₦airaland Forum

TIDDOLL:
Hmmm..
Nice write up!

Deep in every writer's mind, lies an artistic expression.
He is not bitter, i see a writer flexing his prowess!!

That is the least of what I see. I see the writer showing us that what "glitters" blinds us to slavery

crafteck:
Funny enough the man made sensible points, greed blinds us all

Unfortunately these generation of "Yoots" do not see it........and they are out to lynch him. Well I long gave up on the "Yoots", generation of dullards; lost generation, lost moral compass and values

laudate:
Who asked you for a long epistle? Was it because you were so desperate seeking for cheap attention, that you had to respond with this pathetic treatise? Niggah, puhl-eeze! You are even more comical than I thought?

....at least this put things in right perspective, especially where I should place you........a comic relief

See my reactions below

laudate:
There is nothing wrong with expressing scepticism or doubt, when bogus figures are being bandied around, without supporting facts. So stop gloating like a retar.d. The Nigerian govt gave a total sum for buying the planes, without a breakdown of the inputs and added components making up the sum.

I cannot be responsible for your coming up short, making lame analysis and submissions that beggars resonable and sound belief. Should I be responsible for you relying on unreasonable quotes you claimed someone submitted from wiki as a basis of your argument on cost when you could by yourself google to find a veritable comparative pricing? Nigerian govt gave a total sum for buying the planes, you say, without a breakdown of the inputs and added components making up the sum......this to me is the evidence of your inadequacies. It seems your limitation in rationalizing things knows no bounds. You want to be spoon-fed? you cannot reason or what? makes me wonder why should I even waste time with/on you.


Other sources online showed that the unit cost of the Tucano planes, were vastly different from what the govt quoted. And you expect everyone to swallow it hook, line and sinker without any questions? Niggah, puh-leeze!

Lemme guess, you mean the random one from wikipedia or google? You cannot be this shallow! I would have expected that you make a comparative analysis with similar military purchase with related scope. I ask again, was Nigerian Airforce invoiced from wikipedia?

I respect people who make enquiries and confront issues with facts and verifiable info, instead of those who make excuses and try to gloss over issues, because they believe their leaders in govt are infallible. Deomelo went out of his way to bring additional factors to light, by giving a detailed breakdown, which you failed to do, and changed the narrative by shedding more light on the subject.

....so you expect me to help your inadequacies like Deomelo has done? unfortunately I do not have that kind of patience. Unfortunately for you, I unlike you do not need to be spoon-fed on what should ideally be basic reasoning.

What did you do? You went on a fishing expedition prattling the word 'configuration,' up and down, as if that was a criteria for such widely divergent sums, being expended in the purchase of the Tucano.
prattling configuration? It is now that I see that you're dumber than I imagine. I can conclude that you do not read, neither do you diligently verify the facts you so claim; if not, you would have seen that the so-called google/wiki reference you and your dumb ipob ilks bandied left a rider.. "..... the price can go much higher depending on the configuration". I was only calling attention to the fact that you lot kept quoting $10m, are left out the concluding part

I have no apologies, for asking questions and querying the assumptions made on this thread. If it offends you...too bad! Now kindly do me a favour & get off my mentions, if you have nothing intelligent to say!

Obviously what am I going to do with your needless apologies. That you came up short in itself is comical enough.

deomelllo:

laudate: :


In global supply chain circles, whoever did the procurement and negotiation for these planes, that led to a 3-fold increase in the final cost of the planes, would be sacked on the spot. sad Training and maintenance/first-level servicing skills are often offered as a free bundle alongside the price, for such machinery, for a limited period of time. Unless we can see a breakdown of the BoQ, or spares along with their prices, it would be premature to attribute the 3-fold increase, to just these things.

As for parts and spares, it is unlikely that parts would be bought for every single item or every single plane in the fleet. undecided What often happens, in the case of heavy-duty machinery and specialised equipment, is that where multiple units are ordered together at the same time, parts are bought for a percentage of them - maybe half of them. It is unlikely that all planes in the fleet would go bad at the same time, or develop identical faults within the same period, except if there is a design flaw. sad There is also a warranty which lasts for like 6 months - 1 year on sich specialised equipment. undecided I still say, there is something the Presidency, is not telling us....

The Lebanese Army received the first two A-29B Super Tucano light attack aircraft from the U.S. on Oct. 31 during a handover ceremony held at Hamat Air Base, north of the capital Beirut.

The two aircraft are the first of six that will be provided by the U.S. to the Lebanese Army within the framework of the military aid program to the country.

“The A-29’s advanced technology provides [Lebanese Armed Forces] precision-guided munitions and advanced precision-strike capability,” said U.S. Ambassador Elizabeth Richard during a speech at the event. “The LAF will now be able to conduct joint combined arms maneuvers in all conditions, day and night, in a way that greatly reduces the risk of collateral damage and the danger to noncombatants.”


In all, the aid is worth about $240 million, including basic cost of the aircraft ($204 million), the cost of ammunition and armament ($10 million) and the cost of the training ($12 million)

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dubai-air-show/2017/11/02/us-delivers-first-a29-super-tucano-aircraft-to-the-lebanese-army/

Lebanon paid $240 million for 6 Super Tucano = $240 million ÷ 6 = $40 million

That's $40 million/1 Super Tucano.

That's 4 times the so-called $10 million unit Cost


Nigeria is buying 12 = $496 million ÷ 12 = $41 million

That's $41 million/1 Super Tucano

Obviously, we paid almost the same amount Lebanon paid for each Super Tucano. So, is the Lebanese government hiding something also?

On top of that, have you factored in the fact that hangar, facilities, and infrastructure required to support the program for 12 aircraft are part of the cost apart from training, guns, bombs, missiles, radar/avionics and so on?


Oga laudate, shey this ipobian comment and type of argument is really coming from you or ipobs hijack your handle ni? The sky is always the limit per whatever options and requirements you desire....


It's OK to be suspicious and cynical about government actions based on our history, but we shouldn't when facts are available to draw from, we can not even pull such shady shenanigans directly with the US government, that's asking the FBI to investigate, indict and levy sanctions..

This is a government to government transaction with zero middlemen to cut corners and or wiggle out corrupt funds and the US government acknowledge the payments.

Even this report puts a typical unit cost of each plane at about $34m. Our IPOB youth will not do diligent work.....be brandishing useless numbers #upandan

laudate:

deomelllo: :
You raised objections per 3 times the original cost and I showed you facts that Lebanon paid 4 times the unit cost.

I do understand the need to shift your goal post to SPECS, but you should have inserted specs into your initial comment about cost and even going by available facts, Nigeria is getting beyond what other countries are getting because apart from mounted guns, precision and guided bombs and missiles, radar, avionics, cameras and so on, we're getting ground support equipment, and hangar, facilities, and infrastructure required to support the program for 12 aircrafts.


lol @ ipob hijacking your handle. No disrespect, this is just the kind of comments ipobs litter NL with..,

My initial response was actually made in response to another poster's direct comment. Prior to that, someone had posted a screenshot of the cost of a Tucano jet, showing that it costs about $9 million to $14 million USD, per plane. This just threw up a lot of questions, when compared with the total amount that Nigeria was reported to have spent on the jets. Hope this clarifies the issue.

Arguing on this premise itself is very ignorant...... I had earlier asked those who posted that estimate that was the Nigerian Airforce invoiced through google search or wikipedia? Bros, we need to up the ante in our level of analysis. "Critique" is a "necessary pill", a necessary assessment tool, but when the basis of critique is faulty, any argument based on such is faulty

laudate:
In global supply chain circles, whoever did the procurement and negotiation for these planes, that led to a 3-fold increase in the final cost of the planes, would be sacked on the spot. Training and maintenance/first-level servicing skills are often offered as a free bundle alongside the price, for such machinery, for a limited period of time. Unless we can see a breakdown of the BoQ, or spares along with their prices, it would be premature to attribute the 3-fold increase, to just these things.

As for parts and spares, it is unlikely that parts would be bought for every single item or every single plane in the fleet. What often happens, in the case of heavy-duty machinery and specialised equipment, is that where multiple units are ordered together at the same time, parts are bought for a percentage of them - maybe half of them. It is unlikely that all planes in the fleet would go bad at the same time, or develop identical faults within the same period, except if there is a design flaw. There is also a warranty which lasts for like 6 months - 1 year on sich specialised equipment. I still say, there is something the Presidency, is not telling us.....

Are you for real? Global Supply chain circles? wtf is that? This is when I see knowledge grossly misapplied. Bros, spare me this supply chain explanation, it is contextually not what is in play...... You rightly argue in part that since we do not have a breakdown analysis of the scope (BoQ you call it)of this project........., one would expect you to surmise that without the scope you can hardly argue the absolute cost, yet came to the conclusion a 3-fold increase. You cannot be making assumptions when you do not and cannot put the scope of the project into perspective. You are just making things up. Look up reports and get a sense of the coverage of this project.

This is a govt-govt deal for Christ's sake. This is not a middle-man/black-market weapons contract. If you cannot see beyond your limited view and want to reduce this to some charade reminiscent of your company's procurement contract, then good luck.

laudate:
Would the configuration cost 3 times the original price of the plane? There is something the Presidency is not telling us....!

It depends on how you are looking at it. You need to unpack what you call "configuration". The Presidency needs "not tell us" what we can figure out, if we look critically. Projects of this nature requires you acquire the planes, acquire knowledge and expertise on maintenance, retrofitting and servicing. It requires you stock up a defined level of parts for serving and replacements. It requires you stock up weapons (bombs and missles) in large quantities, especially now that we are at war and will be for a while more.

Feel free to pick some of this from reuters

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-usa/nigeria-says-u-s-agrees-delayed-593-million-fighter-plane-sale-idUSKBN1EL1EN

Krucifax:
You're an agent of darkness you and the 3 zombies liking your comment. Your comment and flawed attempt at a justification argument is entirely without merit and totally bereft of any reason or logic.
Let's visit my first point again: If you know anything at all about government and constitutional law you would have heard of the phrase "checks and balances".
We run a democracy not a dictatorship. Section 80 of the 1999 Constitution can not be superseded by your "unreferenced" quote. The President can not willy nilly dip his hands into the National coffers without due procedure. We are not a banana republic as people like you seem to think. The law clearly mandates the involvement of the National Assembly (Even in war times) which we are not. So no my perverse minded friend there is no justification,legal precedent or grounds for what President Buhari did.

The second point: Your response is laughable. Please do your research. If you are unable let me help you.
A Super Tucano Aircraft costs between $9-14 Million max. This costs a maximum of $168 Million for 12 units. Remaining $328 Million. Even factoring in delivery,maintenance and other logistics how can you say it costs twice as much to maintain machinery than to buy it? Either way this is a moot point and not the subject matter as we are not privy to private discussions between the parties.
What we do know however is the law which holds every citizen of Nigeria to account. A law clearly broken by the dictatorial tendency of President Buhari.
I am no fan of the National Assembly however the calls for an impeachment of the President is very well justified.

Your first submission in a supposed intellectual discussion is ". "You are an agent of darkness" D ;
People are you are those who struggle with use of intellect and get frustrated. Thank you for tell us about "checks and balances".....unfortunately the discussion left that elementary level "years ago", yet you're still clutching at straws. Let me keep this simple, I will give you as assignment. My "unreferenced" quote is what you should go find out. Unfortunately, many of you are simply ignorant kids, you make lame arguments that shows limitations in knowledge.

Let's look at your first submission again. Do you think the law is as static. Does the National Assembly have a say over ECA? what does the law say about provision for expenses pending the approval of the budget How do salaries and basic expenses come from during the period?

2. Your second analysis on the Tunaco planes is a daft as it comes. All you needed to do was to look at other submissions people have made here and get a good sense of this deal. Stop demonstrating your lack of knowledge and exposure. The scope of this project is not some random pricing you lot picked up from google. Planes are not sold empty. Planes are not sold without softwares, licensing, stocks and parts that will last a defined period, training of local experts, weaponry (stock of bombs and missiles) and service arrangements. Have you seen the scope of this project before went into lame calculations of "between $9-14 Million max"?

What I find baffling is the your lack of control on your emotions and resort to curses. I wish you channel that energy to use of your faculty

Drnice2:
Re-read my post again & stop blaffing upandan. If you aren't seeing any loopholes there, then you must be for Change. Besides, who made you Judge over my post, telling me what I look or cherish like? Sire, Wash ur eyes, ok!

Each time your initial post is (re)read, it comes out dumber. The loophole is obviously in your shortcomings - you neither read nor comprehend (still) the report, you're arguing blind, foolishly and arrogantly. You don't even make a basic-intelligent submission. You end up qualifying as the #LazyNigerianYouth being referred to

whitebeard:
leave the ignorant fellow to keep advertising his ignorance.. But I believe Nigeria should get closer to Russia than america..Russians give us good weapons without drama..!!

Buying weapons also serve to forge alliances(Military, Trade, Economic and Humanitarian) . You don't just put all your eggs in one basket.

SalamRushdie:
Why is the Mi35 being brought to Benue instead of Borno ..

You mean they should land them in Sambisa? You can never be less comical

Mcreloaded:
Why transit through Benue knowing fully well the helicopter is destined for Kaduna unless Kaduna airport cannot accommodate the cargo plane that brought the helicopters or is it to give Benue people hope by just seeing

The problem with many of you is that you don't read at all. It just takes an ignorant fellow to ask a lame question and many of you follow suite.

First off, did the Airforce tell you that the choppers are destined for Kaduna? Meanwhile Markurdi is the major hub of Airforce engineering and the report has it that the helicopters were transported partly assembled.........

martyns303:
This is educative, OK, so what u r saying is, every year there is a provision for weapons procurement in the budget?

If yes, has it always been so, and where have all the funds gone, considering we should have had a great arsenal by now.

if not, when did they start adding this procurements in the budget.

why are most of the items listed as "second-hand", we can't afford a new one?

I read somewhere buying weapons is a process that takes years b4 the items are delivered, when was this batch ordered?

if there is a budget for these every year, why did the president take out EXTRA money to pay for the aircrafts now in debate in the Senate?

Bros,

I'm afraid, you're asking questions that the answers are already known and in the public domain.

1. That you don't know that procure of military hardware is in budget virtually every year, I find even unbelievable. You expect any typical country not to do so? Or is it that you don't read budget documents?

2. Where have all the funds gone to? We can start with Dasuki saga..... Getting a sneak peak into what some previous government(s) did with military budgets...... an avenue of massive looting.....

3. Why most listed as second-hand? Ideally there's nothing wrong with second-hand, especially if the technology is still advanced, hardware still good and taylored to our needs and pockets. When you see it listed in official documents, it's most likely that there are official discussions and agreements to it. What is despicable is when we get funding for brand new and go get second-hand that end up not working.

4. This batch was ordered 2years ago. Read the Airforce report

5.Your final question came out ignorant. Except we want to play to the gallery, politics or ethnic polarity, and there was no "extra" money taken. The FG and US govt started (re)negotiations for this deal in August 2017. Note that all thro the life of the previous govt(s), US has refused to sell us military hardware. This deal was concluded and agreed to, the cost put in the budget that was submitted in November 2017, which is yet to be passed. The proviso on the deal was that we make payment by end of February 2018 or deal was off. Now the President explored one of the "grey areas" (ECA) to make the payment, then seek a retroactive approval from the Senate, since same is already in the budget before them. Ideally if we have a serious Senate, budget should have been passed by now or better still, the section in the budget where this deal exist should have been quickly reviewed. The Senate has no hold over the ECA because it is the joint ownership and exclusive preserve of state and FG. The president is also allowed by law to make capital expenditure for urgent national purpose pending budget approval provided its with 6 months of the budget year and less than 25%.

martyns303:
who paid for them?

Ghana!

deomelllo:

rusher14: :


The Pentagon has ordered six additional Embraer/Sierra Nevada Corporation A-29 Super Tucano light attack aircraft for the Afghan Air Force (AAF), Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer Defense & Security announced in an October 25 press release.

“Production of these six new aircraft is to start immediately in Jacksonville, Florida and brings to 26 the total number of aircraft provided to the Program,” the statement reads. The U.S. Air Force has spent a total of $427 million under its so-called Light Air Support/A-29 Afghanistan Program to supply the AAF with 20 A-29 aircraft by the end of 2018. Each Super Tucano cost around $18 million.

The press release did not state a delivery date for the new A-29 Super Tucano aircraft.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/us-buys-6-more-light-attack-aircraft-for-afghan-air-force/

The ignorant ipobs get their upside down and outdated info from wiki.

The $18 million sef is before adding needed options like weapons from bombs to missiles, radar and avionics, training, parts and supplies and so on.

The $18 million plane could end up costing $50 million or more each by the time they add all the needed options and upgrades.


It's really a fact that we not only have lazy Nigeria youths, but we also have ignorant and illiterate Nigeria youths.

.....and this is when they have to deal with something basic. I will imagine that it will be rocket science for them to be able to "operate" in a basic reasoning capabilities

Permanent forfeiture loading......

Patrinus:
Please laugh away your sorrows since there's nothing forthcoming from you evidence wise that counter my comic relief. Also remember to laugh when next you're called lazy by government exploiting you.

I hear you.... ok, run along and play with your "ilks"

abeggnow:

SalamRushdie: :


So are the planes here now to tackle Boko Haram? grin I hope you know the earliest delivery dates for those plane is October 2020 and by then Buhari would be long gone ...I hope you know there are already rumoursbmaking rounds not the entire over 400 million dollars was paid to the US... can you tell me why Buhari was in a hurry to illegally release funds for a plane who nearest delivery date is more than 2 years away which defeats your excuse that he did it it save lives from Boko Haram ( a Boko Haram Buhari even claims tibheva defeated )

Nigeria paid in a hurry because the USA gave us a deafline for payment

Nope! Nigeria DID NOT pay in a hurry, but stuck to the agreed terms and deadlines,. If we do not want to continue to be #lazyNigerianYouths, then let's dig and ascertain the true position of things. As far back Nov/Dec 2017, we were all aware that negotiations was about rounding up and the terms of agreement were in public domain. Even on NL it was posted https://www.nairaland.com/4311963/fg-rejects-us-conditions-sale
So, we did know that Feb was the deadline or the deal was off....and probably for good.

Makes me wonder, this was a deal Obama put off, we had an opportunity in Trump putting it back on the table....and we think we will continue to have that "life-line"?

SalamRushdie:
Is taking money of that magnitude from govt account without parlaimentary approval as postioned by Nigerian laws not outright theft? Yes or No?


Do you know there is a very sound reason why such a law is in place?

Are you saying Buhari can keep dipping his leprous blood stained satanic fingers into the National till as he pleases without recourse to our laws?

what is even the point of your argument sef? Buhari committed a crime against our laws no matter how nice you try to paint it.

From my assessment of your antecedents, I cannot even take you serious of being capable of sound logical argument. All I see you do here is lace your post with expletives and not any attempt to reason, so why waste my time with you?

Patrinus:
Peeps be yarning dust and terming it logic. Ask your pal that has military knowledge what a highly advanced SAM is capable of doing to that ur surveillance aircraft.

I'll bet a lot that, that aircraft missile defense system is already obsolete(if it has any), little wonder Boko Haram would probably be shooting them down like pigeons.

FYI, F15 can be used for both surveillance and attack. Do your research.

One thing I take from all your countributions tho........."A comic relief"

Krucifax:
With all due respect my friend you are very very ill informed and you are part of the problem of Nigeria.
I just want to enlighten you with two points.
Point 1. Section 50 of the 1999 Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria expressly forbids the authorization or withdrawal of such sums of money without the input of the National Assembly.
This means President Buhari has broken the law and breached the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.
Point 2. The ST fighter planes in question cost a maximum of between $9 - 14 Million dollars per unit. The FG claimes they are buying between 10 and 12 units. I am sure you have a calculator. Please tell us how $14 Million x 10 or 12 equals to $495-496 Million dollars! Even factoring in kitting, maintenance,delivery and logistics the figures come no where close to what Mr President withdrew.
This is abuse of power and position. It is also corruption of the highest order and that is why Mr President and his cronies illegally bypassed the National Assembly to get the money.
Nigeria is a disgrace and people like you without facts should not be making comments as you are part of the problem confusing others that don't know the truth!

Your Point #1 is arguably rebuted by the provision of the law that gives the President executive powers to make "anticipatory budgetary spendings" in special cases within the first 6months pending the budgetary approval; provided it is not up 25% of the total budget.

Your Point #2 so stands logic on the head. You mean we will buy Tucano planes @ say $10m, $12m, $14m, $18m or whatever price you choose and that should be it? What about the weapons (guided missiles, guns and stuffs)? Are those given free? What about service agreements, stock of parts and stuffs? Do you think it stands to reason not to prepare to stock those?

....The sale of the 12 aircraft, with weapons and services, is worth $593 million, and includes thousands of bombs and rockets.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-usa/nigeria-says-u-s-agrees-delayed-593-million-fighter-plane-sale-idUSKBN1EL1EN

I will imagine that these are some of the things you should have "googled" before joining the band-wangon to make "point #s" that sort of stand logic on the head.

demitola:

Patrinus: :
Tucano ko tuscani ni.....we can't even boast of an outdated F16

Countries are buying F32 raptors and we can't even boast of F15 or F16.... simply too bad!

Dont come here and be straying the thought of people who dont know much about military hardwares. What do we need "F series" for? Are we at war with other developed nations of the world that we need air power supremacy? The Super Tucano is best suitable for our kinda security challenges right now. I dont have much time to use simple language to describe its super-special usefulness.

The dilemma on NL is that while you try to argue logical, your opponent argue on every other thing but logic. Don't stress yourself, its not worth the effort.

Mofe72:
Super tucano jets cost $9-$14 million.

Meaning 12 jets priced at 14 million = $168 million.

Who's the uninformed one now?

You mean the FG would have been invoiced from "google-search"?

olisaemeka1:
496million dollars for 12 jets and this money was withdrawn from our excess crude accounts ....the write up here states that a jet costs about 10million dollars ....do the maths Bro ....do the maths ...

he Super Tucano costs more than $10 million each and the price can go much higher depending on the configuration.

You mean you did the math and you found it convenient to ignore this bit?

agabusta:

SalamRushdie: :


So are the planes here now to tackle Boko Haram? grin I hope you know the earliest delivery dates for those plane is October 2020 and by then Buhari would be long gone ...I hope you know there are already rumoursbmaking rounds not the entire over 400 million dollars was paid to the US... can you tell me why Buhari was in a hurry to illegally release funds for a plane who nearest delivery date is more than 2 years away which defeats your excuse that he did it it save lives from Boko Haram ( a Boko Haram Buhari even claims tibheva defeated )

He already told you the US gave a deadline for payment. Why not make your findings to ascertain that from the US govt?

Seems you're about to be hitting a dead-end with this guy. For starters his argument is premised on the underlined above. That should give you an inkling into some people's level of reasoning. You will also imagine that these people understand that planes are bought based on pre-existing orders and mostly not off-the-shelf. I imagine that they do not want to know or are not willing to subject themselves to finding and understanding based on facts. All they seek to do is make dumb ascertions

jaytime:
We know say food don done for tribal fanatics, but the Thai don't know any tribe in here. It's Nigeria they know o. This is a national embarrassment so we should see it as such. Ethnicity won't take us anywhere in this country.

It has obviously taken us all the way to Thailand

ifeanyija:

Earthbound: :
"The suspect identified as Light Chinezurum Mmaramigro"



The way those officers are smirking, you know they are just really happy they don't have to deport him. He's all theirs.

and u have not identified killer herdsmen

You mean identifying "Killer herdsmen" will stop the developers from developing foreign lands

activistjohnny:
corruption embended all in the name of repairing Lagos -Ibadan express way. buhari government is disastrous. he should give account of the spendings he has been doing since 3 years ago.

How do you want him to give account when according to you he "enbended" it

semyman:
Nobody show toll that road, unless there is an alternative route. It is our money, what else is the government providing?
I heard that LCC is warming up for the tolling

Unfortunately your point was probably as belated as before you were born. At least 2 other alternate routes to Ibadan from Lagos to Ibadan had existed since the 70s

Ovamboland:

Redoil: Them want lie
Them want tell another story again
Road that gej had almost completed

Which road? Even Jonathan cannot tell this type of fat lie. Just the same way he almost completed the second Niger bridge

Are you minding Village Rats that have not left their villages, yet wan to comment authoritatively on Lagos-Ibadan expressway. I also don't blame him,GEJ and his campaign crew fraudulently used the road to campaign, yet the project is currently under 50% completion despite massive work after Fashola's intervention into major legal disputes and backlog of contractor payment outstandings

eebraa:
So an ss3 student is a pupil?

Are you sure you do not need to check the definition of a pupil?