₦airaland Forum

^you really are blessed at providing comic relief Whatchu know about Ochocinco sef? you watch American football?

Sweetnecta:
many without religious hence spiritual faith, like Bill Gate, Mouth of the south Ted Turner do good work; i will say noble work. They have no faith at all. They do not believe there is God. is it not therefore that their good work is their faith or at least the reason for faith in the work, to keep going at it because of the end product; result of the work?

Perhaps if you are paying attention and taking down notes you may have noticed pretty much everyone is in agreement 'works' alone by itself is worthless and as pastor said 'unsustainable'. We are discussing something else - works that result from faith from people who have not heard about Jesus. So siddon for corner and pay attenshion jor. Abi body dey scratch you so?

^5Star, oga you still never touch the center of my question now . . .

Please can you give us your explanation of the Amazonian man & Romans 2:14

(Indeed, when Gentiles (like our amazonian man), who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Biko, what happens to people who have never been fortunate to hear about Jesus and His sacrifice? but fit the good bill in Paul's description above? Notice also that he ends by saying God will judge them based on how they followed these laws on their hearts. Gracias bro.

shooze:
I think the government should place a ban on public religious activities . Since the Muslim fast started the mosque near my house starts blaring from as early as 3am and does not let up to 6am and we will have to endure this for the next 30 days. It gets worse when a church is having revival and then it becomes a competition as they both try to outdo themselves . This is downright wickedness under the guise of religion. Government please do something

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-123896.0.html
Noisy Places Of Worship

I feel your pain. The practice of ones religion should not infringe on others peace. Its also the fault of the govt. There should be much better zoning and planning such that churches/mosques should not be allowed to build in residential areas. Sorry ehn. Buy very good ear plugs or sound proof your windows . . .

Pastor AIO:
Employee that goes to work all week does so in the BELIEF that Employer is going to give him his wages at the end of the week.

Loverboy that jumps on a plane to travel 6000 miles to see fiancee does so in the BELIEF that he and her are truly in love.

Forex trader that dumps his dollars in order to buy Gold does so in the BELIEF that the currency will drop in value and Gold is safer.

In fact every action that a man or woman commits is backed by some belief or the other unless the person is uncertain and just taking a chance.

The guy that dropped his yansh only to fall on the floor to everybody's amusement did not do it to amuse his classmates. He believed that there was a chair there, and in fact he had seen the chair only half a second before. What he didn't count on was that one of his classmates would pull the chair from underneath him just at the point when he dropped his yaansh.

A man who leaves the security of his home to wander aimlessly through canaan does so cause he believed in El who told him to do so. 'It was counted as righteousness for him'.

Faith and belief are counted as righteousness. But pretty much everything we do is a product of our faith and belief.

The man who is paying tithes in anticipation of blessings is doing so in faith. He believes his pastor.

The man who shelters and feeds the poor is also demonstrating an act of faith. I think this separation of Faith and Works is much too contrived.

The man who professes faith from the mountaintop yet whose actions do not demonstrate the same faith is merely fooling his fellows, and possibly also himself. It is impossible for the church to be growing in Nigeria and for Nigeria and nigerians to be in the state that they are in.

Your works is a product of your faith. They are inseparable. So when we hear that faith without works is dead, really that dead faith was never really faith in the first place. Works without faith is unsustainable. Nobody can keep doing an action that they do not believe in.

LOL at the examples. And the summary really is the gist of the matter.

So to respond to this:
I would say that they had faith in the intimations of their heart, and it is counted to them as righteousness.

Gbam.

Faith comes by hearing but many are hearing everyday and are professing faith, but the works do not follow. Have they really got that faith?

Infact I think we need to do a whole thread on this part alone.

What does it mean to HEAR the word of God?

Is it while sitting in church and listening to the pastor? or a transit-preacher on the bus? or the televangelists on TV? or a street-corner armageddonist? or a cd or tape with TD Jakes? Like you said, plenty people are hearing (just like the Israelites) but there is no real faith that is 'coming'.

  What does it mean to HEAR the word of God? that produces this faith?

On the flip side, there are obviously plenty people who have never 'heard' the 'word of God' preached yet managed to have faith. So is it also by the prodding and tugging as the Holy Spirit communicates and convicts a heart? and such a person 'hears' these spiritual communications and acts on them by faith? If Jesus is the word of God manifest and the Spirit of Christ has been moving and operating among men since the foundations of the world, can we say people of every tribe and nation have been 'hearing the word of God'?

What does it mean to HEAR the word of God? I'd like to see peoples thoughts on this.

Other people spend all their last dime on the pastor in the faith that their bills will miraculously be paid. Maybe someone pulled the chair from underneath them in the last minute. Or maybe they didn't see this passage in Proverbs 22:
16[b]he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.[/b]

LOL  that is my new favorite verse!  Don't you know you're supposed to 'sow into the lives' of successful mogs? so that you can 'tap into their annointing'? 

Image123:
Sista JeSoul
The whole of Romans is harping about justification by faith in Christ Jesus, it seems you've managed to miss that. Was Cornelius justified or saved before he met Peter?

Snr Brother Image,
  I will agree I have missed something if you take a shot at answering my last post to 5Star, especially the Amazonian man & Romans 2:

JeSoul:
Consider a man who lives in the Amazon rainforest in one of the indigenous tribes that have still been untouched by the outside world. Like his ancestors, he has never heard of Jesus or the "word of God" or the bible but he follows the imprinted laws of God on his heart and loves his fellow man as himself. It is such a person that Romans 2 is talking about:

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Can you still insist that such a man cannot be justified because he has not first had this "faith" that comes by hearing the "gospel of Christ"? Is that Romans is saying? See this verse also below . . . from every nation God will accept people who do what is right:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Romans and the entire NT (and even OT self) is all about Justification through Christ - the operative word being 'through'. The problem is our limited and flawed understanding of the totality of what this 'through Christ' really means. A man may have never 'heard of' Christ - but if as Rms 2 says - he obeys the law of God in his heart and by his conscience, such a man indeed has Christ and will be saved through Christ.

Enigma:
^^^ [size=14pt]Is it not possible for a person who has not "known" or "received" Christ (e.g. those who have not heard about him at all or those who do not understand) to feel and know the love of God? [/size]And upon feeling and knowing the love of God, to produce the "works" i.e. to live according to the tenets of Jesus' teaching ----- even without "knowing" or "receiving" him? Please also read chapters 2 to 5 of the book of Romans carefully.

Infact it is not only possible - we see scriptural examples of it. 
 

[size=14pt]Can we really say that only those who have "publicly confessed" or who have said a "sinner's prayer" or "given their life" etc etc are the only ones in whom Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells?[/size]

Are we using our own traditions and faulty reasoning to undermine the simple enough teachings of Christ?

Infact ehn, thank you for this line. In 1Pet we learn that the Spirit of Jesus Christ has been operating and interacting with humans long long before He manifested physically in the flesh . . .
  1Pet 1: Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
Abi the spirit of Christ was only limited to a special nationality/group of people? of Jewish descent? Or do we believe the bible that says God does not show favoritism?

So many excellent responses! Lemme start with my brother 5Star,

I read your last response to me and if you don't mind I'll respond to just the last bit

5STAR:
But if you are talking about Romans 2, then it is clear what the bible says, , All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law, vs 12 NIV  , this is before Jesus, and we know that the bible says the law couldn't save any man talk less of the law of the conscience these people were not justified by natural laws in their hearts they were by THE WORD OF GOD TO THEM WHICH THEY HEARD AND OBEYED, (FAITH COMES BY HEARING , AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD)
hope i tried?   

Ah you have indeed tried jare. Let us re-consider a few things you mentioned that I bolded . . . I think you may be mixing seperate issues.

Consider a man who lives in the Amazon rainforest in one of the indigenous tribes that have still been untouched by the outside world. Like his ancestors, he has never heard of Jesus or the "word of God" or the bible but he follows the imprinted laws of God on his heart and loves his fellow man as himself. It is such a person that Romans 2 is talking about:

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Can you still insist that such a man cannot be justified because he has not first had this "faith" that comes by hearing the "gospel of Christ"? Is that Romans is saying? See this verse also below . . . from every nation God will accept people who do what is right:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=724870.msg8841678#msg8841678 date=1312317716]@JeSoul,
That won't be the first or the last time.  Rest assured though, I can handle all of dem delinquents and propagandists alike.  God pass all of dem.[/quote]  lol.

That's a shame isn't it?  It is McCain Part 2 all over again.  I personally like Romney and T-Paw but I think both are very malleable under various circumstances. Knowing the kind of pressure a President is subjected to, I will love someone who has the backbone and the constitution to stand their ground without backing down.  This is where personalities like Bachmann and maybe Palin appear more acceptable.

A real darn shame. Malleable is downright the perfect word for Romney. He doesn't come off to me as someone with the strongest of convictions. On the flipside Bachmann and my hunting buddy Palin do, but they're just such polarizing figures. I believe it is possible to be of an ideological persuation but be able to win the (reasonable) opposition. And having an opinion on a matter doesn't mean you're always right, but be willing to listen to the other side as well. The more I look at politics - especially we the populace - the more I think our major differences are just misunderstandings. We all want the same thing (for the most part) - I think its the politicians that are screwing with us . . . 

At the national stage also, we are giving Obama an immediate debt ceiling increase of up to $900 billion dollars to be spent right away between now and December but the corresponding cut will be spanned over 10 years. What sort of accounting trick is that?

Lol . . .  you've done your homework. I haven't looked into the details of the deal. Everything na trickery now I will like to think they made out as best they could  not that I trust any of them. But word is the new sheriffs in town (tea party congressfolk) are laying the law down, we can be at least hopeful the spending spree will be halted. We can slowly eat into the debt one bill at a time . . .   

And by the way, the cut is not really to existing bloated programs but to anticipated and base-lined future increase in the government. I am really tired of this nonsense from both sides. No one wants to do the right thing, and all are only concerned about the next election. It's frustrating!!!

Really hmmm . . . do you have a link where I can check out the bill?

But you have heard it before now Tayo, a politician only has 2 jobs: ¹Get elected ²Stay elected 

[quote author=G_Syntax link=topic=698145.msg8841008#msg8841008 date=1312310214]@ George D and Ictewand, guys you both spoke well, but the truth is that some of these diet stuff do not work for some people like me. I actually do not know my weight as at now, but I am very slim. My sis and bro are starving to loose weight, despite the fact that all of us live in the same house and ea t the same food ( I even eat more than all of them). Being fat is not really in our family, yet they are big cos of worth we eat @ home.

When I found out that there seems to be no hope from eating well & plenty, I resorted to midnight meals and plenty junks. I drink upto 2 minerals and 1 bottle of malt per day, yet no show. I have given up, really, but I still do d junk thingy.[/quote]@those trying to gain weight,

   you need to be careful and make sure you're not actually doing harm to your body. Know your body type! You may be at your healthiest at your current weight - that is what God & nature gave you and you should learn to embrace and love it. Going on a binge of junk carbohydrates & fat & sugar in an effort to fatten up may not only prove futile (like the above poster) but in addition alter your body chemistry/balance, sky-rocket your cholesterol & blood sugar levels - all these are not healthy for you. They will clog your arteries, strain your liver, put stress on your other organs, zap your energy levels and much more.

  My advice to the skinny ones trying to gain weight is to instead aim to put on more muscle. Get in a regimen of weight training - staying away from cardio/aerobics. Eat often & high calorie foods, but make sure they are the healthy ones. Find a good muscle-building protein shake that will aid you.

  You cannot change your body-type! It is what it is. Embrace it and instead aim to be at the healthiest of your type of body - not change to something else (that will probably not work) without doing drastic damage to your health.

Good luck .

Tayo all by your lonesome in here huh?

You already know how I feel about Bachmann. So far my opinion has not changed for the better. With all the polls going round, I think the nomination is Mitt Romney's to loose . . . unless voters go very differently once primary season comes around. It just seems to me that there really isn't any solid candidate out there . . . unless the Texan decides to throw in his hat and makes things really interesting. Me I'm not holding my breath. I am with you on the spending part . . . something, someone, somewhere must put a stop to the cash-spree the govt. has been on. The entire nation must tighen our collective belt and try to slowly eat into the debt before the titanic sinks.

---

Ibime,
   troublemaker. Wassup now? How bodi? Hope everything is green, sunshine & gravy and your cup is full to overflowing .

Now that I have greeted you . . .  make I talk my own. I think you're being pop-tartish on that quote from Bachmann - and I'm not a fan of her. Once read in context, I find absolutely nothing wrong with what she said, or is it a crime for a white person to ever mention the word slavery or talk about problems the African-american community is facing?

Well . . . this is what happens when you open the door and start down the slippery slope. If muslim women are exempted from the policy, I see no reason why anyone else - claiming the persuation of religion - cannot do the same.

Adopt one policy and make it standard for all and you won't have all these kinds of ridiculous suits. If she wins now, that one na jackpot 

5STAR:
^^^^^.
, Dear Sista Jesoul, i haven't said the works are not at all important, but i am saying it is the FAITH that now brings about the works, FAITH first then the fruits (works) not the Works first, IT IS ACKNOWLEDGING "THE SACRIFICE OF GOD THAT SAVES" all others is just playing religion,

Dear brother 5Star

  I do recognize that you didn't say 'works are not important' dear and I apologize for making it sound like you did. I was moreso using your post to respond to Joagbaje and others. We're all not too far apart in what we believe, just a few ends that need some tying .

they can't be separated, but in "christlikeness"  faith comes before the works, after the faith, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit begins to mold and to shape, until we become just like Him  see Gal 3: 26 and Eph. 4, esp vs 13,

I'll return to this bit in a minute . . .

The Pharisees of Jesus' days had  works, they fasted twice weekly,they gave alms, they tithed, even to the smallest things, they knew scriptures that would make some us look like kg students, Paul himself said ' "OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS OF THE LAW HE WAS BLAMELESS" Philippians 3 , (i think this was one of the reasons why Christ chose him), but after he was converted ,we all know the rest

Exactly right. There are those trusting in their works to save them, I think we'll all agree on that bit.

Faith that Jesus, who is the promised messiah, and God's sacrificial "LAMB" was killed and rose again, and salvation is only by him,

This is the part I'm trying to get at.
There are obviously people who have lived and died - and were justified in the sight of God going by these 'natural' laws in their hearts, they never heard the name Jesus or of His great sacrifice . . . what "Faith" did these people have first?

5STAR:
u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way. Cornelius, Acts 10 was a man with a very good resume with God but still needed to be saved

Reading your post again brings another thought to mind . . .

Which comes first: the faith? or the works? or are they inextricably linked? Is it necessary a person be conscious of their 'faith' in order to produce godliness?

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

  These people who naturally produced good works following their conscience, what 'faith' (in our modern understanding) did they have? Or if 'works' (as contexted in Romans) is indeed 'faith' then perhaps we don't even need to ask the question at all?

5STAR:
u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way.

Jn 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

Mt 7:18 "Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jm2 Faith and Deeds
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? . . . In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder . . .  In the same way, was not even Rahab the pro.stitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  Let us think on these scriptures carefully . . . the "works" that many are so eager to dismiss as unimportant is at the very center of what the scriptures declare to be true faith. Yes we are justified by faith alone in Christ - but if this 'faith' does not have any works to show for it, then it is a dead faith. Too often we overemphasize faith and forget to insist upon works as the necessary evidence.


If Rahab - a pros.titute - could be considered righteous because of a faith displayed by her actions, how much more other 'outcasts' of non-'christian' backgrounds?


To live and faithfully practice a lifestyle as Jesus taught IS what is means to believe, accept, & love Christ! - there is no greater evidence of faith than this! Faith that is overflowing to the outside and visible for all to see. Isn't it Jesus who said "by their FRUIT you shall know them"? And this is at the very heart of what Jesus called us to. Once a person has this foundation, a solid understanding of who Jesus is and His sacrifice, the Holy Spirit is the one who will further and complete the work of conversion (along with all the doctrinal fluff) even until Christ returns as we are all still being conformed more to Christ daily.

  This is quite different from showing up on a muslim family's door and asking them to convert to another religion. Jesus Christ is the key, the way, truth and life - and yes HE transcends our limited comprehension of 'religion' - this is so key and critical. He is the one who will do the converting - to whatever He wills for each man. Our job is to introduce people to Him and then get out the way.

globexl:
@jesoul:
From the responses to your posting you can see that that there ia a dearth of intelligence in our land. Nigerians are hardly capable of deep critical thinking especially when it comes to matters of religion. We just love things that divided people. You chose the wrong audience for this topic. When it comes to religion, we are deaf and dumb.
Our educational system is configured and rigged to produce shallow and fragmented minds,  not  thinkers or philosophers . Fragmented mind equals fragamented reality. I am harrased everyday by people who have little or no inner virtues to shine forth as examples, but who spend much time trying to convince me  of  the superiority of their beliefs.

This part in bold is one the biggest issues. It would be so much more convincing if the efficacy of ones religion was evident beyond doubt in quality their lifestyle - rather than how loud they can preach or sing or clap.

davidylan:
Easy, the author has zero understanding of "discipleship".

Ah! Oga David longest time. How body now? Hope all is well with you. Can you briefly explain what 'discipleship' is? gracias.

Why Is Nato Not Bombing North Korea?

Why is the OP asking questions to which he already has the answers?

^ Uncle Tayo I don tell dem already oh . Hows family now? and my sister as well? Hope all is mercy and grace till your cup overflows. If you don't mind my asking, what industry/field do you work in?

seyibrown:
@ OP

It is possible to teach (introduce) Jesus first to a person without asking them to convert to Christianity. If they do understand who Jesus is and accept him, they WILL become followers of Christ themselves. To become followers of Christ, they will reject/let go of what they previously thought was the way!

For many who hang on to religion as a result of pride, fear of oppression or punishment from earthly authorities, it is easier to teach Jesus and his ways to them and let the Holy Spirit complete the work of conversion in them! It is the Holy spirit that will give them the boldness to convert 'openly'! Many non-Christians are trapped in their current religion because they DO NOT KNOW/BELIEVE WHO CHRIST IS because of their ignorance of who he really his. Many simply do not wish to ever become 'one of those Xtians' because they were born and bred 'non-christian'. Helping them to understand who Jesus really is/was without initially emphasising conversion is the best Evangelists can do for them!

seyibrown:
The majority of converts do not get saved on introduction! Many non-Xtians need evangelists to go back again and again before acceptance. Go back and read in between the lines of the OP article and think about the 'societal/religious circumstances' of those being preached to! Getting to understand who Jesus is will lead many to acceptance of him and conversion. [/b]As long as these people see a certain other person as their role model, it will be very difficult for them to CONVERT FIRST without knowing who Jesus is! What Jesus did and what he did not do compared to others is a good start! The end result of them understanding and accepting is conversion!

For example, how easy has it been to 'convert' sweetnecta etc? Until they understand who Jesus really his and accept him over their current role model, they will not get 'saved'. [b]There are people who do not know Jesus but naturally would do the things Jesus commands. Teaching about the lifestyle of Jesus and encouraging the forsaking of 'non-Jesus ways' is a good start !

^Just Perfect! I knew someone was going to come along and explain it so perfectly. I LOVE SEYI BROWN!

montelik:
^^ That is cos I think most pple have realized it is "politicians" that have caused so many of d problems. Its too soon to tell, but current trends indicate that d nature, attitude and style of d next set of politicians & political leaders could slowly be changing and departing from d format of d last 20 years or so.

Infact I hope that you are right beyond right.

Obama & Boehner have been going back n forth the past few days trading jabs and blame . . . we are not deceived. They have already cut the deal behind the scenes and are just putting on a show to pander to their respective bases with grand 'speeches' of toughness or what not . . . abegi, next!

[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=708760.msg8804062#msg8804062 date=1311808328]dear Jesoul, no be small thing. I could have used that money for a cool steak and mashed potato at "prince of wales". Washed I down with Spanish wine. Or better still given the money to darfur relief programmes. I gave it to "yes we can". See me now. Just looks like McCain won the election.[/quote]I dunnot kno which to comment on first - that you like mashed poraroes or that you use spanish wine to wash mashed poraroes down .

By the way, where is tayoD. I hear his state govt has broken down completely? Lol. Next time I come to America, I may try to visit him. I'll really love to meet him face to face

Siddon dia. Tayo is making big dollars while the economy is limping smart men thrive when everyone else is dry Infact Tayo alone can fund the next stimulus bill that Obama is planning to pass . . .

livin:
I believe both are insepreable as well. But unfortunatly converting to christianity these days has come to mean attending a 'this church' every sunday and doing what the church says. Nobody really cares how your life influences those around you.

Infact I salute you beyond salute. This is at the heart of the matter right here.

Biblical conversion (Examples from Jesus stories, apostles etc) vs. modern-day conversion - are they really the same thing?

[quote author=omo~fat link=topic=708760.msg8799671#msg8799671 date=1311766605]As Bernie Sanders says, Obama needs to be primaried by a serious contender. That'll atleast make him regain his leftish senses.

I don taya to dey watch the guy sef. He is only banking on the fact that the opposition is truly scary and that people will vote for the lesser of two devils. Right now, I'm not convinced that's a smart strategy[/quote]Unfortunately (or should I say fortunately?) no such person exists. There is an overall lack of inspiring politicians on both the left and right.

^ You fellas should stop dissing my Obama jor or else  

[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=708760.msg8796859#msg8796859 date=1311728306]@montelik.
You couldn't have said it any better. The frustration is unbelievable. I regret every dime or resource I invested in his campaign in 2008. Honestly, Hillary (the witch) would have done far better. Anyway you read my mind. Let me vent. Imagine this guy was the most liberal senator in his short stay there.

Obama is just not worth an extra 1 minute in the white house. The liberals should start looking for another leader.[/quote]ROFTLOL . . . chai! you donated money and time? no wonder you're here vexing all the time  Lol. You would've been better off heading to McDonalds or Popeye's chicken, I hear they have a $5 10-piece special going on  or wait, na you talk say you no dey chop chicken the other time? which kin black man no dey chop chicken self lol.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=708760.msg8796942#msg8796942 date=1311730080]Prez,

Hold on make I greet better person first. JeSoul, how are you? I know you counting, ok, now how long since his waiting for spring. Lol! I love surprises!![/quote] Ah see how I am smiling from east to west lol. I am well oh thank you and thank God. Spring is around the corner indeed . . . how is you jare?

Hey Prez, why are you sacking the President? What you are witnessing is the net balance of the three legged stool missing one of its legs. President Obama started with a tail wind lift off from media and he was kept afloat by a majority House and Senate. Since their loss of the House its been hard to navigate this jumbo load along its mapped course. He has view of the "terminal" ahead of him and wishing for a strong head wind to assist a successful landing but the wind sock is limp.

What is we gonna do now?

ROTFLOL . . .  you guys are giving me a much much needed laugh this afternoon "3 legged stool missing one leg" LOL I can totally picture it right now  

Image123:
@JeSoul
i think the two are inseparable.

I do agree they may indeed be inseperable - but perhaps not on the same level of importance in the big picture. I'd like to see more thoughts from anyone, I don't want to talk too much . . .

nuclearboy:
Biblically, the good samaritan seems to me to have been "certified" by no less than Christ, at least concerning the issue of love. Same with the Ethiopian. While I will not go so far as to say the brief stories of them justified them, its also instructive that the "justification" they received did not come with a doctrinal shift - it came on the basis of a lifestyle of "love".
Issue then is - do you need to claim a religion or set of doctrines to have the same justification of God?

. . . and when Jesus distills the entire commandments and whole duty of man into just "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself", it makes it even more impressive and one has to ask how 'important' anything else is in the grand scheme of things.

@Joagbaje & PastorAIO,
   I am enjoying your conversation very much

montelik:
D frustration is getting too much, allow him to vent.

[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=708760.msg8789271#msg8789271 date=1311643262]And tell him and all the democrats to stop invoking Ronald Reagan in every speech and statement.

silly![/quote] Who no like to call on & invoke the name of better pesin?   

pleep:
Well let's see how these deficit negotiations go. . .

You mean the dog & pony show? complete with smoke & mirrors? See them like little children pointing at each other 

blink182:
This is a new crop of NLers I've never met, nice to meet you guys

We haven't 'met' you until you've posted your picshure . . . oya comply

Pastor AIO:
We have to be careful that we do not fall victim to soundbites. What is meant when we say 'having the life and nature of God'. What does it mean to 'receive christ within'. And how is that different from 'copying christ's style'.

Gbam left right center . I think Joagbaje & Image kinda hinted at this - and I do agree the author is throwing around quite a few catch phrases without really defining what they are. I like where you took this -

The probelm with religion is that it is very easy to fall into a trap of saying very nice sounding phrases, that do nothing more than help one member of the cult to identify another on the basis of the fact that they use the same phrases.

And it works both ways. 

When it comes to the practical application of religion then we are on to another different kettle of fish entirely.

I fully believe that if you apply the teachings of Jesus to your life then you'll experience changes that go far beyond what religious cult you decide to identify with.

At present we have many people who will scream jesus' name to the high mountain and they have many formulas of sweet things to say and proclaim about him, but to simply apply one actual teaching of Jesus to their lives is an impossibility for them.

Another gbam for you. And I think at the heart of the gist that may be what the writer is saying - modern christians are evangelizing to convert people to a system - rather than a (systematic) lifestyle. Conversion to a set of doctrines and declaring them justified, minus the practical and absolutely essential application evidenced in a christ-like life. I hope that^ makes some kind of sense . . .

@all,
I purposely didn't state an opinion as I was curious to see which direction the thread would go I think at the heart of the article, we must first and clearly define what it means to 'evangelize' - in the biblical context and in the modern context and whether or not these two are the same or overlap in any way. Who wants to take a shot at it? 

Image123:
I continue to find it true that there's no way the true gospel can be preached to appease everybody. Yet the gospel MUST be preached.

From my understanding, the writer is not against preaching or 'evangelizing' per se . . . but moreso about the method, approach, attitude, and even 'goal' of modern-day evangelism.

The slant of the article that appeals to me most is where he talks about how christians today feel a sense of spiritual superiority complex (this I think is true) and tend to hold negative or even antagonistic views of people of other faiths. He contrasts this with Jesus' stories of the good samaritan (how there are godly people in every nation and race), and His constant ripping of the standard 'religious establishment' that had a habit of building walls and assigning rules and demanding people 'convert' or cross over to their way or else be damned.

Infact my take home questions were these: Are christians ¹'evangelizing' with the aim of converting people to 'christianity' (the adherence and following of doctrines and established rules)? or ²rather to 'Jesus Christ' (the man, the God, the lifestyle)?

  or are the two infact inseperable? one and the same? or do we see examples in scriptures to the contrary? What does the bible really say?

Okay thanks. I will

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/24/my-take-why-evangelicals-should-stop-evangelizing-2/?hpt=hp_c2

My Take: Why evangelicals should stop evangelizing
By Carl Medearis, Special to CNN


Let’s do an exercise. I want you to fill in the blank on what you think you know about me based on what I’m about to tell you. Here goes: Twenty years ago, I became a missionary. My wife and I left our home in Colorado Springs, Colorado to move to Beirut, Lebanon. Our job description was to plant churches and evangelize to Muslims.

Based on what I just said, Carl Medearis is a ______________ .

Depending on your background, the blank may look something like this: Carl Medearis is a,  hero of the Christian faith, a saintly super-man willing to sacrifice the comforts of home in order to share the love of Jesus Christ with those who have never heard the gospel. Or this: Carl Medearis is a,  right-wing extremist who destroys cultures, tears apart families and paves the way for neo-colonialist crusaders to invade, occupy and plunder the resources of local populations.


Quite a range, isn’t it? For one group of people, the words “evangelist” and “missionary” bring to mind pious heroes performing good deeds that are unattainable for the average Christian. For another group, those same words represent just about everything that’s wrong with the world. I understand the confusion. Based on my experiences of living and traveling around the world, I know that religion is often an identity marker that determines people’s access to jobs, resources, civil liberties and political power.


When I lived in Lebanon I saw firsthand how destructive an obsession with religious identity could be. Because of the sectarian nature of Lebanese politics, modern Lebanese history is rife with coups, invasions, civil wars and government shutdowns. When I tell my Christian friends in America that some of the fiercest militias were (and are) Christian, most are shocked. It doesn’t fit the us-versus-them mentality that evangelism fosters, in which we are always the innocent victims and they are always the aggressors. This us-versus-them thinking is odd, given that Jesus was constantly breaking down walls between Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, men and women, sinners and saints. That’s why we have the parable of the Good Samaritan.


Jews in Jesus’ day thought of the Samaritans as the violent heretics, much the same way that Christians think of Muslims today. The idea that a Samaritan could be good was scandalous to first century Jews. Jesus was the master of challenging religious prejudice and breaking down sectarian walls. Why do so many Christians want to rebuild those walls? Even the Apostle Paul insisted that it’s faith in Jesus that matters, not converting to a new religion or a new socio-religious identity. What if evangelicals today, instead of focusing on “evangelizing” and “converting” people, were to begin to think of Jesus not as starting a new religion, but as the central figure of a movement that transcends religious distinctions and identities? Jesus the uniter of humanity, not Jesus the divider. How might that change the way we look at others? This is more than just a semantic difference. When I used to think of myself as a missionary, I was obsessed with converting Muslims (or anybody for that matter) to what I thought of as “Christianity.” I had a set of doctrinal litmus tests that the potential convert had to pass before I would consider them “in” or one of “us.”


Funny thing is, Jesus never said, “Go into the world and convert people to Christianity.” What he said was, “Go and make disciples of all nations.”


Encouraging anyone and everyone to become an apprentice of Jesus, without manipulation, is a more open, dynamic and relational way of helping people who want to become more like Jesus — regardless of their religious identity. Just because I believe that evangelicals should stop evangelizing doesn’t mean that they should to stop speaking of Jesus. I speak of Jesus everywhere I go and with everyone I meet.



As founder and president of a company called International Initiatives, my work is aimed at building relationships among Christian leaders in the West and among Muslim leaders in the Middle East. It may come as a surprise to many Christians that Muslims are generally open to studying the life of Jesus as a model for leadership because they revere him as a prophet. But now that I’m no longer obsessed with converting people to Christianity, I’ve found that talking about Jesus is much easier and far more compelling. I believe that doctrine is important, but it’s not more important than following Jesus. Jesus met people where they were. Instead of trying to figure out who’s “in” and who’s “out,” why don’t we simply invite people to follow Jesus — and let Jesus run his kingdom? Inviting people to love, trust, and follow Jesus is something the world can live with. And since evangelicals like to say that it’s not about religion, but rather a personal relationship with Jesus, perhaps we should practice what we preach.

I think this is a very thought-provoking piece. Any takers? or leavers?

^ I can authoritatively confirm that 'Nuclear' is not just a 'boy' but a very fine boy, chai! even finer than pastor Chris self 

Oya, Uncle Jo, post your own now Kunle you sef, I no go mind  newmi, you too can feel free . . .

Joagbaje:
We must see Jesoul first.

there's nothing to see in a small girl like me now  lol

nuclearboy:
@Mummy i.e. JeSoul,

Paste an email and you'll get it in 2 minutes. Non disclosure agreement sha - make Pastor Jo no vex send hired mercenaries to come beat me sha.

Ahh! na my lucky day  abeg send am______make I see handsome boy lol.