₦airaland Forum

leon12: I was doing some research and came to know 'bout russia orthodox Church( mostly 60% of population believe in dis faith) and came to know that it was Apostle Andrew(apostle peters brother) who founded this church N to my suprise they share almost same faith and doctrine with catholics. It assured me that all this catholic doctrine is not mere Men doctrine like how most xtain assume it to be. The two church was founded by people who worked with our lord jesus and they founded the church in different part of world but still same faith.. I encourage catholics to be doing more research 'bout dis whole things.

Welcome to the thread, leon12.

Just to add that both Churches used to be one and the same until the 1054 schism when many Eastern Bishops refused to accept the primacy of the Bishop of Rome - the Pope. They just saw him as first among equals who didnt have any authority over the universal Church. Even the Coptic Church in Egypt used to be one with us until the 6th century. It was founded by St. Mark, the author of "Mark." There still is a great deal of mutual respect among these Churches.

Welcome.

damerry: yes. Dats true, the best we can do is to continue praying and sharing the graces obtained ( keeping the faith alive ) and @ the same time educating the ignorant and countering heresies. Remember our early church fathers, the did both @ the same time and they have succeeded in keeping the faith alive for 2000 years
bro, it's our time, lets do our bits. Remembering this word of Christ " i shall be with you till the end of time "

You're correct...

It's just that I can't help but think there's a time and place for everything.

It feels to me like quitting Catechism class and arguing.

When then are the catechumens supposed to learn?

When Pope Francis, went to Brazil, he could have engaged the adversaries in debates. But the adversaries would have succeeded in preventing him from mentoring his flock.

Sometimes, the adversary is just out to distract.

But you have a point.

joel lala: LOL...i watched a wonderful documentary of how the pope, catholic church and vatican came into existence..and funny enough some statement dat @forexprophet said is correct..very soon i will post facts about the pope, catholic and vatican...but please note dat am not against anybodys concept of worship ok

Chai!

You concluded that something is true just because you saw it in a documentary? !

What if you watch another documentary that tells you the opposite, you will believe both conflicting views...or you will be confused?

^^^No be Catholic Church GEJ dey go kneel down everyday o...

Serry2kz: U ARE A CONFUSIONIST, U NEED MERCY OF GOD TO SAVE YOUR SOUL.

What do you want me to do.

I present just two verses and ask them questions on it, they cant answer.

They keep asking me for scripture.

Now I present 50 verses.

You cant explain 2...and you cant handle 50.

What do you want from me?

How can we please this evil generation?

skydeexie: Italo, you are tired man, go and take some rest for now!

Why on earth will God send His Son to come and die for our sins, only to have these same sins being forgiven half way or not fully at all.

Stop twisting the scriptures and the simple Gospel of Salvation and thereby misleading many to hell.

What is the point of Christ death on the Cross?

Rom. 6:23 (KJV) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"

Let me also quote from the same book of 1st John in the Bible that you have been using as your support:

1 John 3:1-10 (KJV)

"1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (Your purgatory doctrine flies out of the window here)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

(Emphasis in red mine.)

Let the Bible speak for itself and not replace it with the doctrine of demons and traditions of men in 'holy' garbs.

Purgatory doesn't stand in the way of Christ's forgiveness.

It was the Holy Spirit that said some will SUFFER LOSS and be saved as through fire.

If Christ died for our sins, why should we suffer loss and be saved as through fire?

More importantly, where will this happen?

That is the question that all non-Catholic here have failed to answer.

mavister: please do not resort to insults or derogatory statements bro. Kindly use that time to give ME scriptural proof on the existence of 'purgatory'..remain blessed.

"Gimme scripture," "gimme scripture. "

Oya take scripture:

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5: who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

There are dozens more if you want them.

mavister: bro and as u preach..it sure would have an effect on u and everyone who believes you. Why do i say so? I say so cus Gods standard is very high (for our God is a consuming fire) and i put it to u that God is merciful but just.. So by preaching such. U are giving people the idea that they can go scot free even if by chance.they happen to commit ''small sins'....not funny

Is Jesus giving people license to sin because he says he will forgive our sins over and over if we ask?

The truth must be preached.

Lady Excellency: If you understand the New Testament well, the saints/righteous shall not pass through judgement hence only wait for the reward of their services/works while on earth.

Judgement is for sinners - who fails to abide by the teachings on the word of God.

Someone tell me this is just a comedian trying to make us laugh!

mavister: from all indications.it is crystal-clear that my brother is trying to digress from the main issue at hand probably to while away time..or to confuse..i wish he could give me something substantial to proove the existence of 'purgatory'...but he has failed to. Rather he is asking who did jesus deciples approach at cana and questions like that..i'd appreciate it if u can convince us here. Cause people are reading our posts. They know the truth... As a devout catholiv @italo. I expect u to quote bible verses not running away from the subjest matter..kindly read the topic of this thread..thankk you.and remain blessed

Dear friend, I dont know what is wrong with you but I know you aren't blind.

Why do you pretend as if you dont know that it was kingk who first talked about Jesus and the thief...and it was Lady excellence who brought up the Mary issue.

Then you accuse me of being the one diverting.

Why are you such a hypocrite?

mavister: bro..please let me ask you this. From all indication you are a devout catholic.yeah am not negating that. And you and i know that death is no respecter of age.. Now lets keep other things aside. As u believe in purgatory, i know fully well that ur life may not be completely right with God (please am not judging) because u would justify ur self by saying, afterall there is purgatory for me. Even if i die in dis small sin..i will still make heaven later. That may be at the back of your mind bro.. But let me ask you this SUPPOSE U DIE NOW, AND WITH ALL YOUR BELIEF OF PURGATORY PURGATORY AND U DISCOVER THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AND U END UP IN HELL, WHAT WILL YOU DO?? PLS TEL ME BRO.. OR ON THE OTHER HAND U SERVE GOD WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND END UP IN HEAVEN AND U DISCOVER NO PURGATORY, WOULD U HAVE LOST ANYTHING? ASK YOURSELF THIS.. BECAUSE IF U DISCOVER AT THE END OF TIME THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AS PURGATORY, OTHER PEOPLE WHOM YOU HAVE MISLED , GOD WILL ASK FOR THEIR BLOOD FROM YOU.. PLS THINK ABOUT THIS .THANKS AND GOD BLESS

Lol...

My dear friend, every devout Catholic strives for heaven, not purgatory.

Every devout Catholic strives to do God's will for love of God, not for what we can gain (heaven, material things, spiritual favours etc) or lose (hell, spiritual losses, material losses etc).

Nobody has ever being taught that it's okay to relax and go to purgatory.

However, we must preach what we know. Purgatory exists and we must say it.

ajayikayod: Yes, some will.

I have never heard of "suffering loss" in heaven. Can you prove this?

ajayikayod: No, After d death/ressurection of Christ, thr is no salvation in hell.

So we know that 1 Cor 3:15 isnt talking about hell.

But how can it be heaven when it mentions people suffering losses and being saved "as through fire?"

ajayikayod: No, 4givess of sins only happen here on earth, to the living.

In Matt 12:32, Jesus clearly implies that there are sins that will be forgiven in the world to come. Read it. You and him dont seem to be on the same page.

Good morning and God bless you too.

Lady Excellency: There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ (PBUH) would have rejected their request had they made it directly to him with unquenchable faith.

Remember, he that asks receives

You haven't answered my question.

Through whom did they get to Jesus?

Simple!

mavister: my brother u are getting all wrong. If u say protestants believe in 'once save always saved'....is that a yardstick for u to be spreading unscriptural statements.. Personally am a protestant and i will disagree with you... I dnt believe in 'once save, always saved' as u put it..what i believe and which is biblical is that if u as a righteous man comits sin..that mares ur christian life...and u need repentance..and consequently if u as a sinner repents no matter the sin..and u decide to follow God...ur sins are forgiven..havent u seen armed robbers becoming evangelists? Because of the blood of christ...i think what ur trying to imply is that a gross sinner if he/she comes unto God cannot be forgiven wholly.... And will still be purnished in where u call 'purgatory'....a really sorry for u bro...i pray the holy ghost gives u d understanding in the bible.. Because u are contradicting the bible.. Thank you bro

As a believer, can you go to hell if you have unforgiven sin?

kingk: Oga, both you mentioned are all SIN unto death cos it's done DELIBERATLY.

Who told you that?

kingk: Thank you bro for this light you threw in... Another perfect example is the thief at the cross, though we don't know the level of crime(SIN) he committed though I believe it's a worse one for him to be crucified.....
But he was forgiven and went to rest (paradise or heaven). Not to pay again for his SIN in PURGATORY.

Jesus said to the thief on Friday: "today, you will be with me in paradise."

Jesus said to Mary on Sunday: "I have not yet ascended to my Father."

Where were Jesus and the good thief between Friday and Sunday?

kingk: Don't mind this Bro joor... No scripture yet no evidence yet

I have given tonnes of scriptural evidence.

Read from 1st page.

kingk: I just copied out this quote from yours ***For sure, we know when the Bible talks about death, it's not physical death, but eternal damnation***. The question is as a believer, if I commit the sin that is not for eternal damnation, if I die will I be condemned?.... The answer is NO and NO. So where will I be then; it's either heaven or hell, for being a believer, I'll be in heaven not PURGATORY nor HELL.

You will enter heaven with your impurity?

Dear Catholic, pls join fellow Catholics from time to time as we share our faith on this thread: www.nairaland.com/1464338/thread-catholics/12#19270896

Its like our comfort zone on nairaland.

Lady Excellency: Matt 11:28 Come unto me (Jesus), all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus never requested or made any case for an intermediary throughout his life on earth.

Secondly, never imply anything when reading or quoting the bible rather use bible passages/verses to support or trash any doubt you have.

On a lighter note, If I reason with your argument for purgatory in the thread, I presuppose that you are of the believe that there is purgatory.

That everyone in purgatory made a mistake or committed sin not unto death.

That everyone in purgatory will consequently make it to heaven hence there is no effect of earthly prayers on their transition to heaven but just a matter of time.

My question to you is: Do you encourage the living offering prayers for the dead?

At least you could have answered my question which no non-Catholic has been able to answer:

The couple at the wedding in Cana found rest in Jesus.

Through whom did they get to Jesus?

My answer to your question is yes. Please answer mine.

kingk: Thank you Brother... Even bible ask **shall we continue in sin that grace abound? It said God forbid***
Now I say ***shall we continue in sin that there's purgatory? I said God forbid.....

You are in line with Catholic teaching.

We reject sin even though we know purgatory exists.

kingk: Thank you.. Now that's an example of SIN unto DEATH..............
Remaining not unto death.

That's sin not unto death.

Example of sin unto death is murder.

mavister: my brother, how i wish u could give us scriptural proof to substantiate that there is purgatory. U are going round and round in circles. Please

Read 1 Cor 3:15

Tell me where people suffer loss, yet are saved as through fire.

Heaven or hell?

Note: we know that no one suffers loss in heaven and no one is saved in hell.

So where is that verse talking about?

kingk: No one has an ANSWER here...pls what are those SIN that is unto and not unto DEATH.




NO! There's no impurity in heaven............ But what are the SIN NOT unto DEATH and SIN unto DEATH?

One example: a 'white lie.' E.g "tell am say I no dey" when you dey.

[quote author=waldigit ]Bro accept the officice of the Holy Spirit and it shall be easy for you to live a sinless life.
On the issue of purgatory although it cant be prooved with the scriptures, however if we give benefit of doubt because we know in part as apostle Paul has said, I think its a fraud and wicked for anybody to go about telling pple about it considering the implication that it can encourage pple no to aspire to attain to holy life. Little wonder you hav a high number of catholics who are nominal believer. I think the doctrine is having toll on them.
Pls don't get me wrong I mean no offence, even my wife is a very devout catholic.[/quote]Between the doctrine of purgatory (Catholicism), and the doctrine of "Once saved always saved,"(Protestantism) which one encourages sin more?

Be honest.

We say if a believer sins unto death, he is headed for hell; they say a believer is destined for heaven even though he kills a whole continent.

kingk: Oga, you have nothing to say. Reasons, 25 december is an assumption not really the day christ was born, everything we needed to know as human has been written in this our own bible but we need an understanding of the word...........though I don't have time for details. SECONDLY, talking about SIN not unto death, OGA as a believer, when you commit that SIN, if you DIE you'll go HEAVEN........not PURGATORY nor HELL. Once again I say, there's NOTHING like PURGATORY it's either HEAVEN or HELL.




I'll like us to explore the examples of sin unto and not unto DEATH.

You are saying then that impurities will enter heaven?!

glamoureze: I hope u pray for Gods understanding sha. what the bible meant by nothing umpure will enter heaven is that no matter how little your sin might be, it is enough to make u miss heaven. The moment you ask for mercy and u genuinely repent of your sins. God will forget those sins. Those things that happened to moses and David never happened after the coming of Jesus.

What about the sins that dont lead to death, do they take you to hell (death) or heaven (life)?

glamoureze: exactly. God forgave David and made him pay for his sins. so when David died. he'll still go to purgatory to pay again. haba our God is a merciful God nau

At least you know that we pay for even the sins forgiven.

Purgatory is for those who haven't finished paying for their sins in this life.

Sometimes, I wonder what would happen if Bin Laden sincerely turned to Jesus seconds before he died. Would he then go straight to heaven after a lifetime of the worst crimes?

It is not mine to judge but I know one thing...our Lord is merciful but he is also just.

What about your granny who has been a Saint all her life? If I visited her and she told you from her bedroom "tell am say I no dey" seconds before her death, would she then go to hell while Osama goes to heaven? Will that sin which doesn't lead to death take her to hell or will she be purified of it in purgatory then enter heaven.

Make up your own mind.

[quote author=Parish-priest]@Italo, i cannot but say thank you, for answering your questions with maturity and good biblical quotations. This is how a debate ought to be done in nairaland. Kudos[/quote]Thank you too.

To God be the glory.

Pdizzle: Italo stop explaining, u dnt expect sumone who has not been tru cathecism to understand purgatory, its lyk teachn a man who doesnt knw arithmetic calculus.There a lot of tins attached to it lyk d mortal n venial sins n d dere source wit d bible passage bckn it.

You have a point.

It's just that the ignorant make the most noise in this part of the world, unfortunately.

vivichocs: I love this !!!!...u r really engrossed in the bible..keep it up....anybody still arguing abt existence of purgatory ?

Thank you.

There are some people still arguing. There are people who would rather cling to error if the truth is being presented by a Catholic.

Syncan: I had felt like shouting the bolded a long time ago. You've answered quite a lot of questions thrown, yet no one has attempted to give an answer to yours. A lot of bla bla bla, yet the questions asked since the first page continued to be unanswered.

As usual, brother. As usual.