₦airaland Forum

justaqad: after vedaxcool explanation you need to hide your head.

Vedaxcool is my boy. We are debating an issue of poverty and Islam and not explaining what the pillars of islam are

justaqad: The Purpose of Hajj The ritual of hajj is not any different from any other ritual of Islam. These rituals are acts of worship and must be dedicated to the name of God alone (6:162). The Quran stresses in a number of verses that the only purpose of hajj is to commemorate the name of God. As a result, every precious hour and day of the Hajj should be spent in commemorating the name of God Almighty alone: "And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage …… they shall commemorate God’s name during the specified days for providing them with the livestock" 22:27-28 "You shall commemorate God for a number of days" 2:203 "While you file from ‘Arafat’ you shall commemorate God " 2:198 "As you complete your rites, you shall continue to commemorate God " 2:200

I did not bother to read your stories. I am not asking for justification for these rules or pillars. I am stating a fact that there are fundamental rules in islam that makes it difficult for a poor person to be muslim.

vedaxcool: @mcdaddy, ur argument has many holes and lacks merits'! Would u then say Islam is not meant for the sick? Because certain cases might leave one only performing one of the pillars of Islam. In essence what Islam did is to provide flexibility to perform the religious rites, thereby eliminating undue burden from adherents who for one reason or the other cannot perform the pillars of Islam. Yet all 5 pillars of Islam provide great benefits to the society, zakat will go along way in providing social services for the poor thereby improving their condition which can in the long run remove them from poverty. Fasting has brought the rich to expreince the condition of the poor hence making them wanting to do more in helping the poor. Hajj re-emphasis the equality of humanity and the brotherhood of mankind this made Malcom X remarked "this represents the true UN" again in our country people have aided the "poor" to go for hajj. Of this
3 only two can be rightfully not practiced by the "poor". This brings us to the role of muslims govt, uplifting the conditions of the Muslim to eradicating poverty, this throws up the story of caliph Abd' Aziz whom is a descendant of the second caliph Umar r.a, it was during his reign that poverty had been reduced that no one accepted Zakat from the authorities. Honest and purposeful leadership can re-create such scenario. Islam removing the compulsion to practice certain rites DOES NOT mean Islam is not for the poor, but that it recognizes the situation mankind and adequately made provisions to make the religion practicable reminding me of what the prophet said pertaining religion that if given between a hard and easy practice to do choose in religion he would go for the easy one. If disagree would you then say Nigeria is not meant for the poor? Given that certain provision like taxation etc only applies to the rich? I hope u get my drift.

You waited for your pals to defend Islam before you came here? You have been ignoring this thread!


1) Everyone can be sick
2) It is not only the 3 pillars I mentioned. The problem of non-halal food is also there (poor man can not be picky with food)
3) Poor man can not be picky with jobs in this global recession; jobs in gambling companies,casinos or beer/wine companies.

tintingz: nop, but... go on and insult me and Prophet Mohammed[pbuh], Quran says 2.257. Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).
So keep on celebrating ur atheism, ur place is there in the verse above

See how religion teaches you to be wicked? As an atheist I believe that everyone has an equal ending in death. You on the other hand, believe that just because someone is born in an atheist country and becomes atheist or a pagan society and becomes a pagan, the person must burn in hell.

justaqad: Ur whole argument is baseless.the poor will not burn in hell for not paying zakat,fasting or going to hajj.hehehehehehehehehe

Did I say that they will burn in hell? Is that my argument?


The point is that Islam is not for poor people in some of its doctrines. How can 3 out of the 5 pillars be problematic for poor people?

LagosShia: you guys should please ignore the clown and trol called MacDaddy alias logicboy alias Cheers01.

ignore him and he'd keep quiet and feel exactly the nonsense he keeps spread making no sense but only to waste time.

lololololol.

If you cant handle the debate, please get out form the thread.

Please point to any lie or nonsense that I have said or shut up.

justaqad: hehehehehheehehehehe.
And will the God admonish them for not being able to perform those acts?
Poor people can give zakat
poor people can fast
poor people can perform hajj..

How many poor Nigerians have been on hajj? I can point to millions of Nigerians who live on less that $10 a day. How many poor Nigerians can give Zakat? How can a hungry man fast?

tintingz: as far u keep on attacking others belief u a gentile and a kafir, u for say artist

Did Mohammed teach you to mock people? You wouldnt like it if I called you a terrorist or insulted the prophet and so lets focus on the debate

justaqad: hehehehehehehehehehehehe. Bro look read the history of pagan arabs.
Quran was revealed at a time of
extreme ignorance, where burying your daughters alive was
acceptable, where son would marry the wives of their father,
people who had money and power would have 100s of slaves men and women and having limitless wives was a norm of the
society (who could afford it). According to the customs of that
ignorant period, sex or prostitution using the slave girls was
allowed and acceptable. Another argument that people make is
that no Nikah is required to have extra marital relations with a
slave woman. Plus people do believe there is no contradiction is Quran... then how can something like this be mentioned as
allowed in one place and not allowed in another place. The answer
is fairly simple for those to seek guidance. Quran was revealed to
Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in 23 years. Allah knew that changing
the customs of any society takes years and hence slow and steady
approach was taken,so the later Surah was revealed, it would be closer to the Islam as it was
finalized (remember the last Khutba of our Prophet PBUH) at the
time of last Hajj of our prophet PBUH. Hence it is logical to assume
that Ayahs which were revealed in Madina will hold more value when a conflict arises within Quran

Yawn. The Quran sees slavery as a part of life and permits it. What your right hand possesses.

Do you know that muslims were the last to abolish slavery?

justaqad: that is the essence of zakat. Its aim is creating social balance,.its obligatory on the rich to give the poor,its an act of piety.
How is it a bad thing?

I named 3 pillars of Islam that poor people would have problems partaking in. If the pillars of a building have problems the building as a whole has problems.


Now, if 3 out of 5 pillars arent for poor people, is Islam really fair?

Poor man can not do Zakat
Poor man can not travel to mecca
Poor, starving man can not fast (ulcer)

tintingz: christ Jesus[as] called you people gentiles, so whatz up

I am not a christian. I'm an atheist. I am not a follower or believer in Jesus

tintingz: hey Gentile this a thread on Zakat
https://www.nairaland.com/984617/why-muslims-pay-zakat

Keep using that racist word "gentile". I know what Zakat is.

tintingz: bro u dey mind that gentile

Are you a Jewish racist? "gentile" is a word used by Jews who saw people as only divided into two; Jews or Gentiles. As if Jews were the most important people in the world

justaqad: hehehehehehehehehe,diversionary tactics.
Where in the quran is slavery sanctioned?

24:58 "O ye who believe! Let your slaves, and those of you who have not come to puberty, ask leave of you at three times (before they come into your presence)."

justaqad: the etiquettes of zakat is creating social balance,salvation does not lie in zakat,it is a kind gestures of rich muslims towards the poorer muslims.
The basic and essential objective of Zakat is purification of the soul. It cures the lust for wealth, infuses the feat Allah in man’s heart and makes one amenable to good deeds. The Holy Qur’an says: “And away from it (Hell) shall be kept the most pious one, who gives away his wealth in order to purify himself.” (XCIL:17-18) On another occasion Allah addresses and exhorts the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) in these words: “Take alms of their wealth, wherewith you may cleanse and purify them.” (9: 103) These verses make the real importance of Zakat quite clear: it aims to emancipate the heart from temporal preoccupations and purifies the soul. It is an acknowledged fact that the love of material things is the real enemy of prayer. It turns a man away from Allah and the After-life. The Holy Prophet once said: “The root of all evil is the love of worldly things.” (Mishkat) Although temporal love includes many things the most powerful and dangerous of all is the love of material wealth. The Holy Prophet has, therefore, regarded it as the greatest of all evils for the Muslims: “The trial for my Ummah is wealth.” (Tirmidhi) If a Muslim can save himself from the lure of wealth, he will be able to protect himself from many other vices. Because of its basic aim and purpose, poor- due is known as zakat in Islam. Literally it means both purification and growth. To give a portion of one’s income to the needy for the pleasure of Allah is called Zakat because it purifies the soul. It must, however, be remembered that the aim of zakat is achieved only when its payment is motivated by sincere desire and practical effort. The pleasure of Allah should be the first and foremost consideration while paying Zakat. It must be free from every other motive. Zakat should be paid out of the income earned only by fair and honest means. Whatever is paid should be respectable. If cheap and worthless stuff is given in zakat it will go in vain. It will be no better than a hypocritical gesture. Zakat’s beneficiary should neither be made to feel grateful for it, nor should his feelings
and self-respect be hurt. Otherwise, Zakat will cease to have any meaning. One secondary objective of the poor-due is to provide basic necessities to poor Muslims. The Holy Prophet said: “Verily Allah has ordained the payment of Zakat on them (Muslims). It will be taken from the rich and returned to the poor.” (Muslim) These Traditions make it quite obvious that there is also a social and economic aspect of the poor-due without which its Islamic concept remains incomplete. The other secondary objective of Zakat is the help and support of Islam. While giving the details of the beneficiaries of Zakat the Holy Qur’an says: “The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and for those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors and for the cause of Allah, and for the wayfarers.” (9:60)

No one is saying that Zakat is an evil thing. As a non-muslim, I even practice Zakat. The fact just remains that a poor man can not partake in Zakat.

justaqad: there is NOT A SINGLE statement in the Qur’an, whereby
believers are commanded to enslave other human beings, and as
the Qur’an has called for freeing of slaves as a meritorious act,
alleviated their status by way of marriage as well as economic
support, and declared that servitude is due to God alone (51:56)
and no human being, no matter how high a status he may occupy, that status be of a Prophet of God even, has the right to say to
people ‘be my slaves’ (3:79), it is wrong to suggest that the Book
sanctions slavery.

Yawn.

Who was Rayahna? A slave or a free person.


Did Muhammad have slaves, yes or no?

justaqad: hajj and zakat are obligated on those who can afford it,how is it a burden on the poor?

Who said it is a burden on the poor? Two pillars of Islam that the poor can not partake in. Face it, your religion is not for the poor.

[quote author=Bélla3]Can u imagine? So becos u evolved from monkey, u don turn baboon[/quote]

LagosShia: it is only that the tension has died down and europe is fast becoming more irreligious by abandoning christianity altogether.religion doesn't play the role in daily life it used to play before.ofcourse,through this reality Islam in europe is gaining as europeans turn to look for a replacement and a number of them have embraced Islam.

Lol. Dream on. Europe will never accept Islam. After the Danish cartoon incident, Europe is never ever going to accept Sharia. Religious freedom in Europe will allow you to follow your religion of Islam but muslim immigrants are now facing tough times in Europe. Furthermore, governments are clamping down on any radical cleric they find preaching "hate".


One thing you should understand is that Europe has a good history of systematically destroying groups of people whether it's the Jews being gassed by Nazis or the Native American Indians murdered by European settlers. While I do not believe in genocide and do not support it, I never underestimate the power of governments to be destructive. Sharia is pushing governments to the wall; Danish cartoons, banning of the veil in france, crackdown on polygamy in Uk etc.


I will sit back and watch what happens.

justaqad: and whats ur point exactly?

Derp derp.

Islam is not for poor people.


https://derper.com/images/derp/Derp_Lips.png

justaqad: flexibility of islam....
: “On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.” (Surat al-Baqara, 2:286)

Explain how slavery is a burden any human can bear. Did God allow people to be slaves and eunuchs because it is bearable? Remember that slavery isnt haraam in the Quran.

Religion makes one heartless.

LagosShia, confess your lies. You keep getting exposed. You are lucky that Vedaxcool is not here to finish the job.

There is serious religious persecution of minorities in Iran.

justaqad: like?

Well, Toba is not a god debater. Whatever he throws at Allah/Islam can be thrown back at him since he is a christian. It's not like the bible is perfect


I'm an atheist. Justaqad, would you mind debating me on a new thread? I can start a new thread on th topic of errors in Islam/Quran. Would you agree to that?

At least, a poor muslim man would not be likely to be polygamous. Cant afford to maintain wives

toba: are there differences between shia and sunnis? can a shia pray in the same mosque as the sunnis?

Do they share the same ideology? if yes, why is Lagosshia against other muslims here?

The guys here are always slow to respond. I wonder if they have to go to clerics or prepare before they talk to infidels. Some Dawah stuff

LagosShia: @brentkruge

The first example you gave is that of a muslim working for the UN (america's political tool).you should have also given us the iranian govt. perspective.and please don't tell me he is muslim.there are a number of muslim traitors and sell-outs.when the egyptian Muhammad al baradei refused to finger iran,the US replaced him as head of IAEA. The first instance doesn't belong to this thread.the bahai and apostacy issues have already being discussed and they are political issues.please do not try to derail my thread by displaying your stupidity here.thanks.

Whatever. Please create another thread apologising for your lies. Since you are a muslim, lying is a sin.


There is serious religious persecution in Iran on religious minorities. Tell the truth LagosShia

brentkruge: OK, so the jew was holdup in Iran, facing Iranian TV, singing government praises (as we do in Naija). Lets examine some of the reports from the republic shall we;


So much for freedom in Iran..... Lie on LagosShia!

LagosShia, nobody believes your propaganda about minorities in Iran. Religious mnorities suffer in Iran.


I like the way you keep getting shamed.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Actually, last time I checked, religion was a choice and people have been known to change religions and turn atheist and turn religious again. Also cloth-wearers have been known to change clothes and go [i]n[/i]ude. I believe my analogy parallels cyrexx's[/quote]A nudist is a non-conformist. All clothed people wear clothes because they conform to the idea that one should not be naked as it is not civil. Te green shirt man and the red shirt man wear clothes for the same basic reason. However, the nudist doesnt share their reason. This is not like atheism and christianity and Paganism. The atheist disbelieves in God for the same reason that a christian doesn believe in Pagan gods or pagans dont believe in the christian god.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Still the same thing, The argument is still lacking any logical sense. It creates false binaries. Especially hen the Teetotaler says we are all Teetotalers, I am Teetotaler to alcohol s you are teetotaler to drugs. This rubbishes the meaning of the word "teetotaler".
Please this is so basic, I really can't believe I am having to explain it.[/quote]You made my argument for me. It doesnt rubbish the logic. If someone told you that he is a teetatoler to ganja/weed, you would understand the meaning. If a christian says that he is atheistic towards Zeus, you would understand the logic. So shut up, you have been pawned

maclatunji: Logicboy, your questions will be answered at a very auspicious time in your life (I hope not though ), keep asking questions.

You're not the first to make such comments. This leaves me to wonder if Allah will reveal himself to me or that religious people can not answer my simple questions.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@Cyrexx, No offence intended but this is by far the silliest argument I have known you to come up with. It is similar to saying something like this:

"We are all na[i]k[/i]ed. I am na[i]k[/i]ed but if you are wearing a red shirt then you are also na[i]k[/i]ed to blue, yellow, green and every other shirt, I am only wearing one less shirt than you." This is not a sensible argument, It is either you are clothed or you are naked.

Please stop pushing this, it is not painting you in a good light at all.[/quote]I actually like you too. You make good points when arguing. However, I think your analogy doesnt fit with the issue. The atheists is saying that the theist doesnt believe in other gods for the same reason the atheist doesnt believe in the theist's god. A nudist man doesnt wear clothes because he dislikes conformity. A man wearing black doesnt wear green out of choice.

A better analogy is; a Teetotaler (one who doesnt drink) telling an alcholic that the alcoholic doesnt take other recreational drugs for the same teason the teetotaler doesnt drink alcohol.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol, You really are entertaining indeed. The day you start using logic, then I will start taking you seriously. At the moment, you are as far from logic as anyone can possibly be. Your username is an amusing misnomer[/quote]Ad hominem much?

maclatunji: Her husband will take care of her or she will take care of herself.

In my humble opinion, you are a very intelligent person but you are quite disingenuous. You know the truth about polygamy but are not willing to say it.

maclatunji: What makes you think second or more wives want state benefits? Ok, you and me may prefer monogamy but the people that want polygamy are allowed except of course in your brain.

Married couples with children can claim tax reductions. A 2nd or 3rd polygamous wife will be taxed at a higher rate because she is not eligible for such deductions.