₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=48078.msg7025809#msg7025809 date=1288192678]Pastor and Awo,

. . . . just popped in to pay my respects to you guys. Ibaa o! Great wisdom, GOD Bless you guys!

I love Ifa in its entirety, its unfortunate that some people fail to see it as the true religion of mankind and the order for the cosmos. Those people that were raised with it are indeed fortunate. I wasn't that fortunate, I was raised on the Quran and Arabic and Torah. But since becoming adult I have educated myself on the Bible and and other books of divinity. Still I thank GOD for returning to me to the true path. The Torah, Bible and Quran have all led me back to the religion of Abraham and his fore fathers; IFA![/quote]Don't you think the spread and "success" of Christianity and the Abrahamic Religions is due to the proselytizing elements they have. I mean, -adherents are encouraged to spread the faith, sometimes at the pain of death.

I'm not aware that Ifa has that kind of injunction, at least not on a macro-political scale like we have with Christianity, Islam and Judaism.  Your thoughts?

Where is Pastor AIO and the other Awo?

You all need to keep updating this thread. . This is amazing!!

Like Pastor AIO said, I'm not an Ifa initiate or student, but I'm very interested in and curious about my Yoruba religion, culture and history.

I sincerely believe that retaining the spirit and some of the values inherent in our culture is vital for our development. Powerful empires rarely attain greatness on borrowed languages, cultures and philosophies, a glance at history or even the current G8 Nations will tell the story better.

Pastor AIO said

Irete meji is an odu that talks about hitting rock bottom and coming back up again.  The theme of Death and resurrection is strong in this.  It is also this same process that is parallel during initiation which is a death and rebirth too.  Ifa is said to spend 3 days and 3 nights under the earth before it re-emerges during the initiation.  This same process can be portrayed as orunmila falling into a hole, or a well.  Other times it is portrayed as throwing the Ikin (ifa) away into the sea, or into a lake.  After 3 days it is miraculously retrieved. 
In short, it talks about loss and recovery.   Sometimes it is portrayed as a child losing contact with his parents and then one day being reconciled back to them

@ Pastor AIO, The possible parallels between the Ifa story you alluded to[the bold quotes] and the belief by some Christians that Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in hell/hades after his death and before his resurrection is mind boggling to me. Any more thoughts?


"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" Matt12:40

Maybe these beliefs are all connected to the same religious "life-source" but in different ways . . .

honeric01:
This is confusing, is odudua a male or female or is this odudua different from oduduwa?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/yor/yor03.htm

Don't be confused.

I suspect that site was setup by folks influenced by Diaspora Ifa/Yoruba Religion. I must confess, a lot of them do great work and are more passionate about Yoruba History than most Yoruba's that I know.

BUT, they get the history, names and roles wrong sometimes due to the syncretic nature of the Ifa diasporan religion which is why we sent Prof. Wande Abimbola to put them right.

Oduduwa is male.

Read about Baba Wande Abimbola here http://www.wandeabimbola.com/


For more knowledge about Our diaspora people and the great influence Yoruba Culture, History and Religion has across the world read Professor Olupona's book --> http://books.google.com/books?id=bZD-1kObnMQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=globalization+of+yoruba&source=bl&ots=zddosmy760&sig=kvdDP0TOBu6VtGfaYuXdmrDnmSA&hl=en#v=onepage&q=globalization%20of%20yoruba&f=false

It's not exhaustive but it's a good start. . .

Side note: Wikipedia is a good source of information, yes anyone can do a temporary edit but always look to the links and references below the page for authenticity.

@PhysicsQED great analysis! thanks for sharing bro.

EDIT: for google books link

ziddy:
Bola Ahmed Tinubu is de facto leader of the Yorubas already, whether we acknowledge this truth or not.

Soyinka does not merit it, like someone already pointed out. Yes he speaks truth to power at all times, but he spent the hottest years of military repression in exile.

The Aare Ona Kakanfo never backs down! Either he wins the war or he dies at the battlefront. That description fits Gani Fawehinmi, fearless as lion and honest to a fault. Gani would have been the perfect candidate.

Soyinka went into exile for a period and he was not docile in exile, he formed PRONACO and Radio Kudirat, The Ekiti's probably have him to thank for mentoring Kayode Fayemi at Radio Kudirat. Soyinka kept coming back Sir he did not run away at all.

Even you cannot deny Soyinka's bravery, but as stated in Lagbaja20's long as*s post and by others here, the new Aare should be symbolic, Soyinka qualifies.


Funny guy, Bola Tinubu will probably slap you for that statement in bold. . .

^ Thank you for the link! There are some Wild claims on that thread, I enjoyed reading it though. Too many NL Toponymists and etymologists on there Lol.

I've observed that we tend to see similarities across cultures, language and religion if we look hard enough, at least geologists believe we all lived on the same pangea super-continent before plate tectonics caused a split.

I won't dismiss or accept the wild claims yet. Obviously humans didn't drop from the sky and there must have been some long distance movements. The devil will be in the details. . .

But I can easily embrace all these origin stories. I doubt we will ever discover the truth but, for me, they all point to the rich historical heritage of the Yorubas and the evolution of their rich civilized culture.

@lagbaja20, good post.

^^ Baba Wande Abimbola "The Awise Awo Agbaye"  will be a good choice but I'll prefer him as the official custodian of Yoruba culture and Ifa religion.

If Yorubas form a country today, Wande Abimbola should be the natural permanent representative to Gbogbo Agbaye (UN) 

If the Ooni were to be chosen by popular democracy, My vote will go to Wande Abimbola

^Actually that's true, the Mansa Musa myth said he journeyed to Mecca abi na medina, but that took years though.

I know history said the Oyo Empire had a well developed calvary force. I assume they bought the horses from Arab traders in the North because I'm not so sure the thick Rainforest of southern west Africa had an horse friendly topography then.

So how did the Yorubas acquire a religion of their own and created Ifa and the Odu's if they were from Islamic or Judaic Arabia?

Or do we have evidence of linkages between Ifa and the Abrahamic religions?

dayokanu:
Oduduwa might have lived in Mecca at a time when Islam was not in existence there

It might be before the separation of  the African-Arabian tectonic plate because I can't imagine how they can trek from Mecca to Ile-Ife or even Congo.

We need more tectonic researchers here, Dayokanu, I thought you are into geology or something related to that, Oya, laa ye wa ka gbo

ola olabiy:
^^^^
Funny you.

LOL, No be true?

lagbaja20:
I tried reading it in college
I found it too boring
Isnt Ake his autobiography uptill age 11? whats spectacular about it?

LOL, I found a lot of great writers boring in college also.

I read Ake before college and it was a great read. You can try Isara or Ibadan; the penkelemes years if you don't want to read about his boyhood. I still think Ake is his best memoir though. For me, it's between Ake and You must set forth at dawn, I choose Ake.

BTW, I really don't recommend reading Soyinka in a hurry or with a deadline or school paper ahead of you.

[quote author=oyinda. link=topic=576442.msg7430203#msg7430203 date=1293653356]I don't consider him to be a coward either. In fact, he was the only one I could think of that champions Yoruba culture.[/quote]He sure does! but not the only one, kudos goes all those authentic Orisa worshippers in the diaspora too lol

ola olabiy:
^^^^

Ok. But, Alaafin appoints the Aare Ona Kakanfo. The generalisimo!

Yes he does.

The Alaafin = Political head

Ooni = Spiritual custodian/head

They should embrace those roles, they are both important and needed.

I will argue that those different roles and duties are a testament to the depth, quality and complexity of the Yoruba Civilization. We separated "church" and "state" before Thomas Jefferson.

Katsumoto:
There isn't much evidence to support the position that Oduduwa came from Egypt, Sudan or Saudi Arabia as suggested by some historians including Egharevba. The account by Oba of Benin (Erediuwa) appears to be more logical.

Points
1. Oduduwa trekked from Mecca to Ife in 30 days (is that really possible)
2. Too many inconsistencies with regards Oduduwa's origin (Egypt, Sudan, Saudi)
3. After the death of Ogiso Owodo of Igodomigodo (Bini), there was no new Ogiso because his only son escaped after being given a death sentence
4. When Oduduwa got to Ife, there were Yoruba people from Ugbo of Ilaje origin there as well. The ruler was known as Oreluere and there are oral traditions that support at least 5 rulers before Oreluere
5. Following the death of Ogiso Owodo, there were reports in Igodomigodo that his heir was sighted in Ughoton. The Edion (elders) then sent a search party after him until they got to Ife.
6. Oduduwa confirmed that he was Ekaladerhan but that he couldn't return to Igodomigodo as Ife was his new home and he was too old to travel
7. Oduduwa promised to send his grandson only if the Benin chiefs could pass a test which they did. Chief Oliha was the leader of the delegation
8. Oduduwa sent Oranyan to Benin and there are no reports or accounts that suggest that Oranyan conquered Igodomigodo
9. Oranyan was in Ile Ubinu for a few months (and not decades as stated by someone). If he was there, then he would have been King but it was his son Eweka who became the next king after the last king (Ogiso Owodo)
10. Oranyan would become the first Alaafin at Oyo Ile


The only way the people at Benin would have accepted a grandson of Oduduwa without being defeated in a military campaign is if they accepted the right of Oduduwa to the throne. I agree with you that since the monarchy at Benin derived from the King at Benin, then Benin should acknowledge the superior status of Ife.

.

Good added points! Thank you!

Is now up to our Bini relatives to accept the facts of history and complete their search or search no more. Ile-Ife is their spiritual home, The home of their lord, progenitor and King.

Erediauwa Omo Noba Nedo Uku Akpolokpolo should do the needful and bring his subjects under the cultural and spiritual authority of Ile Ife. Oduduwa (Ekaladerhan) will be proud.

Oduduwa trekked from Mecca to Ife in 30 days (is that really possible)
2. Too many inconsistencies with regards Oduduwa's origin (Egypt, Sudan, Saudi)

I too have issues with the Mecca-Arabia origin story, my suspicion is that some section of the old Yoruba nation migrated from an Islam influenced region of Africa and the real story got lost or embellished due to the limitations of oral history.

lagbaja20:
Interesting, i was actually thinking of Wole Soyinka as well. Although, during those Abacah years, he went on self exile, a sign of cowardice IMHO. the Aare, even the modern day one, must not show cowardice, no matter what. That said, he fought them the best way he knew how . According to the folklore as recounted by Yoruba elders, the Aare Ona Kakanfo is expected to die a warrior in the defense of his nation in order to prove himself in the eyes of both the divine and the mortal as having been worthy of his title. And that is one of the reasons, Abiola refused to accept the conditions of his release from prison. Irrespective of how you want to look at it, Abiola was the 'modern day' 'war general' of his people.


I would have personally preferred Gani Fawehinmi or Bola Ige, but they are no more. Gani never ran from the military. He faced them, and despite the inhumane treatment meted out to him, he never wavered in his convictions, that to me is bravery, same can be said of the Cicero as well.

At present, not sure who deserves it. Politically, Tinubu would have been the right person, but his personal life and rise to fame are not things to write home about. Beside his recent political achievement, he is, in other spheres of his life, a disaster.

And you my friend would agree with me that there is no way in hell I possibly would know, or have at my disposal, the profiles of the past Aares. They were crowned when oral tradition, as against written record, was the order of the day

I agree with a lot of your points. Left to me, I will give it to Soyinka in the absence of Gani Fawehinmi or Bola Ige.

Like Oyinda. pointed out, the modern Aare will have to be symbolic though, like Akintola and MKO Abiola's title were, he'll have to be a defender of Yoruba cultural traditions and an active participant in the progress of the Yoruba people and Nation.

Within the present realities of Nigeria, we obviously do not need a real "war general" we are not fighting a war (yet) and we don't have an army, the symbolic qualities of the Modern Aare will have to stress other criteria which I believe Soyinka adequately meets.

I understand Soyinka went into exile for a while during the Abacha era but I honestly cannot accuse the man of cowardice -between his alleged hold-up of a state radio station at gunpoint plus his role during the Biafra crisis especially his efforts at conveying Victor Banjo's message to then Lt. Olusegun Obasanjo during the war and his Radio Kudirat movement plus his constant efforts at speaking truth to power- I will rather call him brave.

I think the Alaafin should give it to Soyinka of Aké, Unfortunately. I'm also convinced Soyinka will refuse it.


Obasanjo = Who is he? Mtcheew!

Tinubu = Not right now, He needs to keep working hard. He's got a lot to repair.

Limaoscar:
@ Kilode,
My response was directed at DayoKanu who already responded to my post.

That's fine, I responded because I had bones to pick with your post.

I do understand your reasons for the sharp reaction and I do understand that we probably have our mandates from different sources. As a Christian and a representative of God on the earth, It is my responsibility to pray for our leaders/EX LEADERS. I have enough sense to understand that I cannot judge another man when i am not the one who put him in power.

Thank you for understanding, we obviously don't believe in the same "God"

The Christian God I know does not tolerate injustice though. I do not believe he pats evil, murderous rulers on the back. I'm sorry but, I cannot wait for the day when your kind of belief will be wiped out of Nigeria or reduced to it's barest minimum. True accountable leaders derive their authority from the people sir not from some divine being. Leaders quickly become megalomaniac tyrants when we ascribe divine authority to them. No wonder OBJ said "I dey kampe" with followers like you why won't leaders become power drunk?

I also know that God's demand and mandate on me is to pray for these leaders and leave judgement to God.

^^ I honestly do not recognize the God you are speaking of over there, that must be a new religion you just formulated. I'm not in the business of heart changing prayers for murderous, corrupt, oppressive recalcitrant rulers, they are like sons of perdition. The creator gave us a brain and a sense of justice and morality to create laws to fix that so we don't have to bother heaven with prayers at every second.

I am not so sure this will persuade you though but this is my persuation as a Christian and[b] I believe this same view is shared by most believers and all those who honestly love our dear nation.[/b]

You are right, I'm not persuaded. I respect your belief but I don't share it. I disagree with the statement in bold though since I'm a Nigerian and I don't share your view and I honestly do not believe you love Nigeria and the People of Nigeria more than I do, therefore Not all those who honestly love our dear nation shares your view.

The Oyinbos who brought you Christianity judge their corrupt leaders at every opportunity they can find, they demand accountability and institute systems of governance that judge and sometimes sentence leaders to death for crimes committed here on earth. So, I refuse to accept your Christians "do not judge" position.

Before the Oyinbos came, our ancestors used to demand that leaders commit suicide or face banishment when they over step their boundaries or outlive their usefulness, after all, no Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life(John 15:13) abi no be so Pastor?

We threw all that away, picked up Oyinbo religion but ignored the spirit and philosophy behind it and you wonder why our societies are in disarray.  I judge sir, and I will like to be judged, it is called accountability. I welcome it. I mean, If we can't judge then why do we have courts and a justice system?

I  love your question about "how do we pray for such leaders". The answer is right here. Pray that God will change their hearts and turn their hearts towards him so they can receive, instruction from Him, rule in wisdom so that God's will and devine agenda for Nigeria will  be done in our Nation as it is in Heaven.

BTW, Leaders cannot HONESTLY be accountable  to man until they have totally submitted to God.

You mean we should wait for OBJ to get born again-again-again? LOL. We don pray tire make we try something else, I assure you God no go vex, Trust me I represent "God" too and he's tired of them.

I hope you will reconsider your position and join the "judge on earth" movement.

buzugee:
i think i may have a solution that will appease all parties. what is it that every nigerian loves to eat ? peppersoup. right ? what better way to honor an upper crust and imposing personality like the ikemba than to name our favorite food after him ? so next time you go to peppersoup joint just say, 'madam can i have a bowl of odumegwu' ?

ROFL

otumfour:
these 2 names, Accompong and Cudjoe
the Accompong sounds like the Ghanaian name >>Acheampong-an ASHANTI name
and CUDJOE is a Ghanaian name as well, Cudjoe is the name given to a Monday born in Ghana
In Ghana, we have names for all the 7 days, so a child is named after the day he/she was born,we call them house hold names

MALE
MONDAY- CUDJOE/KUDJOE
TUESDAY- KWABENA
WEDNESDAY- KWEKU
THURSDAY- YAW
FRIDAY- KOFI
SATURDAY- KWAME
SUNDAY- KWESI

FEMALE
MONDAY- ADWOA
TUESDAY- ABENA
WEDNESDAY- AKUA
THURSDAY- YAA
FRIDAY- AFUA
SATURDAY- AMA
SUNDAY- AKOS

I say, this thread's been 1 of the best so far on Nairaland

The Wikipedia entry for "Nanny the Maroon" actually said "The Maroons mainly consisted of people from the Akan region of West Africa. The Ashante tribe, from which Nanny came"

Otumfour, I suspect "Nanny" is a corrupted form of the Akan/Ashanti name "Nana" or what do you think?

MzDarkskin's post Reminds me of Wole Soyinka's tale about his search for an old lady who kept memories and stories of her family history from Africa. Soyinka went searching after he learnt about and her village in the Jamaican hill settlement of Bekuta (Soyinka belived it was named after his birth-city Abeokuta)

In his book You Must Set Forth at Dawn, Soyinka wrote that the lady was long dead by the time he got there and the village over grown with weed, her family only had a faint memory of her stories.

Soyinka said he spoke with the grand-daughter who said but "no one pay much time for that Africa foolishness. She only keep all that in she head, so when she gone, no one pay any mind to such things"

Wole Soyinka wrote that he felt "gutted" after hearing that.

Beaf abeg stop, e don do!

I don laugh tire for here

[quote author=Becomrich? link=topic=574674.msg7423851#msg7423851 date=1293568020]How many northerners go to igboland? none. It is only people who do not have money that goes to other people place and look for money. That why Igbos come to the north. The Igbos people are poor people. So Igbo media now use this fear of break up to scare northerners.[/quote]But Oga Becomrich, the Igbos wanted to leave Nigeria now, That was why they fought the Biafran war abi?

Why do you think Igbos are scared to leave?

If Igbos can make money in the North like you said why can't they make money in their own country?

At least according to you South Africa makes money without Oil. How are you sure the Igbos don't want to leave Nigeria?

AjanleKoko:
I wonder why people think Becomrich doesn't make any sense. His arguments sure make sense to me.

Actually, I agree with you. Becomrich does make a lot of sense from a sectional self-determination point of view.

His messages IMO are very consistent, at least since I started reading his post on here but, I can't stop laughing at the way he passes them across.

His constant posts and maps says a lot about that fine line between perseverance and insanity or maybe consistency and lunacy. Dude seems sensible to me most times but, funny still.

@Oga Becomrich, sorry sey i dey try psychoanalyze you o! I think you owe me that luxury since your post made me pour some hot drink on myself,   

[quote author=Becomrich? link=topic=574674.msg7422195#msg7422195 date=1293549279]I would get 98% of the ijaw to vote for a yes vote they want to leave Nigeria. Or Can Jonathan dare to take me on this issue. ? he better not try. If i get less than 98% , the united nation should give Jonathan a gun and I alone Jonathan to shoot me infront of Obama and television camera if I get less than 98% of ijaw yes vote to leave Nigeria. he give me a bullet and I go and join God in heaven. I sign that paper. If they can bring the paper infront of me, I sign now.[/quote][quote author=Becomrich? link=topic=574674.msg7422283#msg7422283 date=1293550205]i am telling. i am ready to take a bullet to my head, if Jonathan ijaw vote No, that they are not leaving. I would put my head down infront of Obama and CNN. And take that bullet to my head. If I get less than 98% YES. they should load a gun and give it to Jonathan infront of CNN and He should kill me on live television.[/quote]Becomrich!!!!!! Aare Ona Kakanfo of Nairaland  

This guy just dey make me laugh for public like craze person. . .  

andyanders:
@Kilode?!
I LOVE YOUR COMMENT. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT WASTE OUR TIME HERE BECAUSE OF LOOTERS WHO DOES NOT THINK GOOD ABOUT NIGERIANS

Thank you. Looters are acting true to nature, our own job is to keep protecting our peoples interests.

dayokanu:
So if people celebrated Abashes death why should anyone attempt to stop them from extending the same hand to OBJ whenever he dies

Because a lot of my people are oppressed by their religious and cultural beliefs, their minds captured in an invisible bondage. . .

dayokanu:
I remember that day too, Ife was closed because a rally/riot was planned for Kudirat on June 4 and another one for June 12.

So authorities closed down the school to forestall that. They called it "Mid semester break"

See as people erupted in celebration at the news of Abachas death

LOL I chopped awoof biscuit at my favorite store that day too. Festac was agog with celebration! It was like xmas in June.

Funny though, a lot of people were initially cautious, folks were so scared of that piece of poo and his goons that they were initially very careful.