₦airaland Forum

@ mavister and others, you kept asking for scriptural proof of purgatory.

Ever since I gave you these, you havent responded to them.


I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5: who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

JMAN05: @ITALO

You believe that one day, Jesus will appear to rapture the living. Am I right?

So how will this raptured people go to heaven since they have atom of sin in them? will they go to purgatory first, then start going to heaven?

What is "rapture?"

Show me in the Bible.

ajayikayod: Dont worry, i will be patient enough for us to finish. Still expecting ur response.

Please just tell me where 1Cor3:15 is referring to.

Heaven or hell.

Jehovah's Witness JMAN05 even says it is earth.

I have answered one million questions on this thread already.

People hardly answer mine.

JMAN05: Did that Matthew mention purgatory? Did 1cor. 3:15 mention purgatory? which prove did you give me?

If you call it purgatory, another can come and say it is talking about the underworld, another can say another thing. who said you are the only one with unscriptural guess?


1. Jesus words refers to the coming new system of Christ's thousand year reign.

Prove it from the Bible.

JMAN05: 2. 1cor is not talking about the dead but the living. the work talked about is not the person himself but those he helped become xtians, if those persons fell to persecution, the work is burned up. then the individual who converted them will suffer lost. he will however, be saved, if he was saved, it will be as thru fire. It never said THROUGH fire but "AS through fire". the fire in that place is not a literal fire, just like the gold, silver, stone and wood there is not talking about literal materials, but showing that if you inculcate spiritual teachings to people so strong as fire resistant materials, when a firy persecution comes, your work (those you converted) will withstand it.

Let me stop here. read the context very well. I dont know how tradition came in there.

Wrong. It is talking about judgement.

It mentions "the Lord's day."

You protestants keep coming up with dozens of different stories.

Which do we argue against?

ajayikayod: See confession! so u guys dey add jara a?

Wonder whr the Apostles hav extra doctrinal supports outside God's Word o.

What is "God's word?"

ajayikayod: Chairman,
Dt same mary was condemned under Sin, born in iniquity b4 christ came
Dt same mummy mary relied on d blood of Jesus to be saved.
Dt same mary patiently waited for d outpouring of d Spirit on d day of pentecost.
On d Day of reward, dt same mary will stand side by side with us to recieve her reward according to her works.
D same marry solely depended on d same grace dt saved us.
Dt same mary would hav been burning in hell by now, as we will all do if not for Christ takin our place.

U better wake up, Apostle Paul, Mary all looked up to dt grace of God (Christ) for salvation. Pope does too (he may not tell u), he relies solely on dt grace not on mary pleading for him.

What point have you made?

JMAN05: It is God who knows the heart, that is why I said that. The bible also supports salvation by grace, not so? I have not seen you prove from the bible against this. all I see is what you think you know without prove. Another person can as well come and say they will reincarnate, another can say they go to an underworld. So minus bible, why do you think that you are the only one with another unscriptural suggestion?

Prove purgatory, you cant. It is tradition.

I have shown you that Matt 12:32 clearly implies that some sins will be forgiven after death.

I have shown you that there is a state/place where people suffer loss yet are saved as through fire.

The Bible says no impurity will enter heaven.

Chukwudi has shown you that purgatory was referred to as prison.

What other proof do you want?

Video footage?

adsonstone: Thats not sufficient.
Reason: Christ hasnt died then

as for the David's story,
clearly, you dont know why he was punished.
Certainly not cos of what he was forgiven for but the promise God made to punish Him...notice that the prophet said He was being (or going to be) punished cos his deed caused the enemies of God to blasphame against Him.
I'll recommend a re-study on that.

Clear road!

JMAN05: 1 John 5:16 is the unforgiveable sin. sinning against the holy spirit.

The person who didnt ask for forgiveness. assuming he doesnt make practice of it, God will weigh his heart condition, it is now left for God either to accept Him or not. Remember the salvation is not strictly by works, but by grace. If by works, no one will be saved.

You see that you're not sure of what should happen to such a person. You are guessing.

Meanwhile, when people that are sure tell you that such a person should go to purgatory to be purged of the uncleanness, you'll start arguing as if you know.

Lady Excellency: Bros, this your question is diversionary and has nothing to do with purgatory.

Let's look at the context and see what we can make out of it.

1Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In verse 12, it talks and relates to our earthly works and services to "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" hence the analogy of;

Refined by fire (profitable) if they are - gold, silver, precious stones - selfless services/works

Burnt by fire (waste) if they are - wood, hay, stubble - works/services done for self glory and pride

The passage itself is not about judgement as it never relates to any sin committed or immoral character exhibited by these saints.

Verses 13 to 15 explain further by limiting the passage to reward for our (the saints) labour of love and how they were executed (selflessly or by vain-glory).

If you cannot see that that passage is talking about judgement, arguing with my shoe will be more profitable than arguing with you.

mavister: hahahha hear your self out bro. So what is the blood of jesus christ for?

To save us from sins, without which, those souls wouldn't even deserve purgatory.

The blood of Jesus doesn't mean that impurities will enter heaven.

six one: Take your time. Peter started what? Does The doctrine of Catholic church align with the teachings of Peter and the early Christians?

Yes. Though I know that it doesnt align with your personal fallible interpretation of Scripture.

That is nothing to be worried about.

JMAN05: Now should this oral tradition conflict with the written word of God?

No.

Church tradition in no way contradicts scripture...though I have found that it contradicts the fallible and biased personal interpretation of protestants.

That is nothing to be worried about.

JMAN05: God's purposes are revealled progressively. bible truths come gradually. not that the truths have not been there, no, but its understanding comes gradually.

the apostles was with Jesus, but they thought that he was going to bring the kingdom after resurrection.

When the holy spirit fell on the apostles on pentacost, they never knew that God was going to bring the gentiles in, but this has been what was taught many years in the past, but now God gradually revealed the sacred secret after pentacost.

If you read Dan. 12:4 you will see that that truth is kept secret for the time of the end.

John came with his disciples and taught about baptism which is essential for salvation. that was the revealed truth at the time, later, baptism by Jesus came. If you are baptized by that of John alone when that of Jesus is revealed, you are going no where. but that does not make john and his disciples agents of Devil. no. God was unfolding events gradually.

Even in the first century Paul revealled that they do not know all about the prophecies they utter. 1cor. 13:8-10

So the above shows that God leads His people progressively. Not that the truth has not been there before, no, but God reveals it gradually. this doesnt make those who have a progressive understanding of it lack the holy spirit. in short, that they get new understanding is the evidence God's spirit cos God keeps some truths secret until some time.

Pentecost was the beginning of the Church. The Apostles never taught false doctrines. Each individual could be mistaken about one or two things, but as leaders of the Church, they never taught false doctrine.

Dont try to make those holy men like the false teachers called Watchtower Society.

Look, dont make me start posting all your ridiculous and hypocritical falsehoods o.

If you want, just say so.

In short, just give me time, that is what I will do.

Maybe I should open a thread and invite you.

Its just that I dont like attacking other people's faiths.

You're pushing me.

JMAN05: Practicing sin is living in sin. he shouldnt wilfully, be indulging in sin. today you sleep with woman, tomorrow you do the same. next time you do again. No.

That sin may come by mistake, but you repent and turn around, you will be washed by his blood. If there are small errors that you engage in (not frequently and willfully doing it), this cant be viewed as a practice of sin.

1 john 3:8.

He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil.

quote the portion pls.

1 John 5:16.

What happens to a believer who tells a 'white lie' like. "I dont have money" when they have...just once...and didnt ask forgiveness before death.

Where does he/she go?

Heaven or hell?

[quote author=amara.lizzy%40y]u said white lie is nt a sin unto death. y revel 21v8 said al liar shal hav there part in d lake which burneth wif fire n brimstone which is d 2nd death.[/quote]Permit me to ignore you.

Have you noticed that almost everyone has noticed that you have nothing sensible to offer?

Nothing! Zero! Empty!

mavister: 1 Corinthians 3:15, another passage you have cited in support of Purgatory, is about works being evaluated. Paul uses the imagery of fire, but the works are burned, not the person.

It is about judgement day. And it says the person will suffer loss and be saved as through fire.

Do people suffer loss in heaven or get saved as through fire?

mavister: Since Paul writes that even a person without any good works can be saved (1 Corinthians 3:15), as long as he's resting on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11), the passage actually contradicts Catholic teaching about salvation and works rather than supporting your Catholic teaching about Purgatory.

No, it doesn't contradict Catholic teaching.

St Paul never said they had no good works. He only indicated that their work wasnt good enough to go through the fire unscathed.

The Saints in v14 had works that were good enough not to be burned by the fire of purgatory. Hence, they received their reward (heaven) immediately.

The Souls in purgatory in v15 had works but they were not good enough to pass without being burned by the fire of purgatory. Hence the suffering loss but being saved eventually "as through fire."

The damned in v17 violated the temple (mortal sin) which was also on the foundation of Christ. They go to hell.

Foundation in Christ is not enough if we dont continue to do good works, and "good works" also involve rejecting sin.

mavister: The truth is that there is no Purgatory. Even when the apostle Paul knew he was imperfect (Philippians 3:12), he knew he would go to be with the Lord when he died (Philippians 1:21-23). We read in scripture:
"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple" - Revelation 7:14-15
People go to Heaven because of what Christ has done for them, not because of what they've done for Christ. The ungodly person who believes in Christ while not working (Romans 4:5-6) is assured of avoiding God's wrath (Romans 5:9-10) as a free gift of God's grace (Romans 6:23). God invites anybody who thirsts to...
"take the water of life without cost" - Revelation 22:17

All this is irrelevant because all in purgatory will be with the Lord.

JMAN05: He wipes it off as far as they dont make practice of it.

So if believers "make practise" of sin, he wont wipe it off?

When you answer that, please tell us what you mean by "make practise of it"



Also what does the Bible mean when it tells believers that there are "sins that lead to death?"

Did it mean sins that believers 'made practise of?'

@ mavister,

The question I asked you was: where is 1Cor3:15 talking of?

^^^
You are not a sincere human being.

You still refuse to give a clear and honest answer to my question.

JMAN05: You were honest in admitting you guys dont follow the bible alone. True, those in the bible times may have received instructions not penned down in the bible, but these wouldnt contradict what is in the scriptures.

Even if we do not know for certain what those traditions were, some of them could have been what hav been stated in other part of the scriptures. Even if they were different, All scripture is inspired of God and benefitial for teaching... that a man of God we be COMPLETELY equipt for every good work. So if we can apply what is written, apart from oral tradition, we are ok to please God acceptably. I think that is safe than believing what someone may pop up in his mind as handed down tradition which we cant verify.

The bold. many have stated that we changed john1:1 against greek grammar.

Please Italo, I want you to tell me grammatically, what is wrong with the translation of that verse in that form? is it wrong to insert "a" or small "g" in greek grammar in that verse?

I need your answer, maybe i will start from you to expose the shallow scholarship of those who call themselves scholars who only expose how illitrate they are in greek grammar.

Bible alone is contrary to Biblical and Apostolic teaching.

"Written letter" and "oral tradition" is what the Bible and Apostles teach!

Shikena!

For John 1:1 and your false doctrines I'll be back.

JMAN05: Of course we make mistake as we are imperfect just like the infallible Popes make mistakes even when they say they cant make mistakes. I dont know who should be viewed as being sincere here.

No, I dont agree that mistakes shows they are not being led by the spirit. God reveals his truth progressively, until when God wants to reveal it, you may not know it.

Some of the apostles in the past had a wrong expectations too, but were corrected later. you cant say they werent led by the spirit.

Stop trying to rope other people in with your false doctrines. We are not talking about mistakes or expectations but false doctrines.

God doesn't reveal false doctrine today, then correct it tomorrow.

Your false doctrines are from the devil not God.

JWs yesteryears defended those false doctrines you now call mistakes. What is the guarantee your children will not call what you defend today "mistakes" tomorrow.

[quote author=amara.lizzy%40y]if u believe purgatory exist dat means ur sittin on a long thing.[/quote]You are not making any sensible points; you're just going about spewing emotional knee-jerk reactions.

You already decided that nothing can convince you. Would you then allow us talk to people who seek truth with an open mind, thank you.

JMAN05: Sir, I think you dont understand. Jesus death made people to be declared righteous not according to works but by grace/undeserved kindness.

God made the saints righteous though they are sinners. their sins were blotted out. so God do not view them as sinners again cos of Christ's blood. No need for minor sin removal. Even while on earth they are viewed as adopted sons and saints. the sainthood is not gotten after they die.

Are you saying believers never commit sin...or that they do but God overlooks the sins?

ajayikayod: In interpreting d scriptures, its always important to read thru d chapther to hav a clear understanding of wat is written, if not we will import our own thought into it.

Firstly, evry believer cant contend d fact dt the word "purgatory" doesnt occur as a word in d scriptures. definately we cant conclude from d non existence of such event in d bible just becos d word doesnt exist. But its a good place to start.

Going by d scriptures u pointed (1Cor 3:15), I will love if we can analyse d tot & stand of d writer by looking at d whole chapter together then we can reach a conclusion.

Lets analyse verse 5 - 9 first then we can move from thr.

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

I really want to believe u kno dt ds refered to d labor of Paul and Apollos in ministries i.e. preaching & teaching. (Paul said i planted, Apollos watered). Ds showed shared responsibilities not individual righteous actions but service in ministries.

8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Verse 8 showed dt thr is a reward for individual (his own labor). Wat labor? D planting/watering not personal sin or actions but service in ministries (vs 5: "but ministers through whom you believed". Verse 9: fellow workers.

CONCLUSION ON VERSE 5-9

1. Paul/ Apollos labor is related to thr sins but service & ministering for God to give increase
2. Ds labor will be rewards according to d service (planting/watering God's building whic ar d ppl).

Let me allow u to express ur side on d scriptures above then we can move to d next verses.

I think you should finish your exposé. If I start to respond now, we may never even get to the crux of the matter.

JMAN05: I am yet to see how 1cor. 3:15 proves purgatory?

When you rejected her explanation of the world to come, you ve not shown how purgatory came in there.

1Cor3:15 shows that there is a state/place after judgement where some people suffer loss and are saved as "through fire."

True or false?

Matt 12:32 clearly implies that some sins will be forgiven in the world to come.

True or false.

Pls giv a clear honest answer this time, not your usual dubious merry-go-rounds.

mavister: One thing i have discovered is that some of this religious fanatics peddling this fallacy on the existence of purgatory know the truth is far fetched from what they are saying. The basis here is that they cant even muster the courage to walk up to their priests for proof on the existence of purgatory and moreso, they have been born in the catholic church and as such, for all their lives have been fed with such dish that anything else from that is lies even when they see it to be the truth. One may ask me why am i bothering my self posting all this? Is he in a bid to win them over to his side? No not at all..like a friend said..serve your God ..let me serve mine.. Am doing all this cause there are many who dont even know where they stand. They dont know what to believe.and if left to this false prophets..they will be misled... Please every one... Lets be wise.. I pray the holy spirit opens the eyes of any one who is still confused..amen
shalom

Where is 1Cor3:15 talking about?

[quote author=amara.lizzy%40y]y shld i mail or call u, notin lyk purgatory u can't convience or confuse me.[/quote]Why then did you open the thread when you knew before hand that all our words would fall on deaf ears?

six one: You tell am say you no dey and you dey. What if God wanted to use you to save that person and as u say you no dey the person die as a result of not seeing you? Think man. It ain't illegal to think yet.

At least, you didnt know that. It doesn't make the sin more grevious.

What if he leaves immediately and then the decking of our your sitting room collapses exactly where he would have been sitting.

Would that make your lie a good thing.

People even die from the effects of other people's intention to do good. Would it turn the good to sin?

The important thing is the intent, not effect.

God is not inconsiderate like you.

[quote author=amara.lizzy%40y]the bible said we shld do d wil of God n prosper. Thro doing d wil of God on earth u we suffer loss n percautn, yet u wil be saved in heaven. Bible said our God is a merciful God n also consuming fire.[/quote]That passage is talking about judgement day, sister, not loss on earth.

You attempt to twist fails again.

[quote author=amara.lizzy%40y]Ha, so white lie is no sin. When d bible said al unrightoeusnz is sin. Pls read ur bible revel 21v8.[/quote]Where did I say white lie is not a sin?

JMAN05: I just said the truth which you guys are aware of.

As JWs, please post what they believe now and prove it wrong, not a mistake the ve changed years ago.

when you talk about child molestation, I ve not heard of such, but I cant say it wont happen cos we are imperfect humans, however, the number must be few.

I shouldnt start to mention molestation amongst catholic priests and atrocities by infallible Popes. Among apointed men in JWs this incidents are few but among priests in catholic? woooooow, of course you know now!!!!!

But that is your doctrine, the bible alone doesnt state what you guys believe, true or false?

There are those who have left catholic too, many many many to be compared with JWs, hmmm have u forgotten?

You have already admitted that JWs change doctrines, haven't you?

If they believed a mistake yesterday, it means their teaching is not from the Holy Spirit.

Period!