₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight:
This question lies in many ways at the heart of human responsibility and the moral question. Perhaps I limit it, and should actually say – the spiritual question, or more precisely, the question of spiritual responsibility.

A first analogy may suffice to set the principle that I believe is apt: and I derive that principle from the realm of human law, that realm whence I earn my daily bread – although I should be quick and first to name and state the fact that that is not a realm always apt for spiritual law.

At common criminal law, one of the elements necessary to ground a crime is the Mens Rea – which essentially roughly equates to the evil intention, the motive, that negative purposefulness and deliberation involved in setting out to commit a crime. My university professor used to simply state it to be “the wicked mind.”

To be exact, “Mens rea” is Latin for "guilty mind"  In criminal law, it is viewed as one of the necessary elements of a crime.

The presumption of the law in this regard is that full responsibility rests and devolves upon that actual intention – that negative deliberation, the Mens Rea – as opposed to say, something that happens per accident, or without pre-meditation – such as an instinctive action which occurs in the heat of extreme provocation or perhaps self defense.

I have already stated that not all elements in the realm of human law apply exactly to the spiritual law, but the basic principle elucidated above, I believe may give some direction in this matter – for it is within the collective and intuitive sensing of all human beings that no one may blame a man, or more precisely – punish a man, for that which he is not aware of.

The above is just fantastic. And hints at the point I was trying to make to LagosShia - certain things we do not need a religious text to tell us, the inherent nature of God in all of us speaks this to our hearts clearly. 

Aware. Awareness.

Consciousness.

Is a child aware. Is a mad man aware. Is an unconscious man aware.

Morally aware, that is.

I have two separate thoughts regarding these questions, and essentially these are (x) that on some level each case will determine itself according to its peculiarity and (y) Karma will determine it all.

I think I need to elucidate my thoughts on these a little.

I’ll start with (x) – namely that each case will sing its own song. At the outset it might appear that it is ludicrous that a child, a mad person, or an unconscious person will bear any liability for that which he does. But I do not see this as a nuanced view.

Children
There are certainly children that act in full awareness of the evil that they do – none of us can claim that as children we were not aware at very early ages that this or that action was wrong or bad. A child however, remains a growing being with its consciousness not fully developed. Thus even where a child is aware of the wrong that it does, it may not consciously and fully appreciate its import. Thus I will be inclined to think that the deeds of children will be weighed in terms of Karma in relation to their individual level of maturity, consciousness and awareness of that which they do – and this is something that varies from person to person.

A better articulated version of the below . . .

JeSoul:
Also we know children do have a sense of wrong and right . . . even though it is a basic and under-developed one, they still have it. Which is why a child will hide or run when be breaks a plate or breaks the neighbors window - he/she knows they did something wrong.

The Insane
Still on the first view – that is (x) which I mentioned above – and now in relation to the insane. The question again remains – awareness – that is – consciousness of the deeds that they do. Can we in all sincerity state that ALL insane people have no knowledge or awareness or consciousness of that which they do? I do not think that that is a nuanced view. There are a great many types and degrees of psychological infirmity and it will be a sweeping and hasty generalization, I think, to state that all such people are not aware of their deeds or the import and moral implications of their deeds. The truth will rather lie in between – there will be those who on account of their state of mind have little or no awareness of what they do, and there will be those who in spite of their state of mind, have EVERY consciousness of what they do, along with the moral implications of such actions. Along the spectrum of different cases, as I stated with the varying level of consciousness of children, the varying levels of moral awareness of these people will also serve to judge them precisely.

The unconscious

At first sight this one may seem like a ridiculous case. How can an unconscious man do wrong? How can an unconscious man even do ANYTHING? How can he be aware of what he is doing?

Again, I believe that the truth lies in greater nuance. How many times are we perfectly asleep and within a dream and yet in that dream about to take some action or the other – and even then in the dream state – we feel a pang of conscience about that deed. . . what does this mean, what does this tell us?

It tells us that there is a sub-conscious, and that moral unction also exists at the level of the subconscious. Indeed, if anything, the psychological postulations of Sigmund Freud urge us to think more carefully about the subconscious mind. It is not nothing. It exists. And if I may pursue Freudian thinking a little, I will state further that it is actually the Unclad mind. That mind which speaks and acts itself devoid of the societal impression of the Ego or Super Ego  - that mind which Freud called the Id.

It is the Id, I believe, that each man will be judged on first.

For it is the Unclad man.

Now having said all this, I also said that (y) – Karma will have its way. One could write and quote generations of whole books on this matter, But I will leave it this simple: God’s grace will fall on people. People who have a positive karma, even in sleep, childhood or mental insanity will avoid certain evils which their karma does not permit, and people who have a negative Karma will certainly fall into such evils even when conscious, adult, or mentally sound.

The ONE God, bless, and help us all.

Infact I can find no issue whatsoever with any of the above. You have addressed the extremes & middle ground, knowing nothing is ever truly black or white, and God alone recognizes these 'nuanced' shades - and the righteous Jugde will give grace & punishment justly.

Welcome Back DS! Great post to make ur comeback.

LagosShia:
you're welcome Madam!

[b]my thoughts and beliefs are guided by what Islam teaches me.[/b]I have tried to the best of my ability to explain matters in simple terms.I hope that helps everyone.

"Allah knows best" is the answer Islam teaches us on matters that is not within our control but the power of God.so therefore,we cannot predict God especially when it comes to His judgement.we believe in Him and therefore accept He is Just and Merciful.we are also humbled by His greatness and power and therefore do not predict His judgement.otherwise,it would be arrogant of us and arrogance does impart divine wrath.that is the reason why no matter how devout or righteous a Muslim might be,he can never tell others that he will make it to paradise because that amounts to claiming divine perfection and will.for example,even Jesus and Muhammad (as) refused to predict when the Hour of Judgement would be.instead they told us that the decision/will is in God's hand.that is the example of humility and sincerity and subservience to God we Muslims must follow to attain the pleasure of Almighty God.not like some people who are so arrogant and claim to know more than the great teachers of religion in the history of mankind.

Point taken. And this is true for all of us by the way, we are guided by one thing or another. For some it is religion, some experience, some something else.

Your point that we should not insert ourselves in a position of judgement over others is seconded and that isn't what I was trying to ask per se. Sometimes when we're asked difficult questions we retreat behind our religion, when there may be an obvious but difficult answer. God has given us wisdom and intellect and His spirit - and I believe He intends for us to use it. Specific examples of such cases evade me now but just as a general point. Hope that makes sense?

DeepSight  I see you. And it is good to see you .

Some good stuff in your post . . . lemme deal with one small matter first . . .

---

omo alaro:
[s]JeSoul (f)« #11 on: Today at 03:36:35 PM »


“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.
Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are ‘born again’ into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of ‘Original Sin’ forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.
So the questions arise, is humanity guilty for the sin which Adam committed by eating from the tree he was forbidden? Must we all repent from that great sin? In what way is one to repent? And if so, what is the fate of those who did not?
Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sins will only be faced by those who commit them. Sin is not a hereditary trait or ‘stain’ passed to one’s progeny one generation to another. All people will be accountable to what only they themselves did in this life. Therefore, even though the Quran mentions the sin of Adam and how he was banished from the Garden, it places no responsibility on the shoulders of his progeny. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon this belief. Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, as well.
The Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful
As for the sin of Adam, the Quran tells us that he repented for his sin. God revealed to him words with which to repent, which he then accepted from him.
“Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and he accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:37)
Through God’s acceptance of Adam’s repentance, Adam was cleansed of the sin which he committed. God in the Quran repeatedly ascribes to Himself attribute of mercy and forgiveness. He also mentions that from His Names are The Oft-Forgiving, The Most Merciful, the Accepter of Repentance, and others, all of which emphasize the All-Encompassing Mercy of God. Even to those who have sinned much and may lose hope in the forgiveness of God, He says:
“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)
If a person sins, all they need to do is truly repent from their heart, and they will find God Ever Merciful. Adam did sin, and the sin did stain his heart, but it was removed through his repentance. The Prophet Muhammad said:
“Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, and stops from his sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until covers his heart…” (Ibn Maajah)
Even if we were to say that Adam did not repent, that stain is not passed on to further generations. Therefore, we see that God does not need any physical sacrifice in order to forgive sins, and that no sin is too great for His Mercy; to say so would be to ascribe deficiency to His Excellence and Perfection. The Prophet Muhammad relates to us that God said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God says in the Quran in regards to sacrifice, that it is the intention of the person when offering the sacrifice which is of importance, and not the actual sacrifice itself.
“It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God, but it is piety from you that reaches Him, ” (Quran 22:37)
If we were to implement this verse in regards to the original sin and God incarnate sacrificing himself in order to forgive all of humanity, we see that even without seeking repentance for Adam’s sin, God forgave human beings due to His Own Sacrifice. Could He not have forgiven them without such a sacrifice?
It is also mentioned in the bible:
[b]“To what purpose (is) the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? Saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; (it is) iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear (them). And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”[/b]


The Divine Will of the Perfect God

So Adam sought forgiveness for His sin, and God accepted it from Him. Another crucial point which must be mentioned is that God created humans with a free will, and He knew that humanity would sin. For this reason, no human is expected to be perfect, but rather, God knows that they will sin. What is expected from humans is that they repent from their sin. The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:
“All children of Adam repetitively make mistakes, but the best of those who make mistakes are those who repent.” (Ibn Maajah)
The Prophet also said:
“By Him in Whose Hand is My soul (i.e. God), if you did not commit sins, God would do away with you and come with a race which committed sins. They would seek forgiveness from God and He would forgive them. (Saheeh Muslim #4936)
So here we see that it was in the Great and Wise plan of God that Adam sin and that God forgive him for that sin, and to say that Adam went against the Universal Will of God by sinning is a blasphemy against the All Encompassing Knowledge, Power, and Will of God. Christianity goes so far as to say that God even repented from the creation of humans! May God be free from all defects people attribute to Him. In Genesis 6:6, it says to quote:
“And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
To agree to this would mean that Adam did something which was out of the Will, Power, and Knowledge of God, and that God regretted His creation of humans. God is All-Perfect and so are His deeds, and there is no defect or shortcoming in them; He does nothing except with total and complete perfection and wisdom. Islam in no way agrees to this belief and, as we mentioned, all of what occurred in the story of Adam was within the perfect plan of God. The Prophet said:
“Indeed God put everything into its proper measure fifty thousand years before the creation of the heavens and the earths.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God mentions in the Quran what took place between the angels when He announced the creation of humans, and from this we see that it was known to God and part of His Great and Divine Plan that humans would sin. God says:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.’ They said: ‘Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.’ He (God) said: ‘Indeed I know that which you do not know.’” (Quran 2:30)
It is also clear from these verses that God did not create humans as immortal, and that death was prescribed for them from the beginning of their creation. As for the consequences of the sin of Adam, which was his extradition from the Garden, this was felt by those to come after him and this is only natural. If one was to become drunk and have a car accident, and some of the passengers die, the sin of driver effects the passengers in their death, but that does not mean that the passengers are to be held to account for the sin of the driver.
The Innocent
Another question which must be dealt with is the fate of those who came before the claim that God became incarnate and sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, as well as the fate of those who were not baptized, as baptism is the rite which all Christians must perform in order to be cleansed of Original Sin. In Christian belief, all humans previous to the incarnation of God, including the Prophets and infants usually regarded as sinless, are not free from the Original Sin of Adam, and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, As Augustine said: “Do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” Only until recently, non-baptized infants were not buried in consecrated ground because they were believed to have died in original sin.
Also, we know that the verse in the Apostles’ Creed, “… and (Jesus) descended into Hell”, is said to mean that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous souls who were there due to the sin of Adam. This leads us to believe that all those before the coming of Jesus are in Hell, even if they were from the righteous. Paul mentioned this himself in Galatians:
“… a man is not justified by the works of the law , for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
Here it is clear that adherence to the commandments of God is not enough for salvation, even for those before Jesus. This also holds true to all those who have not received the message of Christianity. We must ask; why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin? Did they lie when they said that it was enough to Worship One God and obey His commandments to achieve Paradise? Why did not God come and free humanity from sin at the time of Adam so that the righteous and others would not be in Hell due to his sin? Why are infants, humanity before Jesus, and others who have not heard about Christianity, held accountable for a sin they never committed, nor have knowledge about how to remit themselves from it? The truth of the matter is that the notion of “Original Sin”, as many others, was one introduced by Paul and later expounded on by Christian scholars and councils.
“The Old Testament says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to the entire human race… the main scriptural affirmation of the doctrine is found in the writings of St. Paul…”
This concept though, was expounded by Augustine of Hippo, one of the most prominent Christian scholars in History. The basis of this concept is that “the deliberate sin of the first man (Adam) is the cause of original sin.” The Second Council of Orange (529 C.E.) declared, “One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul.”
The concept of original sin is one which has no basis in previous scriptures regarded as divine by Christianity. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon them. Rather, salvation from Hell was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments which was preached by all prophets, including the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, may God praise them.

Summary
In Islam, the key to salvation is the belief in and worship of the One True, Unique and Perfect God and obedience to His commandments, the same message brought by all Prophets. Islam preaches that a person must work righteousness and avoid sin to attain Paradise, and that if one sins, that they seek repentance for it from their heart. Through this and the Mercy and Grace of God, they will enter Paradise. Islam does not deem that all those before the advent of Muhammad are doomed to Hell, but rather that each nation was sent a prophet by the same One God, and it was upon them to follow His commandments. Those who have not heard of the message are not held liable to follow Islam, and God will deal with them with His Perfect Justice on the Day of Judgment. Infants and children of both Muslims and disbelievers alike are in enjoyment in Paradise upon death. Due to the infinite Justice of God:
“No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish (people) until We have sent (to them) a Messenger (to give warning).” (Quran 17:15)
[/s]

Alas, omo alaro, I must withdraw my last post to you, seeing you neglected to mention the above post was not yours but rather copypasted from this site . . . http://www.chatislamonline.org/chat/Document.aspx?id=68&lang=2  or maybe one of the other 10 I also found? Perhaps you simply forgot to include the link.

 You must forgive me, but I prefer to talk to people, rather than at articles .

[quote author=Chi-Dalu link=topic=753706.msg9096540#msg9096540 date=1315379427]Sorry about your rejection @Elewedu. The fact that a school requires a min GRE & TOEFL score which you clearly surpassed is not enough guarantee for admission. Several other factors contribute to admission decision and that is why its advisable to apply to more than one school so as to increase your chances. They probably had more students (with even better profile than yours) apply for thesame semester and as such they can only pick the best of the best. Also, things like SOP, previous research experience, recommendation from your professors, e.t.c. also adds up.
Fall 2012 is still far and i know most schools are still accepting applications for it. Try out Texas Tech univ, Univ of West Virginia, Univ of Mississpi, Oklahoma State Univ, University of Oklahoma, University of Tulsa (don't know if these schools offer your course but check them out, a lot of them are also liberal with funding). Also, check out this website www.edulix.com its an Indian forum where people come to share information regarding gradutae studies in the US

I wish you all the best

Cheers![/quote]This is most likely what happened.
Elewedu, if possible, try to email the admissions dept/director/representative and see if you can get a solid reason as to why you were rejected. That way you can correct/address it as you're applying to other schools so you don't end up being denied again. I wish you the best.

omo alaro:
JeSoul (f)« #11 on: Today at 03:36:35 PM »


“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.
Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are ‘born again’ into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of ‘Original Sin’ forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.
So the questions arise, is humanity guilty for the sin which Adam committed by eating from the tree he was forbidden? Must we all repent from that great sin? In what way is one to repent? And if so, what is the fate of those who did not?
Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sins will only be faced by those who commit them. Sin is not a hereditary trait or ‘stain’ passed to one’s progeny one generation to another. All people will be accountable to what only they themselves did in this life. Therefore, even though the Quran mentions the sin of Adam and how he was banished from the Garden, it places no responsibility on the shoulders of his progeny. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon this belief. Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, as well.
The Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful
As for the sin of Adam, the Quran tells us that he repented for his sin. God revealed to him words with which to repent, which he then accepted from him.
“Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and he accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:37)
Through God’s acceptance of Adam’s repentance, Adam was cleansed of the sin which he committed. God in the Quran repeatedly ascribes to Himself attribute of mercy and forgiveness. He also mentions that from His Names are The Oft-Forgiving, The Most Merciful, the Accepter of Repentance, and others, all of which emphasize the All-Encompassing Mercy of God. Even to those who have sinned much and may lose hope in the forgiveness of God, He says:
“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)
If a person sins, all they need to do is truly repent from their heart, and they will find God Ever Merciful. Adam did sin, and the sin did stain his heart, but it was removed through his repentance. The Prophet Muhammad said:
“Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, and stops from his sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until covers his heart…” (Ibn Maajah)
Even if we were to say that Adam did not repent, that stain is not passed on to further generations. Therefore, we see that God does not need any physical sacrifice in order to forgive sins, and that no sin is too great for His Mercy; to say so would be to ascribe deficiency to His Excellence and Perfection. The Prophet Muhammad relates to us that God said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God says in the Quran in regards to sacrifice, that it is the intention of the person when offering the sacrifice which is of importance, and not the actual sacrifice itself.
“It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God, but it is piety from you that reaches Him, ” (Quran 22:37)
If we were to implement this verse in regards to the original sin and God incarnate sacrificing himself in order to forgive all of humanity, we see that even without seeking repentance for Adam’s sin, God forgave human beings due to His Own Sacrifice. Could He not have forgiven them without such a sacrifice?
It is also mentioned in the bible:
[b]“To what purpose (is) the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? Saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; (it is) iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear (them). And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”[/b]


The Divine Will of the Perfect God

So Adam sought forgiveness for His sin, and God accepted it from Him. Another crucial point which must be mentioned is that God created humans with a free will, and He knew that humanity would sin. For this reason, no human is expected to be perfect, but rather, God knows that they will sin. What is expected from humans is that they repent from their sin. The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:
“All children of Adam repetitively make mistakes, but the best of those who make mistakes are those who repent.” (Ibn Maajah)
The Prophet also said:
“By Him in Whose Hand is My soul (i.e. God), if you did not commit sins, God would do away with you and come with a race which committed sins. They would seek forgiveness from God and He would forgive them. (Saheeh Muslim #4936)
So here we see that it was in the Great and Wise plan of God that Adam sin and that God forgive him for that sin, and to say that Adam went against the Universal Will of God by sinning is a blasphemy against the All Encompassing Knowledge, Power, and Will of God. Christianity goes so far as to say that God even repented from the creation of humans! May God be free from all defects people attribute to Him. In Genesis 6:6, it says to quote:
“And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
To agree to this would mean that Adam did something which was out of the Will, Power, and Knowledge of God, and that God regretted His creation of humans. God is All-Perfect and so are His deeds, and there is no defect or shortcoming in them; He does nothing except with total and complete perfection and wisdom. Islam in no way agrees to this belief and, as we mentioned, all of what occurred in the story of Adam was within the perfect plan of God. The Prophet said:
“Indeed God put everything into its proper measure fifty thousand years before the creation of the heavens and the earths.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God mentions in the Quran what took place between the angels when He announced the creation of humans, and from this we see that it was known to God and part of His Great and Divine Plan that humans would sin. God says:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.’ They said: ‘Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.’ He (God) said: ‘Indeed I know that which you do not know.’” (Quran 2:30)
It is also clear from these verses that God did not create humans as immortal, and that death was prescribed for them from the beginning of their creation. As for the consequences of the sin of Adam, which was his extradition from the Garden, this was felt by those to come after him and this is only natural. If one was to become drunk and have a car accident, and some of the passengers die, the sin of driver effects the passengers in their death, but that does not mean that the passengers are to be held to account for the sin of the driver.
The Innocent
Another question which must be dealt with is the fate of those who came before the claim that God became incarnate and sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, as well as the fate of those who were not baptized, as baptism is the rite which all Christians must perform in order to be cleansed of Original Sin. In Christian belief, all humans previous to the incarnation of God, including the Prophets and infants usually regarded as sinless, are not free from the Original Sin of Adam, and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, As Augustine said: “Do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” Only until recently, non-baptized infants were not buried in consecrated ground because they were believed to have died in original sin.
Also, we know that the verse in the Apostles’ Creed, “… and (Jesus) descended into Hell”, is said to mean that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous souls who were there due to the sin of Adam. This leads us to believe that all those before the coming of Jesus are in Hell, even if they were from the righteous. Paul mentioned this himself in Galatians:
“… a man is not justified by the works of the law , for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
Here it is clear that adherence to the commandments of God is not enough for salvation, even for those before Jesus. This also holds true to all those who have not received the message of Christianity. We must ask; why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin? Did they lie when they said that it was enough to Worship One God and obey His commandments to achieve Paradise? Why did not God come and free humanity from sin at the time of Adam so that the righteous and others would not be in Hell due to his sin? Why are infants, humanity before Jesus, and others who have not heard about Christianity, held accountable for a sin they never committed, nor have knowledge about how to remit themselves from it? The truth of the matter is that the notion of “Original Sin”, as many others, was one introduced by Paul and later expounded on by Christian scholars and councils.
“The Old Testament says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to the entire human race… the main scriptural affirmation of the doctrine is found in the writings of St. Paul…”
This concept though, was expounded by Augustine of Hippo, one of the most prominent Christian scholars in History. The basis of this concept is that “the deliberate sin of the first man (Adam) is the cause of original sin.” The Second Council of Orange (529 C.E.) declared, “One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul.”
The concept of original sin is one which has no basis in previous scriptures regarded as divine by Christianity. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon them. Rather, salvation from Hell was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments which was preached by all prophets, including the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, may God praise them.

Summary
In Islam, the key to salvation is the belief in and worship of the One True, Unique and Perfect God and obedience to His commandments, the same message brought by all Prophets. Islam preaches that a person must work righteousness and avoid sin to attain Paradise, and that if one sins, that they seek repentance for it from their heart. Through this and the Mercy and Grace of God, they will enter Paradise. Islam does not deem that all those before the advent of Muhammad are doomed to Hell, but rather that each nation was sent a prophet by the same One God, and it was upon them to follow His commandments. Those who have not heard of the message are not held liable to follow Islam, and God will deal with them with His Perfect Justice on the Day of Judgment. Infants and children of both Muslims and disbelievers alike are in enjoyment in Paradise upon death. Due to the infinite Justice of God:
“No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish (people) until We have sent (to them) a Messenger (to give warning).” (Quran 17:15)

Chei! Omo alaro you try oh! lol. Thank you for the very detailed response. I'm short on time now to properly reply but I hope to do so soon. Just one quick observation.

I appreciate the way you laid out the persuations of Islam on the subject, I am learning some good stuff. I do however see some shortcomings with the position you attributed to the christian faith ie, 'original sin' being insinuated as a rogue Pauline doctrine, problems itself with what is associated with and the implications of 'original sin', a lack of acknowledgement of especially OT examples who were 'righteous' in the sight of God without etc etc. Maybe someone else will beat me to it & reply before I'm able to.

Thanks!

---

LagosShia:
@JeSoul
i think you are refering to the below quoted as your "last post" you want me to treat.i actually did not bother to reply anything on that part because based on what i said and also what you've said, i can simply say "Allah knows best" and you will agree with me.these are things we cannot judge because we do not have the right to do that.however this situation about children being involved in crime should not be misunderstood with "original sin".they are different situations and cases.there is no justification in Islam to believe that a child that is born today has a sinful nature or is guilty of sin because of the sin Adam committed,which he had no knowledge of.a child is not even guilty of his own biological father's sin,talkess of accusing him of Adam's sin.

so even if i am to agree with you for instance that children can be guilty of sin which they commit,and as you agreed with me the cases must be examined one by one and the final judgement is with God,it still does not cover "original sin"."original sin" is totally different.they are different because "original sin" holds man responsible from birth for a sin he did not commit which is injustice.

in islam,children are said to be innocent because they do not have the ability to properly reason or draw judgement before acting.this is also one of the reasons present in the SHIA Islamic school of thought for totally absolving Adam of sin and still maintaining his infallibility (this is explained more in the thread on "original sin" i earlier presented to you).Adam when he ate from the tree was not exposed to certain environmental conditions and situations.so his innocence is still maintained (as his intention was not on the purpose to revolt against God) and God actually did not punish him but rather blessed him with offsprings and used that incident to teach him right from wrong and who his main enemy is (i will present some very enlightening youtube lectures on Adam and his infallibility from the SHIA Islamic view in my next post).on this note,i must say there are times an adult may do something wrong that he could be punished for it because his action is deemed sinful and punishment come after sin,but if a child does the same thing,he would not be punished because he is deemed not to have committed an act of sin but a mistake out of ignorance or misjudgement due to lack of knowledge,without purpose to be or do evil/sin which therefore does not call for punishment!!!

assuming a child does commit an act which he was able to properly reason and make judgement of its sinfulness,then judgement rest with God and also it depends on the evidence available in the court of law.ofcourse,such a situation is very rare and should not be used to make general conclusions.caution should be taken.

Fair enough sir. I will say though that I think that is also a bit of a cop out . . . I would like to know what YOU, LAGOSSHIA thinks . . . without having to refer back to a religious text or resign with the phrase that 'Allah knows best". But, fair enough thanks.

LagosShia:
please review the below thread as we muslims do not believe in anything called "original sin" or anything that attribute us humans a sinful nature or guilt at birth based on what we did not commit:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-551599.0.html

Thanks for the link. I just looked at it & it answers my question.

If you have the time please address my last post. Gracias.

LagosShia:
i dont think it is wise to generalize on such rare cases.i may give you for example the case of child soldeirs in sierra leone and the congo and may be other countries too.those children were forced to commit horrible crimes.therefore the blame and guilt lie on those responsible for making those children commit those crimes.

i think it is best to take them case by case.

even outside islam in a place like america,children below 18 are not tried in the same courts as adults.there are special courts.Islam have made it easier by putting the age at puberty when a child is exposed to the use of his Cores or starts having wet dreams and the likes.

also,it all depends on how God will judge each and every human be him a child or adult as at death.islamically in our practical world under our own reach and control,when we talk about the age of puberty when a child become a "baligh",before that children are not obliged to pray 5 times a day or fast.if they do not observe the duties of religion,it is not sin.there are verses in the Quran about children and puberty as "Sweetnecta" also pointed out.

I totally agree that it all matters on a case by case basis. I am not sure however that in instances of child soldiers, 100% of the blame falls on the adults who placed the guns in their hands. There are stories where some children were killed for refusing to kill others, they knew it was wrong and hence refused to do it and were killed for it . . . what do you say about that? Also we know children do have a sense of wrong and right . . . even though it is a basic and under-developed one, they still have it. Which is why a child will hide or run when be breaks a plate or breaks the neighbors window - he/she knows they did something wrong.

And excellent point about the justice system trying children under a different level - that is true and well noted. There have also been many cases where the prosecutor has petitioned the court to try teenagers as adults - due to the severity of the crime. Because there are some crimes you look at and see that though a 'child' (according to the societal definition) committed it, and you can no longer just call them a 'child'. A true child should not be able to commit such a crime.

you're welcome.i saw it.

thanks.

---

omo alaro:
Sweetnecta « #1 on: Today at 02:40:00 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gbam, This is exactly the well known position of Islam, no more no less. This is why muslims disagree with the concept of original sin. 


Jesoul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pen is Lifted From Three
The Messenger of Allah (صلي الله عليه وسلم) said: “The Pen is lifted from three (i.e., their deeds are not recorded):

a child until he reaches puberty;
an insane man until he comes to his senses;
one who is asleep until he wakes up.”
[Recorded in Abu Dawud #4403, and Ibn Majah #2041]

I guess this is at the heart of my query . . . what is Islam's position or should I say counter-argument to the concept of 'original sin'?

Sweetnecta:
@JeSoul; the first about young until puberty is in Nisaa where Allah talks about maturing to become a spouse, because that is when responsibility begins. That responsibility includes making daily Salah, fasting in ramadhan, etc.

all of them are expressed in the ahadith.

for sure ahadith expalins a verse or verses of the Quran

Thanks for the answer. So the responsibility begins at puberty? what about rare cases where children (7, 8, 9 yrs old) commit crimes or do things that are terribly bad? what would you say is Islams approach to dealing with such cases?

LagosShia:
"There is not upon the blind any guilt or upon the lame any guilt or upon the ill any guilt [for lacking behind]. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger - He will admit him to gardens beneath which rivers flow; but whoever turns away - He will punish him with a painful punishment".(Holy Quran 48:17)

the above is further explained in hadiths,as "Sweetnecta" rightly pointed three groups of people that are totally not held accountable for their deeds.

however,regarding the madman,his deeds that he committed before he went mad,he may be held accountable for them depending on his peculiar situation which God will judge.but for certain the deeds of the mad,the child and the unconscious when they are in those particular states are not accounted for.

Thanks also and see my question to Sweetnecta  . . .

Sweetnecta:
Islam shows Mercy by this saying;

the pen is lifted for three;

1] a child until he/she reaches puberty.

2] a person who is unconscious until he/she regains consciousness.

3] a mad person until he/she is mentally sound.

Interesting. Are there any verses that these are based on? or is it more of a general accepted teaching without supporting verses? Thanks.

Frosbel & Lagosshia . . . behave yourselves and watch your language. This is a 'family' section. I'm tried of seeing you two throwing mud all over the place. Make your points without going to the gutter, I expect better from both of you . . .

Can we nominate?

Labalaba. She's all about food and has made some nice contributions to this otherwise quiet section https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?action=profile;u=219606

InesQor:
@JeSoul:

I can go through some posts this year in which I complained that I tried to reach you via phone AND Sms to no avail (I have BOTH your lines). My SMS "never gets delivered" and you dont pick up your calls. As for "hurrying to respond", the evidence is in my final post on the Questions for Mods thread where I finally gave up. But I don't think checking any of that is necessary. It's all history. Thanks I appreciate.

Yeah now that you mention it you did say so on here . . . it just never clicked I guess, plus all this 'code, _subset talk' didn't help drive the point home. You're right about calls - 95% of the time I don't answer during the day cos I'm at work or practice or playing - which is why I always say email dude, email! then I schedule a time to give you a proper realtime holla. You'd be amazed at how quick I respond thru that compared to other methods of communication.

But I apologize I couldn't be there to help you in any way I could, which is why we never depend on human beings cos they will fail us. I trust you've been able to find your way just fine .

Aight, gats to be stepping. If the bank closes before I get there ehn Inesqor . . . na you . . . and if you shiver & sneeze within the next hour it was because I called your name 3 times. . .

_{I was about to pick my keys and head out the door before sonething say make I see wassup before I check out till next tuesday . . .}

InesQor:
@JeSoul:

Do you remember this

Everything I said above here is true. The red and bold aspect is MY STORY.

There is nothing about "being the devil" or "talking as someone else" or anything of that nonesuch as Jesoul and nuclearboy said.  

At that time of my life; end of last year till some weeks ago, everything I posted as Dulcet was MY reality. Jesoul, when I was troubled I TRIED to talk to you (as Inesqor since that was who you knew and not Dulcet), but you ignored my message: my SMS, my calls, my request for an instant messenger conversation. When you replied, you simply asked me to mail you again. I needed to talk in real-time and not email so I gave up on that. I tried to talk to Viaro too, no responses (I just found out he was ill). I even called nuclearboy, no show. Eyzhvntsn knows I tried to call him cos I told her when I gave up. The only person I reached out to and replied me was Pastor AIO, he was really very helpful and I didnt even tell him until a couple of weeks ago that I am Dulcet. I think only Vescucci knew that I am D7, cos he is familiar with me on another network.

If you feel like having the unnecessary exercise, check out my Inesqor posts at that time. I either didnt make posts at all, or was just neutral. I was going to drop that Inesqor [/b]ID cos as far as I could see at the time, I needed a fresh slate. In retrospect I think I was concerned that my own soul enquiry may influence other people adversely, so I decided to just start afresh. Given the chance again, I would not even have bothered. I would have just gone ahead and made my posts amongst all the "Hey InesQor has backslidden" and all sorts of mumbo jumbo.

My journey is complete now, and I'm back to posting with my original handle. I believe I have more understanding now of my own Christian faith, Most of the things I posted as Dulcet stay in my purview, but even many more are refined with respect to Christianity and I believe they have brought me closer to God.

I personally don't care whether anyone is offended or not, honestly; although I apologize if it will make them feel better.

My own transformation in religious thoughts and posts from [b]mavenbox [/b]to [b]Inesqor [/b]to [b]dulcet7 [/b]and right back to [b]Inesqor now is as remarkable as the changes in my spiritual journey have been. I have nothing to hide, and I am not ashamed. If anything, my spiritual journey has only made me closer to God because I critically examined every thing that I would usually have taken for granted and now I know nothing can shake that. There is evidence for me beyond anything I see an atheist type on these boards.

Of course there is one last question. What if I never told? I am 100% certain that Vescucci and Pastor AIO would never have mentioned it. I really don't know what the big deal is. Oh, of course, I broke a forum rule. Yeah I know, and I'm guilty of that, and not for the first time. Not more guilty than those who insult others while posting. What else?

Arrivederci.

Nesqor . . . glad you explained, and my conclusion is you are one unique & complicated guy and go about your business in a unique and complicated way. I get your explanation, I still don't see the need to have posted as 'someone else' (okay not 'someone else' but you get my point). . . check my posts from when I started here in 07, so much of my views have changed or evolved, sometimes dramatically even - just like many of us around here. But alas, if you felt posting as a fresh ID and as a means of 'discovering yourself' without the 'baggage' from the former then it is certainly your way and I got no beef with that. And you know me, you're my friend so I gotta give it you like I see it, tough love baby

Beyond that, I'm quite suprised you said you tried to contact me to no avail . . . hmmm . . . are you sure it was me? (you recall I have seperate #'s that do seperate things right?) I have had a couple nlders ask to speak privately with me and I did so with urgency, how much more someone I consider a friend? I done told you before dude EMAIL ME! but you no gree' lol. It is the quickest and surest way to reach me. If I had known it was important don't you think I would've replied in earnest? or have you so little faith in me?

 Anyways sha, you've washed enough laundry today Nuclearboy will take you out for some drinks later (wait . . . abi you still no dey drink?)

The place doesn't exist now, so why are you people in here sweating yourselves & throwing punches into the thin air?

MyJoe:
^^^ While I agree with Evil Brain that Joagbaje has too high opinion of pastors, I agree with him on the point about people having influences exercised over them, even in marriage. In fact, I would ask anyone, especially the woman, going into a marriage to find out who the proposed spouse's influences are.

"You must have been blessed with great friends and good advice all these years."
"No, I'm self-made."

"Who is your role model?"
"Jesus Christ!"

Ok.

I would tell a girl planning to go into marriage that when her husband starts misbehaving there should be someone she can pick up the phone and call, someone the man is certain to at least listen to. Of course, that person may just be his pastor. It might be someone else. Personally one of the human beings I respect most and will pick up his call at 2am and listen to him talk till dawn is an elderly friend who is, by pure coincidence, a pastor. Not my pastor, since I am no churchgoer, but a pastor. I think Joagbaje is right about someone playing this role in a man's life. Where he gets is wrong is the idea that it must be your pastor.

This is very true. We all need older, more experienced people that we look up to & that we can call up and talk with and get advice from - this point is absolutely true - but joagbaje not only seems to think it should be the pastor, but that the final decision also belongs to the pastor.

Anyways . . . Myjoe, how body now?

Joagbaje:
You can go ahead and say the rude things , after all worst things have been said by the people you hold in high esteem here. I wonder what kind of God they believe in.

Don't worry, I'm sure you're used to it but nobody will abuse you here.

But I will still like to make my point if you care . The pastor has the final say because he stands in an office and power is vested on him by the virtue of that office. If two Christians have conflicts either in the home or business the church has a judicial  structure . And the word of God is presented to the parties. The person who is wrong according to scriptures ought to take it that way. But if he would not listen to the pastor or the church authority , then he can be treated as an enemy . That's what the bible teaches. The authority of the pastor is according to the Word of God. So long as he takes stand With Gods Word .

And the pastor is infallible abi? Okay oh. I don talk my own finish already. I have nothing more to add:

JeSoul:
On second, much cooler take, Joagbaje does make some good points about counselling and the importance of having a strong foundation before heading into the marriage - this can make all the difference in the world. I'm actually pro marriage classes that are required in churches before a couple can wed there. This is practical and beneficial to all. In cases of abuse, seperation for a season may indeed be the solution for some as Joe said & as I mentioned earlier - but this is not one approach that fits all - and it is certainly not one the pastor must 'sanction' first before they can go ahead.

Where he places absolute power in the hands of pastors over the decisions between a husband & wife is in my opinion a terribly distorted application of scripture. There is no question that scripture recognizes pastors, deacons and older elders within the church as spiritual authorities over the flock charged with guiding and leading the sheep in the ways of Christ and the bible, and the flock looks to them, listens to them and respects them and honors them

 . . . however, it does not bestow upon them the magnitude and scope of power that oga Jogbaje is suggesting - in my humble opinion.

nuclearboy:
^ LOL - nope, not just for now but FOREVER except I get banned and need a new handle.

I don't have the capability to hide in any form plus my signature tells I have a fixation that makes me totally inflexible about truth- those who come to probity must come with clean hands. I dey vex too much so can't afford to leave my flanks exposed. My impatience also does worsen matters - I just cannot!

So don't worry - you have a harmless single ID'ed boy here!

Inesqor may be the devil after all to have deceived us all so easily but I'm still on your side!

Hehe . . . I dunno about the 'harmless' part  CEC folks would disagree with that bit but I appreciate the singleD - what you see is what you get!

On second, much cooler take, Joagbaje does make some good points about counselling and the importance of having a strong foundation before heading into the marriage - this can make all the difference in the world. I'm actually pro marriage classes that are required in churches before a couple can wed there. This is practical and beneficial to all. In cases of abuse, seperation for a season may indeed be the solution for some as Joe said & as I mentioned earlier - but this is not one approach that fits all - and it is certainly not one the pastor must 'sanction' first before they can go ahead.

Where he places absolute power in the hands of pastors over the decisions between a husband & wife is in my opinion a terribly distorted application of scripture. There is no question that scripture recognizes pastors, deacons and older elders within the church as spiritual authorities over the flock charged with guiding and leading the sheep in the ways of Christ and the bible, and the flock looks to them, listens to them and respects them and honors them

  . . . however, it does not bestow upon them the magnitude and scope of power that oga Jogbaje is suggesting - in my humble opinion.

Enigma:
^^^* It is a disgrace; basically the "pastors" of this ilk want to control the lives of their victims and in the process elevating themselves as having some unique powers and authority.

Honestly. How can someone say with a straight face and right hand on the bible, that it is the pastor who 'has the final say'(with the weight & subsequent implications of such a phrase) in what happens between a husband & wife? It is just so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start  

Sometimes it is necessary to say some rude things and maybe there are some people tasked with doing it; so there, I've said some rude things now.

Lol. Constructively rude is good . . . my own would have been missing the 'constructive' part.

nuclearboy:
^ it is indeed me, Ma'am!

Don't worry - I have only ONE id !

One ID for now abi?    . . . . 

But those who could "cerebrally" engage Dulcet7 will now go easy on Inesqor is why my statement above & you will admit D7 brought some hot stuff there worthy of cross-examination

Yeah I really liked Dulcet which is why I vex & I no vex too much. I am curious how people like our boy Nesquizzy can talk as someone else . . . I find that just plain weird . . . but I love Inesqor so I can't even lash him like I would 

Who resurrected this thread?  thank you cos I needed a good laugh today 

[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=559737.msg9059951#msg9059951 date=1314931919]see me see wahala o. trouble de sleep, nyanga go wake am up.

Obama knows he cant fight the GOP yet he went to ask for trouble. he knows the GOP has fixed their debate on wed and yet he went to request a joint congress speech at the same time, feeling like a tough guy that wants a show down. and before i could sneeze the GOP has already pushed his aside giving him the record of being the first president to be so disrespected by the congress in rejecting(even if temporarily) a congressional speech.

this guy really makes me laugh

you know you are weak, yet you pick a fight . . . . and loose quickly . . lol [/quote]www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6www.nairaland.com/attachments/180447_ROTFLMAO_gif3d0c775232c7f27cf80592785b9635b6
  Prez zis iz FUNNNAY!!!  Abeg make una lef the guy jare   

Obama is in a quandry . . . Wednesday the 7th is the Republican debate . . . they want to move to Thursday the 8th which is the kick-off opener for the NFL - the biggest sport in America  chai! who is advising this man? Why didn't you just pick tuesday or friday to begin with? 

If I had to pick between A) Obama or  B)the Republican debate . . . A will be a snoozefest, B will be a circus with some nice clowns. I pick B, at least I will get some good laughs . . . And if I had to pick between A)Obama or B) the NFL of which I am a huge fan btw, no contest whatsoever, I'm watching the NFL (and oh fellow fans come meet me in the sports section https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-170354.0.html)

InesQor:
Join the Queue, Ma'am 

Oh . . . make I join queue ehn? How about John Q instead? I have just started with you boy, I have just started

nuclearboy:
Interesting stuff up there, Inesqor! You should not yet have disclosed twas you, though!
Wish I had the capability to "manifest" as the "questions inside" as you did in D7

Why not? We need to exorcise this rampant schizo-spirit of multiple id that is possessing this section . . . ahn ahn, am I even talking to you nuclearboy? or is this someone else too? 

I was going to comment on a few posts like Evilbrain's & Image . . . but this comment:

Joagbaje:
The pastor has the final say. That's the bible for you sir. The church has it's own structure ordained by God in redo ing conflicts.

. . . irritates me on so many levels that I will just hold my peace before I say something rude.

Anyone? . . .

Fantastic a couple people! 

Oduleke:
Yes o,here is a Building Technology student of d poly ibadan
TOWARDS ENVIRONMENTAL BETTERMENT

You currently pursuing a degree there?

chrisstokx:
yeah am a graduate of geography and environmental management from unilorin

Ah awesome! just the kind of person I was hoping for. Are you currently working in the field? I'm curious about the state/climate of environmental studies in Naija. I was also wondering about any kind of projects that may be going on right now or in the near future. And if there are any collaborations between countries/organizations on these projects.

Or if you have an idea of a comprehensive source online?

I'm heading into a focus on environmental studies - concentrating moreso in the social & development aspect, not limited to but also including policy making.

justhappy:
@Jesoul Thank you for this response. I am a person who is on the fence about Christianity. Trying to understand all of this. When I read the posts of someone like Hischild, which are literal interpretations and talk about unwavering obedience to the letter of the law, no divorce, abandon family to follow God, May 21 is judgment day, and the world will end this year etc, it is hard to take these beliefs seriously. But your post right now is quite refreshing and allows me to look more closely at Christianity with an open mind. Thank you!

My dear you are beyond welcome . I really commend you for critically thinking about these things . . . this way you will be able to know what you believe and why you believe it - this is what I believe God calls us all to - a purposeful & deliberate faith - not one that disconnects its heart & intellect and merely relies on religious texts and mogs. Being a christian(follower of Jesus) is faith in God - not obedience to doctrines - and by our fruit we shall know ourselves. I believe ones faith should liberate them - not enslave and reduce your existence to the adherence to a list of dos & don'ts; not a license to live recklessly for self, but instead a reckless freedom that is anchored by the golden code "To love the Lord with all my heart, soul and mind AND to love my neighbor as myself".

I wish you well as you think, ponder & consider, its a fun journey . . . one thing's for sure, if you seek, you shall find.

Nothing like a fiery discussion on tithes can bring out the 'Mr Hyde' outta otherwise gentle christians.

I wonder who will be first to lay down their ego and wave a white flag of apologetic humility . . . the sacrosanct charge of 'glorifying God in our interactions & speech - especially with one another - has sadly departed from this thread a long time ago.

justhappy:
@JeSoul What I meant is that people like Hischild just quote scripture but do not seem capable of any original thought. They have convinced themselves that thinking independently is a sin. Which is exactly what those who wrote the bible would want. How is this any different than suicide bombers, who do not question their beliefs and think they are being obedient. So, there are some things where common sense is necessary. For this thread, in the case of marriage, a spouse who is unfaithful, sleeps around with men and women, has abandoned his partner, threatened his partners life, and simply has put the person in danger. Common sense would say to leave. But according to Hischild the bible says absolutely not. That is just plain ignorant and ridiculous.

Your concerns are 100% seconded - and this is a very solid reason why people like yourself are perplexed sometimes by 'religious' people.

  Let me assure you though - I am a christian who believes in & follows the bible, and there are many of us who do not subscribe to a raw, fast & furiously direct application of scriptures verses that were written in a totally different time, for a totally different circumstance, to a totally different audience, immersed in a totally different culture.

Scripture is dynamic - not rigid. We study and glean important truths from both NT & OT. We take the principles and godly guidelines everywhere from Abraham to the ultimate in Jesus Christ and then fashion our lives after them. It brings life & freedom - not bondage to the rigid following of rules without understanding the heart & motive and most importantly purpose behind those commands.

---

@my fellow christians,
  Jesus chastized the Pharisees often. Why? because though they were obedient to the Law, their hearts and motives for doing so were impure. Jesus also chastized Martha, for complaining about Mary sitting at His feet instead of helping with the house work. Should the housework not be done? of course not - but in that instance - it was more important to sit and learn. Does God want divorce? of course not - but in certain instances it is the right course of action. If I will be so bold as to say it is more important in the sight of God to save a life - than to follow a doctrine, a doctrine of which the application to every single case is even suspect to begin with.

  There was a thread a week or so ago. A girl was run over by a bus but none of the men standing around moved a finger to help her. Their reason? they were muslim & they were fasting and it was against the religion to touch a woman during this time. Isn't this exactly what christians who insist a spouse remain in an abusive situation are also doing? Standing around and pointing to their 'religion' as justification for something you know is wrong? Please look in the mirror my fellow religious people, is the obedience of a doctrine more important than saving a life?

I know this is a long shot, but are there any Enviromental & Social Scientists here? At the intersection of enviromental issues & society & technology. I'd like to rub minds and discuss.

Thanks and hope to get at least one person

Image123:
Oh, so the spouse should not handle the consequences(staying unmarried or reconciling) but the spouse should handle the consequences(divorce). Case closed really.

Huh  what sin has the abused spouse committed that she/he must remain miserable the rest of their life? Why should they suffer the sins of someone else who refuses to repent? Please do tell.

  you skipped my other kweshion, no problem . But please feel free to answer this question. . .

JeSoul:
@All, what qualifies a man as a "husband" or a woman as a "wife"? that he/she recited a few vows in front of an audience? that he/she lives in the same house as the other? that he/she are intimate regularly? that he/she takes care of the other and provides for them?

justhappy:
@Hischild You must really like punishment or suffering. You have stated you will die before the end of this year, no divorce is allowed, one should part ways from family to follow God and this list goes on and on. Sounds like a person who has done so much wrong and is struggling from a guilty conscience. Therefore, you subconsciously punish yourself and justify it through the bible. Fascinating! From all that everyone has posted here, it is clear that there are reasons why one would divorce. No merciful god would want his "child" in a dangerous or deadly situation. You cannot just compare scripture with scripture, sometimes you have to compare it with common sense.

I missed this quote the first time around & I'm not sure how justhappy meant it but . . . at first blush it seems a provocative notion . . . at second reading it doesn't sound so bad - if it will help address the overly fundamental 'read & apply directly' approach of many christians today.

Inesqor, I am really really disappointed that you are Dulcet 

* . . . where is my tatashe water gun powered by jalapeno laced bullets? ah there! right next to the koboko . . . * ol boy, you berra run . . .

InesQor:
WOW! WOW!! Unreasoned religion can blind people and rip out their hearts!!! Merciless fools!



This story is so awful I don't even want to start on it.

_{Ciao Inesqor}
  Awful does not begin to describe it. Even the 'unbelievers' look at that and know that it is just plain wrong. Stories like that make you not blame 'atheists' for despising 'religion' sometimes.