₦airaland Forum

I have a deep feeling its a Marian apparition.

But, until the Church investigates...

@ HerexG and Frosbel,

You are being deliberately dishonest.

When they debunk you on 'praying for the dead', you start to talk about 'praying TO the dead'.

When we pray for the dead, we pray for the souls who are destined for heaven but are still being purified.

When we pray TO those who you say are "dead", we are actually asking the Saints who have made it to heaven to intercede for us. And we know that they are not dead, but alive.

You see, this Catholic family is one big family that even death cannot break. The Saints in heaven pray for us, we on earth pray for the souls in purgatory.

These protestants are really confused.

First, Catholics are pagans destined for hell.

Then, some of the pagans are destined for heaven.

Next... Who knows what next?!

God is not mocked.

If you know the truth and deviate from it for selfish reasons, you will pay for it, either in this life or in the next or both.

See what Jesus told those who were chasing after him because he multiplied bread and fish the previous day. He said 'if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you'...and many left him because they only wanted bread and fish.

Today also, if you know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, and you go and open your own Church as a pastor...or you go away, leaving the bread of life in the Eucharist to seek for so-called miracles, you will pay for it. Either in this life or in the next or both.

On WITCHCRAFT, you can find the view of the Catholic Church in this link:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15674a.htm

In Short, you can read up the opinion of the Church on all these topics on that website.

The evidence against you is so overwhelming that I don't even know where to start from.

But I have given you a website that tells the Churches opinion of all these things.

Just go to the Catholic encyclopedia www.newadvent.org and search all these topics.

Now can you give me any sort of evidence of all these things you mentioned.

Any link that shows the official Catholic position NOT believing in all these things.

If ignorance is a disease, what are we going to call ignorance of ones own ignorance?

Let me start to address you one by one.

MIRACLES: this is the most ludicrous of your claims. Let me even start from some of the basic tenets of Catholicism. While some people believe that Jesus was a man, The Catholic Church teaches that God took human flesh and lived among men. Isn't that a miracle. Others say that Holy Communion is bread and wine, we say that the bread and wine become Jesus after consecration. Isn't that belief in a miracle? The Church teaches that Jesus rose from the dead. Isn't that a miracle. You amaze me. If I were to list all the miracles that have happened and are recognized and believed by the Church, I will never finish because they keep happening every second. Perhaps you should just do a simple google search of "Catholic Miracles" to find some of the better known miracles.

Frostyzone: No, I'm pretty certain you don't. I did some research based on that and came back negative. Here are the list of what the catholic church doesn't believe in
1. Miracles
2. Witchcraft
3. Spirits(except the holy spirit
4. Speaking in tongues
5. Evolution.
That's not all, but these are the important ones.

It is a very dangerous thing when someone does not know...and they don't know that they do not know.

For starters, can you give us proof that the Catholic Church doesn't believe all these? Of course you cannot. But let us see you try.

@ Bernimoore,

John fell at the angel's feet to worship him. Even though it was wrong but that verse shows 'falling prostrate' as a sign of worship...but you reject it in the case of Joshua, just because you want to blame only Catholics.

My point is, if you exclude 'falling prostrate' as a sign of worship, you are contradicting the Bible, because it is.

...And if you include it as a sign of worship, then Joshua worshipped.

So that should show you that there is something very defective about your logic and reasoning on this matter.

The missing link there is your INTENTION.

Its not possible to worship anything without INTENDING to worship it.

That's why the Bible says we should worship God in truth and spirit. If you bow or crawl or sommersault and your mind is not there, you are not worshipping God.

Same goes for any other gods or things.

That's why God didn't rebuke Joshua, because he clearly knew who he was worshipping even though he was falling prostrate before the Ark.

That's why the angel rebuked John because he clearly intended "to worship" the angel.

That's why there's nothing wrong with what we Catholics do, because, we know clearly who our God is and who we give all glory to and who we direct all our prayers to.

...And nobody is qualified to tell us what our INTENTIONS are as no one can see another's heart. Only we can tell you what we do.

@ Bernimoore,

Firstly, I think its pathetic and disgraceful that you're trying to distinguish between "bowing" and 'falling prostrate' as regards worship. I could have expected something of that sort from Boomark or Plappville, but I thought higher of you... I thought wrong!

Your definition would then be contradictory to what is found in the Bible.

Rev 19:10: At this I fell at his feet to worship him.

But you say it is only when you bow that as the Catholics do, not when you fall, as Joshua did.

Also it would mean that you don't worship God, since you don't do "as the Catholics do" in.

Whichever way, your logic is wrong.

frosbel: ^^^

Celibacy as in the case of Paul and Jesus was a free will choice and not the RULE !!!!!

No Catholic is forbidden to marry. Men who become priests do so voluntarily with the understanding that in the Roman rite marriage is not an option for priests.

Rather than being forbidden to marry, Catholic priests freely sacrifice the option of marriage in favor of serving God more single-mindedly as chaste, celibate disciples. (Married men in the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church are allowed to be ordained.)

frosbel: Here is what Paul advised :

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" - 1 Timothy 3:2

1 Timothy 3:2 say bishop is to be a husband of one wife – it excludes men who are polygamists, but it does not impose marriage as a necessary condition for a bishop.  If this verse is to be interpreted to mean a bishop must marry, then how about 1 Timothy 3:4 that mentions his children (plural)?  If being married is mandatory, then having children is also mandatory, i.e. those who are childless or have only one child cannot become bishop.  Remember that the apostle Paul himself was celibate – it will make him hypocrite if he made marriage mandatory, something that he himself would not obey.

frosbel: It is because of this false doctrine of the catholic church that we have the paedophilia endemic , gross h.omosexuality and random sexual abuse of nuns which has led to hundreds of thousands of pregnancies and abortions.

The catholic church stinks of s.exual perversion and abuse.

It is not a doctrine so it cannot be a false one. And it is not responsible for any immoral act. Sexual immorality exists everywhere and is even worse outside of the Catholic Church. Also, you have gravely and maliciously exaggerated the appaling situation. Its not as bad as you make it out to be. I have been a Catholic for 29 years and I have never encountered anything like that personally, neither do I know anyone who has.

frosbel: "Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods" - 1 Timothy 4:2-3a

Firstly Celibacy of priests is not a teaching. It is a discipline. Then, 1 Timothy 4:3, far from impugning the Catholic discipline of priestly celibacy, condemns those heresies (like the Manichaeans and Albigensians) which said marriage is evil because the body is evil.

frosbel: 1. Why do Catholics talk more about Mary than Jesus

We don't. That is a LIE spread by our detractors to uninformed people. Before & after any prayer as anyone knows, we make the sign of the cross "in the name of the Father and of THE SON (Jesus, incase you didn't know) and of the Holy Spirit. Our worship is centred on The Eucharist (which is Jesus). Even when we mention Mary, we always mention her son too, as in the "Hail Mary". That is the whole essence of praying through Mary (which is not done all the time)...it is for her to pray to Jesus for us.

frosbel: 2. Show us biblical evidence for the apparitions of Mary

We Catholics are not bound to believing only what is explicitly spelt out in scripture as you do. We believe in Sacred Scripture (the word of God passed to us by writing)...and Sacred Tradition (the word of God passed to us by word of mouth through an unbroken line of succession from the apostles to the present day priests.

2Thess 2:15 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

However, if you have an issue with apparitions, you should take it up with God who allows our Mother to reach out to us in such manner, not we who merely observe and believe what we see, hear and experience.

frosbel: 3. Show us biblical evidence with regards to the making of prayers to the dead.

Do you mean prayers to the Saints? They are not LIVING.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

We Catholics, like Martha believe this.

Do you believe this frosbel? Obviosly not.

Also, if you think that whatever is not found explicitlt stated in the Bible is wrong, you will have to provide the verse where the Bible says that.

Perhaps, you should even tell us where the Bible mentions the word Bible, or tells anyone to make a Bible.

If you cannot provide this, it means that your Bible Alone belief is NOT scriptural and false.

ijawkid: I was just attacking your answer to the OP......

The law on celibacy is trouble......

Refute it if you can with the scriptures....

1 Cor 7:25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.

Matt 19:10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

These verses show that celibacy is not unscriptural.

Frostyzone: Really? And who gave the priest the so called authority to absolve sins? How did you know that he was touched by God, or were you there when God supposedly appeared out of thin air and breathed on him?

Because I believe John when he writes: John 20:22 "And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Frostyzone: But wait, your church doesn't even believe in miracles!

Yes, we do, Sir. Unfortunately, you are grossly misinformed. I thought all 7 billion in the world knew that we believe in miracles, how is it that you don't know?

Frostyzone: On another note, your church teaches gender equality, and yet have never ordained a female priest ever. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that.

The Church doesn't teach that priests are superior to we lay people. So not having female priests has nothing to do with inequality. Equality, the way we see it, does not mean that every single person would be able to do anything he pleases. If it did, you and I would be able to live in the White House, wouldn't we (as equal humans)? But no! The white house is for the American president and others who are designated to live there with him. I don't see that as being against equality.

@ Ijawkid,

You will do well to look at all the previous posts to see how clearly and concisely they put their questions. I am finding it hard to know exactly what you want us to respond to or whether you are even answering your own concerns.

Not every discussion has to degenerate into one without direction, focus and decorum.

At least, the last time I checked, the title was: "Ask questions about the Catholic Church."

salt 1: The only infallible person is God. Humans can make mistakes based on knowledge level and understanding.

Your statement above means that the one below could possibly be WRONG, since you are human. Why are you then saying these things authoritatively as if you are sure that you are right. What if you are telling me and others things that will actually lead us to hell...

salt 1: But God will judge us by the things we have been exposed to.
When Jesus talks of building His church, it doesn't mean denomination. The church is the mystical body of Christ, the aggregate of all believers of all ages whose names are written in the book of life. As Jesus said, the time is coming when men will not be required to go to Jerusalem or any church to worship in order for their worship to be acceptable with God. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
You want to belong to the true church? Then you must be born again, forsake your past sins, repent of them and ask Jesus to change your life. You will know when He has forgiven you and you can ask Him which denomination to fellowship with in order to make heaven your eternal home

@ Bernimoore, many words has no correlation with making sense.

If your definition of "worship" is 'bowing and making supplication', then Joshua and the Israelites worshipped the Ark of the Covenant.

But if your definition of "worship" is that one must do it in disobedience to God "as the Catholics do" (as you say), then you don't worship God. Because I'm sure your mode of worship doesn't suit this description.

Simple as that.

Or would you like to change your definition of "worship" just to cover your inadequate logic and nail the Catholics alone?

Frostyzone: Why is the Catholic Church so hypocritical.
My reasons;
.
Self imposed celibacy. Why? Is it really necessary because you can't really cheat nature no matter how hard you try.

Matt 19:10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Apparently, you and many others cannot accept this word, but Catholic Priests have accepted it. Don't call it hypocrisy only because you can't do it and someone is is doing it. That is pride and envy, even though you might not realize it.

Frostyzone: .
Idol Adulation. Bowing down to statues even when your bible said otherwise.

But we never bow down to statues or worship them. Yes, we could bow before a statue or a holy object, but we are doing it in honour of the Saint or phenomenon which that statue or object depicts or represents... And we always give all the Glory to God who bestows such honour on the Saint or allows such phenomena to occur. We worship no one but God.

Frostyzone: .
Confession. A continuous confession program that enables the Catholics to do whatever they want, no holds barred, so far as their sins will be absolved the following week by a Priest.

You could say the same thing about God himself, in the understanding of non-Catholic Christians. He runs a continuous confession program that enables Christians to do whatever they want, no holds barred, so far their sins will be absolved at any point in time by God. Is this hypocritical?

God's program is no different or separate from that of the Church. Indeed it was God who breathed on the first priests and gave them power to forgive and retain sins. Are you blaming the Catholic Church for continuing to exercise that authority or you are blaming them for doing it frequently?

Canon 855: "Parents, sponsors, and the pastor are to take care that a name foreign to Christian sensibility is not given."

How does this mean that a native name cannot be used for baptism?

My baptismal name is my native name and it doesn't contradict Catholic doctrine.

Niflheim: Why is the pope's butler being prosecuted?what is his crime?

Theft.

Enigma: Anyway, I hope you realise that that teaching of the Roman Catholic 'Church' is false and contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and of the apostles.

I hope you know that you cannot prove this statement.

Enigma: OK, let me try another question: when did the expression "Roman Catholic Church" come into use?

The Anglicans are in a better position to answer that question. That term originated from them as a condescending way of referring to The Catholic Church.

k2039: Why are catholics the most hated?

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also."

The most basic reason. All other 'reasons' are as a result of this.

Enigma: Does the Roman Catholic Church regard the Anglican Communion (or Baptist "church" or Methodist "church" etc etc etc) as a "church" at all?

The Catholic Church does not regard these above-named "churches" as Churches (in the proper sense), because they do not have a true priesthood that can be traced to th apostles and therefore do not have true sacraments. It calls them "Ecclesial Communities."

k2039: Is it true only Roman catholics will make it to heaven

This is NOT what we are taught, hence, not what we believe.

alexleo: Its not about my church. Its about what is being preached and done. If u know anything about this church that is not biblical or that u r confused about pls write it here. If you go through this thread you ll see some people who raised issues about the church and i cleared them. You can still raise your own issue if you have any and if i find it convincing enough i ll raise it in my church for a change. All that am saying is that the message of holiness and eternity is lost in most churches these days. You people are busy protecting your church. Am not here for that.

Is the Apostolic Faith Church infallible or can it possibly be wrong when it teaches on anything concerning faith and morals?

When Jesus said "I will build my Church," is it The Apostolic Faith Church he was talking about?

If it is, why did it then wait until 1906 to be "founded?"

If it is not, then which one is, and why are you not there?

These are MY issues for now. Though I have many others but these ones are quite fundamental. Thank you.

ifeness: You do not need anyone to tell you not to judge anyone by his/her race,ethnicity or sexuality.

Adolf Hitler would disagree. What makes you think that you are right and he is wrong?

ifeness: The fact remains, CHRITIANITY IS DYING

DWINDLING, not dying. And what dwindles can flourish again.

What cannot die cannot be "dying."

...Although in the Bible, when Jesus or the Apostles prayed, they were usually calm and did it quietly.

...And we Christians should immitate Christ. But some would say no.

Their mates are making money doing stand-up comedy shows all over the place, they are here cracking jokes for free.

Boomark: Tell us what worship is.

What does an ignorant Catholic know?

I'm just looking for any anti-Catholic who know everything to teach my poor soul.

...And you've already taught/told me that you worship your parents (based on your definition of worship, which is to give honour and respect to something)...

...So let someone else teach me...

[quote author=bursturbrain ]all men to his form of worship, whatever works for you italo works for you, whatever works for bookmark works for you, deep down somein is jus not rite bout how catholics practice xtianity, dey changed a lot of things, sprinkling water as baptism instead of by immersion, believing a priest simply prayin for you can take a dying man to heaven, believing d pope can erase all ur sins, saying dere is purgatory, beseechin mary to talk to Jesus, changin 10 commandment to suite demself, as dey removed d dont bow before idol part and split d covet wife and property commandment in two, stil all men to deir belief[/quote]The question was 'what is your definition of "worship"'?

Is this the answer above?

Ihedinobi: @italo, I would love to discuss this part of the cathechism with you. It will not be now though. I hope you can countenance my interest. First off, I promise you I won't be attacking it, I will only be studying and evaluating it against the Scriptures using reason. Are you game, sir?

It would be a pleasure to discuss with you in a reasonable, objective, pleasant and honest manner.

Todaynatoday: ^^^^ um.......erm....... My guy, some of us are using mobile devices you know, that post is too damn long(and irrelevant).

Sorry about the length. I just couldn't find a way to shorten it.

...And it might be irrelevant to you...but maybe not to someone else, like Ihedinobi.

Ihedinobi: @italo, I would love to discuss this part of the cathechism with you. It will not be now though. I hope you can countenance my interest. First off, I promise you I won't be attacking it, I will only be studying and evaluating it against the Scriptures using reason. Are you game, sir?

It would be a pleasure to discuss with you in a reasonable, objective, pleasant and honest manner.

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life. When the Church for the last time speaks Christ's words of pardon and absolution over the dying Christian, seals him for the last time with a strengthening anointing, and gives him Christ in viaticum as nourishment for the journey, she speaks with gentle assurance:

Go forth, Christian soul, from this world
in the name of God the almighty Father,
who created you,
in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,
who suffered for you,
in the name of the Holy Spirit,
who was poured out upon you.
Go forth, faithful Christian!
May you live in peace this day,
may your home be with God in Zion,
with Mary, the virgin Mother of God,
with Joseph, and all the angels and saints. . . .

May you return to [your Creator]
who formed you from the dust of the earth.
May holy Mary, the angels, and all the saints
come to meet you as you go forth from this life. . . .
May you see your Redeemer face to face. 591

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
II. HEAVEN

1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602
1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."603

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.604
1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God's will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."605

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622
V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627
1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

*VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639
1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.640

1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."641

1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."642

1050 "When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom."643 God will then be "all in all" in eternal life:644

True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life.645

IN BRIEF

1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

1052 "We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ's grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies" (Paul VI, CPG § 28).

1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

1054 Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

1055 By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death" (GCD 69), also called "hell."

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26).

1059 "The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ's tribunal to render an account of their own deeds" (Council of Lyons II [1274]:DS 859; cf. DS 1549).

1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.


591 OCF, Prayer of Commendation.
592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10.
593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274):DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439):DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563):DS 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334):DS 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
598 1 Jn 3:2; cf. 1 Cor 13:12; Rev 22:4.
599 Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000; cf. LG 49.
600 Phil 1:23; cf. Jn 14:3; 1 Thess 4:17.
601 Cf. Rev 2:17.
602 St. Ambrose, In Luc.,10,121:PL 15 1834A.
603 1 Cor 2:9.
604 St. Cyprian, Ep. 58,10,1:CSEL 3/2,665.
605 Rev 22:5; cf. Mt 25:21,23.
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439):DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563):DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39:PL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274):DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5:PG 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.
612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
614 Cf. Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48.
615 Mt 13:41-42.
616 Mt 25:41.
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
618 Mt 7:13-14.
619 LG 48 § 3; Mt 22:13; cf. Heb 9:27; Mt 25:13,26,30,31-46.
620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529):DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
621 2 Pet 3:9.
622 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.
623 Acts 24:15.
624 Jn 5:28-29.
625 Mt 25:31,32,46.
626 Cf. Jn 12:49.
627 St. Augustine, Sermo 18, 4:PL 38,130-131; cf. Ps 50:3.
628 Cf. Song 8:6.
629 2 Cor 6:2.
630 Titus 2:13; 2 Thess 1:10.
631 LG 48; Cf. Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13.
632 2 Pet 3:13; Cf. Rev 21:1.
633 Eph 1:10.
634 Cf. Rev 21:5.
635 Rev 21:4.
636 Cf. LG 1.
637 Rev 21:2,9.
638 Cf. Rev 21:27.
639 Rom 8:19-23.
640 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 5,32,1:PG 7/2,210.
641 GS 39 § 1.
642 GS 39 § 2.
643 GS 39 § 3.
644 1 Cor 5:28.
645 St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catech. illum. 18,29:PG 33,1049.
646 Cf. Rev 22:21.
647 Isa 65:16.
648 Cf. Mt 6:2,5,16; Jn 5:19.
649 St. Augustine, Sermo 58,11,13:PL 38,399.
650 Rev 3:14.
651 2 Cor 1:20.

@ Bernimoore,

Since your definition of "worship" includes doing it in disobedience to God or "as the Catholics do to their Mary statue" like you put it, it then means nobody can worship God in obedience.

Disobedience is part of definition of "worship" so YOU don't worship God...

...Going by the way you reason.

Or do you want to redefine "worship" to fit your deficient logic?

@ bernimoore,

You didn't answer me still,

You said 'worship' involves bowing to and making supplication,

Joshua bowed and made supplication

So did he worship the Ark of the the Covenant or not?

Its a 'yes or no' question.

No need for long meaningless stories.