₦airaland Forum

solite3:
hmm you guys are a confuse set of people

when u have nothing to say to his simple and direct answer

solite3:
Occult Spiritist Supports New World Translation
Tommy Dorsett

The Watchtower Society is quite familiar with Pastor Johannes Greber and his translation of The New Testament. They have quoted him at least nine times in their publications dating from 1956 to 1983.[/color]

Seven of the quotations were of a positive nature and were used to support the Society's translation of certain biblical passages (such as John 1:1).

The other two were negative in that they exposed Greber as a spiritist who relied on the spirit world to help him translate his New Testament.

In typical Watchtower fashion, the Society got as much mileage out of Greber as possible and when their hand was exposed, they sanctimoniously tossed him aside.

It all began in 1956 in the Watchtower. Greber was revealed as a spiritist who translated the New Testament with help from God's spirits. The article says, in part:

"Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of this translation of the New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: `I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty-eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God's spirits. The day came, however, when I involuntarily took my first step toward such communication and experienced things that shake me to the depths of my soul...'

"In keeping with his Roman Catholic extraction Greber's translation is bound with a gold-leaf cross on its stiff front cover...Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes helped him in his translation" (15 February).

Exposing Greber as a spiritist was certainly the right thing to do and, in fact, was consistent with the Society's teaching on spiritism over the years.

In the 1965 edition of the book, Make Sure Of All Things, Hold Fast To What Is Fine, they say, "Practice of any form of spiritism brings divine disapproval" (p. 469) and, "Destroy objects related to spiritistic practices" (p. 470).

In the 1968 book The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, they say, "One of the ways that wicked spirits mislead men and women is through spiritism...The Bible warns us to keep from every practice associated with spiritism... God condemns every kind of spiritism" (p. 61).

Finally, in the 1978 booklet Unseen Spirits, Do They Help Us? or Do They Harm Us? they write, "In ancient Israel God commanded that anyone who practices spiritism was to be stoned to death" (p. 30); and, "According to his inspired Word, Jehovah God hates all such practices no matter what form they take or on what continent they are found" (p. 31).

And finally, "If we want Jehovah's friendship and protection, we must break all connections and associations with spiritism in its many forms. That includes disposing of any objects that relate to spiritism" (p. 41).

It is obvious that they know the dangers of spiritism. But as indicated earlier, that is not the whole story.

Just six years after exposing Greber as a spiritist, the Society acts as if they never did such a thing and, instead, they reveal Greber as a biblical scholar ( a much needed biblical scholar) in support of their own New World Translation (NWT) rendering of John 1:1.

It was 1962 when the Society introduced a new booklet entitled The Word, Who Is He? According to John. They quote Greber's translation of John 1:1. as "and the Word was a god" (p. 5) instead of "and the Word was God."

The footnote reads, "The New Testament - A New Translation and Explanation. Based on the oldest manuscripts, by Johannes Greber...edition of 1937, the front of this bound translation being stamped with a golden cross."

So there is no mistake about it, both the 1956 Watchtower article and this booklet are using the same edition of Greber's New Testament (1937 edition with the gold cross on the front cover).

In the 1956 article, Greber is a spiritist, but from this point on they are off and running with their newly found biblical scholar, Johannes Greber. In fact, 1962 was a very good year for the Society to quote Greber, the biblical scholar, as they also quoted him in the September 15 Watchtower (p. 554).

Occult Spiritist Supports New World Translation
Tommy Dorsett

The Watchtower Society is quite familiar with Pastor Johannes Greber and his translation of The New Testament. They have quoted him at least nine times in their publications dating from 1956 to 1983.

Seven of the quotations were of a positive nature and were used to support the Society's translation of certain biblical passages (such as John 1:1).

The other two were negative in that they exposed Greber as a spiritist who relied on the spirit world to help him translate his New Testament.

In typical Watchtower fashion, the Society got as much mileage out of Greber as possible and when their hand was exposed, they sanctimoniously tossed him aside.

It all began in 1956 in the Watchtower. Greber was revealed as a spiritist who translated the New Testament with help from God's spirits. The article says, in part:

"Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of this translation of the New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: `I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty-eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God's spirits. The day came, however, when I involuntarily took my first step toward such communication and experienced things that shake me to the depths of my soul...'

"In keeping with his Roman Catholic extraction Greber's translation is bound with a gold-leaf cross on its stiff front cover...Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes helped him in his translation" (15 February).

Exposing Greber as a spiritist was certainly the right thing to do and, in fact, was consistent with the Society's teaching on spiritism over the years.

In the 1965 edition of the book, Make Sure Of All Things, Hold Fast To What Is Fine, they say, "Practice of any form of spiritism brings divine disapproval" (p. 469) and, "Destroy objects related to spiritistic practices" (p. 470).

In the 1968 book The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, they say, "One of the ways that wicked spirits mislead men and women is through spiritism...The Bible warns us to keep from every practice associated with spiritism... God condemns every kind of spiritism" (p. 61).

Finally, in the 1978 booklet Unseen Spirits, Do They Help Us? or Do They Harm Us? they write, "In ancient Israel God commanded that anyone who practices spiritism was to be stoned to death" (p. 30); and, "According to his inspired Word, Jehovah God hates all such practices no matter what form they take or on what continent they are found" (p. 31).

And finally, "If we want Jehovah's friendship and protection, we must break all connections and associations with spiritism in its many forms. That includes disposing of any objects that relate to spiritism" (p. 41).

It is obvious that they know the dangers of spiritism. But as indicated earlier, that is not the whole story.

Just six years after exposing Greber as a spiritist, the Society acts as if they never did such a thing and, instead, they reveal Greber as a biblical scholar ( a much needed biblical scholar) in support of their own New World Translation (NWT) rendering of John 1:1.

It was 1962 when the Society introduced a new booklet entitled The Word, Who Is He? According to John. They quote Greber's translation of John 1:1. as "and the Word was a god" (p. 5) instead of "and the Word was God."

The footnote reads, "The New Testament - A New Translation and Explanation. Based on the oldest manuscripts, by Johannes Greber...edition of 1937, the front of this bound translation being stamped with a golden cross."

So there is no mistake about it, both the 1956 Watchtower article and this booklet are using the same edition of Greber's New Testament (1937 edition with the gold cross on the front cover).

In the 1956 article, Greber is a spiritist, but from this point on they are off and running with their newly found biblical scholar, Johannes Greber. In fact, 1962 was a very good year for the Society to quote Greber, the biblical scholar, as they also quoted him in the September 15 Watchtower (p. 554).

He is then quoted in the 1965 edition of Make Sure... (p. 489), the same book in which they warn against practicing spiritism.

Then at two places in their reference work Aid to Bible Understanding (1971, p. 1134 and 1669) and, in two later editions of the Watchtower (15 October 1975, p. 640 and 15 April 1976, p. 231).

This continuous inconsistency was brought to the public's attention in the early 1980's as cult researchers discovered who Greber really was.

Various individuals began to write to the Society asking where they might obtain a copy of Greber's New Testament. Even though the Society knew the address of the Johannes Greber Memorial Foundation as indicated by a letter dated 20 December 1980 from the Society to the Foundation, they gave bogus addresses and sources for his New Testament.

In a letter from the Society in December 1981, they gave one inquirer the address of a building that was no longer in existence. In a letter to this writer in September 1982, they suggested inquiring of the American Bible Society in New York.

It was obvious the Society was involved in a cover-up. They did not want their readers to know who Greber really was.

In a certified letter dated 6 October 1982 (received by the Society on 12 October 1982 according to the return receipt) this writer informed the Society of the Foundation's address for future reference. Therefore, it is not surprising to find in the Watchtower under "Questions from Readers" the following:

"`Why, in recent years, has the Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?'

"...as indicated in a forward to the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, this translation relied on `God's Spirit World,' to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages. It is stated: `His wife, a medium of God's Spirit world was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God's Messengers to Pastor Greber.' The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism." (1 April 1983)

The Society knew all along that they were dealing with a spiritist, but being desperate for sources that supported their own NWT, his translation became a valuable asset to the Society, giving birth to the cover-up.

According to this answer, the Society did not realize Greber was a spiritist until they obtained the 1980 edition of his New Testament and read about it in the forward. In essence, they are saying that the 1937 edition did not reveal this information about Greber.

Their tampering with the truth can be demonstrated by comparing this answer with what they wrote about Greber in the 1956 Watchtower.

In addition to what the Society revealed about Greber in that article, the introduction to the 1937 edition states: "Whoever, then, seeks to know what is true and what is untrue in the Bible as we have it today, can find out only in the way in which all God-fearing people in the past have sought the truth, namely by communicating with God's spirit world.

"In the rare instance in which a text pronounced correct by the divine spirits can be found in none of the manuscripts available today, I have used the text as it was given to me by those spirits."

Obviously, the Society had at their disposal enough information to determine that Greber was a spiritist and they said as much in the 1956 article.

Could it be that the Watchtower Society has been dishonest?t) this writer informed the Society of the Foundation's address for future reference. Therefore, it is not surprising to find in the Watchtower under "Questions from Readers" the following:

"`Why, in recent years, has the Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?'

"...as indicated in a forward to the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, this translation relied on `God's Spirit World,' to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages. It is stated: `His wife, a medium of God's Spirit world was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God's Messengers to Pastor Greber.' The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism." (1 April 1983)

The Society knew all along that they were dealing with a spiritist, but being desperate for sources that supported their own NWT, his translation became a valuable asset to the Society, giving birth to the cover-up.

According to this answer, the Society did not realize Greber was a spiritist until they obtained the 1980 edition of his New Testament and read about it in the forward. In essence, they are saying that the 1937 edition did not reveal this information about Greber.

Their tampering with the truth can be demonstrated by comparing this answer with what they wrote about Greber in the 1956 Watchtower.

In addition to what the Society revealed about Greber in that article, the introduction to the 1937 edition states: "Whoever, then, seeks to know what is true and what is untrue in the Bible as we have it today, can find out only in the way in which all God-fearing people in the past have sought the truth, namely by communicating with God's spirit world.

"In the rare instance in which a text pronounced correct by the divine spirits can be found in none of the manuscripts available today, I have used the text as it was given to me by those spirits."

Obviously, the Society had at their disposal enough information to determine that Greber was a spiritist and they said as much in the 1956 article.

Could it be that the Watchtower Society has been dishonest?

The Bible condemns spiritism, but about his comment regarding the New World Translation, are u saying its wrong to quote a person if his statement doesnt violate Gods law ?

or are u saying everything a person said should be disregarded once such a person is not a Christian ?

honestly, I dont understand ur unsolicited rant, there is lady on this platform, an agnostic i think who have seen really explained bible verses well even more than most of the so - called christian, infact she has destroyed many peoples argument using just the bible. she is saying Fact at times despite being an agnostic.

solite3:
go back and read my post, I was not neccesarily condemning older manuscripts but only affirm that it cannot be used to discredit the rendering of rev1:11kjv only because they don't have alpha and omega in them.scholars based their assumptions on current available manuscripts, I bet you if they find another older manuscripts that agrees with textus they will change their view .

oga, why are u scared to let them know the name and history of ur organization or church ?

brocab:
Lets hear what the JW's have to say about this verse.
This must be one of the most favourable scriptures in the bible, One short passage that claims Jesus being in the form of God.
{Philippians 2:5-7} kJV "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taken the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
{John 1:1} Did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

Dogmatism has really affected ur thinking ability, why dont u see that this verse is translated wrongly ?

LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU , Wow , then We too should count it not robbery to claim equality with God ?

OLAADEGBU:
Are you calling God a liar?



"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

It is true that Adam's body returned to the dust from which it was formed but the verse above also says that the spirit of the person who dies does not actually die even though the molecules of the body disintegrates back to their basic elements the spirit actually lives on. [size=25] The spirit was sent from God into Adam's body in the first place, [/size] and therefore is still under God's control when the body dies. Your decision determines your destiny.

haaaaa, see lie, @ bold

show me where the Bible said so ?

Barristter07:
Solite3



Solite3 , with regards to your statement above , ... Which was made in your response to dolphinheart.

the authorised version actually refer to the holyspirit as an ' IT ' @ Romans 8:16

"
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God "




do u agree with the most Trusted authorised version that the holyspirit is an " IT " ?

chai ! where is solite3 kjv defender

OLAADEGBU:
Read your Bible to have the big picture.

stop telling lies, this man .. simple truth, Adam is dust and to dust Adam will return - Gen 3:19

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

this verse proves Gen 3:19 is correct, the dust ( Adam ) shall return to earth as it was.

the spirit is the breath of life in his nostrils not a conscious being.

abeg, following ur crazy dogma it mean everyone will go to heaven since all spirits whether good or bad will return to God ?

truth is light ... set urself free from the bondage of Babylon

brocab:
Yes, do you have a spirit?

hahahaha so the holyspirit is the God of Jesus. what did u drink ?.

pls tell me , who exactly is the God of Jesus Christ ?

brocab:
How many times do we answer your questions and still none of you understand them.
Jesus has a God , I have a God, the angels have a God, we are all called sons of God.

good! Jesus then is not the supreme being.

Richirich713:
Oh thats not what I mean, I'm talking about the greatest possible being, u said supreme, so I thought we talking about the perfect being.

yes, am talking about the supreme being who have no God, infact all other beings in heaven and earthn are subjected to his universal authority

Well u said the supreme being, so I'm assuming the supreme being is perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving.

I thought love can only exist between two or more persons?

remember we love simply because he first Loved us. that sud tell u the supreme being himself is Love . 1 john 4:8

Richirich713:
So what did u think trinitarians meant by God? "Greatest conceivable being".

the supreme being cannot be conceived. this is where catholics err making mary the mother of the SUPREME God.

Is he all-loving?

i dont see how this correllate with the discussion

Richirich713:
This is what I'm talking about, the trinity teaches God is one, it never says anything about three Gods or three beings.



Evens if they called him God, most unitarian still wouldn't believe his God.

oga, stop confusing yourself.

when I say God , am talking about the supreme being of the Universe.

Thats the God of Jesus , he doesnt have a God .

Richirich713:
How can there be one God and three co-existing persons?

Because God's not human, humans beings are unitarian beings, they can't be more than one person. I don't believe the greatest conceivable being must be a unitarian being.




If God were exactly like humans that would be the case, but God is not like human's, he's greater than humans in all properties.

there is a basic truth that even demons can't deny . God ( the supreme being ) is just one not three in one. James 2:19

they know this, that is why u will never see them addressing Jesus as God , rather they call him Son of that God.

the trinity doctrine is a fat Lie.

Christ Jesus is not equal to his father , infact the Father is not just his Father , he is also the God of Jesus !

brocab:
Don't argue with me, read the scriptures, and if you still refuse to believe, then question yourself if you are truly Christian.
The word of God does not lie.

Why cant u answer that scriptural question? Because u are not sincere, and u know answering will expose you

WHO IS THE GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ? EPHESIANS 1:17

goodnews201668:
So you are trying to say Adam is in hellfire now?

Not at all,my point is Adam Is not in any fictional hell. Gen 3:19

Its Olaadegbu that introduce another lie that gen 3:19 only Means Adams body.

OLAADEGBU:
That verse only talks about what happens to his physical body - the second law of thermodynamics. It does not address what happens to Adam's spirit body.

So the " YOU " is just body not ADAM. ?

Ur lies can dry the ocean , just continue

[quote author=solite3 post=45845197][/quote]Solite3 said
" THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE BOTH JEHOVAH "
do we have two Jehovah ? emphasis on both

solite3:
the pharisee understood what Jesus was saying. Jesus didn't deny it.

you are a liar , Jesus never said I and the Father are one GOD !

[quote author=solite3 post=45844827][/quote]a lot of friends here reading our chats are having good laugh at ur irrationality.

show me whats contradictory in the fact that while phil 2:6-7 speak of Christ ministry on earth, 1 Cor 15:28 emphasised an event in heaven.

[quote author=solite3 post=45844413][/quote]human nature in heaven ! Jesus still have intestine, blood, flesh, lungs, liver, male genital in heaven ?


ARE YOU OKAY?

solite3:
is it now u are waking up OK start with John 10: 30

"I and the Father are one " john 10:30

he didnt say I and the Father are ONE GOD , u failed again

solite3:
hmm that shows your shallowness. Philippians 2:6-7

Philipians 2:6-7

" who although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration, namely, that he should be equal to God. NO , but he emptied himself and took a slaves form and came to be in the likeness of men "

this verse speaks with reference to Jesus ministry on earth. NOT his been subjected to God in Heaven. u failed again.

[quote author=solite3 post=45843046][/quote]show me where the Bible said the Father and his son ARE ONE GOD?

solite3:
u are confusing Christ human nature and his divine nature Christ in his divine nature is one with the father only his humanity will be made subject

where is this written in the Bible ?

solite3:
As a man when he is through with the work of salvation will be made subject to God

thats the point @ bold! the Son will be subjected, revealing he is not the highest authority - 1 corinthians 15:27

thank you.

[quote author=solite3 post=45810028][/quote]

Jesus Christ will be subjected to His God and Father as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:28 , do u agreeeeeee ?

solite3:
do u even understand what he was saying?

yes I do

so answer him , dont dodge ur lie.

john said he should search those words at where ?

solite3:
John 17:5 Jesus is speaking about the glory he was yet to receive.

to receive from who ? will Almighty God receive glory from anyone ?

John 17:22 he is speaking about the glory he had at that present time.

that he was GIVEN, isnt it ?

can the Ruler of the universe be given glory ? use your thinking ability

Two different things

i see you are scared to answer me : Jesus Christ will be subjected to the authority of His God and Father, do u belive this ? 1 cor 15:28

solite3:
u re only good at misquoting people, he never said it is in the Bible. It may not be in the exact way he puts it but the message he passes across is clear n it is in the bible.

this your drama is making me love this thread the more.

answer his question : john said the statement should be searched for at where ?

solite3:
u do err Jesus and his father are both one God.John 16:15 All things that the father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Here Jesus was claiming ownership of whatever his father has.
Again chech this Luke 24:26
[color=#770077]Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into[b] his [/b]glory[/color]
Was Christ given this glory before? Check this John17:5
And now, O Father , glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was here Jesus is saying that he had been having the same glory together with the father, [size=26] he didn't say the glory that was given to him. [/size]

" have given them the glory that you gave me , " John 17:22

see your life .

again , Jesus will be subjected under the authority of his God and Father ( 1 cor 15:28) , do u belive this ?

solite3:
so u don't know that Jesus is the ruler of heaven and earth

Liar ! 1 Cor 15:24-28 , Jesus rules by authority of his God and Father.

the Ruler of the universe doesnt need the authority of anyone to rule. have u ever heard of the Father been given authority ? use your brain

and will continue to be forever

vomit it ! 1 Cor 15:28 , Jesus will hand over the kingdom to his God and Father and will subject himself under the authority of Jehovah, his God and Father .