KingEbukasBlog:


The Richest countries is the world are Christian-dominated countries so what is this one saying ? Do you know that cherry-picking is illogical ?

www.cnbc.com/2015/01/14/the-religion-of-millionaires-.html

The richest countries in the world also have the highest number of unbelievers in any god.

In terms of stats you are talking about cultural stats.
Please Google religious decline in the western world and see the rise of unbelief.

But let's look at this from a logical angle

Christian Czech republic with a 60 percent Christian population and over 30 percent non believing population is actually getting its prayer answered more than Christian Kenya with an 82.6 percent Christian population.
France even gets more answered prayers than super religious Nigeria.

Are you not seeing a contradiction there ?

With the rise of so many anti religious values in the western world and the embrace of religious beliefs in Africa shouldn't the fortunes be the other way around.

Depends on what you describe as a creator.

If you mean an inanimate powerful particle responsible for the expansion of time and space, then no the universe can't exist without a cause.

Before the beginning of time and space there must have been some existence in the form of powerful subatomic particles. It's possible that their interactions caused the expansion of time and space what we know as the big bang.

If you mean a personal, intelligent, human like creator then the answer is yes. The universe can exist without that cause.

All the classical laws of physics and quantum mechanics can predict stellar motion and modern astronomy. Everything in the universe looks like its patterned after the aftermath of an explosion. There is no intelligent pattern in the universe. If we use earth as an example then we forget that earth is just one planet in one solar system out of possibly trillions of solar systems. There are habitable planets that have been discovered but not explored. Earth is in a habitable zone of our star and there are many planets in such zones scattered around the universe.

The most complex thing in the universe is DNA. That's where the biggest mystery of life lies.

For the christards talking about the efficacy of prayer.

Lets compare religious Nigeria with Atheist Japan

1. GDP - Nigeria [ $484billion] , Japan[ $ 4.412 trillion]

2. GDP per capita - Nigeria[ $2640] Japan [$34871]

3. Human Development Index - Nigeria [ 0.514 (low)] Japan [ 0.891 ( very high) ]

4. Income inequality (gini ) - Nigeria [ 43.0 ( medium)] Japan [ 37.6 ( medium)]

The funny thing is that Japan's population is just 127 million while we have around 170 million people here.
That means we have at least 40 million extra prayer warriors. Such a huge failure of prayer.


Prayer has no power apart from the placebo effect which makes us feel better when we pray. But am sorry peeps, placebo effect has no effect on national development that's why I used two countries as an example and we can see the result.

The defence for the average Christian falls into 2 categories ;

1. Christians don't pray enough and lack faith - I don't think Nigeria lacks prayer. We have the great mountain of fire within us. We pray on any and every occasion. Concerning faith, out of 80 million Christians you can't tell me we won't have at least 1 million faith filled Christians. Even if its 1 Christian with faith its enough because prayer involves you inviting your mighty god to the party not you literally doing the work yourself. In 56 years of our independence you can't tell me that no faith filled believer has tabled Nigeria's case to his god and received a good response.

2. Its not Gods will - you can say that for a request for a Ferrari or a prayer to be a president of a country. But consider a country like Nigeria, why is it against God's will to prosper us.

@OP

The book of genesis is not one book but a combination of 3 books.

Biblical scholars call the 3 writers J,E and P.

The story of Cain picking a wife to marry was written by the second writer. The contradiction is present because the person that wrote the story didn't write it with knowledge of the prior story.

That's why it seems like a contradiction.
Jewish scholars compiled these books during the babylonian captivity thereby forming the pentateuch.

If you want to take the book as real and inerrant, you will wrap your head around it so much that you might have a headache.

You have 2 options;

1. Take the story as real and don't try to understand it. Pray that the holy spirit will make you accept it as true without doubt and live your normal Christian life.

2. Accept that the story is clearly wrong, research on the origin of bible to understand the errors, thoroughly read and study the bible and the Christian religion. But know that when you go down this path and find the light, you can never be ignorant again. When your mind has been illuminated it can never be darkened. Most likely you will cease being a Christian if you go down this path.

So OP you have two choices, accept truth without evidence or find the truth with evidence. But remember that the truth doesn't know you or care about you so the truth can be anything even beyond your wildest imagination.

Tellemall:
Stop quoting.

I've stopped reading quotes from this thread.

I do not wish to continue further arguments.

You guys(atheistic hard-pressed to reason black African contraptions and all other associated hangers-on fueled by pseudo-education and lacking the right measurements for what they hate but cannot explain, who are still feeding off the wisdom and knowledge religious people and will continue to do so until Christians redefine science and squash their stupid Hawkins inspired brainwashed state) aren't logical.



Warning! You are talking to yourselves henceforth.

Atheism is dying! Currently on life support!

Yea right, no be only life support

Go and rest, delusional christard bounty hunter waiting for a golden mansion in the sky while also trying to avoid a boiling pit of fire.

Bye bye

For religious people , they authenticate god when it feels good to them. The unspoken methodology is it feel right then its of god. But they don't understand that their immediate environment determines their feelings.

Let's look at dejavu, if neuroscientists didn't define that process many humans would have seen it as a real mystical phenomenon.

Let's look at falling in love or infatuation. When you fall in love with someone, you get the feeling and conviction that you guys are meant to be and the relationship must work but the truth is eventually revealed and most times the truth debunks our conviction.

This same emotional convictions is what religious people use to authenticate their god. Due to their ignorance, they usually take it as a true sign and symbol of the right choice. They foolishly think that other religious people don't have a strong enough conviction. Muslims think their inner conviction is deeper than Christians and vice versa. Christians think Hindus and Buddhists are jokers that purposely rejected their one true god because they lack the inner confirmation of truth.

Religions are like people living in a block of flats. They cook, go to work, sleep, eat, party and basically do everything in their own flat, but they ignorantly think no one occupies the other flat, they don't realize that all their rituals , beliefs and hopes are also mirrored in the next flat.
Sometimes you wonder how this phenomenon occurs. In reality, every body usually accepts the fact that their neighbours are human like them and are also have feelings, aspirations that are similar to theirs. But in religion, that realization isn't there, you see Christians hating Muslims not realizing that they are so close to the Islamic religious belief. I think religions achieve this by 3 methods ;

1. Demarcation of the mind- this is done by preaching and promoting blind faith and trust. Religious people are taught not to question their beliefs from childhood there by keeping them in their mental compound of belief. It's similar to telling your 5 year olds not to get close to the gate or walls. You do that because you want to ensure that they remain indoors due to their age. But religions do this even till adulthood. The demarcation is eternal for religions.


2. Obsfucation. They do this to protect their beliefs from foreign threats. They stereotype every differing belief system before it is given a chance to be considered
Christians have a stereotype for every belief system
By doing this, they win the minds of believers before a battle begins.

Religion is just like shepherding or cattle rearing. You have to keep your livestock together in order to milk them. No wonder Christianity uses the good shepherd theme. The ironical thing is that no matter how nice a cattle rearer is to his cows, they exist for one purpose which is to be slaughtered for a profit. Religious people are livestock in a ranch and they are protected in order to protect profits

Tellemall:


Smh.

Get to meet real scientists and stop your pseudo-educated babble.

Science is education. Everybody is educated.

Until you understand that your mental limitations will keep dragging you into gullibile assumptions about theists who have contributed to the science you so much revere, you will continue to post like you've just done.

Good bye. Your atheistic ideas aren't sound when they are put under scrutiny.

This is my last ever post on anything religious that has to do with pseudo-educated blacks that claim to be atheists. For example, you. You're mentally retrogressive.

You religious people, do you ever stop to listen yourselves. If logic was a thread you guys would have wrapped yourselves up to the point that you would look like a mummy.

Let me address your weak points.

1. Science is education, everybody is educated.

I studied biology in secondary school and got an A1 in waec.

Will you entrust your injured brother to me just because I learnt the basics of biology.

Is education not in cadres. So in your mind there is no difference between a biology student and a cardiologist, no difference between a 100 level physics student and a career astrophysicist working for NASA, am also sure in your mind there is no difference between your friend that is a graduate of economics and a deputy governor in Nigeria's CBN, is there a difference between my sister that has a Bsc in accounting and a former registrar of ICAN, am sure there is no difference between a charge and bail lawyer and a SAN. My friend stop disgracing yourself, everyone might have some level of education but all levels of education are not the same.

Coming to religion, your basic knowledge of science that doesn't debunk the bible is nothing compared to that of an astrophysicist who is certain that the universe can't be 6000 years old, your basic knowledge of history is nothing compared to that of a career historian who can document the similarities between all world religions, your basic knowledge of geography is nothing compared to that an established geologist who knows the earth can't be 6000 years old and who also knows the earth is definitely spherical not flat like your bible says.

2. Theists contributed quite alright, they still contribute today but the world is moving away from long held dogmas and beliefs in religion. This shift is strongest amongst those that observe the world [ scientists] that's why there are more atheistic scientists. But you can't grasp that simple fact.

3. Your religious ideas are so weak that they are divided into 30000 denominations and over 100 world religions. No religious belief is strong enough to be seen as the only true one. Religious beliefs are so weak that they thrive on regions and childhood brainwashing to propagate themselves. That's why most religious people inherit the religions of their parents. Atheistic beliefs are much stronger and are grounded in real observable science, history and philosophy.

4. As usual, the christard runs when he sees superior arguments. Run and watch from the sidelines cause you don't belong here. Go back to your blind faith and trust which gives you the eternal conviction that your belief is true. But know that the day you step out to examine your beliefs in the light of reason and truth, you will have no other option but to do what you just did which is run like a chicken.

Tellemall:

The deeper you go the more you ascribe these wonders to God.
You are one of those black Africans who think that all people of the western world are atheists because they are educated and have unraveled what you think are the mysteries of God.
You're wrong.
Science and religion can never be compared. So all you atheists can stop trying to use science explain away religion, when religion metaphysical. One is physical and one your science can't even explain.
Science is simply a standard of education. It is attainable to all men. It is not equivalent to disproving God.
If you want to do that, use metaphysical evidence. You are trying to measure Angstroms with a specimen in a Petri dish. Use the right apparatus.
I'm done with the ones who say they're rational.
Naijadeyhia, kingebukasblog and all of the nice Christian posters, please, don't mention me on these religious threads with atheists.
They aren't the most logical people you will find. Neither are they intelligent. Their rationality is limited to the things they can attack because they are scared of the others.
Imagine a situation where atheists say witches don't exist, but they are told how to meet them and they refuse to because they actually believe in them and are scared of them(I don't have time, more arguing without addressing all questions to them or quietly ignoring posts). These are the same people who subscribe to collecting data and behaving as if everything must be tested and proven, when they are scared to test and prove things except swallowing the scientific research of others. Lol. A funny bunch.
Until the atheists here take on investigation they remain the epitome of frustrated Christians with a scientific educational background.
I used to take their main man as an intellectual, until he proved himself to be merely armed with a data subscription.

Let me address your points one by one

1.The deeper you go into science the more you find that religions have the most ridiculous concepts of god. The best belief of god one can have when going into science is the belief in a deistic non interfering god, thats the only belief that makes sense. The anthropomorphic personal god that most religions believe in is a joke and source of scorn in scientific circles.

2. I dont think all the people in the western world are atheists in fact the USA has a religious population percentage of 80%, but in the western world, the deeper you go into science the less likely the retention of your religious beliefs. Please help yourself and google religious belief amongst western scientists and see the discrepancy and diversion from mainstream percentages. The western world didnt unravel any mystery of god instead they unraveled natural phenomena that were usually ascribed to the interference of a deity and they have done it on a much larger scale than we have thats why they are less superstitious and more atheistic than us. But they are in no way totally free from the scourge of religion even though they are just a few decades away from total religious anninhilation.

3. You said science is physical and religion is metaphysical but you fail to understand one thing which is the fact that the metaphysical science paved way for the physical sciences. The physical sciences have replaced almost all branches of metaphysics. Philosophy led to logic and logic to mathematics etc. The only remaining discipline in metaphysics is philosophy, all the rest have been replaced by the physical observable sciences. Who uses metaphysics to cure diseases when you have modern medicine and biology, who uses metaphysics to predict famine and prosperity when you have modern day macroeconomics and microeconomics, who uses metaphysics to aid movement when you have newtonian physics/mechanics. Please tell me who depends on metaphysics. Its only religious people that cant see that metaphysics has evolved into a more advanced and productive specie which is modern science.

4. Science is a discipline that involves bringing hypothesis, testing with experiments, discarding the failed hypothesis and promoting the successful ones to scientific theories which have been proven to be very useful in making the world a better place with technology that we could only dream of a century ago. Everything is attainable to all men when they invest their time. Science wasnt created to disprove god but it accidentally stumbled upon facts that debunked ancient religious beliefs. Thats why many inventors of the middle ages were catholic priests, that was at the infancy of science when it had not yet debunked every claim in the holy books, unfortunately for religion, science has grown so much that it has debunked most religious claims using its sub fields like archaeology, chemistry, history, astronomy, physics etc and thats why you find a higher percentage of atheistic sciences now than in the middle ages.
Science can disprove god, you know why? Religions stupidly presented their facts in logical, theoretical, verifiable human language. If religions had stayed in the realm of meditation it would have been better for it, but due to their political power in ancient times they ventured into the real world. Now that science has grown, most of its outlandish claims like :
A. Geocentric earth
B. Demon theory of disease
C. End time predictions
E. Divine cause of weather
F. Divine supernatural power of believers

Have all been debunked by observable science thereby proving religion to be a lie.

Science is like that cctv you install in your house to monitor your infant child but little did you know that the cctv will discover the thief that has been taking your money and jewelry. Science wasnt created to disprove religion and god but unfortunately for religion and fortunately for the world, science has debunked, disproved and rendered it so powerless in the western world.


5. You talk about atheists being stupid, lets compare stupidity. We present arguments that make you jet off in anger and you claim we are stupid. But you religious person, apart from using weak arguments that arent even arguments but appeals to emotion and blind faith you also display your stupidity in church. Now lets analyze things that you will most likely do in one months time that are definitely stupid

- You will most likely be in church blabbing in gibberish syllables and calling it a heavenly language.
- You will give 10% of your income with the hope that it will defend you from unnecessary financial burden and also with the hope that it will give you your desired prosperity. The funny thing is that if you were to settle down and observe you will find out that none of those claims have come true, you most likely experience financial difficulty on some bad months whether you tithe or not, your financial growth definitely will not show any spike in improvement because you tithe but because you grow in knowledge and experience of your chosen profession.

- Religious people have been documented doing stupid things like; eating grass in a church service(kenya), being fooled by staged miracles, sowing their tuition fees as seeds for prosperity, committing mass suicide at the behest of their spiritual leader, receiving lashes of cane in public, being involved in suicide bombing.

My brother we atheists might be dumb as you claim but we dey learn work where una dey, religion is outright stupidity. Religion is also supported by the most unreliable emotional quality we possess which is blind trust.

6. As you talked about witches, its not only witches that exist, we also have bush babys, madam skoi skoi, big foot, leprechauns, elfs etc. We believe you, are you satisfied?

Tellemall:


In your null set mind, you believe that Christians aren't scientists. That's why you're explaining of all things extrapolation. You think that because you don't think there is a God that it has automatically made you more rational and logical than theists.

Your epistle is over something that highlights the stupid way atheists regard religion. If you can't see God he doesn't exist. If you can't see the data for yourself it doesn't exist, going by that "rationality".

You are delusional for believing that atoms exist when you have never seen one. You are delusional to think that theists are deluded.

Continue extrapolating.

I'm sure it will explain a lot of life to you.

Oh Christians are scientists quite alright but in this modern day, the percentage of Christians reduces when you go deeper into the scientific fields. Even the Christian scientists are very much the liberal type that don't take all the bullshit in your story book serious.

I don't just think that there is no god. I came to that conclusion by considering facts from fields of rational thought like geology, textual criticism of the bible, astronomy, biology, history, archaeology, anthropology and most importantly basic LOGIC. Christians could have arrived at that conclusion if they followed this path but their minds are too lazy to consider all the necessary facts that's why you guys are still stuck in the religious mental prison.

Vision is not the only way humans perceive things. We don't see air but we feel its effect, we don't see diseases but we see their effects. Coming to your god Yahweh, I don't see him, I don't see his effects or should I say I don't see anything occurring that can be specifically traced to him and not other gods. There is no measurable alteration of reality that can be solely traced to your god the same way you can not make the rock in my backyard the sole cause of the events in the world.

Sorry my friend, even electrons have been seen with high powered microscopes so atoms are not even an issue. But before we could see them we could see the effects of their existence.

Pleas bring tangible evidence of your imaginary friend Yahweh.

Seun I like the concept of being outspoken but I don't believe that we can save a reasonable percentage of adults.

Many Nigerians are too far gone in their beliefs. The problem with them is not indoctrination but mental laziness. No matter how indoctrinated you are in your beliefs , a dedicated month of research can open your mind up. But as the saying goes " if you want to hide something from a black man, put it in a book".

Our fellow Nigerians are too lazy to read. They only want to use social media, they hardly read long essays or articles, they only want to groove and take selfies. The average Nigerian in this generation does not have the energy to even think deeply and critically. There are few exceptions, our outspokenness can only help those few that are interested in knowing but have never been offered a rope or lifeline of knowledge.

Atheists being outspoken will help the next generation. Thats the most important thing. If the next generation4 can grow up in an environment where religious criticism is active then there is hope. The good thing is that the kids below 10 years are read it stuff we never did during our childhood. Most of them are using smart devices and can use Google well. Many of them are growing up in a liberal society where parents are giving kids freedom of speech not like ours that raised us in a military way.

All I can say is lets keep the fire burning and never let religion have a free pass in our lives.

Tellemall:


It doesn't change the fact that you're operating on extrapolation.

And that that guy believes in the data from Kepler Space Observatory being the ultimate info.

Atheism is stupid enough, we don't need more stupidity.

Is extrapolation not logical. Extrapolation is used in physics equations, equations that have helped in creating modern vehicles and combustible engines.

In science there is nothing like ultimate info just verifiable,concrete info. Such info can change when methods change and new facts come to light.

Its you religious people that think in terms of ultimate,final, supreme etc always trying to use psychology and an appeal to authority to enthrone petty pseudoscience as truth.

You know what's greater than your religion? Mathematics

Anytime any day, mathematics can provide much more verifiable and trusted facts than your useless prayer and religion. Mathematics is trusted by petty traders, physicists, biologists, economics etc they use it everyday, they use quadratic formulas, algebraic theory, basic algebra, trigonometry and these methods never fail them.
But your religion and its useless prayers are as useless as praying to a stone, few prayers work, most dont, most are delayed. But you still hang on because you are scared of an unverified hell that you can't provide proof of, the only proof is by blind faith. Is it not a fool that will take blind trust as real evidence.

So tell me between the rational atheist and the delusional Christian who seems more stupid.

Nice post. The sad thing is that religious people can't see that this gods quality is purely human and man made. The clues litter their holy books.

If only religious people could just look at the contradictory claims in their holy books. I

There are 2 possibilities to consider when considering any religion.

1. The religion is true and is this only way to the true creator of the universe. All the claims are true and perfect. The only seeming contradictions are as a result of human frailty.

2. The religion is false because it is man made. But it is not even made in an instant by a particular man but it is the work of thousand of years of philosophical accumulations, adaptation to prevalent social conditions, popular tradition, mythology etc. The religion was triggered by a revolutionary but evolved and grew into its present state. Just like an open source software, it is first built by a developer but left open for anyone to modify and update.

Looking at this 2 possibilities, if you are to pick the first possibility them so many questions will arise , questions that lead to other questions that lead to a logical dead end. If you pick the second option, it answers all the questions and leaves no holes. It might not answer the questions of life and existence but at least it will give a satisfactory explanation for the existence of religion.

Christianity is like Mozilla Firefox or the Linux distro, these software's were created by a singular entity but they have been left open for modification and update.


Religion is not a one time revelation of truth but a continual process of developing philosophical and cosmological beliefs.

The only issue with it is that it uses a faulty method to reach truth. Instead of making claims and testing them, religion makes claims and the claims branch off into another sect. In religion truth can exist in 1000 different ways which in itself is a fallacy. In religion 2 + 2 can have over 1 million answers.

Tellemall:



"Data".

Which of your science gods told you this? The Kepler Space Observatory? They did extrapolation? You believe in extrapolation of abstract concepts you have never seen?

You actually believe this without seeing the data and collecting it by yourself? You are being deceived by your scientific leaders. That science must not be real, it cannot exist.

Lol.

Why must you Christians publicly display your ignorance and small mindedness.

Am sure you dont believe the human cell exists because you haven't used a microscope before. Am sure you don't believe crude oil is drilled from the ground since you haven't used a drilling machine before or worked on a rig.

What if gold, have you excavated gold before? How do you know where it's really gotten from?

Have you seen the spherical earth before? Am sure that means that the earth must be a flat disc like you can observe with your eyes.

Coming to astronomy, people use telescopes which are like gigantic binoculars. Telescopes that can process light coming from trillions of miles away. In case you dont know, light has a speed of 300,000km per second in case you are wondering how light from faraway galaxies gets here.

Just because these facilities don't exist in our Nigerian universities doesn't mean that they don't work or the theories learnt from them are false.

The person that believes in modern astronomy is hundred times saner than the person that believes in talking snakes, talking donkeys, pregnant virgins, parting oceans and all the usual Christian drivel. The person that believes in astronomy has much more tangible proof at least he can observe telescopes and see photographs while the Christian only has his blind faith.

You should have just simply asked how we know they are 100 billions galaxies instead of stubbornly insisting that its wrong.

We know the number of galaxies because we can observe them, if you use a telescope and you have the time you can literally count 2 million galaxies with your eyes . How do you know we have over 100 billion cells in our body? Well if you have the time and you use a microscope you can literally count 2 million cells in your finger nail.

So please brother stop embarrassing Christians. The believe in a dead Jewish rabbi that happens to be the sacrifice for your great grand fathers sins is ridiculous enough please don't add to it. Christianity is stupid enough we don't need more stupidity. Let sleeping dogs lie.

beautyoftheLord:


Hmmmmm! IT IS FOOLISH TO YOU. Oh! Your frustration, I can feel it. The exasperation, it must be exhausting for you. But absolutely no need getting yourself all worked up. You can never understand till you see the light. For now you dwell in darkness. The father of this world is your father. Have you ever seen a case were darkness over shadows light? Never! No matter how dim, the light must still glow. But hold on, what business has light got to do with darkness? Absolutely nothing. IT IS FOOLISH TO YOU and will remain FOOLISH.

Oh yes you can feel my exasperation. I am really exasperated.

Have you worked in a nursery school before and tried to ensure the kids maintain order, try that and know what exasperation is. You christards are like kindergarten kids, we keep showing you the way but you prefer the folly of your childish ways . We have to repeat the same thing over and over again but still it doesn't sink into your dense brains.

I definitely am blind to the light of insanity, I used to see it but I don't want it again.

The way you christards talk its as if you guys have a special spiritual code that only you guys understand , but you still end up referencing that 4000 year old book with 66 sub books.

You still end up referencing the verses in that book. In the end it's nothing special. But am sure you will use the normal excuse of having spiritual insight to understand the archaic verses even though ironically the verses are still written in plain human language and logical constructs.

Don't worry you also need spiritual insight to understand why 2 + 2 is equal to 8. If you don't have the spiritual insight you will never see how 2 and 2 add up to 8, believe first and you will have the insight.
Idiotic scam

I don't believe in your disgusting ancient tribal Jewish deity and you think I would believe in his adversary.
Food for thought, do you know jews don't believe Satan is God's enemy but only a worker for god that tempts people. If you had sense you would read the OT and see that Satan was never an enemy but often appeared before god to get mission briefings. But you can't understand that because you are a Christian, your religion is plagiarized from Judaism.

So take your disgusting Yahweh and his horrible enemy Shaitan or Satan and shove it up your deluded ass.

Your religion will always remain the darkness, it thrives on blind faith. Please is blindness not synonymous to the dark.

Christianity is foolish to me cause the proponents adore blindness and stupidity.

lele007:
Ah, LiberaDeus, how can I deny that I do not see your logic? It makes sense, period.

But.

Recall that there were people who believed in Jesus before they saw a single miracle. All they needed was for john the baptist to point him out: "See, the Lamb of God!", and they followed him. Then there were the Nicodemus types, WHO WOULD NOT HAVE BELIEVED IF THEY HADN'T SEEN MIRACLES. Nicodemus came to him secretly, because he'd probably criticized him publicly, saying "I know no one can do what you do if it isn't God, but I'm confused" (I paraphrase).

Now here's the thing. God wants you to believe without seeing any miracles, but he has provided for miracles and supernatural signs as well just in case. Jesus said, "believe me when I say that I am in the father and the father is in me, OR AT LEAST BELIEVE ON THE EVIDENCE OF THE MIRACLES THEMSELVES" (John 14:11). I think it is impossible, for anyone who doubts or disbelieves there is a God, to try and carefully and without bias, study claims of supernatural miracles, be it healing or some other manifestation, who will not come to the conclusion that there is life beyond the physical realm.

I suppose you are not familiar with the "Scole Experiment"? You can google it if you truly want to test for the truth about what is out there; I highly recommend it just for your academic stimulation (but take note that what you see there are manifestations of what scriptures call demons, though the experimenters and scientists themselves do not know it).

Bottom line, i believe (sorry) that if an atheist or agnostic, with a truly unbiased mind, calls out to God, he will get satisfactory proof. Because there is so much that God has provided which is not attributable to anything else other than supernatural/superhuman intervention, available in the world today, for the precise purpose of proving that what God says in the Bible is true.

And I dare say there is more to being a Christian than just being afraid of hell. Ha ha!

Oga the bible doesn't want you to believe without signs. It is unscriptural.
Jesus wanted Thomas to believe because he had seen signs and wonders.

Jesus even gave his disciples a great commission and told them to perform signs and wonders

In the book of acts of apostles, Paul performed miracles that converted many. Him and silas broke out from a maximum security prison miraculously which led to the conversion of the jailer.

When Israel began worshipping Baal, Elijah made fire come down to convince the Israelites that Yahweh was greater

When Yahweh met Moses he gave him the sign of the burning bush and many other miracles.

Yahweh parted the red sea to convince the Israelites.

I can list many other examples to show you that totally blind faith is not biblical.

The only unfortunate thing is that all the aforementioned stories are mythical. But if they were true and your god was real then its clear that he wants you to show signs and wonders to convince people not urge them with blind faith.

I am an agnostic, if I call out to god with an unbiased mind I will receive no answer. But you can bring tangible proof that shows that it's your god that is the god of this world.

beautyoftheLord:


See what I mean? You guys just keep on proving my point. I will say it again. It is Foolish to You. If it really bothers you, don't relate with any Christian, it makes your burden lighter.

It is foolish because it is foolish period.
Don't try and pretend that under the foolishness is a whole new world that only the chosen fools can see.

beautyoftheLord:

You know, I was once like you. And I am confident telling you, till you see the light. If you never, too bad. Point of correction. I never said so, the Bible did. It will continue to be invalid to you till that day. My advice from experience, stop trying to understand some certain things cause you never will.

You were never like anyone. Stop deceiving yourself
That's like me saying I was once an adult but now I have seen the light in childishness that's why I have shunned adulthood.

We can understand and predict stupidity but we will never share in it again.

Talking about understanding, please go to a psychiatric hospital and see that you can never understand insanity.

No matter how hard you try you can never know what it feels like to be stark naked in ojuelegeba bridge and still feel confident. We can predict insane behavior but we can never share in its thrills.

The funny thing is that all freethinkers have been as delusional as you are and we actually can remember how it felt to be like you.

The difference between us is that we chose to take a detour in the mental prison of religion. We took the detour of reason.

While you guys keep ignoring reason even though it keeps tugging at your brain.

We took that detour and found freedom and you have the audacity to tell us that we don't understand while we actually broke away from the prison that you are currently serving a sentence in.

But unlike normal prisoners, you happen to love your incarceration. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Please look at the links below instead of making careless claims.


http://www.inquisitr.com/2539980/atheist-beliefs-in-america-2015-pew-poll-atheism-religion-spiritual-church/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/


If the links are not good enough for you
Please type " rise of atheism" in google or type decline of Christianity and see the results.

Please stop posting apologetic materials and videos and calling them facts.

As long as world HDI continues growing and educational levels, access to internet and other positive indices that affect knowledge continue increasing then atheism will continue growing.

Religion is like a vampire that's scared of the light . The mythical vampire is so powerful in darkness but becomes totally helpless in sunlight.

You know what the light is in this situation?
Scientific knowledge
Increasing income levels
Vaccines against diseases
Greater explanations for natural phenomenon

All these indices combined together are like light that shines through a dark alley where the vampire of religion dominates. This light crushes them.

Read about church closing in Netherlands. Almost 700 churches are closed annually in Netherlands. The light of development pursues the hideous bogeyman called religion. The funny thing about it is that religion is powerless without its victims and their donations, imagine churches being closed because there is a scarcity of gullible people to milk.
Religion just like fear is made very powerful by its victims. Religion and a belief in god is totally useless and powerless until you give it power by accepting it in.

Remember the scripture in John where Jesus says "behold i stand at the door of your heart and knock, anyone who lets me in I will never cast away"

In reality , it is fear and ignorance standing at the door of your heart and knocking.

To prove that, why would god require your blind faith and subservience to something when he has given you a brain for thinking. Fear disguises itself in nice costumes


costumes range from a good shepherd Jesus costume to a last messenger Muhammad costume to a son of god Krishna costume.

But the fact remains that those are human constructs created by deceitful, cunning and evil people, those constructs are sent to your mind in the form of evangelization, war etc the moment they gain control they will continue propagating in your generation just like viral marketing.

That's why a charlatan like Joseph Smith who was disgraced publicly has 20 million global followers. Most of his followers are in a state in the most powerful nation in the world. That's the power of fear especially when you allow it in your mind.

The good thing about all this is that the light of truth is coming out now.

There is a Congolese lingala proverb that says
" locuta eyaka ascenseur, verita eyin escalier mpe ekomi"
It means - lies can take the escalator but truth will take the stairs and still get there.

The lie of religion took the elevator and has held man captive since we formed settled civilizations going back 9000 years ago, the truth has been there always but it has been slowly climbing the stairs.

But now the chickens have come home to roost for the stupid useless petty lie of religion. When the truth climbs the top floor and meets the lie there, religion will have no choice but to recede into oblivion. We are at the beginning of that time, the truth has climbed the stairs and its almost there , it will soon knock on the door of the roof, religion can't keep it out forever. The truth will finally prevail.

beautyoftheLord:
This is a classic example of 1 corinthians 2:14-15. The worldly person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to him and he is not able to understand them because they are to be spiritually discerned. The Spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by No One. So true Christians ignore the o. p. He is carnal minded and can never, I repeat never understand anything. O. P quit wasting your time, God is and will always be higher than you. You can never understand his ways until the hour you are called into light. Only His true children do, cause He is their Father. Clearly He is not your father, so till your waking moment every move and act of a true Christian will be stupid to you. Some of us understand your dilemma. High blood pressure is real. Just go about your life.

There are verses like that in the Quran talking about how unbelievers are blinded and can't see the light. In Buddhism we also have the unenlightened.

In every religion, the followers are praised as chosen people, people with the revelation of god, a lucky people etc

With such logic, truth can never be determined .

You can continue covering your ears and eyes and deluding yourself to believe that the imaginary romantic relationship you have with your loving powerful great supreme creator is a proof of his existence.

In the end you can create an emotional bond with anyone or anything just like the whole world does with all its gods. But when it's time to claim reality you must bring tangible proof.

Every move and act of the Christian in line with his blind faith is stupid for the rational because it is stupid.

The difference between the christian and the non christian is that the Christian believes in an anticlimax where his/her stupidity will be shown to be wise at the end of days while the non christian sees the stupidity as plain stupidity nothing more nothing less, no anticlimax, no eternal vindication of stupidity, no chariots in the sky coming to save Christians from a fallen world.

In the end of it all, Christianity will die a normal death and humanity will go on, study of Christianity will be like the study of Latin, study of dinosaurs, study of Pompeii etc. It will studied like a relic cause that's what it will be in 300 years time. Other religions have come before yours and they all went the same way, even those that lasted way longer than Christianity.

If you Christians can just try and look at your logic nd reasoning you would know how ridiculous you sound.

Mr. A comes with a claim about something

Mr.B says he needs evidence to believe

Mr. A says he must believe that thing is true first before he sees the evidence. Not just believing that it is true for a while but believing it consistently forever.

Now lets examine this scenario

You come to me with a claim about Jesus and your god. I ask for proof and you tell me to believe and that's when proof will be available to me.
Lets say I agree and I now believe for just a while lets say 1 week. I believe wholeheartedly but I don't see proof , then I come back to you for proof and you tell me to never stop believing cos that's when I will see proof.

Can't you see that you are not actually offering any proof but belief now stands in the place of evidence. Belief is not evidence, anything that stems from prior belief is not evidence. That's why its better for you Christians to come out honestly and say that you want people to believe without evidence but just because of the fear of hell.

This is called circular reasoning.
What you are doing is offering me a bet on the afterlife. I should bet on a position with nothing more than confidence or blind faith. In reality, over 4 billion people are also taking their own bets with other gods with just insufficient proof. You Christians are no different.
When you argue with a christian, initially he brings little proof but when you throw more light on it and nail him to an indefensible position, the only thing the Christian can do is to appeal to your blind faith and also threaten you with hell.

Am sorry christards am not a gambler . In life I take calculated risks not ridiculous bets.

DoctorAlien:


Jesus is the only Person who gave up His life to save you from the damnation which was rightly yours for breaking GOD's law.

Jesus is the only Person who bids you come as you are: no matter how vile you might think you are, or that men think you are, Jesus promises to wash you whiter than snow.

Jesus is the only Person who knows how hard it is not to sin, and promises to help you in your struggle against sin.

Jesus is the only true Friend, whose words are always true.

Jesus is eagerly waiting for the day you will be finally reunited with Him: He is not just sitting in Heaven indifferent.

Jesus is the only Person who promises to be with you and help you in your race towards Heaven. He will not leave you to do it alone.

Jesus is the only Person who rose from the dead, and whose resurrection is your hope of living again after death.

Why not accept Him today?

Please permit me to question your points

1. Your first point that Jesus have up his life for me to save from damnation. Please how do I deserve damnation? I haven't done anything evil to anyone. And if you say that the little I have done is deserving damnation, whose fault is that? You also claim that this Jesus and god father created me . Is it my fault that I was created imperfect. I don't know any animal created perfectly so that's clearly not my fault.
And please what's the proof of this damnation you day awaits everyone. Its just a claim till you provide proof. The Hindus claim what awaits us is reincarnation while you claim damnation. What makes your claim different from theirs.

2. As for Jesus telling me to come as I am. Firstly , you said Jesus tells me, I didn't hear him, see him, the only thing I know is that his messengers say that. But even if Buharis aide tells me he has a message from Buhari, I think I will believe him because I can verify by looking up pictures and videos of him with Buhari. How do I know that your Jesus is real3, how do I know you are not an impostor, there is no proof that you know him or have met him save for your claims and we all know talk is cheap. Are you to believe that I have a message from Bill gates because I just said it, won't you want to verify it?

3. Concerning helping with sin. I believe your definition of sin is human social and moral wrongdoing. Well sorry but Jesus is not the only person to claim to be able to free me from wrongdoing. I wonder if you have heard of Siddharta Gautama, he was a great teacher in northern India and lived 500 years before your Jesus allegedly lived, he is also known as the BUDDHA. He put out some nice teachings and methods to live a blissful and pure life and from what I have seen, his followers seem to be living a peaceful life. Am just curious , but why would I believe Jesus has a greater power to free me from wrongdoing than BUDDHA has? You have any evidence for that?

4. You said he promises to be with me in my race to heaven. Firstly, you haven't given me proof of heaven so am not yet interested till I know what you are saying is legit. As for companionship, I know quite a few channelers and they claim to be able to open your eyes to spirit guides. I also know that Hindus claim that Vishnu and Krishna are always there with them. Muslims claim that good angels are always guiding you. So that claim that Jesus is the only one willing to help is not very accurate because so many other people are offering spiritual help. You can check that out yourself.

5. As for resurrection. Horus resurrected, Krishna resurrected, Dionysus resurrected and countless others claimed to have resurrected. So once again your claim is not the only one. Can you bring proof of life after death. And if I have hope of life after death , must it be with Jesus, can't it be with Horus, dionysus, Krishna etc they all seem to make very juicy offers.

The thing is, am not interested in any offer cause none of them ever bring any tangible proof so how in the world can man know what is right and wrong? Telling me that it is written in your holy book is not compelling cause it is not the only holy book.

DoctorAlien:


Don't you want to live in a world where there is nothing that will make you sad? Don't you want to submit to the Person who understands all your fears and challenges which you have in your heart, and can help you overcome all of them?

Why don't you accept Jesus Christ into your heart today and feel the joy and happiness which He alone can impart?

I would really want that. Even though its not everything that I desire that i can achieve.

I also desire to not have been a Nigerian at birth

I also desire to date Gwen Stefani and Rihanna

I also want to be able to fly by myself not a plane but fly like a bird

I want to be able to read people's thoughts

I want to be able to control time and go back in time and right my wrongs

I want Chelsea to win this year's champions league

I want Nigeria to win 2019 world cup

I want to be able to command 3 million dollars into existence

No matter how badly I want those aforementioned things, it doesn't affect the probability of them coming to reality, the best my want or desire can do for me is to give me a clear strategy on how to achieve just the achievable ones.

No matter how badly I want 3 million dollars, if I am to make it legally then I must be willing to be subject to forces like discipline, knowledge and other things that can help me achieve it.

Its not impossible for me to make that amount of money But it's impossible for me to bring into existence out if nothing now.

This just goes to show that constant wishing and desiring doesn't alter reality. The universe can't bend to my puny wishes.

But if you have the ability to give me what you claimed not all my crazy wishes, please give me a sample with proof. Cause someone else advertised Allah to me, I also remember reading about Brahman being able to give me peace.

Why should I follow Jesus? What makes him different from them?

DoctorAlien:


"...Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Cor. 2:9

See also Isa. 64:4.

So bro, things greater than automobile and electricity will be in Heaven.

Hmmm
i ask for proof of these greater things I guess I will hear " it's written in the word of god".

Just know that a sentence in an ancient book is not admissible evidence but can be part of a body of facts and evidence.

But the sentence alone is as admissible as my claim that I am the richest man in the world.

I guess if I told you that you will believe me, if you doubt me I will just demand that you accept it by faith cos only when you accept it by faith will you be able to feel and know that I am actually the richest man in the world.

My thought in this is that the Apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.
In biology, the pattern a tree or animal grows in is dependent on the design in the seed.

In institutions whether religious, educational etc, they will always grow after the motive of the beginners. They hardly deviate from that purpose.

Lets look at Christianity which I m well versed in its history.
The primary purpose of Christianity is to bring personal salvation. The sad thing about it is that there most likely was a Yahshua who was a rabbi and gave deep moral messages that influenced some of his followers. It is likely that his teachings were more of a judaic reformation not judaic destruction that the later followed ascribed too.

But like most of this movements, the original purpose can be easily swept aside by a greater force that would like to hijack it for more sinister purposes[ think of boko haram]. The real shapers and beginners of Christianity weren't the immediate disciples of Jesus but Paul and his disciples.

When Christianity was hijacked for Pauline purposes, the game changed. It started as a judaic messianic and reformation movement but it was hijacked by hellenized and romanized jews. It was now rebranded and presented as a global salvation solution not judaic.

The issue comes when one is to look at how that transformation occured and how it was accepted. The only way it could be accepted in the midst of so many competing mystery religions in the Roman empire was by marketing.

That's what Paul and his disciples did.
They first had to remove the stumbling blocks and difficulties in Judaism.

They had to lower the bar for prospective Yahweh worshippers. They made do with circumcision, the book of Galatians covered that. They had to make do with nutritional restrictions. They made do with all the mundane mosaic laws by talking of justification by faith. Please read the gospels and see whether at any point Jesus talked of making do with the law. That was never on the cards for Jesus and his followers.

But Paul had to appeal to mans laziness and abhorrence to difficulty.

The second thing they had to do was to offer moral absolvence from sin, they also preached eternal glory, eternal wealth and most importantly they completed the carrot and stick approach by bringing the doctrine of eternal torment. All this was being preached while half the Roman empire was enslaved. Its almost impossible for the poor incredulous slaves to have resisted such a sweet gospel.

Christianity is not about repairing the earth, growing humanity or doing good on a large scale.

The core message of Christianity is that the world is messed up beyond repair and their lazy petty god isn't interested in repairing it but wants to destroy it and rebuild a perfect one with every possible thing man has ever desired - glory, good health, wealth, long life.
The very nature or dna of Christianity is selfish. It is about leaving every thing behind to achieve a hundred fold in the after life even though modern day Pentecostal preachers are now bringing those benefits and promises in this life.

Christianity is like the appeal a fraudster makes to a greedy person who wants to make a million overnight, with such an appeal the victim sees his 50k as meaningless compared to what he will get in return.

That's why there is no mutation or evolution of Christianity that won't breed selfishness.

Religion is really the opiate of the masses. It is the pillar of the intellectually and emotionally weak.

Heaven was first in the sky in old testament times that's why Yahweh didn't want the people in Babel to build a tower because he thought they would reach him and he confused their languages.

By new testament times , god was still in Heaven but in the third heaven which was higher than the clouds.

In modern times, the 3rd heaven theory ain't useful again, we have gone into space and even sent probes to Jupiter and no sign of life. We have surveilled the milky way galaxy ad other galaxies thanks to super telescopes like the Hubble telescope. Still no sign of any divine abode or group of angels unless you want to believe stupid Christian urban legends that claim scientists sighted angels using a telescope lol.

Now in the 21st century it is largely believed that heaven is in an immaterial realm that is beyond our physical senses . Something called the spiritual realm. The scientific proof according to Christians is that the full electromagnetic spectrum is not visible by the human eye. It seems convincing doesn't it? I wonder what ancient apostle Paul would think about that theory.

One question for the Christians , since the book of revelation goes into detail about the nature of heaven and the new Jerusalem and even the angels there,
Please are there automobiles in Heaven?
Is there electricity?

Hargbo:
10 million lifetime of yours cannot bring it down...Because you can't see air does not mean it does not exist...you breath it , you feel it and its work exist around you....

Hahaha, no be only 10 million lifetimes.

Read the articles below. Atheism is on a very fast rise. Religious growth is declining. In Europe , religion is on life support.

The funny thing is that its the most developed countries that are dumping it. The countries with low HDIs are the ones still grappling in it.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

Air is real, and who said we can't see air. We can see the molecules of oxygen, nitrogen and any other gas in air. Vision is not the only means of perception and am happy you know that. We feel air, we breath it, just put your hand near your nostrils and feel the air. You can even hear it, you can see its effects.

But coming to your God. The only claim you have is that we have intelligent life. But that's not proof of your god cause many others make that claim.

Plead give me tangible proof of your god and the claims in your holy babble.

Wilgrea7:


exactly... you seem to be driving at my point but you don't know.. I've read a few apocryphal books.. i understand the divisions in Christianity.. that's why i don't subscribe to a particular denomination.. you were right when you said people interpret scriptures in different ways just to set up their claims.. that's the same thing i said earlier. in most churches today, you'll find out that they've left the main teachings of Christ which is love and teach less important things like tongues, tapping glory etc.. i would still like to read more apocryphal books.. but I'm lazy nowadays. there are contradictions.. there are false things.. doesn't make the whole thing false.. that's why i said Christianity as pertaining to the bible and even the apocryphal gospels about Christ is different from what we see today... i try to follow God... not man

You get my point now.
But I don't care about the deviations now and I don't see the earlier versions as a model that people should aspire to.

Reasons being that early Christianity plagiarized Judaism and forcefully married its central character to the judaic messianic prophecy even though no prophecy literally pointed to him . It was a crude deviation and unlawful metabolism out of judaism. To top it all off, they absorbed pagan popular beliefs like virgin birth, resurection, divinity etc all in a bid to make it more acceptable for the time they were in[ Greco Roman period].

Early Christianity was a monstrous creation as a result of too much expectancy of some jews waiting for a messiah and also hellenization of these Jews. They created a messiah because they really wanted one. That creation has caused most of the issues the Jews have faced. They faced massive discrimination and persecution in Europe because the stain of being god killers couldn't be wiped out in the minds of Christians.
They have faced pogroms in the Christian world, the hate also got carried over into the Islamic world due to the Muslims respect for Isa and their disdain for his killers.

But in all this no one has ever analysed the over 50 messianic prophecies and proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Yahshua of Nazareth met them. That seems very unjust to the Jews. It was meant to be their messiah so I guess the world should leave them to discover or accept him.
Apostle Paul was a cheap skate that wanted more followers and power.
That's why with the stroke of a pen and the claim of divine revelation he could abolish the law and its hard regulations like circumcision, waving of hands, abstaining from unclean foods etc .
That very move was like the opening of the flood gates for new converts. It made it much easier for people to convert.

That's why when I look at modern day pentescostalism I just laugh . It's clear to any one who really reads the bible to see that they have changed the concept of early christianity all for a profit. They have misquoted scriptures in order to make them seem to be about prosperity when they weren't.

But I don't pity Christianity or orthodoxy because they did it to the ancient Jews. It is a religion built on lies, distortion and a desire for power. These lies will only produce more lies. So let them continue in their delusions. The religion will later die a slow death.

In this case , I can confidently say " throw the baby[ biblical orthodoxy] out with the bathwater[ pentescostalism] .

Wilgrea7:


simple truth is that, you can't... there are too many beliefs of the afterlife both within a religion and from different religions. one cannot be ignorant enough to say that his view/belief is the only true one and all others are wrong. take for example in Christianity we have purgatory, eternal torment, annihilation, universalism etc.. talk less of other religions.. hard truth is that, when you die, you'll find out.

simple as that.

Why is it hard for we human beings to just accept that we might not exist again after death. That seems like the most reasonable.

But accepting that is easier said than done. Death is too abrupt, too sudden and life seem too short.
But come to think of it, maybe we see life as short because we have been spending our energy trying to figure out how we shall live forever instead of focusing on the moment. Maybe if we focused more on the present we could suck out all the possible joy from a 24 hour day. Just my thoughts.

In my years of agnosticism, I have come to lose the fear of meeting any of the popular gods of religion. Its as if I am just sure that a god or creator won't be that petty to want to judge humanity based on belief. This position seems to the position that's strongest in my mind. These religions have helped to debunk themselves, they have given all the clues for those who want to reason, clues that show that they can't be correct due to their contradictions and if they are wrong in this life then a no brainer that they ain't even a possibility in the next if there is a next.

Wilgrea7:


I've spent 6 months doing research... I actually found out that the kind of Christianity in the bible is somewhat different from what many people are practicing today.. so.. i really don't know why you're saying its the same thing.. also, people can quote out of context to support their false claims.. it doesn't make the original context a lie

Then whose fault is it.
The funny thing is that Christians think division within Christianity started in this modern era, they couldn't be more wrong.

In the first century AD, the divisions within Christianity were rife and very deep.

Now Christians differ in petty issues like baptism, tithing, faith and sin etc.

Compared to the early Christians , they differed in issues like the divinity of Christ, the existence of the holy spirit, the marcionites even believed that the OT god was evil.

You can Google early divisions in Christianity and you will see for yourself.
You will find out about some major sects like Gnostics, marcionites, ebionites, paulinists, nestorians, Arians etc.

At that time, Christians didn't have a complete NT but they had an OT which has always been regarded as scripture.

They had gospels that talked about the life of Jesus even though on many occasions these gospels contradicted themselves. I am wondering if you have heard of the gospels of peter, gospel of Judas, gospel of Mary Magdalene etc. One apocryphal gospel that I find very interesting is the gospel of peter. You can Google it and read it .

Looking at the history of Christianity you will find out that the character of jesus that you refer to as the backbone of Christianity was agreed upon by the 4th century. So Christianity couldn't even agree on his character and his status.

Now lets accept the character of the real Jesus is what is in the gospel, look at the development of Christianity since the days of the Catholic churches dominance that led to atrocities like the inquisition, crusades etc and even look at the rise of Protestantism which should have been a good development but lo and behold they started going down the path of the Catholic church by getting involved in European politics[ Anglican and Methodist].

Then you can look at the rise of 20th century Pentecostalism which is the fastest growing sect. In it you still find confusion over issues like tongues, holiness, giving of firstfruits, tithing etc.

Can't you see that from the inception of Christianity till date that it has been a big mess.

You can allude to the real Christianity but in reality there is nothing like that. We have over 30,000 schisms in Christianity but the ironical thing is that the bible is largely harmonious amongst all of them. Apart from some differences in the Catholic bible, the bible across all denominations is basically the same.
So ask yourself where are these divisions coming from? They come from people interpreting scriptures in different ways .

The bible has nothing like a note or legend to tell its readers how to interpret it, the parts that should be allegory, fact etc.
The fact remains that if you give 200 people a bible to start practicing christianity and leave them to their own devices there is a high probability that you will have at least 50 different versions of Christianity.

So my brother biblical Christianity can't be defined in a particular way.

HCpaul:
You should instead call it the fabric of the unknown. There is nothing to fear in what you don't know, you should instead aspire to know the unknown.

That it is unknown doesn't imply that it cannot be known but just that it hasn't been known.

There is no fear in the unknown.

I understand your point.

But it is virtually impossible to know beyond any reasonable doubt the nature or existence of the afterlife. That is the curse of mankind, we have evolved to dominate the world and to fulfil our deepest desires but death comes when we might not want.

How can you ascertain what's beyond the line?

Wilgrea7:


bro... if i may ask.. are you talking about the kind of Christianity Jesus told us to emulate or just mainstream Christianity.. ?

I am talking about the Christianity that your holy bible prescribed for you.
The Jesus story with all the miracles, fables, death and resurrection was derived from your bible.
Mainstream Christianity derives from the bible too but like all institutions, adaptation and evolution occurs .

Please let's not differentiate them, whether it's what Jesus told you to emulate it mainstream, Christianity is a body of combined belief systems that uses the bible as its sole authority

Op I once heard this story but I never checked it out.
I heard it when I was in the shackles of the prison called Christianity.
One of the unspoken rules of that prison is to accept everything that strengthens your belief and never ever ever ask questions or scrutinize any faith strengthening story.

This thread just reminded me of it and in less than 5 minutes of googling it I found out that it was a popular hoax known as the "well to hell hoax".

The funny thing is that many christards are stuck in that mental prison without realizing that 5 minutes of research can debunk such lies. For Christianity as a whole, I will say one month of careful research can bring the walls crumbling down.

Hello All,

I don't want to start without declaring my belief system so no one will be misled. I am an agnostic.

I am creating this topic to present one of the most feared and darkest topics that religious and non religious would not like to ponder which is the possibility of an after life and what awaits man there.

In life I have come to accept one fact which is " our deliberations and anxiety hardly or never have an effect over a situation".

For example, think of deciding to take a HIV test. I did one earlier this year, one thing that is unique to all people willing to take the test is ANXIETY.

You deliberate and deliberate over the last time you had sex and whether you were safe, you even think of the last time you went to a barbing salon[ for guys] and the possibility of being infected by a clipper.

You even browse on the internet for possible symptoms and try to recollect if you have experienced any of them since you had sex. The ironical thing about all these deliberations and anxiety is that subconsciously your mind tries to use them to reassure and if possible remove the virus. It can be easier for the mind to be anxious about this issue and the mind creates levers of hope that it hangs onto.

The reality is that when you decide to do such a test, the result is in your blood stream in real time, your anxiety and worries doesn't change what's in your bloodstream, the lab techs just take a peek into what is already there and what is already too late to change. The same thing can be said about checking ones genotype, blood group, hepatitis status, kidney status and any other medical checkup. Most times you have no control over it, because you are only trying to check what's there already but it doesn't change the fact that you will try to subconsciously exert or rig the system with psychological levers.

Now coming to the crux of this topic,
Life after death or the absence of life after death is something mankind has no control over. We have heard of numerous people experiencing NDEs whereby they go to heaven see Jesus and even go to hell and come back.
The funny thing is that we can't use those experiences as proof of the existence of the afterlife cause on many occasions they are subjective to ones predominant beliefs on earth. There are hindi NDEs, Muslim NDEs and even Buddhist NDEs.

All the documented NDEs vary by large details within religions and comparing across religions. Most of them have a similar detail of seeing a very bright light but how true or universal can this be since a sizeable amount of them also fail to report seeing a bright light. Some people are revived and they don't have NDEs. Looking at it, its quite difficult to pinpoint a uniform experience amongst revived patients and clearly not all have experiences at all.

Now coming to religion, we all have that desire to live a bit longer or to reunite with that long lost loved one. Religions come in here as the hero to save the day and give you eternal hope with a price of believing their story and aligning to their moral authority here with the aim of securing a good spot in the afterlife.

That seems like an irresistible offer. But wait and think deeply, Religion is similar to the mental exercise your mind embarks on when about to take a HIV test or when about to confirm a truth that is very critical. You hang on to it with hope but just like that HIV test, you can't see your bloodstream or cells with your naked eye and you can't know till you cross the line and take the test so also you don't know any body that has been dead for 3 years or more and came back from the morgue to give you details of the afterlife. You can only hope but in reality the best thing you can do is to get your mind off it and take the test. In religions case, the best thing you can do is live a reasonable life and wait for the end. Just like discovering the mental exercises and anxiety you face is pointless when your blood is drawn to get the HIV result, religion is also pointless cause what is already waiting after death can't be changed in any way.

Now this is when religious arguments come in

Arguments like:

1. Why don't you be safe and just believe in something so when you die and meet god at least you might be safe and if there is no god you know you didn't lose. What we know as Pascals wager. The problem with this is that we have over 100 religions in the world now. Almost all religions are exclusivist believing their way is the only way that means you can't combine positions[ accumulations in betting]. You must pick one position which becomes very risky and poses no advantage. Staking your claim with 1 out of 100 is a bit less riskier than 0 over 100.

2. You also hear arguments like I know I am right because of faith . The problem with this is that most religions have that blind faith too. Its now like a game of shoot and freeze. So the first religion that is sold to you and sealed in your mind by blind faith becomes the only one you listen to thereby locking you to it and only it.
People also don't consider that if there was a god, what if the gods message had so been altered and what it really wanted you to do on earth was never revealed by man. There are millions of possibilities of what that god would want you to do and one of those possibilities would be god wanting man to be quiet and live peacefully and leave the earth. The possibilities are too much to explore in this life.
That's why the only reasonable option is to get your mind off a possible afterlife and live your life to the fullest.
Remember that with all our bickering and anxiety and attempts to lobby supernatural powers to secure a reasonable afterlife, we have no control or knowledge of what is there or not till when we face it.

Freethinkers in the house, I am waiting for your contributions.

Thanks