₦airaland Forum

Deadlytruth:
I recall that JWs discredit translators of RSV for allegedly making an addition to a verse in the Bible with the aim of giving false credence to Trinity. That you reference the same RSV to defend your anti-trinity stance is quite curious.

Sorry, but you sound uninformed with the above , Even the LXX Septuagint admits two renderings for the above verse, I gave the example of RSV to buttress that fact . Many others also include it in their footnote because its not wrong to render it " God is your throne " .

Like I said earlier, it doesn't prove anything since verse 9 proves Jesus is not supreme .

However, only in your NWT is Heb. 1:8 deliberately distorted to suit a preconceived doctrine.
All other translations have it as "...... your kingdom, O God......."

LIKE I said earlier, you also sound informed here ... Check the below Translations

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”


And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’


Will you now make a PUBLIC APOLOGY for misleading the public and misrepresenting the witnesses with your bolded words ?

In John 8:58, Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am". Normally Jesus' use of "I am" was grammatically wrong as it should have been "before Abraham was born I was" or "before Abraham was born I had been". However he deliberately chose "I am" to imply that he is the very I AM THAT I AM whom Moses met in Mount Horeb while tending his father in-law's sheep, and the Jews there got the message and therefore saw it as blasphemous of equating himself with God due to their lack of understanding similar to that displayed by JWs today, and then they picked up stones to cast on him.

An angel also identified himself as " I am " to Manoah and wife ... Going by your logic, that angel is Yahweh ?

@ Bold When Yahweh introduced himself to Moses , He made mention that he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... Please back up your claim of Jesus is claiming I am , by telling us if Jesus is THE GOD OF ABRAHAM , ISAAC and JACOB as specifically told Moses ?

Deadlytruth:
If you go back to Acts 19:1-8, you'll see that the first time ever that Paul entered Ephesus, he immediately met some already existing believers who were 12 in number and he baptized them with the Holy Spirit.
This means there were already believers in Ephesus among whom those future elders were.
After baptizing those 12 Paul proceeded straight not to anyone's house but to the synagogue where he stayed for 3 months delivering his teachings with people coming to listen to him there including the would be church elders whom he would later identify and visit at home for having already becoming believers prior to his arrival in Ephesus.

Many became believers including those Elders through the ministry of Apostle Paul .

Act 20:25 " now look! I know that none of you among whom I PREACHED the Kingdom will ever see my face again "

Clearly Paul was referring to their past, He said he was the one who preached to them ... How did he do this ? Verse 20 answers .. Teaching you publicly and from house to house .

Deadlytruth:
Please what do you have to say about Hebrews 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Or was this verse not in the original text as usual?

The construction of this verse allows for two renderings . RSV footnote says " or God is thy throne " .

I just don't understand the point you are driving at, But I can assure you it doesn't prove the trinity since verse 9 says Jesus has a God .

Proving Jesus isn't Supreme .

Deadlytruth:
First of all let me appreciate you for trying to counter me with the scriptures than with utterances inspired by sentiments, and attacks with name calling and other mundane insinuations founded on persecution complex. You have just shown example of how Christians should disagree over principles. And for that I regard you as a true follower of Christ irrespective of you being a JW.
You see, my argument here is that house to house visits recorded in the Bible happened only between fellow believers and not for fresh evangelism which involved a believer and yet to be converted unbelievers. If, you had not, like other JWs, treated Acts 20:20 in isolation but have read the entire Acts chapter 20, you would have realized that Paul was speaking to only the Elders of the Church in Ephesus when he declared in that verse that he visited them from house to house. And if you have actually followed this thread from page 0 you should have seen where one JW brought up the visit of Peter to Cornelius and I explained to him that Cornelius was already a believer hence Peter's visit to him in his house was not for fresh evangelism for which Jesus forbade house to house visit in Like 10:7. So also Paul's reference to visiting the Ephesus Church elders in their houses as contained in Acts 20:20 was not for fresh proselytization but to church elders who were already believers. Could church elders have been in need of being evangelized afresh?

Don't forget those Elders have a past , a time when they are just Newly converted to Christianity ...

Paul was reminding them of their past by saying " You well know how I conducted myself among you from THE FIRST DAY I stepped into the province of Asia " - Act 20:18

When Paul stepped into Asia , his ministry there was recorded in Act 19:10 . He was simply reminding them of how he spoke to them then , which is through public teaching and from house to house - Act 20:20

Which resulted in their repentance - Act 20:21

Deadlytruth:
Verses in Luke chapter 10 say:

"Go! I am sending you like lambs among wolves. Don't take a purse or a beggar's bag or shoes..."

This means the disciples should not directly or indirectly beg unbelievers for financial assistance towards growing their ministry. But we see those who call themselves the only God approved organization begging unbelievers for financial contributions to the growth of their ministry through buying of their magazines. Is salvation at a cost? Funnily enough this denomination notorious for building their halls from funds solicited from unbelievers condemn other Christians who build their churches strictly from funds raised from among their congregations alone. Who is fooling who?



"....don't stop to greet anyone on the road.5 Whenever you go into a house, first say, ‘Peace be with this house.’ 6 If someone who is peace-loving lives there, let your greeting of peace remain on that person; if not, take back your greeting of peace. 7 Stay in that same house, eating and drinking whatever they offer you, for workers should be given their pay...."

This means on arrival at the target town they should first locate a house where there is a believer or potential believer ready to lodge and accommodate them for the duration of the exercise.

"Don't move around from one house to another."


Here is the specific instruction given in unequivocal terms against house to house preaching.

8.Whenever you go into a town and are made welcome, eat what is set before you, 9 heal the sick in that town, and say to the people there, ‘The Kingdom of God has come near you.’

This obviously means to speak the message to residents of the town as a public announcement which the other Christian Churches do today in the form of open air crusades accompanied with healings.


10.But whenever you go into a town and are not welcomed, go out in the streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust from your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. But remember that the Kingdom of God has come near you!

What we see above is town, town, town and not individual houses. So where did this people get this house to house doctrine from?

@red, I guess the apostles disobey Jesus Christ ? Act 20:20

OnyeOGA:
they are not separate, for He and His Father are one(John 10:30)

Stop the ignorant talk, aren't his disciples also " One " ?

Tell us if it means John is same as Peter .

Christ didn't say I and my Father are " one God " . he said " One" ... Read your Bible!

cybriz82:
u guys keep refering jesus Christ as servant of God Bt why

Jesus is called a servant of God in the scriptures - Act 3:13

Jehovah's witnesses believed Christ is the son of God .

freshboi88:
Jws are not Christians and it is not a Christian group. Pple who don't believe Jesus is God are not followers of Jesus. Christians are pple who follow and worship Jesus not only in words but also in actions, in essence they act like Jesus, that's why they were called Christians n d first place.

Read your bible , TRUE worshippers will worship the Father - John 4:23

.

ChristianFreedo:
The idea of accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal savior came as a result of two distinct background. For the Jews and the Gentiles. Without understanding the background, the idea behind it will not be appreciated.

Jews:
In the arraignment God had for the nation of Israel, the requirement for having God's favor and approval was based on their living in accord with the requirement of the mosaic law. (Ex 19:5,6) Animal sacrifice yearly for their sins, circumcision, love one another etc.

With Christ coming, and after his sacrificial death, no longer was living in accord with the law of Moses a requirement, animal sacrifices gave way, circumcision was not a requirement, the law code was simplified into two, love of God and neighbor, (mainly because love of God and neighbor provided a stronger incentive for doing good and pleasing God, than sets of rules and laws, for love revealed what is in the heart: for anyone can obey rules and laws, as the pharisee did, but obeying laws and rules does not reveal love, mercy and compassion, as was greatly lacking in the dealings of the Pharisee with the common people. Therefore, laws gave way with the arrival of Christ. Love was the law's fulfillment, "it was their tutor, leading them to Christ".)

But the problem was, being declared righteous for the Jews was dependent on living in accord with the laws of Moses, animal sacrifice, circumcision, mosaic laws. Those were the yardstick for being viewed as someone who has lived a righteous life and seen to have God's favor. For converted Jews,Christians, followers of Christ, non of those was a requirement. All that was ever needed was for them to exercise faith in Jesus, be baptized and they salvation was guaranteed. (not in the area of one's saved always saved) Jn 3:16 -18. For it is with the heart one exercises faith in God's son, but with the mouth he made his public declaration that his salvation depended on Jesus, be baptized and is saved.



That is the primary reason the apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Galation Christians. (Please read Galatians chapters 1-6, possibly using New Living Translation to see the words come alive.) It is evident from Paul's letter that a similar situation you find in Acts 15, were certain men caused trouble for the congregation, also occurred in the Galatian Congregation. In this case, these men were teaching that obeying the mosaic law was necessary for their salvation. (Ga 1:6-9) Reading Ga 2:2, the apostle showed that he presented the same good news to the those highly regarded, privately, the good news about the Christ, having faith in him was all that was needed, not obeying the mosaic law or circumcision. He strongly made a case for it, against those who were highly regard, for fear his works for Christ was in vain. Simply put, he needed to correct the errors they were bringing into the congregation that obeying the mosaic law was an important requirement. How would his work supposed to be in vain, if the insistence of mosaic law requirement succeeded - that righteousness was through the mosaic law, then, said he, Christ died for nothing (Ga 2:21)

Chapters 3 particularly showed what he issue was, it was about seeking to be declared righteous by keeping the law of Moses. (verse 2,3)

The point is, for a converted Jew, keeping to the laws of Moses and other requirement of the law was not a yardstick to receiving God's blessing. They received God's spirit by simply havign faith in christ, not as a result of their works. Seeking to be declared righteous by works became like a sin to them, for no amount of their works or human effort could ever lead them to being save. Christ had done all that for them.No wonder the apostle Paul called them senseless (Ga 3:1, 3,) All it took for them was to have faith in their heart, publicly showed that faith by baptism.

In that case, for a converted Jew, accepting Christ their Lord and personal savior meant that not living according to the Jewish customs of worship. But following the new way of life, which Christ had established.

Gentiles:
Gentiles or people of the nation were very separate, different from the Jews. They worshiped idols, made of wood and stones, offer sacrifices etc. They were involved in all sort of immoral practices, not like the Jews themselves were not. (But at least, while Jesus was on earth, I believe such practices were limited, an exception rather than the rule. For Jesus did not condemn them for such practices as Idolatry, immorality but most about their lack of love, mercy, justice. He condemned the Pharisees for their strict adherent to the laws, while allowing important things like mercy, justice and love to suffer.)

So for them accept Christ as their Lord and savior, it meant they would have to depend on Christ for their salvation, not on their idols or images or their personal strength. Most of these gentiles did so, but as they became Christians, some Jews that were still stuck to the past,of law keeping wanted them to follow suit,claiming "unless you are circumcised according to the law of Moses, you cannot be saved" (Ac 15:2,compare with Ga 3:2-5) Of course, these were Christians, salvation was not based on the laws of Moses anymore. It was based on having faith in Christ.

Without understand the bases for the call to believe Jesus as our Lord and savior, you cannot understand who is doing so and who is not. We are Nigerians, we had our traditional believe and gods, with their own reward and punishment system. In the real sense of the word, we were gentiles. However, decades ago, some men brought the Christian God to us, they brought the gospel about Jesus to us and our forefathers accepted it. They left their own gods, decided to believe in these Christian God and his son Jesus. They had faith in him, publicly declare it by water baptism.

Many other came into these worlds, decades later and were introduced into the same belief system. Others were Islam, then heard the gospel of the Christ, had faith in him and also publicly declared that faith by water baptism. Of course, we all have a choice, we can choose to return to our traditional gods, become atheist, or decide to believe in nothing at all. But for those who had decided to believe in this foundation stone, which is Jesus (1 Co 3:11), they chose not to have "salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Ac 4:12), these ones are the ones who are conscious of their spiritual needs (Mt 5:3), they have demonstrated in words and action that they believe in Jesus for their salvation, not in their local gods or the detects of the mosaic law.

So, to your question, How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord?, look around you, ask your neighbor, ask them their believe, who they depend on for salvation. I am sure, out 10, you will meet at least 2.

*************************************************************
You said I avoided your question,or looking for where to copy, well, I do not have much to say, other than "wisdom is proven righteous by its works". (Lu 7:35) It's not everything you respond to. I simply understood that we were not dealing with the main issue, which is, what must one do to be save? That is what we needed to address, any other thing was a distraction, simply not dealing with the root problem.

As a Jehovah's witnesses, I understood where you were coming from. It is your believe that no matter what an individual do, living a sinless life, believing Christ, giving to the poor, even preaching the gospel every minute of the clock, etc, if that individual is not a member of the religious organisation of Jehovah's witness, then he has wasted his time and energy. That is your watchtower belief. That was the main issue. Therefore, I wanted us to address that issue, does the bible teach that belonging to the watchtower organisation is a yardstick to gain God's favor? What does the bible say, is a requirement to everlasting life?



Well, like you said, you have not interest in taking up the challenge. I understand, it not comfortable. I will not worry you any longer. When I open one, I am sure you will be there to comment .

Go back to my previous post where I addressed the two questions and quote me properly . @ blue .

You are still blabbing Sir with the above, Going by your postulation every so called Christian has accept Jesus as Lord since they have forsaken their idols . you are clueless @Green


Then you went ahead to mention " Action" to make it look like you know what you are saying .. Now, by Action .
. What does that involve ? Do they worship in isolation or as an organized group of Christians ? Do they who accept Christ also obey his commandment including that which said preach the Goodnews of Gods kingdom ? @ highlighted

All this are areas you omitted. , as for me asking my neighbours ... My neighbours are scattered in various religions with different doctrines yet all claim to accept Jesus as Lord . [b] I thought the true Christ disciples will be " one " and united in the same line of thought ? .

I already see you have no idea of this question, now go back and address my previous post which you avoided .

manitobor:
Good evening.

No o, no problem o. It's just that the ingratiating tone of that post of yours left me in stiches. The last line was especially funny.

There is nothing ingratiating about the post Sir , I dont seek human approval.

I was just pained at how the said guy could rubbish her just because she is mother of one , calling her " EXPIRED PRODUCT " , that can hurt any woman .

Who knows how what the said guy uttered must have affected her ? Or probably she still thinks about it to even narrate it on here .. This is what gave birth to the last line. Just a reassuring text that she still has value on her own no matter what anyone might say .

Try to get where am coming from before you conclude .

Have a nice day Sir

manitobor:
[left][/left]

Good evening

Any problem Sir ?

prestigiouslady:
A guy was on my neck for months, I told him it can't work out between us cos I feel nothing for him...One day he called me and I was cold cos I didn't want to give him any hope.
Na so uncle vex that day, he said terrible things to me, he said he was actually trying to help me cos I'm a single mom and an expired product,that I should be happy he wants to go out with someone like me, that my shakara was too much.
I was suprised, didn't know what to say cos it came like a rude shock.
I called him few days later to tell him at least I'm glad I have a functioning uterus and I can bring a baby to life, I asked what he has to show for his numerous banging of girls, impotent man...he didn't take it so nice.
Anyways, I'm happy I never got close to a man so shallow minded
Some guys just don't take rejection so nice

Don't mind the fellow, His reaction revealed his kind of person ... Also shows your not accepting such a person is a good decision.

#Take care , May Jehovah be with you .

ChristianFreedo:
This thread was based on watchtower finances and the deception involved in it. It was you who derailed the thread to alternatives to organizations. Not me. I have no intention to continue in the derailment.

But any day, anytime you are ready to pick up the challenge, I will be ready. I'm already working on it.

All the while, you have been shouting someone is confused, being tossed about... and everything you can think of. I have no interest in trading words or insulting or attacking a person. It doesn't serve any purpose. I'm more focused on issues, issues and issues. I learn everyday, I don't claim to know everything and will continue to learn.

The question are very simple and I'm posting them again. If you feel up to the challenge, as a jehovah's witness, take it up. Defend your watchtower doctrine.

You asked of an alternative, often you do that. But it all based on the core issue, which is, as a jehovah's witness, your watchtower believe is, belonging to a religious organization is a requirement for having God's favor and everlasting. In this case, not just a religious organization, but most specifically, watchtower organization or being a jehovah's witness. That is why you keep asking the questions of show us something better, show us alternatives.

Without dealing with the core issues, it's just a waste of time. We will simply be going round in cycles. So, why not deal with the core issues? Why not allow the Bible answer that core questions?

Also related to that core issue of belonging to organizations (watchtower organization) is the question for central governing body or central control of all congregations. Which watchtower, says is supported in the Bible, (of course, this central control started during the presidency of J F Rutherford).

For your information, Am not creating any thread , So far you didn't open a thread when replying me in your presentation of Alternative, which wasn't even sound considering you avoided the major question . How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord?

So yes, If there is any response am gonna give , it would be on this thread .

So, both cases are intrinsically related. Here are the questions, when you take it up, I'll be happy to meet you. Scripturally,

1. Is belonging to a religious organization a requirement for everlasting life as taught by watchtower? What does the Bible say is required for one to have everlasting life in God's new word?

As taught by the scriptures, its very essential to be a part of Gods organized people.


The example of first century Christians even made this further clear, As more and more people joined the apostles , they give themselves to the teachings of the apostles , As time goes by Congregations were formed all been united on the same line of teaching as handed over by the apostles, in each congregation, Elders or overseers are put in place ... For what purpose is all this , is it required for everlasting life ?

Hebrews 13:17

" Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive for they are keeping watch over you

For what are they keeping watch over the other Christians if not to safeguard their Everlasting life ?

2. Is there scriptural proof showing a central control or a central governing body, as practiced and claimed by the watchtower organization, in the first century? did congregations in the first century answer to a ruling body in Jerusalem (governing body) or did they have individual autonomy (as Bible student have prior to the formation of an organization by J. F. Rutherford). Also, did early Christians had to run their decisions by the Jerusalem led governing body?

There was Central authority , which makes it easier for them be one in thought a d united in the same mind as advised in the scriptures .

The events of Act 15 further proved this.

- Why would they send people to Jerusalem, if they didn't recognize a central authority ?

- Why does the Overseer Body in Jerusalem had to send a Letter to all congregation if they are not an authority ?

Can you please address that .

[s]

This are the issues at stake. The core issue. I'm not interested in your personality. I'm interested in these issues. When you are ready, I will be ready. Then will tag all the jws in this forum. I'm waiting, no matter how long it takes.

So why not start from the root of the issue? Why beats round the bush while we can deal with these issues from the root? What say you? Take up any of these questions, provide what your scriptural proof is, analyze them. Post them. Then tag me.

Note: you keep mentioning isolated Christians. The issue is not about isolated Christians meeting in their homes for worship. Jesus said, where two or three are gathered in his name, he will be there. So, even if I meet with one or two people, it should fulfill that Scriptural requirement of not forsaking the gathering together. But however, for watchtower, it doesn't, it has to be an organization (watchtower organization), with it central control and direction.

Two or three gathering together can be organized and may not be. An organization is different from being organized. For watchtower, is issue is not being organized, because for two or three to be gathered together takes a measure of organizing. For watchtower, the issue is organization, watchtower organization, not being organized. [/s]

Addressed!


Reply me strictly with scriptures .

MuttleyLaff:
As I said, he has his moments


You of little faith, why are you so unsure of yourself?


I will repeat below, the question you skipped answering
Now, tell me brother, please.
If the soul remaining last to preach the gospel to, is in the Big Brother House or on Big Brother Naija, are you saying you wont go on it?
If your presence, on Big Brother Naija will mark a positive effect or influence on others,
if the manner in which you behave, especially in a particular situation or time on Big Brother Naija, will postively impact others
are you saying, you wouldnt do it?

Why dont you speak for yourself

I can give you a scripture and more on being courageous, daring and willingness to take risks

Morning Bro

You don't have to castigate him ( Daviddson ) for seeing danger to his faith and taking action . Proverb 22:3 says the wise sees the danger and FLEE .

Apostle Paul counsel as well: 1 Cor 10:12


Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing securely should watch out so he doesn't fall. .



As for the topic, Based on 1 Corinthians 15:33 which says Bad association corrupt good habits , It would be wise for a person not to even go into such shows . Even If he has good intentions, the people around and his fans might lure him into compromising .
well, so far we haven't anything faith strengthening about the show except glorifying different kind of immoral actions , being in the midst of such association can corrupt a persons faith.

For example: Going into a brothel in the name of preaching can spell doom for the preacher himself , as the sight of the various atrocities been committed plus indecent dressing can further corrupt his own mind - that is where Gal 6:1 comes in, as you try to help people, be careful you are not tempted to sin .

Good morning Brother.

achorladey:
His point of reference will centre on this two materials Crisis of conscience and In search of Christian freedom both written by Raymond Franz. Definitely he(christianfreedo) is having his own crisis of conscience and definitely searching for christian freedom. Mr Raymond can only talk when he was finally disfellowship/disassociated. He talked and wrote the books only because he had pressures all around him considering his status within the organization previously.You claim to still be inside of the organization and you are talking silently using the social media. It only means one thing. You know that already. Its easy to say the Jws parrot what the organization dictates. Oga christianfreedo wetin you dey parrot? Words of who? Learn to live quietly and mind your business it might be difficult for you to do just as it is difficult for every christian to do. Yet me must stive hard to do it. But there are boundaries. You have yours set already, keep to it.

The fellow is a confused one . when asked if he has any alternative , he replied in two ways .

his first part if the response is this quoted below

Christianfreedo
The alternative is seek your salvation in Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of your faith. Give your life to him, accept him as your Lord and savior, your mediator and you will have a beautiful reward as sons of God. That is the alternative.

Which led to the question, if the above is the alternative ... then .

- If a person accept Jesus as Lord, Do they worship in isolation or as an Organized group ? ( a case study of first century Christians )

- How do we know someone has accept Jesus as Lord ? is it by shouting Jesus is Lord up and down .. how exactly ?

the two questions as you can see came from his response. So Logically has to be cleared on this thread as it demand further explanation from Christianfreedo if he really knows what he is saying .

fortunately for him he couldn't reply any since , only to keep finding ways to derail which has not been successful for him .



The fellow again in his unclear and confused state of mind demands a thread for the question : are the first century Christians under a Central authority ?

what are the facts ?

In the same response I quoted above, he present another reply with images from the books you mentioned to prove his point that central authority is not necessary among the Christians .

which raised the question for him : Are the first century Christians under a central authority ? or each in isolation ?

Sense require that so far all this are the results of his very own response on this thread, this thread should solve it !!!

ChristianFreedo:
Let's deal with one issue at a time.

Funny,

Both are very special to this thread .

1. as to do with what you presented as ALTERNATIVE

2. As to do with The same ALTERNATIVE as it aims to see if those who accept Christ as Lord are Organized or not .

If we are going to deal with what it takes to have everlasting life, we deal with it. If we are going to deal with if there was a central control or government of the first century where all christian congregation depended on for decisions, as done by watchtower organisation today, then let's deal with it.

Your post above is irrelevant, I asked for an ALTERNATIVE and what you presented as ALTERNATIVE generated the two questions .

So we are still on alternative, all this above are just childish attempts to derail .

I am ready!!!.
Open a thread on any of the two, present your evidence to support your claim as a Jehovah's witness, scriptural evidence. Then tag me, I will respond with a counter evidence, that is if you are wrong.

Choose one topic out of the two. Present your evidence. Then when we are satisfied with it, we move to another.

Seems you quickly forget .

Your response on ALTERNATIVE was given on this thread , Yes or No ?

Logically then, the questions that arise on that post you made should be addressed here .

The two topics are:
1. What does it does it take for one to get save and have everlasting life as a christian. Or most specifically, is a belonging to a religious organisation like watchtower a requirement for everlasting life? ( So the question is not if they worship as a group or as an isolated christian, the question is if belonging to a religious organisation, especially watchtower, a requirement for inheriting God's kingdom)

Yeye dey smell

Does the underlined implied you already accepted they worship as a group of Organized Christian ? not isolated individuals .

- Answer that first then we can move to if such been organized in the first century is a " REQUIREMENT" or Not .

2. Is there any evidence to prove that they was a central control of the christian congregation in the first century?

Open a thread. Choose one topic at a time. Present your evidence. Then tag me. I will present a contrary evidence. One thread for each topic.


Jozzy4

No, we can't open another thread , It has to be solved here because this is where the REPLY of yours that gave birth to the two questions was given .

My evidence for Central authority is in Act 15:2,23,30-31

So I in expect your response to the question above too .

eagerly waiting .

pending ...

You talked about accepting Jesus as Lord .. How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord ? Is it by saying " Jesus is my Lord " or how exactly ?

that's make a 3rd questions .

Note this : All 3 questions arise from the response you gave right here on this thread , So it needs to be properly dealt with here .

ChristianFreedo:


The Watchtower study was on centralized authority, which it claim the first century Christian was, which is not true.


The post I referred you to discuss the issue of centralized authority. Here is the link again.

https://www.nairaland.com/3765935/serious-problem-watchtower-study-23rd

I know you will keep presenting links up and down, which expose your very Poor knowledge of scripture PUBLICLY



--- Regarding the bold, Kindly tell me why every Christian congregation rely on the decision of the Body of Elders in Jerusalem if they are not under a centralized authority ?

Question 1 .

°°° I see you have avoided the issue of either those who accept Jesus as Lord worship each in isolation OR as a group of organized Christians in the first century, waiting for your view ?

°°° What does it mean to accept Jesus as Lord which you prescribed as alternative, By Saying " Lord " by mouth ? how exactly ?


Respond with appropriate scriptures not link .

Toks2008:
This is an archaic reason cos these days there are ways round this and a fetus genotype can be known before it fully developes.

Oh, there are Way's around it. ? I don't know.. But even if that's the case, has Nigeria or Africa in general advance to that level?


and if the foetus is " SS ", you support Abortion ?

Toks2008:
Often times we use the words "I love you" but with a little tilt in the emotional balance,we tend to walk away from the lives of the people we claim to love.

I have heard countless excuses why many couples break up and in most cases,these excuses are lame, unreasonable and indeed as the name implies,an excuse they just want to hold on to in order to carry out their predetermined intent of leaving.

There will always be a reason to stay or leave any romantic union we find ourselves and in most cases,there will be more reasons to leave rather than stay but if you truly love someone,you will make excuses for their flaws and you will meticulously find one reason to remain in their lives.

I hope this makes sense.

Sir Toks, I don't really support that ... Do you mean two people who love each other but are both genotype " AS " should still find a reason to hold on ?

Don't pay a dogs visit to a Lions den . you may not come out unhurt ...@op

Even the Bible at Proverb 22:3 says , the wise person sees the danger and FLEE , but the inexperience keep going and suffer the consequence

Why not meet at Public place like an eatery or other cool places where people can be around for security reasons , Like @ Ruthdaniels said .. Attraction is a powerful thing, be wise

Cc: doris4u

removetheturban:
You can talk here and not run away to another thread. As a matter of fact, you opened this thread. Why can't you answer my question on Revelation 21:1? Are you not going to expose Revelation 21:1?

I know it will come to that, he will keep running from pillar to post when it comes to Scripture .

As seen, His Poor state of knowledge is easily exposed.

ChristianFreedo:
At the bolded, refer to my post on preaching work

https://www.nairaland.com/3218197/jehovahs-witnesses-todays-watchtower-study

Comprehension, My post wasn't about preaching work ... Its about ORGANIZATION, Your earlier rants was that believing in Jesus doesn't require the presence of any organization.

To which I asked ; How did the first century Christians carry out preaching work and meetings , If they ain't organized ? Is it each person doing their thing in isolation ?

So simple, respond .

For centralized control and administration, please refer to my post here.

https://www.nairaland.com/3765935/serious-problem-watchtower-study-23rd

Any question, you ask them in each of those post.

I didn't ask for all that irrelevant quotes, am discussing the bible with you . Speak!

Are the first century Christians under a Centralized authority ?

We just wanna know of centralized authority is scriptural or not .

Mr speak your mind and stop referencing . State what you believe in this points and.let's use the Bible as our guide .

Now , Back to the issue of alternative which you failed to address, How does a person shows they have accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour ? Is it by MOUTH ( saying I accept Jesus as Lord , or shouting " Lord " " Lord " ) what exactly does it mean ? let's see if you really understand what you are saying .

Expecting your response

Even the fellow that posted that was deceived and scammed.

God didn't kill himself , lack of knowledge is affecting the guy .

God send his son as a ransom to save mankind that has been sold into sin .

Clearly, your Poor knowledge was exposed , Let's examine the content of your response

ChristianFreedo:
The alternative is seek your salvation in Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of your faith. Give your life to him, accept him as your Lord and savior, your mediator and you will have a beautiful reward as sons of God. That is the alternative.

- You haven't provide any alternative, Do Jehovah's witnesses told you they don't accept Jesus as lord and saviour ??

Wait, How does a person show they accept Christ as Lord , BY MOUTH ( saying " Lord, Lord " ?

Infact explain

I will be glad to hear your response on this .

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643323_salvationbyanorganisation_jpgd1765c55786a856a93a5723d646a53b2

As you have seen above, the organisation of Jehovah's witnesses continue to place emphasis on salvation by their organisation, asking witnesses to put faith in the organisation as a means of salvation, without which, they claim one cannot have a relation with God. By such indoctrination, the watchtower assumes the role of Christ mediatorship, as" the way, the truth and the life" (they even teach that Christ Jesus is not a mediator for all Jehovah's witnesses)

The problem I see is that Witnesses read biblical statement, then automatically adjust them to fit the organisation concept. In that sense, witnesses will frequently ask you "where should i go", "show us something better", "show us the true organisation you want to join". That is mainly because, worship of God and gaining his favor has been tied to a place or a location (where) -just as when Israel tied worship to the temple in Jerusalem and the Samaritans to the mountains) and not to an individual (whom).

In that way, when Jesus asked his disciples, “You do not want to go also, do you?” Peter responded, “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (Jn 6:67,68) Jehovah's witnesses, in quoting the text to favor staying in the watchtower organisation will say: "where should do you want to go to?", "show us something better", "show us the true organisation you want to join".

But peter did not say "where", but he said, “whom shall we go away to?”. Peter did not express faith in an organisation, but in Jesus himself, saying “you [Jesus Christ] have sayings of everlasting life.” But due to indoctrination the mind of Jehovah's witnesses makes an automatic switch, replacing the person, Jesus (whom), with “the organization”, (where)

That the organization wants you to make this transference. This is how the organisation has become an idol, a stumbling block, to Jehovah's witness, becoming a mediator in place of Jesus. It's is not wonder they can teach that Jesus does not mediate for all Jehovah's witnesses.

How did the apostle's and first century Christians carry out Meeting together and the preaching work ... Each in isolation or as an organized group ? Act 15:2, 22,23

Did Jesus ( the Master ) prophesy that his congregation would be catered for through a channel ? Matthew 24:45,46

Kindly respond, and let's see if your accept Christ in isolation theory fits with what is happening among the faithful early Christians.

However, contrary to such notion, the bible in nowhere teaches that salvation is through any religious organisation or man made organisation. Reading through the bible, Genesis to Revelation, what is clear is, we are called to put faith in God, faith in his Son, faith in the Word of God, the bible for salvation, but nowhere are we taught to put faith in men or in an organisation.

So, to your question again, where will i go or show you something better? My answer is, why do i need to go anywhere? Why do i need to show you somewhere better? While i can only point to who is better. I point you to Jesus Christ, the one to whom all nations of the earth will bow before. My Lord and my savior.

****************************************************************
The problem of replacing Jesus and simple christian brother into an organisation of power and control did not start today. It started hundreds of years of ago. Below are some materials for you to go through at your own time. In chapter 3, Centralized Authority, the subheading is Salvation Only In and Through the Religious Organization, in the book [url=]In search of Christian Freedom[/url], you may find the article really enlightening.

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643785_1_jpeg83b5009e040969ee7b60362ad742657[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643786_2_jpegea571676ce9b75b0730a5d56350ae93e

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643787_3_jpeg182845aceb39c9e413e28fd549058cf8[[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643795_4_jpeg9679ccb5a92f650b83fcf29e0a6a677

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643796_5_jpegddf9c9a45551e218c4018d5c53e9f6bb[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643797_6_jpegc57de7ffb63a04971dc3a933cf2f080d

[]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643798_7_pegaba4c12c0307ac56aedf5e7b2dadf69b[[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643812_8_jpeg4f84f02beb6427bc9a6d8d09d2376746

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643813_9_jpeg02519bfb266773f243fdef49420313d[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643814_10_jpeg549cfc258b5b09317e51edf0d640cf

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643815_11_jpegf7f163af78812e58c4d3c47b4e3[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643819_12_jpegd077e4317cde1e70737c7d56169291

[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643820_13_jpege02b5f50d064103233b3adee3b96a5lll[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/6643821_14_jpegdcf816fe7054b0a74c353321030b73c

Are the first century Christians under a Centralized authority ?

If Yes, does it replace Jesus as Lord ?

By the time you respond to all this, We will see if you really know what you are saying or you are just deceiving yourself .

Expecting your responses

Try steed browser or Phoenix browser.

Very fast , Especially Steed browser

removetheturban:
Undeniably, it doesn't. Therefore, be a man of truth and integrity and answer my questions.
1) Are you a Christian or an Atheist?

2)What is the name of your church?

3)What are the tenets of your doctrines?

He can never answer

It will expose his confused state and poor knowledge.

ChristianFreedo:
Why do you call me coward? I don't insult people and I don't like being insulted. Please, I would appreciate you avoid the insult.

As for why you are called coward, its right there in the post !!!

Tomorrow is Sunday, Join them again to study at their meetings . Okay

If you are bold enough to go head to head with this people you are using your life to condemn on basic Bible teachings like ressurection, Immortal soul, trinity or hellfire etc ... I know you will be perfectly silenced

Knowing this , its only irrelevant issues like this thread you can bring up.

Oga, when are you leaving the watchtower ? the writer of the article has left. What about you , Still Afraid as a coward does ?

removetheturban:
Giving you airtime on this issue means making you feel important about your personal vendetta against the JW. In a nutshell, what is the message in all the copy and paste? What religion do you practice? Tell us about your own beliefs and let others exercise their freedom of religion. Are you a Christian or an Atheist?

Good questions, This fellow has been all over Nairaland sometimes ago, the worst part is he confessed to still attending the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses . the coward said he is afraid of his parents and family which is why he still remained there . among those people he called fake. I thought his bible said get out of there my people , he should have obeyed that of he is truly convinced they are what he thinks . But No, fellow is confused.

He doesn't make any sense if you ask me, When you condemn Maxam toothpaste .. You must be ready to offer another better toothpaste for the person in replacement , that's Sense . . He hasn't offer anything he wants to achieve with his silly threads which makes it lack substance, He is just a slanderer .

I don't know how a sensible person will be ranting on issues they know nothing about , Ranting on the fact that they use volunteered workers to achieve their objective of Matthew 24:14 . , Ranting on the fact that Donations may exceed Expenses . Very stupid thread .

@Christianfreedo, My questions are still there for you to answer .

Christianfreedo

All of us who have left the Watchtower should appreciate what true Christian generosity means.

silly copy and paste as usual

Have you left the watchtower ?

Tell us that true Christianity you have found, a sensible person don't just condemn without having an alternative .. Tell me ?

Emusan:
Just imaging, Jesus said He made the name KNOWN. So, that's how your organization has programmed you to interpret this verse.

At least you people always hide under misquote works of some NT scholars but can you give us at least TWO NT scholars who interpreted this verse as Jesus was moving around shouting JEHOVAH up and down?

Besides, if your interpretation of this verse means Jesus was actually telling people about the name Jehovah, why didn't you call Jesus Himself Jehovah? Since Jesus said He came in his Father's name! John 5:43

Jesus is not the Father , he is clear enough that the name from whom he came Belongs to his Father and he was sent by that one .

Now you are asking me to provide evidence. (That means you didn't even read the OP in the first place you only jumped in as a robot to support your brother about the name Jehovah) because according to your brother who opened this thread, he said the original pronunciation was lost SHORTLY after the OLD TESTAMENT was completed.

Was OT completed after the death of Jesus or before Jesus was born?

This is what he said from the OP because you need to be taught like a primary 4

Eeyah, Sorry o ... Pele. I think its becoming clear who is the robot

Now I know your problem is comprehension

So when Jews invent superstition = Lost the pronunciation . ? Your case is critical

They still knew the pronunciation,

It wasn't lost until centuries later

Lets look at the quote again:


" However, After the Hebrew Scriptures (“Old Testament”) were completed, some Jews adopted the superstitious belief that it was wrong to utter God’s personal name. "

Was it ALL the Jews that adopt this after the Old testament or Hebrew scriptures were completed ? NOT ALL, " Some "

Which means it was STILL PRONOUNCED by many

It continues


" When they read aloud a scripture that contained God’s name, they substituted expressions such as “Lord” or “God.” As centuries passed, this superstition spread and the ancient pronunciation was eventually lost. "

It wasn't lost until the superstition spread after many centuries, it was EVENTUALLY ( or Gradually ) lost ... Can You now authoritatively Say nobody knew how it was pronounced in Jesus day ?

Hairyrapunzel:
Which latest? What you even believe to be latest are all theories not proven facts.
Therefore an assumption. Based on hear say.

In what year were your sources written?
One thing we know for sure is that Your sources are not the original ancient Greek manuscripts they were written using the origina l Greek manuscripts which still did not have Jehovah or YHWH.

The bottom line is your sources claim that the name Jehovah or YHWH was deleted from the original Greek manuscripts. Therefore the original Greek manuscripts never had the name Jehovah written in it.

You are smelling of ignorance .

Read , read , read , UPGRADE .

Do the oldest manuscript of Greek Septuagint contains the name Jehovahnor not ? Do the Apostles and Greek scriptures writers quote from the Septuagint ?

If Matthew wrote his works in Hebrew, and quotes verses directly from Hebrew manuscript's which contains the divine name , what does that tell ignorant fellow like you ?

UPGRADE!