felixomor:


Sorry double liberal or whatever u call urself.

The religuos paranoia will kill him(Op) faster than any other thing.

Have u tried advising him on that?

By thw way Zuckenberg wouldnt have been able to come up with facebook which he co founded, if he was carrying this type of paranoia and angst up and down.

But I guess u will never see that.
How will you?

Anyway, try advising your brethren the OP first.
He needs it.

You weren't with Zuckerberg when he created Facebook. As a smart businessman I don't think he would ever want to show the bulk of his religious customers how much he detests their beliefs.

Whatever psychological problem the Op has comes from a myriad of factors including atheism. Try a Christian in Saudi Arabia and see how life goes.

In your bible, even Paul said it that at times they faced despair and hopelessness beyond description, so I guess that means Christianity causes that?

You people are still oblivious to how callous and insensitive you guys are being, you see someone down and all you can say is " serves you right atheist". Your behaviour only confirms our knowledge that your god and the power meant to emanate from your religion is all a mirage.

As for advising him, I will do it in private. You guys will attack every point made for his benefit just for your wicked pleasure. The other christian even wishes him dead from suicide.

When I point it out, you guys can't even see it.

You guys are akin to Chinese men who are lambasted for eating dogs and all they can do is wonder wtf is every one talking about.

You guys successfully carried the thread to 7 pages filled with insults and hatred for a person who rejects your beliefs then later you wonder why rational people reject your beliefs.

promise10:

please can you spare my falsehood belief and solve your depression, loneliness and Madness as you said in the op? can you?

if you're are not careful enough, you would end with suicide. just reminding you of that.

Evil Christian hypocrite.

You know how Muslims always say that Islam is a religion of peace but the reality keeps telling us the opposite.
Well look at what Christians say about Christianity being a religion of love and see the reality in everyday life telling us the opposite. A perfect example is the idiot posting this nonsense and mocking a potential suicidal case.

promise10:

yet, there is still a difference between atheists and Buddhists. you wish otherwise, but it doesn't work that way.

Wish what? Can you even hear yourself?

You still can't prove that atheists are unhappy. I listed fulfilled and successful atheists and you cherry picked Steve Jobs name from the list.

Can you please do a Google search on celebrity atheists or atheist scientists and see tons of successful people that have rejected your sky daddy.

promise10:

why are you guys so stupid to be keeping Steve jobs in your atheistic List?!

he never died an atheist, he died a Buddhist!

Pleas clap for yourself, so as Steve Jobs isn't on the list that means that their is no hope of happiness in the atheist world.

I can't believe your rebuttal was that Steve Jobs was on the list. So that's your only rebuttal?

That's like me telling you that Messi is not the best player in the world because he hasn't scored up to 600 goals in his career but actually scored 599. Isn't that inconsequential?

And in case you don't know, Buddhists do not believe in a god.

MrMarvelous:

Okay seriously what are you on about? I'm an atheist bro.

Oga no vex, sometimes I no dey understand English for night.

felixomor:


Where is the doctrine?

Dont deceive urself at this ur age.
Atheists dont live happy lives.
If u want to live a good life, better get rid of this religious paranoia. So u will not go n develop unnecessary panic attacks for what u call "imaginary".

A word is good enough for the wise.

You religious people are wicked, predatory liars

Let me list some unhappy, unfulfilled atheists

Mark Zuckerberg
Steve Jobs[ RIP]
Antonio Banderas
Wole Soyinka
Bill Maher
Julianne Moore

Am sure they are all unfulfilled and suffering depression

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/42063-why-are-so-many-pastors-committing-suicide

The link above shows how happy the champions of your faith are and how their happiness is leading to suicide amongst them.

If you religious people are happy because of religion then why such a love for everything secular, you guys love secular music more than gospel music, you guys love secular outings more than religious outing, you guys struggle to deny yourselves of secular pleasures and also struggle to increase your desire for godly things.

The OP has issues and the best you can do is to tell him how his atheism affects him.

How would i look if I see someone diagnosed with HIV and instead of counseling the person I now tell the person " where is your god now, why can't he help you". How callous would that be? That's exactly how you christards sound on this thread.

No wonder Mahatma Gandhi said " I like your Christ but I don't like your Christians"

All you religious people, can't you people treat someone with respect and care even if he doesn't share your views

He wants someone to talk to and all the Christ warriors here are talking down on him in a condescending way, calling him a teen, getting annoyed that he doesn't bow to your god.

I want to commend damogul for at least offering friendship and advice even though I know it will end in him offering Christ to him. But at least give a listening ear to someone who called for help.

@OP, you can talk to any of the atheists here, If you don't feel ok sharing your views here then you can send pm to any body.

MrMarvelous:

1 Peter 3:15New International Version (NIV)

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

Yes sir

Whip your brother in the lord into the line.

I used to love that scripture. I will save it for reference purposes against your kind.

DoctorAlien:
Just look at this fellow above me.

I have always said it: atheists who pose as sole arbiters of knowledge and rationality become incoherent and confused(or start acting ignorant) when you present real logic to them. Is it a surprise that some of the greatest and most logical minds ever to exist believe in and acknowledge the supremacy of GOD?

No. GOD is the source of all knowledge, and the fear of Him is the beginning of Wisdom.

Guy what are you saying sef?

Shame is a word used to describe a feeling that even kids know. Are you trying to say shame doesn't exist because we can't see it?
What of electricity? Does it exist because we can't see it.
What of love and affection?

I don't even understand you
We have accepted that so many things can exist without being seen but we must feel their effect. You don't just call things into existence. Wind exists without the eye seeing it but we can feel its effects, the same for love, electricity, shame, anger, poverty.

Please if you want to comment again kindly tell us how your Yahweh exists, we have accepted your Yahweh can't be seen like some of these invisible things but can't he be felt. Show me the effects of your god . Show us things that all reasonable evidence points to the sole cause being Yahweh.

You can't do that cause there is no way you can show us any effect that can't be attributed to Allah or any other god. Your God's power is as imaginary as the power of the stone in my backyard. The funny thing is that I can actually love, adore, worship and even be in a relationship with that stone in my backyard. The only power of that stone is to occupy space in my backyard. Any thing I claim that stone does for me can be attributed to so many other things.

DoctorAlien:


You are not the only one that doesn't have answers to those questions. Don't worry.

Bye.

You guys are impossible.

I asked you a question, I told you to give me proof of your gods existence, I didn't ask for visual proof, I asked for effects of nature that can be personally traced to Yahweh.

Instead of answering my question you came back with a kindergarten question of the effects of shame and how I know shame causes those effects. You stylishly dodged my first question and till now you can't bring an answer to it.

I know what you want to do. I know the philosophical game you want to play and that is a very dishonest game. If I am to tell you the effects of shame and tell you how I know shame is the cause, then you will start asking me how I am sure that shame causes those effects then we will argue and stretch the thread to 7 more pages filled with back and forth over a non issue.

We all know the effects of shame and if you claim you don't know the effects of shame then I don't know the effect of your religion on your conscience.

I am avoiding that booby trap.

My question is still open. Please answer cos I asked you first

How can you prove the existence of Yahweh. What are the visible and non visible effects of Yahweh on reality?

DoctorAlien:
LiberaDeus,

I'm not a man of much words. Please, when trying to quote me:

1. Go straight to the point. If all that you have to tell me can be squeezed into one sentence, please do so. It doesn't have to be two sentences when one is enough.

2. Don't bring in unnecessary, topic-derailing, additions e.g. telling me how I'm looking for a hole in your argument.

3. If you have nothing meaningful to tell me, don't bother mentioning me.

Thank you.

I think I've succeeded in proving you wrong because you agreed that we cannot see shame but that we can see its effect. It exists then, even though we don't see it, because we see its effects.

1. What are the effects of shame?

2. How are you sure that those combinations of effects are not caused by something other than shame? In essence, prove that shame is the cause of those effects.

Edited.

The questions you asked are funny, are we playing a linguistic game or what.

1. Are you seriously asking the effects of shame. I won't bother to answer that cause even tour 5 year old nephew knows that

2. This is so funny. I won't even go down this path. Asking how you know its shame that causes something is like me asking you how I know its love that makes you act in a certain way to your siblings.

Seriously, in this modern day and age. You actually want me to list out effects of shame. Let me ask you, if you see an embarrassed person won't you know? Can you recognize an angry person?

If you can recognize these emotions and their effects in human behavior and expression then why ask me how I know its those emotions that cause it.

Don't try and cloak your god in mystery by trying to play a philosophical hide and seek game.

I will say it again and again, if you are seriously asking me the effects of emotions like shame, anger, love then we have no business arguing.

Shame as an emotion has clearly visible effects that can be seen, measured , predicted and recognized. Your god doesn't have those attributes, you can only hide him under knowledge voids and gaps
In the end, your god is so imaginary that something invisible like emotions and electricity have a greater effect than him.

You have proved only yourself wrong, we can see the effects of emotions and if you are expecting me to answer a kindergarten question like the effects of shame you might as well ask me how I know 3 plus 3 equals 6.
You have been proven wrong cause you cannot show that your god that is invisible has any other effect that can be measured by other non visual agencies.

DoctorAlien:


Yes, the fact that you don't see anything does not mean it's not there.

Can you show me "shame"?

Is shame not there?

Stop starting useless argument cycles

When he used see, he used it metaphorically . Vision is not the only form of perception.
We cant see electricity, the wind, oxygen etc but we all see their effects. I am 100 percent sure that he knows vision is not the only form of perception.

Can't someone speak figuratively again. You Christians look for little holes in our robust arguments hoping to deflate them while your arguments are like bursted balloons that have been patched over and over.

We can't see the emotion shame but we can see the effects of shame and we also feel it. And with a microscope we can see the hormones that cause shame.

So try another line. Pleas tell the effect of your god Yahweh on life. How can we confirm the effects of your god on human life. Don't tell me about natural occurrences and design in nature, cos there is no proof that it is your tribal Jewish deity that is responsible for anything.

frank317:


Well, at least , thank me for showing u how foolish is it for you to want me to proof the nonexistence of your so called God to you.

Oga, I want to remind you here that we are talking about a supposed creator of you and I. Do you realize that there are various religion claiming to have knowledge of him yet man remains man, without knowledge of anything... making assumptions and trying to male sense of his world. Is God a God of religion? why must i tune to your religion to know who created me? Do you tune to anything to know your father? doesnt it just come naturally because he is there for you? How can you tell me religious folks have knowledge of the creator yet they living life just like me, in fact I am better than some of them. Perhaps you think the knowledge of who a creator is is a joke.

i have not seen Mars before and I can decide to accept it exists or not, it not important to me... perhaps thats how your so called creator is too. I have seen images of Mars and that's all I know about it and information about it is interesting.. so? why will i start believing in Mars, will it help me get more food on my table? If i wake up tomorrow and there is a new info that Mars does not exist, how does that change anything for me?

How are u comparing a supposed creator to Mars and Venus? Dont do that because you are turning this God theory into a huge joke. Do you know what it means by me actually knowing that I have a creator and rejecting it? How can i know there is a creator and then come on line and say its a lie? what do I have to gain by saying I have no creator when i know i have one?

How can you say there is God and I dont know about it, yet you cannot tell me anything about this God? How am i stubborn for not accepting something that does not make sense to me? If i also reject that Oduduwa is the creator, do u think i am also stubborn?

Even if Jesus existed how does that make him God? Is Mohammed a special messenger of God too? What will i stand to gain by stubbornly saying I have one eyes when i know I have tow eyes?

Oga if God exists, me and you will not be having this conversation, simple. There will be no confusion, whatsoever about it. If i say i have one eyes will u bother trying to prove to me i have two eyes?

Don't mind them.

Imagine going into a store to buy a plasma tv.
So many vendors approach you, they tell you the benefits of buying their tv.

You now ask for a trial a stand, the vendors tell you to buy it first and take it home and that's the only trial that you can be offered.
Ok you now agree to take home a plasma tv without testing it there with the faith that it will work well.
When you put it on, the color seems to be very disappointing, you call the vendor and he tells you to have faith, only when you have faith and believe the best of that tv will you see the best of it.

You are also advised never to question the quality and the moment you try to use another vendor then the deal is off and you will no longer be on warranty.

That my friend best describes the evil of religions
You are sold a story, you ask for confirmation but confirmation is denied only when you swallow the story hook,line and sinker.

If you swallow it and start asking questions then you find out that according to the religion you shouldn't question god[ a god you don't know], you shouldn't even consider other religions cause when you do that you are damned and won't experience the benefits of the religion. It is a never ending cycle of blind faith and fear.
Only the deep thinkers can see through the facade.

honourhim:


Mr adviser can you now see that your client has confessed that she wasn't a Christian? You people are so pathetic.

What are you saying ?

How does her confession reduce or negate what I just said to her. Its even better that she isn't a Christian cause I expect her to be more rational.

The advice I gave her was pertaining to this forum and even if she is a Muslim or pantheist it will still be useful for her.

The summary of what I said is ;

1. On NL religion section, people will insult and attack you for your beliefs no matter what those beliefs are

2. Always accept the ideas and evaluate them. In other words, shun the insult and focus on the points raised by people no matter their own belief system.

So please what wrong in what i said to her. How does my advice seem useless.

You guys just created a straw man argument
The argument is " she came onto nairaland, I advised her as an exchristian and she disowned me "

Am sure you feel so good winning that fake non existent straw man argument.

In reality what happened is this " she came onto nairaland to meet people with diverse views, I thought she was an exchristian and I gave her advice on what to expect as one but my advice is still very useful for any one with any belief system"

You Christians are the pathetic ones. Everyday more and more people are leaving your fold and giving your primitive petty, tribalistic god the finger as they leave.

damogul:


which thread of prayer?

Why pray when you can plan

But don't worry if you don't have time, the thread is dying already.

damogul:



Eeya even you did not see where she confessed to not being a Christian which translates to her not having any personal experince or testimony. She is still a child and was never an adult. She has to learn the belly flop then crawl then stagger upright then walk then run and i would gladly show her if she is willing.

Do not fret so much..she hasnt reach out to me yet. She only asked to follow my moniker which i have granted and followed her back.

Speak less and observe more alrght?

Ok sir I will speak less and observe more. I didn't insult you nah. Lets keep it civil, you can also keep it christlike.

Let me use an analogy. You must not buy a car to evaluate it. You must not buy a phone to evaluate it. If you want to choose a car to buy will you buy all the cars like Mercedes, Toyota, Honda etc and drive them all at the same time to evaluate it.

One can make a wise decision without engrossing himself in it. Wise people learn from other peoples experiences.

For you did you become a Muslim for a while, were you a Buddhist for a while, did you taste Ifa religion, how come you are now sure that Christianity is the way.

With your logic, only when you test something completely by being a member can you evaluate its faults, that means because you were never a Muslim that you are totally wrong about it.

Or please tell me whether you were a Muslim or Buddhist for a while.
She can evaluate, because she has heard your doctrine, seen the Christian lifestyle, measured the claims of your holy book with reality, gauged the morality of Christians and decided that it is not worth it. She did the exact same thing you did to Islam that made you decide not to be a Muslim.

As for me, I didn't need to become a member of all religions before I shunned them. I evaluated all the religions and can talk extensively on any major religion. I shunned them with clear reasons not because I didn't evaluate them. I hope you did the same too or did you just depend on the conviction of the spirit cause every other religion has that conviction.

But am still waiting for your reply on that thread of prayer.

Thanks

Mr Damogul, I can see you bragging about how you will make her love God. I am still waiting for your response on the prayer thread. Anytime you are free, please endeavor to respond on that thread not just for my sake but for the sake of those reading.

Let me assure you of one thing, nobody that sees the light will ever go back to darkness. No one that has fever become an adult will seek childhood again.

If she has evaluated all religious claims and atheistic claims and decided she wants to be an atheist then there is nothing you can do. The key word here is evaluate.

I can promise you that she will never be a Christian again cause she can't decide to go back into childhood.

I don't understand what you Christians are all about.

I predicted what you guys would say and it wasn't up to 10 minutes and you said it.

What if she wasn't a Christian? What's the big deal there
Does that change the fact that there are countless Christians who have left the faith because of contradictions.

Why are you Christians jumping up and down because she said she was never a Christian. Does that somehow prove that only non Christians leave the church or what?

Do you guys seriously want to go down that path.
There is a site named Exchristian.net you can visit it and see countless testimonies of former Christians who were as christian as you can ever be leaving the fold because of enlightenment.

She introduced herself and Christians didn't even allow her land and they are trying to tear her to pieces.

I think Christians are the ones who show insecurity on this forum.

When hardmirror created his thread, all the Christians went berserk, insulting him and using the same diatribes used here.

When urheme created his own thread, the same Christians were literally overjoyed, urging him to go on and on.

The fact is that Christians need validation and protection of their faith. That's why when they see exchristians testifying they can't seem to swallow why someone like them would leave the fold, such a realization is a threat to the belief that when one is in Christ he is a new creation. They attack because they can't accept.

When they now see an ex atheist turning Christian, they jump in joy, they shove it in everyone's face.
When a notable scientist like michio kaku claims that he believes in god, so many Christian apologist websites jumped on the news and brandished it as proof of the divine but they don't even check to see that Kaku never talked about their own god.

Let's get something straight now, people can shift from religion to atheism and vice versa, people can switch religions, almost any philosophical shift is possible and there are reasons for them.

Lets not turn this thread into an argument for no just cause. She is an atheist, leave her like that, no need to try and discredit her atheism or Christianity or whatever you think you are trying to discredit.

mhizesther:
well,i was never a christian and will never be a christian....who cares if ur jesus promised u a trouble free life or not...i

My Jesus?

I don't know any such person. I used to hear of one that apparently was executed by the Roman governor 2000 years ago and they even said his death was meant to save my great great great grandfather from sin and hell, unfortunately my ancestor didn't meet him, what an incompetent plan from bros J and his father.

Madam read my post well, I ain't a Christian

donnffd:


I have things to do, i cant start explain, but a good google search and a good source can quench that thirst i am sure.

I would say this though, We dont fully understand every thing, and that is not a bad thing, it just means we should continue to strife for knowledge, but a terrible mistake would be to assume intelligence to a phenomena just simply because of the fact that you dont understand it.

I have read a lot on DNA and life. Nothing seems convincing concerning the origin of the first cell and DNA.

I thought your explanation could throw light on something I haven't seen .

I will read more on it. But as I said that is the only entity that throws in the need for a designer, every other thing can be traced to physical and quantum mechanics and it's effects.

mhizesther:
well,there was actually a time when i thought Their God was real...my grandma was so sick she was at the point of death .i loved my grandma so much ,when my parents were down financially my grandma did everything for us .we took her to the hospital but it was still the same.....my grandma believed in God and the pastors were like dont worry God has granted ur grandma 15 more years and i was relieved ....on the 31st of december 2015 around 11:15pm i lost my grandma and i told the pastors to ask their God to bring her back since he raised lazarus,the kind woman's son too was brought back to life but as usual they gave me the God gives and takes..They believe in a God who sent the devil to torment them and he let them suffer everyday and they still believe their reward is in heaven...lol

Nice testimony.
I hope you know what they will say on this thread.
Christians will say the following and they have already started saying it

1. You were never really born again or you were a wolf in sheep's clothing

2. If you were a Christian, you didn't have a real relationship with Christ, you were a legalistic Christian and you focused on your own works, you should have sought the assistance of the spirit.

3. You are a weak Christian, just because you lost your grandma you fell out of the faith. Christians suffered more than that, Jesus was even crucified, god didn't promise you a life free from trouble.

They will say the above and much more but don't worry cause the rebuttals to all these points are available.
Remember to always keep an open mind in all you do. Don't dismiss religious views totally, always think and consider their view points and also the atheistic view points.
Unlike us, Christians grow their faith by avoiding dissenting world views and obfuscation of other religions and view points. But we freethinkers accept all ideas and reason them, we are like an open melting pot if ideas, if the truth can face resistance from different ideas and still remain then that truth is certain.

Religious truth is like a spoilt brat shielded from all the world's challenges that's why when it faces the light of different ideas, they go berserk, they feel surprised that such views exist and they feel unsettled.
But atheistic truth is like a child that has been sent to military school to learn the challenges of life. That child is not unsettled by challenges.

donnffd:


The misconception that DNA is such an intelligent thing baffles me and i believe it stems from the fact most people dont fully understand what it is and its function in living things.

DNA is just a molecule that can replicate, its replication is not perfect(another sign of non-intelligence), sometimes segments get duplicated, sometimes bases change and so on. In about 3.8billion years, you have a molecule that has been undergoing these kind of changes and you are still surprised that it is this complex?

The exact origin of the molecule is still speculative, some say it started from RNA(see RNA world hypothesis), which it most likely did, but we cant be sure because it has not been experimentally proven, but whatever or how ever it came about, it is obvious that no intelligence whatsoever was involved.

Kindly explain how that DNA controls the growth of biological life forms. Doesn't it seem so coincidental that they self replicate into cells and the cells intelligently organize themselves.

Please take your time and explain, I am all ears

Welcome to NL.

Please tell us more about yourself. Why are you an atheist instead of Christian? What do you think about the religious section?
Do you have challenges in life with your lack of faith?

@OP

Christianity is never going to be 100% rational to you. The more you try to understand it the more you will see holes.

To move on, you have to be able to do what most Christian apologists do which is " ignore what doesn't make sense and wait for eternity were everything will be explained "

I noticed that many Christians are able to live their lives anyhow and still claim to be spiritual especially these days of Pentecostal churches that don't preach the hard parts of Christendom.

But any intellectually honest person won't be happy to be serving god and not doing it well enough.
OP your problem is that you lack hypocrisy so you want it to be fair and square. If you continue down the path of probing and probing, you will find out the truth of your religion nd it will be mind boggling. If you are not ready for that please be a bench warmer in church.

P.S I am an agnostic in case you are wondering.

donnffd:


The idea that intelligence must be behind complexity stems from our own species and our effects on the world. Humans have always been a very unimaginative species, we believe the world and the universe always work according to the way we are and understand, this is so far from the truth. Evolution is just one field where you can have complexity from simpler forms without any input from a designer or intelligence, why should an alien intelligence arise any differently?

So how do you propose DNA with its 3 billion letter code came about?

KingEbukasBlog:


Are you a deist ?

I am an agnostic atheist.

Atheist to all religious gods

Agnostic to a supreme intelligent being existing outside our universe

damogul:



You started off well then digressed into things that had nothing to do with Prayer just to add some beef to your content so i helped you to highlight the irrelevant portions of your comment.

Now lets deal with the crux of the matter.


Prayer as known by a man who isnt spiritual is seen as discussing with an "imaginary friend"

Prayer as known by a spiritual man is seen as embracing the will and power of a divine friend, brother, father, God

Now God himself gave parameters for prayer application in order to enable him come into the picture and 2 of the key conditions are FAITH and DESIRE.

Faith in God translates to trust in God and Trust in God translates to believing God is who He is and is the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him thus declaring that He is greater than you and can do what your human ability cannot do especially when all else fails.

That is the pillar of Prayer for Christianity.

I did say that prayer is an experience and in this experience is growth. Nobody born today can begin running..He must first belly flop then learn to crawl etc. So it is with prayer.

Prayer begins small and as one grows in God and Faith so do the results. So look at it this way;

Not all that pray have grown and when you wish to carry a prayer project bigger than you, you would flop because you are yet to get to that point but for others they have crossed that point so can easily get answers to prayer in a day that would take you weeks.

Prayer works in 2 ways....draws us closer to God and also grooms us spiritually so we can learn through practise how to become better and stronger in God hence hearing Him better and understanding Him too.

Truthfully and Personally i have seen Prayer do what medicine couldnt and what men failed to do and i have seen this enough times as a religious practice to form a "scientific" opinion that its not;

1) Coincidence

2) Luck of the draw

3) Placebo effect

My experiences which are indeed mine cannot be disproved by you until you present me with your own personal experiences under the same conditions i found myself and applied Prayer....Now this is what science is all about isnt it? Being able to replicate an experiment under the same conditions in order to get the same results hence making the experiment and its findings credible. Have you done this yet?

If you have not then this discussion has no basis as its yet theory to you but Practical experience to me so in this case I AM THE SCIENTIST while YOU ARE NOT.

The spirit Realm is a realm i am a part of as a Child of God and no definition or earth can cover it so i will pass on that as its an experience and not a theory as i have already said.

When i decree a thing to another and it comes to pass repeatedly exactly as decreed and is seen and documented then it becomes scientific..e.g

1) As a young boy growing in Christ i have angrily decreed job loss to a security guard who harassed my brother for nothing and i gave him a 2 week deadline. He was sacked for no tangible reason almost 2 weeks later.

2) It was revealed to me by God that my first kid would be a boy and when he would come would be 5 yrs into my marriage. I told my wife but she was anxious for us to have a kid early. She tried everything to fast forward the process. Nothing worked until the 5yr deadline was up. 5 days from her missing her period i was told by the holy spirit while in bed early in the morning that she was pregnant and i woke her up and congratulated her and told her our son is here. 9 months later our son was born.

My second kid was also revealed to me as a Girl and her name given to me and i have told my wife as well. Now based on the first experience she now believes.

3) It was revealed to me by God that i would be taken to a place by a woman who would introduce me to some land owners who would want me to assist them and when i got there i would know. 2 yrs after a lady offered me a land sponsorship deal in ikorodu and when i went all the things i saw in the dream i saw them on ground and i sponsored the land survey and got loads of acres in return which would be a church city in the future.

4) I have seen too many demon possessed people delivered..even at my own hands. They were not manipulated or coerced and after they were freed their lives regained normalcy.

The list is endless. This is just to buttress what personal experience is and it is not kalo kalo or placebo. Science cannot transcend the spiritual to explain it but the spiritual can identify with science as proof of its existence which is what the articles i posted clearly indicated.

If you wish to be reasonable with this argument then first of all try not to speak from hearsay. Experience is the best teacher. Come onboard and see this for yourself under the right conditions and then if it fails you then have a good ground to speak knowledgeably on the said subject matter.

I don't see the irrelevance of those points but I will shun them and focus on your new points.

1. You talked about prayer being a spiritual exercise that can only be successful when faith and desire are applied to god, then and only then can the results be shown.
I don't have the faith neither do I have the desire but what about the over 80 million Christians in Nigeria. Now let me use an analogy, you talked about people growing in prayer based on spiritual growth.

Now let's look at the military as an example. If 1000 people are thrown into NDA for training, there is a high probability that after 3 years or even a year one would start to see the changes in their lives. They will most likely be more physically fit , they would have more physical endurance etc.

This effects will be visible even though they are still trainees and not yet generals or colonels. When you see someone with little military training there must be a slight noticeable difference. Now let's come to Christians, we have over 80 million Christians in Nigeria, let's say only 10 million have decided to grow spiritually, we must see differences in lifestyle and most importantly answers to prayers no matter how small, it doesn't matter if I have been in NDA for just 6 months, the effects of military training must show in my life, also it doesn't matter how immature a Christian is, if prayer works then we must notice a slight difference in general lifestyle and progress of Christians. It must be noticeable to the point where so called Worldly people will know that there is something different about these Christians.

2. You talked about you performing experiments in prayer and the fact that only when these experiments are performed again can they be disproved.
Sorry science doesn't work like that.
If a scientist makes a claim and performs a successful experiment then the burden of proof is on him to perform it again or present it to the public for confirmation.

In this case, you don't have to perform it again, I don't even have to perform it, all I need to do is to look at those applying faith and desire to a situation while the situation doesn't budge. And believe you me, I can't count the number of Christians I can see that pray with faith and desire and still no results. What about Nigeria for example, do you want to honestly say that no one in our 56 year existence has prayed for a better country with faith and desire.

I beg to differ, I know countless people that have done that and still no result.
Your claim is like one saying that a particular species of mammals can fly, if you can bring out one example and perform it for everyone to see it still won't be taken as fact because it might be an anomaly, to completely confirm and verify your case, you or anyone else has to be able to bring out a sizeable number and make them fly, then and only then can it be taken as fact.
Why is it that with all the people that have claimed a cure for hiv, no one has been proven to be correct, do you know that this scientists actually cured some few people with their vaccines? But those vaccines can't be called cures because they have to be tested over a wide range of people to be confirmed.

If it works just on one person then it might be the persons immune system not necessarily the drug. It has to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the vaccine is a cure for hiv.


Am sorry but to prove the efficacy of prayer, your experiences are not enough but the combined experiences of Christians. No matter how differing the faith is among Christians, no matter how weak some are, no matter how lazy, if a group of over 80 million people claim to have access to a supreme creator of the universe and he hears them, there must be a visible difference that can be confirmed by all.


3. Your experiences are wonderful. But there are people in other religions that have similar experiences. It is very likely even though not yet proven that humans might have telepathic abilities. I also know people that can tell you things about yourself even without knowing you and without praying. There are so many examples of paranormal experiences. Many of these abilities come naturally to some people. I don't want to doubt the veracity of your claims cos that will turn into an endless cycle. I for one have seen countless of these things happening before me, I can also reason and see that these things happen without any effort for this people. They are just born that way.
Just understand that premonition and other paranormal experiences happen to Christians and many other non religious people and also people of other religions.
That can't be used as the proof of power of a universal tool like prayer. The effects must be seen on a large scale.

Also your claim that the effects of prayer can only be measured in spiritual terms is not biblical, please check Matthew 6: 6 and see Jesus admonition to his disciples concerning prayer and how the effects will be seen openly.

I also gave examples in the bible that show that when one prays, unbelievers should see the effects.
If Nigerian Christians are praying and it is working then no matter how minute the effects are it must be visible for non Christians the way the following peoples prayer was visible for all the unbelievers around them
1. Moses and the plagues in Egypt
2. Moses and parting the red sea
3. Joshua and the walls of Jericho
4. David and goliath
5. David and his victories against Israel's enemies
6. Solomon's wisdom
7. Jesus miracles ( remember that Jesus said that his followers will do more than him if they pray)
8. The works of Peter in the book of acts
9. The works of Paul
10. Elijah holding rain
11. Elishas miracles

Am not saying that Christians should replicate them cause that won't be useful in modern times. Am just saying that with so many believers in this modern era of grace, it won't be far fetched to see undeniable evidences of the power of prayer in this country. We should see it in every aspect of Christian life.

You also talked about coming on board. Am sorry but I was once a devout Christian involved in every thing you consider Christian. From speaking in tongues, to revelations, rhema from the word of god, feeling the presence of god, word of knowledge and impression of the spirit. I don't want to go deep into my experience cause that's not what this is about. But I have been onboard the ship and I have freed myself from it.

damogul:


I will keep this short and sweet alright? When I speak i speak from the perspective of one who Believes in God and the efficacy of Prayer.

Now even as a believer in the power of prayer i can relate to science when it tries to put into words the benefits prayer has to offer but since they are not viewing it from my angle spiritually they can only offer physical pointers which are truly the best of their ablity.

Note that these are recent discoveries yet Prayer has been carried out by humanity long before science intelligently began and even in that crude era the benefits were tangible and today science confirms that. So who scientifically recommended prayer back then for it to be beneficial when intelligent science did not exist?

If you read the articles you would see where it clearly stated that prayer has been part of humanity right from the beginning so how come this is so and yet it was not detrimental but beneficial even when there was no research covering it?

I did point at Prayer being a Faith thing which hinges on experiences and not theories. These experiences are personal and verifiable so words from people who lack these personal experiences cannot be used to replace the experiences people have had.

Since Prayer is a physical practice based on spiritual foundations how then can you measure it accurately without also applying spiritual parameters?

Ok I understand your points. Let me try and summarize them and give my replies.

1. You said that you view it from a spiritual angle so people viewing it from a physical angle can't understand. - from what religions say about prayer, it is clear that prayer is meant to be a spiritual exercise that presents physical benefits.

In other words, if I am a microbiologist and I use my scientific methods with the aid of a microscope, most people would never understand my terminology let alone understand how to use a microscope.
They won't be able to study a piece of bacteria neither would they be able to understand the process of developing a vaccine. One thing is sure, if I claim to be a microbiologist, then my theories should be verifiable in real life.

When someone claims he has a cure for hiv, people must not understand how it works they only need to be able to verify that it works.
In Christianity and other world religions, prayer is said to have a physical effect that can be seen. For example, Elijah praying for rain, Moses parting the red sea, David winning physical battles, the Israelite neighbors attesting to the power of Yahweh etc.

2. Prayer has been carried out long before modern science. But in life, the age of a practice doesn't verify the benefits. Slavery has been carried out long before human rights was preached. Slavery seemed to be beneficial for society since it brought an ever ready working class, it made some people rich, if it wasn't beneficial why wasn't it scrapped up until the 19th century based on your logic. But now we know better than continuing slavery. We can see that societies can reach very high levels of economic prosperity without slavery e.g USA, UK etc.

There are so many age long practices that have been scrapped, what of circumcision, female circumcision, animal sacrifice, bloodletting etc. All these practices were attested to be effective but now we know that whatever benefits they appeared to give there was also a whole lot of negatives coming with it. We have replaced these practices. The same thing with prayer, just because its old doesn't mean it is effective. Prayer is old because it is a psychological coping mechanism used by humans to deal with difficult situations and it is almost natural. But what appears to be natural is not always beneficial.

Defecating in public seems to be natural for all mammals and we humans did it for almost all our existence but we now have better and cleaner ways of excretion. Just like excretion, the urge to defecate comes and we decide to use a toilet cause we have developed one, in prayer also, the problems of life comes and we want to do the almost natural thing of appealing to a supposed higher power in the cloud but due to advancement of humanity we now know that planning before hand is just okay and prayer doesn't change anything.

3. You also talk about prayer being personal so the benefits are personal. This just supports my point that the greatest benefits of prayer are personal and psychological.
Your point of prayer not being measured independently goes against Jesus teaching that says that Christians are the light and salt of the earth. Jesus clearly states that if you put a light out for everyone to see it will be beneficial and people will give glory to god. So Jesus never claimed that prayers effects couldn't be seen. In short, the apostolic ministry is mainly about praying and performing signs and wonders so people can see and believe.

People have personal experiences quite alright but those experiences can be proven to be deeply emotional effects of fervent belief. The same way you cannot quantify my love for my wife because the love comes from my mind. Its the same thing too with prayer. If people enjoy it and feel better and claim they prefer its benefits to not praying who can argue with them for their opinion and experience. But if this same people claim that prayer can move a mountain or raise the dead and they are asked to do it then the personal claims are no longer valid. The claims must be demonstrated since the so called power of prayer is claimed to be universal not personal.

4. Oga what do you define as spiritual. Please give me a definition of the spirit realm and what belongs there. Its only when you table what belongs there that I can refute or accept your last point.

damogul:


*facepalm* Mr Intelligent also missed the memo. Wow..well so much for intelligence.

Bros no need for too much argument.

I don't like threads derailing into arguments and fights, it makes the topic to be shrouded with smoke.

Back to the point, I read the links you posted . The links show a benefit of prayer that has been detailed by most psychologists.

I want you to consider something, if I give you a key to open a door and you try it over and over again and the lock doesn't open, will it be smart for you to claim that the key was beneficial since using it made you feel better and it even helped to train your arm muscles? That won't be smart at all, if the key doesn't work it doesn't work period, every other benefit of trying the key can be gained by other activities.

Lets look at the key of prayer. People pray for so many things including;

1. Good health and cure for diseases
2. Exam success and brilliance
3. Material wealth and prosperity
4. Divine protection from known ills that plague humans like natural disasters, crime, theft, kidnap , terrorism etc
5. Long life
6. Spiritual prosperity and growth of religious adherents

Looking at what was mentioned above, from the links you posted, the only benefit derived from prayer is a mild psychological benefit.

This benefit doesn't eliminate the desire for good health and long life . The benefit just means that people that pray have been shown in average to enjoy the ride a bit more thereby making themselves a bit healthier.
This is what we mean by the placebo effect.
If prayer is like the key I mentioned above then it doesn't open any of the 6 doors but just slightly turns the first door.

Does that sound like a key that works?

So posting those links is like saying a key that was meant to open a lock didn't open it but you felt better while using it and you trained your muscles.

Am yet to see the power and efficacy of prayer.

donnffd:


You cant make claims of what is the most complex thing in the universe when you are limited to a very tiny fraction of it, you dont know whats out there!

If you said DNA is the most complex thing in the universe known to man, it would be a more valid statement in which i would still disagree with, i would say the human brain is the most complex object in the universe known to man.

Yes I meant universe known to man. The existence of design in animals is the backbone of a belief in god.

But even if we find more complex creatures in distant planets it only throws the gaping question back again which is ' was there intelligence behind some of it '

KingEbukasBlog:


Have you heard of National Prayer Day in the US and other European countries that believe in God ? In Denmark , it is called the Great Prayer Day . The UK Parliament recite prayers before they begin any activity

Ok lets look at the your facts

USA can be termed to be the most successful country in the 20th century. So let's examine some points or factors that led to that

A. Prayer
B. Sound national planning
C. Luck [ Britain and France losing their colonies thereby creating a void for U.S. to fill ]
D. Market oriented economy
E. Freedom of speech and emphasis on human rights
F. Immigration and absorption of ideas from other nations

Now lets look at a country like Kenya or Nigeria that observes national prayers on more than one occasion.
Out of the above mentioned factors the only thing we have in common is Prayer.

But we don't have the same stats or success level with the USA, what does that show you?

It implies that prayer is the weakest link in that list and is responsible for nothing. I can list at least seven countries that have national prayer days in the world but they still suffer from so much. Brazil was such a country, very religious for a long while and even older than the USA but until they started putting the right factors in place they never got close to national progress.

You can apply this same rational method to UK, Denmark and every European country and you will get the same results. Its worse for the European countries because they are at least 900 years old and for most of their lifespan they didn't enjoy what you will term as success. Why did the success start coming when they applied the principles I mentioned for USA.

That's on a national level.

On a personal level, can you prove that your night vigils and 7 hour prayers make you slightly better or more successful than your unbelieving neighbor?

KingEbukasBlog:


Mister the article clearly stated that Christian-dominant countries are the richest in the world . This means that in those countries , the Christians are superior in number than any other religious affiliation . Please learn to comprehend and stop obfuscating facts.

And it also mentioned that Christianity has the most millionaires in the world . Do you know that more than half of the over 1800 billionaires are Christians ?

Do you know that Christians - 32 percent of the world's population - own over 55 percent of the global wealth ?

Calm down, I didn't start with an angry tone so let's not descend down that tunnel.

Ask yourself whether those countries are successful because of Christian prayer, have you not heard of the enlightenment? How can you tie it all to the power of prayer when you can also observe countries that are very religious in your so called right religion and still can't replicate the same effects.

I m not disputing the facts you mentioned above.

I didn't obfuscate the facts but I tried to relate them with the efficacy of prayer.

Please how do the facts above show that prayer works.
You mentioned the richest people, have you also considered poverty and other issues plaguing other Christian counties. How has prayer helped that.

And of prayer is so effective then it should be effective everywhere. You glossed over Japan and brought more countries to the argument. Why is Japan appearing to attain all the things Nigeria with its prayer can't attain. You can't ignore that fact.
The law of gravity doesn't work only in some areas but universally. If a law or theory is true then it should be observed everywhere.
Citing Nigeria, how has the power of prayer worked in our 55 year existence? And ask yourself why Japan can progress without any national recourse to prayer.