₦airaland Forum

quote author=Tcwork post=96926546]
Neither you or I know.
We don't know him, we can't tell if he had been previously baptized. We don't know his name.
So you may not be right trying to make Jesus look like a liar.
Jesus Christ can never lie. If he says a man must be born of water and then the spirit before administration to the kingdom of God, he meant it.
Also you need to know that paradise is not same as the kingdom of God. Even though this is another topic

Lol..... You’re one hell of a funny man. Jesus never said a man must be born of “water” before being administered into His kingdom. For your information, I already did a post on the verse above which you misapplied. I explained everything there. Just go through my profile and search it out. I hope it blesses you.

[quote author=Tcwork post=96919625]The thief on the cross did water baptism, abi?

author=Tcwork post=96907478]
Acts 9.18

You must know the difference between water baptism and being baptized in the name of the Lord.

“Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

One of the several meanings of baptism is to be immersed into something, which is not always water.

When a man hears the gospel and believes, he’s instantly baptized(immersed) into the body of Christ . This has nothing to do with water.

In the foregoing, and many other instances in the book of Acts, Paul heard the gospel and believed and was baptized (NOT With water) into the body. This is when he was officially welcome into the body of Christ. You can’t become a member unless you’re immersed into the body of members.

Here are other instances:

“Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:41‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The instances above are not water baptism but baptism into the body, which is the same as baptism into the name of the Lord.

When it came to water baptism, water was mentioned and it was clear, precise and unequivocal. There are only two instances:

“Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


““Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? ””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:47‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

quote author=[quote]Tcwork post=96906400]

Where exactly? Chapter and verse please

quote author=Tcwork post=96906445]
Oh oh oh.. your point has been that baptism is no longer relevant anymore. Wow. This is a first time.
Would you mind some scriptural backing?

Read all my posts on this thread

quote author=Tcwork post=96904738] More than twice. Remember Paul was baptized

Give scriptural backing

quote author=Tcwork post=96904694]I do not know If I am understanding you. Are you saying that baptism is no longer relevant or that the mode of baptism is lost from the scripture or what really?

It’s no longer relevant

And I stand to be corrected that water baptism was only performed twice in the book of Acts. The first was done by Phillip with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 , and the second is Peter in the house of Cornelius in Acts 10. That should tell you something.

quote author=freshboi88 post=96898846]

Wrong interpretation of scripture.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues b and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Read 47, after the Holy Spirit had fallen on them, Peter still water baptized them. So your point is nullified

Before you start jumping up and down, note this.
The problem most Christians have is that they don’t read the Bible together. Reading the Bible together means reading the whole book from Genesis to revelation consistently, so as to get a better understanding.

Kenneth Hagin once said this:

“ You can’t build a doctrine around the book of acts because the narratives revolve around a young church that had not fully understood the finished work “.


I totally agree with him on this.

Why?

Because the early church didn’t get everything right at the early stage. It is an eyewitness account and not a book of revelation which can be used for doctrines. They made mistakes. They learnt, unlearned and relearned.


Examples?

“But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:35‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I’m sure Peter had wished he didn’t make the above statement because God doesn’t accept those who WORK righteousness. He accepts those that have faith in Christ Jesus.

I could give you more instances where they initially got it wrong.


Now consider this:

“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:14-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What!

A whole Apostle is thanking God he only baptized a few. He went on further to say Christ didn’t send him to baptize. This is when the full revelation came, when they finally realized the significance of water baptism.

quote author=freshboi88 post=96781024] I know there have been countless arguments about the acceptable mode of baptism biblically.

While some say immersion is the only acceptable mode, Others believe pouring and sprinkling are also acceptable.

Christians what's your take on this?. Opinions have to go with scriptural backing o not just dogmatic ideas.

Jesus didn’t command you to be baptized, so it’s unnecessary. Water baptism was just a shadow or typology of the Holy Spirit baptism. Once the real deal appears, the shadow must disappear.


“But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭13:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬




The Bible affirms there’s only one baptism

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Every cardinal ordinance, including water baptism, was to point to Christ.

Therefore, every of those ordinances must cease to be after the death and resurrection of Christ.

[quote author=gud4vvvvv post=96552691]I'm confused here...
in Paul's epistle to the Galatians, that is in chapter 2 he wrote about people being put right with God by not our righteousness but by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.he went on to write about people receiving what God promised as far as they belong to Jesus but James in James chapter 2vs20 it's written thus: you fool! do you want to be shown that faith without work is dead? He went on to write about Abraham's offering of Isaac. in verse 22 he wrote about Abraham's offering and faith being the reason why God blessed him. This two seems to be contradictory to me or do you think the word of God suppose to be contradictory?
your genuine clarification is needed here. thanks in advance.

The two apostles wrote about two different things and so one didn’t contradict the other. Paul wrote about justification by faith before God while James wrote about “justification“ by works before man. When James wrote that faith without works is dead, he meant if a man claims to have faith, yet without works, such faith is dead, that is barren or unproductive with respect to the man in need. This he tried to illustrate in James 2:14-16

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If a man in need comes to you for help and you send him away saying, “faith will bring all you need”, without rendering the help needed by this man, then such faith is barren because it can not save the man in need. Such faith doesn’t profit him. It’s only acts of kindness rendered in love that will save this man from his misery or need.

No way did James write that a man with faith without works is not saved, or that this man will lose his salvation. He only stated that faith is meant to be accompanied with works, and that when faith is mixed with works , faith finds its full expression.

“Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I hope this helps.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=95129128]

Where does the Bible say that anybody will ever be saved by their own works?

This is what I read in the Bible myself:

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)

And, as you mentioned in your edit, Revelation 7:13-14 is clear that it is by the blood of Jesus, that is, by faith in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus that these believers who come out of the Tribulation are said to have been saved. So, your position flies in the face of Scripture.

Edited.

If you had asked me what being saved by works meant, then I would have explained to you instead of making an assumption. You're doing the same thing you accused me of. I'll not respond to you again.

quote author=HedwigesMaduro post=95118365]

So what does Christ mean in Matthew 24 by "those that endure to the end shall be saved"? I'm just curious.

My brother, to have a clear understanding of this, we'll have to read from the beginning of the chapter, and consequently bring the quoted verse into context.



“Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬





In Matt. 24: 3, the disciples asked Jesus three questions. “When will this happen?” referring to the Temple’s destruction, “What will be the sign of your coming?” referring to the 2nd Coming, “And of the End of the Age?” referring to the events leading up to the Kingdom Age.

In Matthew’s account there’s no answer to the first question, only to the last two. Luke began his account the same way as Matthew. The Luke account begins at Luke 21: 6

In Matthew 24: 13, Jesus says, ” But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”.

The question we need to ask ourselves is, who was Jesus referring to?

Obviously, He wasn't referring to believers because the Church would have been raptured at this time. He was referring to those that would be saved by works left behind after the rapture.


“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So this verse clearly teaches that some Gentiles will be saved during the great tribulation. Unlike the Church which is saved by grace through faith, these ones will be saved by their own works. This is the category of people Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24: 13.

Shalom!

quote author=Kobojunkie post=95108416] The letter to the Hebrews is attributed to Paul, and since I was never there to witness the actual writing of the letters, I can only say that it was likely him too.

But don't get me wrong now! Whether it was written by Paul or Barnabas, or even Bar-Jesus, it means little to me. What matters more than all that is the authenticity of the opinions stated in those letters. Do the opinions have much bearing on the truth of God or are they simply just that, opinions of another who supposedly walked with God almost 2000 years ago?

Earlier in this thread, you posted this :



What view? It was a letter that Paul wrote to the Hebrew believers in his day. And yes, it matters a great deal who wrote what. Because by examining the writing, you can better understand the person's journey and views as at the time of the writing. In Paul's case, reading through many of his letters, you find that hebrews definitely seemed tailored to a different audience than say, his other letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians or even the Philippians.

Now we have another version of you :

But don't get me wrong now! Whether it was written by Paul or Barnabas, or even Bar-Jesus, it means little to me.

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94974484]

It's a view that I (among others) share too, although I am surprised to hear that it only has 8 chapters. Perhaps someone reorganized it differently in some Bibles?

But what difference really does it make who wrote it?

It makes a whole lot of difference to me; everything in the Bible does. It's one thing to share a view, it's another to make a categorical statement, without basis or proofs.

We must be careful of the little foxes and leaven- a situation where we see some things as important and some as not important. We may finally arrive at that point where everything doesn't make a difference. The goodness of God doesn't make a difference, new creation reality doesn't make a difference, even salvation through faith in Christ Jesus may eventually not make any difference.

When it comes to the writer of Hebrews, I have my views about it. I used to think it was Paul, but now I believe he wasn't the writer. Evidence?

1. No introduction. There was a way Paul would always declare his authorship of an Epistle in the Bible......

“Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This trend is customary of Paul, and he was consistent with this practice in all of his epistles.
If the book of Hebrews was an exceptional case, then there should be a proof to support that.


2. The writing style used by the writer of Hebrews is totally different from that found in Paul's epistles.

3. Lastly, let's consider this verse in the book of Hebrews:


“how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The writer States here that the doctrine of salvation was confirmed to them by those who heard Christ. But let's examine the words of Paul,


“But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:11-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What's he saying here ?

He didn't receive the Gospel from man, so it couldn't have been confirmed to him by those who heard Christ. The confirmation is the revelation he received from Jesus Christ. He heard it directly from Christ. The writer of Hebrews didn't hear it directly from Christ, but from men. On this basis, Paul is not the writer of Hebrew.

But then, I may be wrong and I may be right. Nevertheless, I've presented what I believe are strong arguments.

So if anyone is posting, let such come up with statements backed by scriptures and persuasive reasonings.

Imagine someone saying Judas and Gehazi we're saved simply because they followed Christ and a servant of God respectively. Such submission is not only misleading, it's also heretic. It means any man that follows a man of God is automatically saved!

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94974444]

I don't know about learning from one another. We are all responsible to submit to one pastor-teacher whom we have tested and proven to be reliable and learn from that person (1 Corinthians 4:15-16, cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4). But we can certainly walk together and become better at understanding the things we learn from our pastor-teachers when we try to help each other without imposing our own will and understanding on others.

As I said before, I don't see that he did anything wrong, since he only posted a passage. Whatever he thought it meant, it was just a quote without an interpretation. My response was in order to forestall any misunderstanding or misconception of the passage for anyone who cares. I see nothing here to warrant the response that you have given thus far. Perhaps indeed he had the wrong ideas about the passage, but he didn't share those ideas, not before he and I started talking anyway. Perhaps it wasn't the clearest passage to post for the subject that he put forward, but the better response would have been a question rather than an assumption.

Still, I have great respect for any zeal displayed for God's Truth, so it is good that you stood up for the Truth. I only urge you to be a little more compassionate toward those who share in the Truth with you.

Yes, we submit to one pastor and teacher but that doesn't mean we can't learn from someone outside of them. Whoever the teacher is, the Bible must always be the final judge.


Just yesterday, someone who has never been my teacher nor pastor mentioned something contrary to what I initially believed. Immediately I searched the scripture and did some word study, and realized the man was right and I had always been wrong.

And then, I'm in no way imposing my view or understanding on anyone. The fact still remains the right Scripture must be used to support a doctrine. Whether that doctrine is right or heretic is another matter entirely.

As to your claim that I made an assumption concerning the intention of the op, I would say it's only the op that can make such claim, not you.

quote author=Kobojunkie post=94985274] It was his letter to the Hebrew followers of Jesus Christ.

What is the proof?

quote author=Kobojunkie post=94913830]
I have! The letter Paul wrote to the Hebrews is only 8 chapters

So Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. That's a new one.

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94944200]

I see. Well, that clarification was made, and I think that it was accepted. But we are all fellow believers and there is no need for a quarrel in this particular matter.

There’s no quarrel at all. Far from it. We all learn from one another. It's part of the growing process. The moment we cease to be teachable, we are no longer a disciple

However, others read what we post. Some are babes, some are agnostics. We must be very careful what we post so as not to mislead them, or make them even more confused.

Like someone once said, a Bible verse or sentence must not be given a life of its own. It derives its true meaning from the surrounding sentences.

The scholar must not give wings to Bible verses and make them fly somewhere.

“holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The foregoing is what we must adhere to.

Shalom.

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94914877]



Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

Exactly my point !

quote author=haddeylium post=94913520]


Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Eternal Salvation is for people that Obey or Disobey Christ?

What does it mean to obey Christ in the context of this verse?

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94914877]

I would certainly hope that it is. One ought to be genuinely repentant after one has sinned. That is my teaching too.

Sinning wilfully per Hebrews 10:26-27, however, is actually rejecting the Cross in favor of Moses in that context, because that is what Paul was warning his fellow Jews about in that letter. In other words, it is the sin of unbelief that he meant, not just any wilful sinning.

If he meant that whenever we sin wilfully or continue to sin without repenting, for example, lying knowing that we are lying or indulging in porneia arrogantly, then we are no longer saved, then there is a question what all the teaching in the Bible about divine discipline and confession and forgiveness is all about.

I'm in agreement with you, I hope you understand. I was only looking to expand what you said in accordance with what I see in the Bible.

The Lord be with you.

My point is, the op definition of ”sinning wilfully” is totally different from the Bible meaning. The writer of Hebrews gave the meaning at the beginning of that chapter. For the life of me, I honestly don't understand why Christians should give their own meanings and interpretations to Bible passages. This is deceitful to say the least.

quote author=davidinchrist post=94913688]

Friend, eternal life is to know God; to know God is to obey his Words or abide in him to the END. Otherwise, we are not saved. You and some others might like to consider some more verses below, if you wish to:


John 15:6 KJV
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:21 KJV
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Matthew 24:13 KJV
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

There are many more; remember Judas was once saved right?

Anyway, you don't need to agree with me in any case.

Peace.

And who told you Judas was ever saved?

quote author=ublight post=94912556]

have you read d entire book of hebrews?

A very good question. The op fails to realize that taking a text out of context, and giving it a meaning that was never intended, is even more dangerous.

quote author=iruoghene7 post=94847980]Simply put, without faith it is impossible to please God, and faith we know is a revelation and that's what Cain didn't have.
He isn't Adam's son to begin with, but the son of the serpent. He didn't receive the revelation that sin can only be atoned for by blood, but able did.

You know your Bible jare

quote author=Moblux post=94825333]

It was the condition of his heart and not the elements of the sacrifice

what condition?

quote author=MoR2 post=64755760] what if person use sword like saul

anyway bro deut 21:23 didn't say anyone who hangs himself o i wonder wetin you they quote sef.

whoever is hanged (likely as a punishment to a person for a crime) like jewish stoning.

so are you saying that God doesn't forgive all sins (apart from trashtalking the holy spirit) when you are a believer?

Trashtalking the Holy Spirit is not the unforgivable sin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbCBXV_B3ig

[quote author=HeavenlyHolines post=94204529]My brother, thank you ooo. I wonder the kind of doctrine Christians developed these days. I have tried to convince them about these same issue and restitution but all to no avail. That is why these days,u find many online pastor supporting divorce and remarriage on social media using the doctrine of 'God's love' to mislead people that is God is so kind and loving, he will overlook this and that. We use be careful with the way we counsel people on social media.
There was an argument one time about a Christian marrying a Muslim and many so called Christian were saying it doesn't matter if love is there. I had to chat with the guy privately and yanked that wrong doctrine from him. Thank God he accepted. God will help us. Shalom

The problem some christians have while interpreting the Bible is their failure to apply the rule of context, while also ignoring the audience to which the instruction is meant for.

Many years ago, my sister had some men requesting to marry her. All these men were Christians except one that was a Muslim. To everyone’s surprise she chose the Muslim. When asked the reason for her choice, she told us it was God that made the choice for her.

She told us she heard the voice of the Lord clearly. Fast forward 28 years after, the one that was a Muslim is now a Spirit-filled minister of God.

I’m sure if my sister was your sister, you would have quoted the following verse to her when she made that decision.

“Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭6:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is the summary of the whole thing:

Don’t be so dogmatic that you ignore the voice of the Spirit.

Shalom!

quote author=HeavenlyHolines post=94160501]Is restitution mandatory for a Christian or not?

Look my friend, the Christian life is not lived by observing a set of rules or commandments.

The only commandment given to the believer is love.

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13:34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Therefore, every action must be love-filtered. It’s not about being mandatory or not. It’s about love triumphing over laws. This love must also lead to peace.

You judge this for yourself. A Muslim married three wives. He became a Christian. You say this man should divorce the last two wives and maintain the first.

The question is, have you acted in love?

How would these two women feel? Certainly you’ll hurt their feelings and they will be bitter for the rest of their lives. Remember the Bible says love works no ill to his neighbor.

“But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.”
‭‭James‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So, where is the love, and where is the peace?

[quote author=HeavenlyHolines post=94157158]Philemon 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account; 1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides. Thanks and God bless u.

Don’t you understand this simple thing ? Paul wasn’t trying to obey a law . He was only acting as a peacemaker.