even folks he had never met. Now the book is not just the letter of Paul the apostle to the Romans, but as it is fondly called, the epistle of Paul the apostle to the Romans. A letter connotes something private,but an epistle is public, with the aim of being publicly read aloud. The book shares Paul's romance with the Romans, a love divinely arranged from birth as it were. Do note that Paul himself was a Roman too as well as an Israelite.(Acts 22.25-28). i do hope that as you read through, you can find it in you to reexamine your commitment to Christ, and reconfirm your relationships with other believers in Christ’s body.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Paul was a servant of Jesus Christ, not a rival or fellow contestant. He was called to be an apostle, meaning that he did not send himself or assume the office, rather he was appointed. And he was separated unto the gospel of God. Anyone God is going to use has to be separated.

Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,)
The gospel of God had been earlier promised by God by His prophets. It was not something strange to anyone who cares to read the Holy Scriptures. What Paul refers to as Scriptures in this verse is actually what we know today as the Old Testament portion of the Bible. In Paul's days, there was no name as that. When one mentions scriptures, like when Jesus says "Search the Scriptures" and "And the Scripture cannot be broken", what was in the mind of the speaker and the hearers was Genesis to Malachi. Today, many think that Matthew to Revelation are more authentic as Scriptures, but they were not even known by the time the Holy Ghost was sent to the disciples. Not only is Genesis to Malachi Scriptures, they are the Holy Scriptures according to this verse. that is, they were considered sacred and morally blameless by Paul and other disciples of Jesus.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Paul's style of writing is not exactly the average writer's style. You sort of had to follow him closely and carefully to connect the points. Paul says that the gospel of God is concerning Jesus Christ our Lord. In this verse, he states for granted and as a matter of fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is perhaps a normal thing to say today, but was tingling to say in his days. The Jews almost stoned Jesus Himself when He made such claim. This hints that the readers/recipients had a prior knowledge of who God is, who Jesus is, and the salvation message. Paul skillfully states here that Jesus Christ is both Son of God and Son of man. Jesus Himself claimed both. He was Son of man by being of the seed of David. He was of David's lineage both through Mary and Joseph, hence stepping into the opportunity of fulfilling the promise that God made to David that his seed would reign forever.

Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
The Spirit of holiness refers to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is Holy, He is the Spirit of holiness. Many continuously forget that. He does not dwell in unholy people, neither is He responsible for unholy behaviour. There are many today who claim to do questionable and unholy things because they are in the spirit, or led by the spirit. Such spirit is not God's Spirit of holiness or the Holy Spirit.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name;
Grace is from Jesus Christ, so also is the calling and sending of a true apostle. Paul says that the grace and apostleship received was not for show, but for obedience to the faith among ALL nations. Grace is given to us, we share the grace, for obedience to the faith. Christians are supposed to OBEY. There are folks that teach that the christian has nothing to do as everything has being magically done by Jesus. The Scriptures teach that grace is given us, so that we can be OBEDIENT(doing as told: carrying out, or willing to carry out, instructions, or submitting to somebody's will or authority) to the faith, in ALL nations. The faith is not supposed to have different rules and standards from nation to nation. It is the same in every nation.

Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
This verse shows that the Romans were already a part of the church. The church is the called out, called of Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The epistle is primarily to all that are in Rome. It's not just to a leader, or to one elder, or to the church workers. Many christains think that the Word of God is to their pastors and church workers only. they do not see a need or reason to obedience or commitment except they are workers. The only reason for any sort of dedication, activity or righteous work is because they are 'workers'. They are in the executive, they are in a committee, or they are now joined the choir or whatever section in church. But God's Word and this epistle is to ALL, anyone beloved of God, and called of God. God has called us to be saints. The Romans were called to be saints. A saint is not a dead fellow, neither is it limited to the 12 disciples of Jesus and some 'outstanding' bishops. God's purpose, Christ's purpose of calling you is to be a saint. It's amazing, though sorrily becoming normal for a christian to say "I'm no saint". It's not humility but ignorance, or worse still unbelief. And God's grace is always sufficient. Double grace to you and peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
The Roman believers obeyed the faith until it became theirs.
Songs 2:16 My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies.
Songs 6:3 I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lilies.
How we also need to take the faith personal, and not just a religion or affiliation.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Paul made mention of people, whom he seemingly had never met but only heard of, in his prayers without stopping. How we need to imbibe such a practice, even if it was only for people that we know. Also Paul was not presumptuous in his decisions, desires and plans, but subjected it all to the will of God. Note also how Paul calls the gospel of God, the gospel of His Son.

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Rom 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

The christians in Rome were very likely converts from and of the people who were at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, and also the persecuted christians who were scattered abroad by persecution(perpetuated chiefly through Saul).
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Paul, an apostle like Peter and John, hoped to physically get to this believers to impart gifts into their lives. This teaches us the importance of physical fellowship with other believers. There are some spiritual things that may never be received in the solitary or via emails, weblinks, articles, handkerchiefs and even epistles.

Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Ignorance is always negative. Even God's people cannot survive it, they perish due to ignorance. Paul did not want Roman believers to be ignorant.

Rom 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Paul was a debtor to preach the gospel to everybody. Agreed that he was primarily sent to the gentiles, but anyone willing to read the Bible should observe that he had MANY Jewish converts too. Infact, in the Acts, he usually preached first to the Jews and had some converts from them before facing the Gentiles. So also, the other apostles preached to everybody too. Peter for instance brought Cornelius the gentile and his household to Christ.

It is not wrong to question God. But its similar to asking if it is wrong to question your Dad, Boss, or someone in higher authority. There should be some reverence and trust.

shdemidemi: As a church we are married to Christ, we must obey the laws and principles of Christ. Bringing any other story that led us to Christ is spiritual adultery according to Romans 6 and 7. The risen Christ did not give you a mandate to pay tithes, it is totally wrong to force your old into the new.

You need to read what Christ said in Matthew 23:23, then have faith and not doubt that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

DrummaBoy: Circumcision was also giving before the law; with a direct commandement from God to Abraham (unlike tithe) in Genesis 17, why did the Apostle Paul labor hard to show that it has gone with the law



What blanket? Who said it was cold? That something is giving does not mean that it is acceptable to God. Check your bible, motive and scriptural standards determine if what we do in the NT is acceptable to God.



There is still no scripture by the apostles that say we give tithes. Period. But there are legion of scriptures that shows that the Mosaic tithes has been abolished along with the levithical rights, unless, ofcourse, you refuse to see them.



One with God is majority: I am content that way

The point and fact remains that tithes and offering was before the law. Deal with that instead of attaching it with something else just with the hope of bringing it down, the counsel of the Lord will stand.
Tithes and offering are forms of giving. God and His apostles encourage giving, especially to Christ and His church.
There is not ONE scripture that speaks contrary to tithing. That you can say there are legion of scriptures that show you that tithing is abolished shows your desperation, dishonesty and perhaps a poor grasp of the english language.
God is not a liar, neither does He change. You are on your own.

Is that frosb in that pishure with jagajaga hair? No wonder, worldly jagajaga hair for that mtschew matter.

DrummaBoy: I would like to hear the story. Because I cannot understand why Bidam believes tithes is of the law but still says it remains a "pricinple"; what principle? Like, same way the law of Moses say do not kill; and the law of God in our hearts says do not Kill, because it would not be compatible with love. Now how does the law of Moses which command tithing to Levites that had no inheritance, and needed it for their sustenance equal pay tithe in church so that ministers can have money to run church? When the NT has shown more than enough scriptures on how church must be financed? And when these discourses where going on in 2Corinthians 7-9; 1Corinthians 9; all the pastoral epistles; Paul's admonition in Acts 20 that it is more blessed to give than to receive; and Hebrew 13 that says God is pleased with sacrificial giving (that about all I can remember in NT giving); how do all of them equate to Tithing today? Even the Hebrew 7 scripture that discussed tithes in the NT was simply talking about the supremacy of Jesus' priesthood to that of Aaron, that was sustained with tithe. And since Aaron's priesthood was abolished, the means of sustaining it, the tithe, is done away with also. There is no other way to interprete that scripture without reading our prejudices into it. And, when the NT teaches doctrine or practise, it is explicit about it; it does not teach something and then expect us to see it in another light. Those who choose to get revelations from Hebrew 7 to tithe are finding revelations to support their greed and fraud.

So, Bidam, we await your story...

Tithes and offering were given before the law. This is a fact you cannot remove from the Word.
Tithes and offering are under the giving blanket.
There is still no scripture or apostle that says we should not give tithes and offerings.
You are on your own.

Worldly songs a Christian can listen to, the irony.

DrummaBoy: @Image

Let me refresh your memory: Someone had advertised a meeting that was gonna discuss tithing on this forum. Kun then gave briefing on how d meeting went and mentioned that it was well attended with about 24 people in attendance.

Image responded to this by saying the organizers should have gotten Bonkke to pull crowd for them. JeSoul corrected that notion by quoting where 2 or 3 are gathered... and Image was shut up until now.

I do not know what conscience has been defiled by relating this. I should ask how you can live with your own conscience by quoting someone wrongly: Kun never said 'tens of thousands' attended: he was truthful enough to give the number in attendance which U tried to ridicule to your shame. You are the ones who glory in numbers and this is the more reason the doctrine you espouse is not only false but also a lie, as you have no qualms lying about something written in black and white.

Thanks voltron, i enjoyed the drumming around. You have earned three points. Congrats.

truthislight: What is eternal life ?

Eternal life is what God thinks eternal life is. Do you have eternal life?

What in earth is wrong with or was wrong with alex and frosb? Abeg take am easy oh, you can't fight for God than God. Compare your gain if any to your losses, if you see it. And respect yourselves, at least for others' sake.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

DrummaBoy: I thought that point Jesoul raised was a very valid one: I didn't know however that it hit such a sore point in you that it has remained indelible in ur memory.

Yes God has never gloried or worked with numbers; so that there was a bit over 20 people in that meeting does not make it a failure. What is failing us as a nation and what is a failure is this country recording the largest gathering of believers in the world and still the most corrupt and most backward. The more reason why the doctrines these crowd pullers must be x-rayed, especially the very fraudulent tithe.

So to re-iterate the point made: where two or three are gathered in His name there he is. while we are @ this, we should also ask in what name these crowded churches gather: in the name of TITHE?

If you still have a functioning conscience, you would have seen that it was phantom kun that was glorying in numbers as tens of thousands

ikemofepo: We all need to be patient with tithers. I was once there too myself. I remember all the crap that happened and how much we suffered because we indeed try to buy God's blessings. My questions on tithing have never been answerable, and even our so called grace teachers believe you get everything from God by grace through faith, except one - MONEY. You have to give and tithe and sow until you go broke. I remember my dad vowing money he never had, paying 20 percent as tithe and all the other crap we are encouraged to do as Christians. Someone even said we have to do what Abraham did to be as blessed as he is. They consider the blessing of Abraham material. That is all just false. The blessing of Abraham was righteousness APART from works! Abraham was already EXTREMELY blessed before he gave tithes. My pastor still wanted me to believe he paid tithes and all the passages they quote. I just had to write about the crap on my blog http://mb.mettalloids.com I will upload a book here that will help. Ever since I stopped tithing, I have been able to give way more that 40 percent of my income. In this, it was easier to consider the poor and needy which was Christ's injunction to his disciples. May God help us!

Please, can you quote this Christ's injunction about the poor?

ikemofepo: We all need to be patient with tithers. I was once there too myself. I remember all the crap that happened and how much we suffered because we indeed try to buy God's blessings. My questions on tithing have never been answerable, and even our so called grace teachers believe you get everything from God by grace through faith, except one - MONEY. You have to give and tithe and sow until you go broke. I remember my dad vowing money he never had, paying 20 percent as tithe and all the other crap we are encouraged to do as Christians. Someone even said we have to do what Abraham did to be as blessed as he is. They consider the blessing of Abraham material. That is all just false. The blessing of Abraham was righteousness APART from works! Abraham was already EXTREMELY blessed before he gave tithes. My pastor still wanted me to believe he paid tithes and all the passages they quote. I just had to write about the crap on my blog http://mb.mettalloids.com I will upload a book here that will help. Ever since I stopped tithing, I have been able to give way more that 40 percent of my income. In this, it was easier to consider the poor and needy which was Christ's injunction to his disciples. May God help us!

Please, can you quote this Christ's injunction about the poor?

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

alexleo: He does not even understand what eternal life means. You ve given his false teachings hard punches and in his usual style of running from one end of the scripture to the other like a headless chicken he gathered scriptures that doesn't counter the ones you quoted in any way. How desperate a merchant of lies can be. Na wa o.

Alex, don't let him or anyone "get to you " as the devil will achieve his aim that way. You just continue preaching, two wrongs do not equal a right.

frosbel: carry your useless powerless gospel away , it has no impact, until you start to preach the real gospel, you remain a tinkling cymbal.

Why would anyone take a person who does not know, or cannot say if he has eternal life seriously? frosb, do you have eternal life?