₦airaland Forum

You can download it from here and simply burn to a DVD.
http://stagevu.com/video/vgwmqmezkzrt

or

http://stagevu.com/video/riwlmibrolgx

Hope that helps.

^that's like saying vacation spots in Cleveland

This week in Posterized featuring a mix of Griffin's crimes. Victims include the NY Knicks, Lakers and Hornets

  Dunkfest against NY Dis guy chop correct winch before this game for real
[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aspCHyeOLPQ?fs=1&hl=en_US"[/flash]
[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JroN-ZCR_zg?fs=1&hl=en_US'[/flash]
[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHtqR2hW0hk?fs=1&hl=en_US"[/flash]

^it should be Christina Posh 

A-40 I hear you oh o jare.

Somebody issue a warrant! Blake Griffin needs to be arrested asap for abuse:

https://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-11/57805018.jpg

^lol.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=553809.msg7203174#msg7203174 date=1290538340]Wow!  Thank you for asking that question JeSoul.  [/quote]Thank you for answering it with such depth.

The plurality can take multiple content depending on what the political issue is.  Obama, many years ago while still a community organizer raised the possibility of resource re-distribution to give social balance.  The target of that program is a plurality that can comprise of all people of many racial backgrounds who by certain social measures fall in the dis-enfranchised (dis-empowered) category of the demographics, as supported by both statistical data and census results.  However, while popular stereotypes would suggest that this plurality is the Black population, we (data consumers) have come to accept. . . . . given the current economic hardships, that it is fluid.  A person who 10yrs ago was on a $100,000.00 salary and would be offended to be labeled "poor" is now today on food stamp and in a shelter home. 

So the "we" is a grouping. . . . . a band of people energized for change in the social imbalance.  As you have witnessed, Tea Party is energized on the opposite side to that and have argued repeatedly that the constitution does not warrant social balance. . . . it only fundamentally guarantees liberty, freedom and the pursuit of happiness and that every other articles under that is an enumeration. 

If you look at the partyline, "we" would translate to what side of the politik one is standing on - as in "we, the Repubs" or "we the Dems", or "we whatever party"!

Again, it is fluid and you can dribble in and out of it as the content of the argument changes but the theme remains the same.

I really like the above as it provides extremely fertile ground to sow the seeds of productive and profitable discourse.

Before I make any real comments, might I ask, where do you stand on the side of the "we" and more importantly, why do you stand there?

^lol. Cool. InesQor none for you sha . . . you said you don't drink so here's some 1% orange juice for you
https://www.thegiantnapkin.com/images/orange-juice.jpg

You're posh? ah no vex . Here's one of my favorites,

https://montevista-littleton.myaptportal.com/files/2010/09/chocolate-wine-strawberry.jpg

Just add the strawberries to the wine glass, and then take a bite of chocolate in between sips. You'll be in the 3rd heavens

Thanks for the response again Jo. Let me focus on the bit I'm sure most pple are interested in -

Joagbaje:
The pastor feeds the sheep. He is a gift to them . To perfect them .

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


Paul's ministry didn't just cover Christian service. He was involved in their day to day activities. He dealth with their attitude at work, duty to government, civil activities, business. marital affairs, sex and abstiness, Health, the home, raising kids, etc.

1 Peter 2:17
17 Honour all[ men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Colossians 3:18-23
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love[ your] wives, and be not bitter against them. 20 Children, obey[ your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. 21 Fathers, provoke not your children[ to anger], lest they be discouraged. 22 Servants, obey in all things[ your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: 23 And whatsoever ye do, do[ it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Romans 12:11
11 Never be lazy in your work. . . .

I think many will agree that the word of God gives guidelines and principles for virtually all matters pertaining to life. And I don't think any of the scripture verses you provided adequately address your position that the pastor is to be involved in all aspects of the believers life - but rather that their job as leadership is to communicate the word to the congregation. And I submit the job of 'communication of the word' does not confer on the leadership the 'rights of the authority of the word'.

Q1: Consider this:
Master: a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something. An owner. An employer.
Overseer:  to direct; supervise; manage. To survey or watch, as from a higher position.

The bible uses overseer/guide/leader to describe church leadership - but the title of master is reserved for Christ. Do you think the position of 'master' is infact being occupied by the elevated role of pastors today? such that the congregation go to him/her instead of going directly to Christ? and idolatry begins to seep in and take firm root?

-We see phenomena like going to the pastor to ask permission to marry, getting the pastors approval before making family/business decisions, congregants going out their way and finances to please the pastor and gain favor -  Are all these not symptoms of a master-servant relationship?

But that should not lead to any form of uncleanness . If anyone is misbehaving immorally , it is a personal problem he has , it has nothing to do with the pastoral work. It is his indiscipline.

Q2: Can you please explain what you mean here? Is a man's behavior seperate from his "pastor-hood"?

A real pastor leads people to Christ and not to himself. His fulfilment is to make them stand and grounded in the word of God.

I like this quote a lot! Amen to that . . . however you almost negate yourself by saying this:

People don't just obey the word  by reading , the pastor, has to make them do it. Some by teaching and admonition others with Cain.

This thoroughly confuses me Jo.
Q3: Can you please explain what you mean here as well? Thanks!

eyzhvntsn:
Madam JeSoul, I dey greet u o. I greeted in one thread like that but u didn't greet me back I no vex o. Well done sha.

Ah Sista I no see am oh! no vex ehn. I greet you 1000X back 

Here's some kola nut to help gain your forgiveness
https://cache.virtualtourist.com/1/4020644-Kola_Nuts-Africa.jpg

Nuclearsir oga how you dey now? Maybe Jo is busy at the moment, he said he was at a conference abi?

^if they simply needed bodies then they can give more minutes to the hungrys guys on the bench. They need proven, veteran, talented bodies. The Charlotte Bobacats of all franchises did not see it fit to sign him from the preseason  - now the same guy is looking like gold to a staggering Heat team. Kai! see how condition has made crayfish to bend 

The Heat are about to sign the trash from A-40's Mavericks Ericka Dampier . . . well, I'm sure they didn't really have many options to replace Haslem

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=344420.msg7179848#msg7179848 date=1290223506]@Jesoul
Abegi! Its easy to lead when you have O.G's like Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. I for one think Dirk is under_rated cos he's white. There I said it!
Its easy to join the bandwagon and follow the well-known cliche but anyone that watches the game knows Dirk gives his all on the court.
Peeps say he is not rebounding yet over his career he has averaged almost 9 with a block per game to boot yet they make it sound like he does nada[/quote]    I won't say under-rated, but I'll say he doesn't get as much love as he would if he was mocha.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=344420.msg7179864#msg7179864 date=1290223955]SMH at the Celts losing to a Durant-less Thunder! Jesoul must be royally pissed[/quote]Wasted my $150+ to watch a loss and Rondo go down with an injury . . .

DapoBear:
My boy chris bosh is back

are you sure? 

bawomolo:
the bills just crushed the bengals after being down by 17. wow.

Usually when the word "crushed" is being used in reference to the bills, they're usually on the receiving end. Bengals have fallen so low so fast . . . I wonder what Chad and TO will be talking about on their new TOCHO show

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=553809.msg7202737#msg7202737 date=1290532974]Tayo,

I am grateful for your feedback. I like honest and bold talk like you just gave.

It is too simplistic and naive. . . I want to say juvenile, to imagine, like you said, that "the rank and file of Tea Partiers are glued to the TV set staking their political fortune on whether or not the daughter (not even the mama herself) wins DWTS?"

We do not live in a world of normal reality anymore. . . . . the reality we live in now is plastic. A synthetic theatre of make-believe. Do you disagree?

The consequence of dismissing Sarah Palin and the breadth of her circle of influence has given [size=14pt]us[/size] an undesirable outcome with the last mid term election. Would you disagree with this as well?

The incoming House of Reps, in full force of Tea Party members, will undo many of the social programs that [size=14pt]we[/size] all know are necessary to promote social equity. Would you disagree?[/quote]Who exactly is "us" and "we" Negro?

InesQor:
LOL I always burst into laughter whenever the Catholic church is mentioned and chukwudi44 magically appears!

I love it, love it!!!

The thing fear me oh my brother. Its like his computer is set to recognize the keyword 'catholic' and direct him to the thread.

Chukwudi, in the interest of not diverting the main point, let me make a concession:

JeSoul:
[s]-Both have a central figure of authority that is head over the worldwide church[/s]

and replace with this -
-both share the same veneration for Mary the mother of Jesus

  Point is - from Firebrand's post (nice ID by the way) he pointed out what he thought to be the most disturbing characteristics of Cele, I simply pointed out these characteristics are not unique to only Cele - but infact shared by the most popular church in christianity the RCC.

armyofone:
Jesoul, please ask mama grizzy bear to take her daughter out of there, please

how much are you going to pay me?  I've never watched the show jare. And like you, I prefer to do my own dancing in my living room . I think people are giving the show and bristol way more attention and credit than it remotely deserves.

Joagbaje:
@jesoul
I doubt if he can lay hands on that. And if he does , it might be too voluminous to pit up here. Why not ask him for their Statement Of Faith rather. It's just in few lines.

Yeah true. I was interested in the depth of what the church believes.

firebrand:
Dear s-prayer, in a bid to justify some of your unchristian practices, you quickly concluded that some christians dont have the old testament in their Holy Bible. I would like you to explain the following baffling questions to non cele members in line with the scripture.

1. Why must you worship in white garments and barefooted like obatala worshipers.
2.Why the use of candles, perfumes, incense etc for prayers like some mallam does.
3.The name 'holy michael' is always rendered or echoed like Jesus. Are you praying to an angel(s).
4.Tell us more about the founder of cele and how he was commissioned; his ministry and marital life.

Eagerly awaiting.

As a side note, I think that when you compare the Celestial Church with the Catholic Church, there are more similar than not - in the physical manifestation of their 'worship'.
-Both invoke angels
-Both use incense and holy water
-Both have special clothing/regalia (at least for the clergy)
-Both have a central figure of authority that is head over the worldwide church

  I think Cele gets more flack and attack because it is 'native' appears 'crude' and while the CCC is 'foreign' and 'older' and more established. Not trying to debate or anything, just a quick observation.

Joagbaje:
@jesoul
The pastoral system. This is the pyramid kind of structure . The pastor is the head of the structure. There are leaders and elders but they are accountable p to the pastor and not the other way round.

Congregational system: This is a democratic system mostly practice in America . They vote from among the members , who should be the pastor. So it rotates from one to another.

Presbitarian system: is a church government led by groups of elders. The pastor reports to them, they dictate what he preaches.
 
The Episcopal system.  is the one practised by roman catholic and Anglican.

Great. thanks!

Churches that didnt have a pastor , had anarchy problem in the days of the apostle. Headship is a spiritual law. From beginning of creation. Even though male and female have equal right in christ,That didn't abolish the headship of the man. God never led people by many but by one man. Timothy may ordain elders, but they are still submitted to him as their pastor, while timothy is submitted to Paul. Some elders handled things in a local church then because an ordained pastor hasn't been sent there.

Q1: What role/s can women play in the church leadership structure? are they allowed to be pastors? deacons? bishops? prophets? teachers? etc

The pastor ought to be involved with every aspect of life, so long as the word of God covers those areas. Even sex withing marriage. If a man denies his wife. The pastor will teach him what the scripture says about not denying her . Vice versa. Since the word of God cover every aspect of life. The pastor work covers all too. He is a guide.

I know many people will take exception to your belief here on the pastors job covering virtually the entire sphere of a person's life.
Q2: Can you give us a few scripture verses that support your belief here above?

Q3: What pitfalls or dangers have you seen (or do you anticipate) from a follower having such an intimate relationship with a spiritual leader? We have seen abuse of this kind of powerful authority in issues like pastors sleeping with women in the church, manipulating finances to their benefit etc etc.

Q4: Do you think it may be more biblical if this intimacy is rather shared with Holy Spirit? afterall isn't that what His job is? it would seem like the pastor is stepping into a role that is meant for someone else doesn't it?

Thanks.

asadokie:
@joagbaje, chukudi44, and all other contributors to this thread (and the one that initiated it)

christianity is 2000 years old, and most christians today have no idea of church history. We only depend on what our pastors have told us. Most people don't even know how the Bible came about ( i assure you some people think it dropped from heaven). Arguments of this nature will continue forever.

That's exactly what the devil wants, and he is achieving it. Rather than us dealing with the fundamental christian issues - to live the true christian life and expose what is clearly evil, we come to forums as this (and in public) to showcase our stupidity and ineptitude on the teachings of Christ.

The Pentecostal always wants to show that his pastor knows everything, and justifies all that he does and teaches with the Bible (including putting on jerry curls and living lavishly on the tithes of HIS Church member) while the Catholic always wants to sink it down the throat of non-catholics that the Catholic Church is the only Church recognized by Christ and every body must accept Her teaching regardless of the person's background. in the long run, we do little good for the kingdom of God, and sin continues to thrive even in our very midst, and the devil keeps laughing at us all.

For instance, how does chukwudi expect a person who has been taught by Protestants (which simple means to protest catholic teachings) all his life to understand the communion of the saints and intercession of Mary, purgatory, images, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist etc.? Is he sure he would believe it if he were born Protestant? How does Joagbaje expect a deep rooted Catholic (like myself) to accept teachings that stemmed just within the last 400 years (and even less than 10 years as the case my be), of which many Pentecostals/Protestants have contradicted themselves in what seems to be a "worldwide pentecostal confusion", and abandon teachings that came to us from Church Fathers like Augustine and Jerome even before the Bible was assembled in its present form? Its not going to work.

So let’s learn to stop all these church bashing and focus on the real issues like sexual immorality in the church, siphoning of church members money in the name of seed sowing for never ending projects, neglect of the poor, worldliness, and complete departure from emphasis on the afterlife. I suppose if we focus on these, nobody would need to be told if he is in the right or wrong place for the true Spirit of God (wether he is in Heaven or sent on exile to earh) would lead you into all truths.

But that the devil may show that he is in control of many, we would continue to waste our time arguing on issues that have proved to be irresolvable, while he continues his job of leading millions to Hell on a daily basis.

May God in heaven continue to bless you with wisdom and understanding.

Nice topic. I would readily say the problems you've observed in your church are most certainly not unique to only Cele.

Can you post a copy of the church constitution here on the thread?

Joagbaje:
@jesoul
  There are 4 basic structure of church government. We have the : pastoral, presibitarian system, The congregational system and the episcopal system. But the pastoral system is the scriptural one.

Q1: For those of us who don't know, can you briefly bullet-point the description of each of the 'systems' above?

God doesn't lead by Majority, he leads through one leader.

Q2: A most interesting quote. If I may, I'd like to introduce some material from a past thread to help enhance the discussion (shout-out to TV01 here ) Jo, what are you thoughts/comments on this point of view on church structure? do you see any merit to some of it? parts of it?

---

TV01:
In order to further facilitate progress and ultimately conclusion of this discussion, permit me if you will, to state some of my own convictions. Of course these are subject to question and scrutiny in the light of scripture.

1. A congregation is to be shepherded by a plurality of suitably qualified elders. With non having the pre-eminence or being in someway elevated amongst the others.

2. The five-fold functions detailed in Ephesians 4:11 for the most part should have a finite/limited use in the life of an individual believer. They represent one aspect – mostly physical, not spiritual aspect - of Christian need and development

3. Church – as fellowship – is a part of the life of a Christian, but it is but one of many spheres of life, not the most important and the others are in no way subject to it.

4. Your Christian faith, beliefs and worldview should of course colour and drive all your actions.

5. Aggregating 3. and 4. above, please note “church” as fellowship is not the full articulation of the Christian life or the sum total of it. In extreme’s may not actually be a part of that life and in any event, can take forms other than that generally espoused by CRG’ today.

6. The word rendered pastor in the bible is synonymous with elder, bishop, episcopas, presbyter, shepherd etc

Of blueprints & patterns;
In the NT narrative, God gave a blueprint for Christian fellowship. The apostles – most notably Paul – were charged with rolling out and fully disseminating this blueprint for church. This work was foundational. Not to be and not required to be endlessly repeated. Once rolled out, the church would be self-propagating. Akin in some ways to the creational seeding and the subsequent “after its kind” propagation.

The apostolic in terms of what Paul et al were doing, in terms of rolling out the pattern, is no longer required. That job is done. In reading the scriptural narrative, we must align, function, role, and above all context.

So when Paul wrote to Timothy at Ephesus? and exhorted him to “raise suitably qualified elders”, that was so the church there could be fully functional and stand alone. He was writing as an apostle (master builder), to Timothy (helping build). He was not writing to Timothy as a sole authority regional pastor developing a network of overseen churches.

Wherever Paul rolled out the blueprint of church it was the same. Raise up suitably qualified elders and move on. In writing to these same churches, he always addressed the elders/shepherds/bishops in plurality. The blueprint did not give leave to a SAP.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-397372.32.html
for the audience: See also this throw-back thread: Church Structure & Sole Authority Pastors  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-30552.0.html

---

A pastor is involved to the extent the members submit to him. He is involved with everything the holyghost is involved with.  Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his health challenge. That's a pastor . His duty is to feed, lead ,guide, guard the flock .  If a man is beating his wife, the pastor has a say . It is not a civil case. The church is a world on it's own. If a member does not want the pastor involved in certain affairs of his, the pastor can't force it. It's the member that loses out.

So am I correct in summarizing that you believe the Pastor should be involved in every aspect of the flock's life?
Q3: Is there any area at all that should not fall under the pastor's jurisdiction? such as personal intimate matters eg. sex within marriage? or personal/family finance matters ? or in the case of domestic abuse, shouldn't that be forwarded to the police authorities?

^Thanks for replying to Seyi's questions, but . . .

SeyiBrown, please save other questions you may have for Jo for later. I'd like to proceed with the interview in an organized manner and to other issues, or else we'll all just be going round in endless circles. Thanks!

^no problem Jo. Take all the time you need, we'll be here

You people sef . . . I'm gone for 2 days and there's 2 pages worth of stuff.
Joagbaje, your artwork is really good. If I were there I'd have bought one (assuming I can afford you self )

[size=14pt]Oya no more off-topic/interview chat folks, the interview is back on. Please hold questions till later, brief/short comments are okay [/size]

---

Joagbaje, assuming my last summary of your positions as stated here are correct:

JeSoul:
Summary on the issue of false ministers and church structure
- In 2 Tim 4:3, Paul was not refering to pastors being false teachers in that verse but rather outsiders that 'itching' members of the church pursue after

- A pastor within a church cannot be false - he will not last - the false ones are outside trying to bring down the structure inside

- Mt 24:24 ("For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect"is not a scripture applicable to today's christians/church but rather the Jews in the end-times

- Rebuking of church leaders should come from the "top - down" not "down - up". We should go privately to them if we can or simply pray for them if we can't. Speaking out in public against men of God is against God's will and keeps potential people from getting saved

- If a person can perform miracles using the name of Christ/a man calls Christ His Lord - then they are genuine christians

- You'd rather not speak on adverts like I posted as you don't know the motives behind their actions, and some of the things they may teach may be helpful - but you prefer to avoid these kinds of issues (and thanks for replying on that too).

---

--> let us move on from false ministers/brethren/teachers to Church structure/leadership-flock dynamics.

Q1: In your view, what is the leadership structure of the church supposed to look like? Is it a pyramid structure? of one head pastor who calls the shots, a VP below, then others below etc etc? - or is it more like a joint board, where power is distributed horizontally and members of the leadership are equal and make decisions together as opposed to from the top down?

Q2: What is the extent of the role church leadership is supposed to play in the lives of the congregation? How much "authority" does a pastor have over the flock? to what aspects/areas of their lives does this authority extend to? Is it limited to only spiritual matters? financial? relational? academic? occupational? etc

@ the Audience -
I know some of you are eager to jump on after Jo's last response  . . . but for the sake of sake we have to move on. Once the interview is wrapped up, then we can proceed to debate and discuss properly.

---

Jo thanks for taking the time out from your busy schedule to answer us, I really appreciate the time and effort you've invested in thoroughly answering our questions. So to summarize your position[i]s[/i] (please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere), for the sake of clarity and those reading, you believe that:

Summary on the issue of false ministers and church structure
- In 2 Tim 4:3, Paul was not refering to pastors being false teachers in that verse but rather outsiders that 'itching' members of the church pursue after

- A pastor within a church cannot be false - he will not last - the false ones are outside trying to bring down the structure inside

- Mt 24:24 ("For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect"is not a scripture applicable to today's christians/church but rather the Jews in the end-times

- Rebuking of church leaders should come from the "top - down" not "down - up". We should go privately to them if we can or simply pray for them if we can't. Speaking out in public against men of God is against God's will and keeps potential people from getting saved

- If a person can perform miracles using the name of Christ/a man calls Christ His Lord - then they are genuine christians

- You'd rather not speak on adverts like I posted as you don't know the motives behind their actions, and some of the things they may teach may be helpful - but you prefer to avoid these kinds of issues (and thanks for replying on that too).

---

   ^^^so please correct any of the above that does not represent you properly. I am usually not online over the weekends so we'll take a 2 day recess and resume the interview on monday if you're willing. One last question - can you please respond to Kunle's last question (though I think we already know your answer). Thanks and we'll continue soon . . .

KunleOshob:
@Jesoul
I crave your indulgence in allowing to contribute one question to the interview.

@ Joagbaje
Given your position not to critisize any man of God wether he is false or called, how do you suggest we handle preachers like the infamous and notorious convicted criminal Rev King who not only use to physically assault his members, was confirmed to be sleeping with member's wives openly and even proceeded to murder a member of the church in broad day light. As members of the body of christ should we just ignore him cause it is "his" church? And as the pastor he has dominion over his flock. Should we just keep quiet and watch him destroy lives and later lead them to hell just becos he claims to be "annointed" even when it is obvious that he like several other pastors don't display the fruits Jesus said we should use to recognize false prophets. As a christian if we see brethen being led on the expressway to hell are we supposed to keep quiet so as not to disrupt a pastor's ministry?

You may have better luck if you post this in the Auto section .

^smoking national enquirer papers again are you? Its only noon now, you should wait at least till you get off work first

^open you mouth again when you're playing the Pats or Jets and we'll see wassup

thanks though for keeping our division rivals down in the loss column

Where's RikkyGenerator? Pats vs Colts this weekend. Men vs boys this weekend
_{walahi! Pats berra win after my trashtalking}

^ For the last time, please no more posts on this seating wahala, the point has been made. Please open a new topic if you want to continue discussing it.

^kai! you too like to find trouble

Meanwhile I'll be at the Garden do you have any personal message you want me to give to Rondo tonight? like say an apology?

Sagamite:
I agree but that should only be done by one of the intellectuals of society like me after a lecture telling them why they are about to be slapped.

[flash=400,350]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy_4eSR6fUI[/flash]

Lol . . . I dunno if you can be entrusted with the power of slap Sag. I just know you're going to be trigger-happy with it see how you're e-slapping people on NL, if that is a sign of things to come then . . .

bawomolo:
you see the way she slapped him then ran away. wimp

why couldn't see wait for retaliation and the ensuing falcon punch.

LOL how she no go run? you think say she be fool?