₦airaland Forum

Concerning our agreement not post to on other tithing threads, I have complied.... but with reserve. As I said at the beginning of the preliminaries to the Discussion, I felt that request was to trap us into something that we should not be trapped in. If God wants me to post in another thread, I cannot due to the restrictions I was made to agree to. And now, this break Are they stall tactics? or is it truly because of Christmas.

If we are made to take a break from this thread, then it is my thought that we should be allowed to post in the tithing threads until at what time this Discussion thread continues.

DrummaBoy: While we await Image's presentation of R5, permit me to ask Mark Miwerds questions on his being blind; his being a believer in Christ and His not tithing.

Blind.

Sir, how did you loose your sight?

Blessings, my Brother. I was born with very poor vision. At just two years old, my mother had me in glasses due to the fact that I was constantly running into walls and objects that I should have had sense enough to avoid. LOL The doctors examined me and found I had degenerative retinas, later diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa. In 1987, my vision had deteriorated so bad that I could not see out of my left eye at all and my right eye only had tunnel vision. (less than an 18° peripheral field and greater than 20/400 with corrective lenses)

Vision went progressively worse and eventually left me in the present state I am in.

I hear that blind people have other senses well developed than those of us who see. My Pastor shared a story of his blind friend in school; how this individual always seem to be able to sense things, like detecting an approaching car, even when they could not hear or see it. Is this true sir and what are some experiences you have along these lines?

Please this discuss are a kind of interlude.

Thank you.

In my opinion, it is not that one sense is better than the other. I have just trained myself to listen to things more closely. I can go outside and listen to the surroundings as I walk. When I do, it is not necessarily that I know this is a tree and this is a signpost. But I do notice a change in the sound around me. Wind has something to do with it. I can hear the wind blowing even gently, but if I walk past a parked car, the sound changes. The wind is still blowing, but the object has blocked the sound to an extent.

Try it sometime. Walk on your sidewalk with your car out of your driveway. Do this a couple times. Then, do it with your eyes closed. You should notice no change in the sound. But then, park your car in the driveway. Close your eyes and walk slowly past it. You should notice a change in the sound.

When I pass a tree or a signpost, it is like a blip on a radar screen. If that makes any sense?

I have a brother who once walked with me to my mailbox when I was living in a city on the East Coast. Now, the way I walked was through the woods. This was the shortest path. The catch? There is a stream that I had to cross. There were no bridges on that route that I took. Yet, I had learned the route so well that I knew where the stones were in the stream. I could literally walk across that water without getting my feet wet.

And no doubt, others could too during the day when the path was lit by the sun filtering through the trees. But I always went to the mail boxes at night. My brother followed me one night, and I had to chuckle when I heard his foot hit the water. He could not see anything more than my shadow on the path and as I crossed that stream. So naturally, he could not see the stepping stones I was so accustomed to walking on. LOL

Now, the stream incident was learned not just by listening to sounds around me, but also due to repetition over time. I knew where the stones were due to the fact that friends had taken me on the path many times and taught me when I needed to take a big step or a little one. But yes, the sounds are different on that path due to multiple trees along the way.

....

A shepherd who was hired to tend to a herders flocks was not required to tithe his wages. The flocks did not belong to him. A worker hired to harvest a farmers fields was not required to tithe. The crops did not belong to him. Tentmakers, lawyers, bankers, brickmasons, etc., none of these were required to tithe from their trades. Only that which God stated in Leviticus 27:30-33 was titheable.

The pro-tithe team says that there is nothing wrong with giving tithes of agricultural produce today. That is unfortunately an attempt to patronise God. God doesn't need anybody to console him with what can be given as tithe or what he can manage as tithe because he gave the tithe laws and CLEARLY STATED WHAT TITHES he required of those he gave the tithe laws and this is contrary to what the preachers of tithe preach today. However, The Word of God tells us that the ordinances were abolished by Jesus Christ. To say there is nothing wrong with tithing today is to say the tithe preachers know more than God and to say Christians should tithe is to say Paul lied in Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14.

The pro-tithe team states that there is nothing wrong with keeping the command and we ask why they are selective in keeping these commands of God? Then distort and deform even the one they claim to obey? God says those who submit to the Law must keep the
whole Law or be cursed.

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

We cannot pick and choose what Laws we want to keep. It is either all, or none. You choose one out of all the laws and disregard all the others, you are cursed according to the above verses.


The pro-tithe team believe they are keeping the command to tithe. Yet the command to tithe is not a command to tithe money, but rather crops and livestock and surely not to give it to pastors but Levites, widows, orphans, strangers. Of course the preachers of today don't mention widows, orphans or strangers when they pay or preach tithes. Once again, why don't they?

So whose command are they keeping? Surely Not that of God and definitely not from the bible.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If they want to use the tithe format as a fund raising format for their churches, they have liberty to but it is wrong to tell folks they are failing God by not following this man made version of tithes that they preach and practice today. Since God’s Word says His Holy tithes were crops and livestock only, it is an offense to insist it is something other than what God has said. And since God's word says tithes are to be given to Levites, widows, orphans, strangers and to be eaten by the tither, it is wrong, greedy and very self serving for it to be appropriated by pastors in the name of furthering the gospel.


END

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL OF M4/M5



Our fellow discussants express amazement that we harangue them for tithing. No, we do not disturb them for tithing, same way we won't disturb them if they decide to obey Lev 23:24 by having a feast of trumpets every first day of the seventh month. What we call them out on is to at the very least, stay true to what the bible teaches on tithes and not dismember it and repackage the distortion as Christian doctrine and obligation which is being preached to uninformed children of God.

The reason that we state that the money that pro-tithers claim to be tithes cannot be tithes is totally Scripturally based. See where God gave the law on tithes


Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.


The above verses tell the reader what God said His Holy tithes consist of. Absent from that concise description given by God are the words, “silver”, “gold”, “money”, “shekel” or any other word found in the Word of God associated with money. God defined His tithes as agricultural produce and livestock. We are not so brash as to add to the Word of God anything that is not there and we admonish our opposing brethren to take heed too.


Furthermore, everywhere in the Old Testament after the passage in Leviticus 27 that tithes is mentioned, it is always in relation to food. No mention of tithes being monetary at all despite the fact that bible records Abraham of having bought Sarah's burial place with shekels of silver, at least 400 years before the tithe laws came into being.

Search and read up all the references below that relate to tithe, you WILL NOT find a single case of silver or gold being tithed. Its always crops, livestock, edibles. Even where the tither is asked to change the tithes to money because of distance, he MUST buy back the edibles when he arrived at the place of worship.

Le 27:30-32;

Nu 18:24,26,28;

De 12:6,11,17; 14:22-29; 26:12;

2Ch 31:5-6,12;

Ne 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5,12;

Mal 3:8,10;

How can one come to a conclusion that they can tithe money when God said that His tithe was something that was to be eaten? The only reference in the bible that remotely, and I mean remotely resembles tithing anything other than agric produce is the self righteous, hypocritical prayer of the Pharisee in the parable Jesus narrated in Luke 18:12. Is it sufficient to cast off other scripture on tithes because of this hypocritical prayer of a Pharisee whose lifestyle Christ evidently loathed? Are our brothers saying the Pharisees example is their scriptural guide?

The reason we state that pastors should not be teaching their congregations that they are to tithe their money to the Church, again, is because there is no instruction for the saints to do so in the New Covenant. Christians are asked to give to their brethren or leaders who need just like leaders are enjoined to provide for needy brethren among them (Acts 20:34-35), NOT TO TITHE to anybody.

Our problem is with those who state that God requires tithes from us today and then go ahead to say all categories of God's people are obligated to tithe. This is totally untrue. God only required tithes from farmers, not from the general populace and he doesn't ask tithes from Christians today because the main purpose of the tithes as a form of giving is no more. The levitical priesthood is gone, buried and has disappeared. The other tithes were for the tither, widows, orphans, strangers and its VERY CURIUOS why NO CHURCH or PASTOR ever teaches these types of tithes even when we have an abundance of this category of people all over our communities. We wonder why this is so.

While the tithe was to be lifted before the Lord as a heave offering, not all things that were heaved before the Lord were titheable. This is very clear from the scriptures our brother quoted. Someone has to really reengineer those scriptures to say otherwise. Tithes to Levites are heaved and tithes by levites to priests are also heaved, but NOT ALL HEAVE OFFERINGS ARE TITHES. To say otherwise is to twist scriptures. Leviticus 27:30-33 is clear as to what the tithe consisted of. We are very happy our fellow discussants finally agree a tithe is NOT a vow. It belongs to God already hence it can't be used as a vow. This helps prove once again that Jacob vowing to give tithes means it wasn't a REGULAR practice for him. Jacob was NOT a tither. If he was, he won't use it as a vow to bargain with God since God already owned it. That would be trying to deceive God.

While various items in Leviticus 27 were vowed and redeemed, those things mentioned prior to Leviticus 27:30 are not called tithes. Verse 30 begins with, “And all the tithe of the land” This is all inclusive. Not inclusive of the previous mentioned items in verses 1 through 29, but “all” is in reference to tithes… “all the tithes of the land.” Once again, we don't have to re-engineer those scriptures to prove any case. Let the scriptures speak for themselves. We see God then go on to explain explicitly and in detail what He means when He says, “And all of the tithes of the land”. “whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’s: it is Holy unto the Lord.”

It must be noticed that God did not say “whatever it may be,” or “whatever one chooses to tithe.” Nor did He add the injunction after “whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree,… and every tenth animal that passeth under the rod” “or of any other thing,” to that verse. No, God was specific as to what He considered titheable and what He wanted the children of Israel to tithe…the seed of the land, and the fruit of the tree, and every tenth animal that passeth under the rod.”

We are not making too much ado about anything. We are only helping our brethren stay true to the laws they claim to practice. Since they say its the 'safest thing to do', its better to do it as God almighty intended otherwise if its a punishable offense at the judgement seat, then the tither and preacher who adds to or subtracts from the tithe instituted by God are in serious danger. God said ALL the tithe of the land was crops and livestock. And He left it at that. NOBODY HAS ANY RIGHT to say otherwise.

Once again, see the verses below. They are strictly about tithes.

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed..

The pro-tithe team states that the Leviticus 27 was about vows and redemption. This is only true up to verse 29. To say vows included the tithes described in verse 30 onwards is an attempt to adjust or 'correct' the truth. I wish to remind our brothers that they said of their own volition that a tithe is different from a vow so why the stylish attempt to make vow encompass the tithe?

An example is Verse 16 which we see addreses an issue very different than tithes. It is speaking of that which man sets apart for the Lord of his own choosing. Notice:

Leviticus 27:16 And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.

This is an account of a man setting apart a certain part of his field, not to grow crops on, but for other purposes. But if that man does do such, he is to pay a certain amount that represents that part of the field that seed could have been planted on but was not. But God does not say it was to be tithed, rather, he said it was measured by a certain measurement for 50 shekels of silver. If a portion of field was not used, it was to be as if it could have been used and payment made. But God did not say a tenth is to be paid. No, he said 50 shekels of silver. A set amount. This is not speaking of tithes in any way.

Man could not give money in place of the crop tithe. He was to tithe the crops regardless if he wanted to keep them or not. The word “redeem” in verse 31is simply 'buy back' in simple English. However it is translated from the Hebrew word “ga’al” which also means “to buy back.” The tither could buy back the crops tithe if he so choses. This does not mean “give money instead. How can one “buy back” something that one never got rid of in the first place?

What transpired was the tither, after harvesting his crops, would take his crops tithe to the Levites. If the tither so chose to buy back the tithe, the Levite would assess the value of the tithe(This means the Levite must see the tithe in its raw form FIRST before any talk of redemption can occur) and give him the option of buying back the tithe at 120% the value of the tithe. The money was not the tithe, because the tithe has already being given as it is. Money was only used to buy back the tithe from the Levite.


It is really stretching it to say that tithes could be money. Especially in light of the fact that tithes could be bought back from the Levites if the farmer chose to buy them back. If you could tithe money, why the option of a buy back? We surely can't use money to redeem money.

See these other verses on tithes

Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Deuteronomy 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

God requires edibles as tithes. NOT money. Since God defined in His Word that tithes were crops and livestock only, it is not accurate to say that one tithed one’s salary. One tithed from the increase of the gardens and orchards, (that which grew from the ground and trees) and stalls (livestock).

DrummaBoy: Mark Miwerds and Candour

On page 0, M4 is - Tithes under the Mosaic Law were in no way similar to Abram's tithe (compare Genesis 14:22-23; Leviticus 27:30-33)

However M5 is M5 - Tithes under the Law were always food (Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 14:22-29: Malachi 3:7-11

While the above presentation is called: M4: THE LAW TITHE WAS AGRICULTURAL (LEV. 27:30-33)

It seem to me that you have Presented M5 as M4. Is this a mistake or you plan to skip M4 as it may have been dealt with already in your discussions so far. If you do, please rename the Presentation as Presenting M5.

I await your response.

This does not stop Image123 and co from offering a rebuttal; when we are clear on what the name of the topic is, we can re-name the presentations as they are supposed to be.

Thank you gentlemen.

DrummaBoy,

Due to a slip of my DragonNaturally Speaking, my presentation M4 ended before I intended it to end. And I could do nothing to bring it back up until I got help just now. I had intended on saying more. For this reason, I have edited the Presentation and completed it as it should have been.

I am sorry, but these things do happen from time to time and they are beyond my control.

I will be skipping M4, as you have suggested, and as the two pretty much hash out the same thing. So they are merged as one into M5

PRESENTATION M5:

THE LAW TITHE WAS ALWAYS EATEN (LEV. 27:30-33)


Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

In the above passage, Moses was given instructions by Almighty God to relay to the children of Israel. That instruction was that they were to tithe. What they were to tithe were products of agricultural nature:

a) The children of Israel were to tithe the seed of the land; i.e., garden produce such as corn, wheat, mint, cumin, dill, anise, etc.. Anything grown in the garden was tithable.

b) The children of Israel were to tithe the fruit of the trees; i.e., pomegranates, figs, dates, apples, olives, etc..
c) The farmer was allowed to buy back his tithe of crops if he had need of it. If he chose to buy back the tithe, the Levite would assess the value of the tithe and then sell the tithe back to the farmer at a cost twenty percent above the assessed value of the tithe.
d) From their flocks and herds, the children of Israel were to tithe every tenth animal that passed under the rod; i.e., the herder would count the animals as they passed under his counting rod. Every tenth animal was to be tithed.
e) The livestock tithe could not be bought back. God demanded that tenth animal and gave no provender for the farmer retaining the animal as his own. If the farmer decided a different animal was to be given as tithe than the tenth one, then both the animal offered and the tenth animal were to be given to the Levite.


The tithe remained agricultural from 1410 B.C., when Moses was given the commandments for the children of Israel up until 70 A.D., when the Temple was destroyed in Israel and the Levites no longer had the duties they previously had.

There is not one instance of money being tithed in those 1480 years.
FOOD OR MONEY?

EVERY INSTANCE OF TITHING EXCEPT ABRAM’S IN THE BIBLE WAS OF FOOD (DEUT. 12:17; 14:22-29; 26:12; MAL 3:7-11


Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Deuteronomy 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

The above passages further reveal the content of the tithes under the Mosaic/Levitic Law. Again, tithes were food, and nothing more. There is not one iota of Scripture that states that God required tithes of anything other than agricultural products.

Tithes, under the Law, were always eaten by someone; whether by the Levite, the tither and his family, or by the less fortunate in Israel.

END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R4:


The Discussants on the pro-tithing team say, “Our purpose for engaging in this discussion is to explain the reasons why the tithe is valid, and to clear common misconceptions and thoughts on the biblical tithe.” However, It is our contention that the tithe today is not valid but a horribly distorted form of whatever tithe our brothers claim to obey or emulate. We have demonstrated this in previous posts in this discussion, but to save the reader from having to search through earlier posts, we will do a recap.



Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;



That which was written in the Mosaic Law was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross… abolished by none other than the King of Righteousness, the Lord Jesus Christ and any attempt to bring it back is an audacious statement telling God he didn't do enough to save and justify us.


Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



Those who are led of the Spirit are not of the Law. The Law is dead to them and they are dead to the Law.


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


The old covenant is outdated and has been replaced with a new one and there's no tithe injunction found ANYWHERE in the new covenant



The pro-tithing Discussants say, “Our actions and motives are not borne out of a reaction to external forces or to abuses of the tithe practice. Our actions
are rooted in the Word of God and the examples and testimonies of godly people to the better part of our knowledge and the leading of the Spirit of God.” but we must ask, Is the monetary tithe being preached and practiced today truly “rooted in the Word of God”? The answer is a resounding NO. It is nothing but the figment of imaginations of mere men. Even at that, Jesus Christ abolished the commandments written in the Law with his death on the cross. This would include the command to tithe. How can one justify tithing in light of the fact that Jesus abolished that ordinance on the cross? Are we more wise than our Lord? According to the Word of God, that which God shutteth, no man openeth.



Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


The Jerusalem Council had spoken by the leading of the holy Spirit; the Old could not be brought into the New. The Apostles (and the Holy Spirit) would not mix Law and Grace.


Acts 15:23-25 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

The apostles did not even give any command or advice to tithe to the early Christians so how did it become a do or fail rule for Christians today? It’s the duty of every Christian to find out.


The pro-tithe Discussants say, “Offering the tithe places one in a position where the tither cannot be condemned by God or called a robber IN ANY
DISPENSATION. “ Again, there is the not too hidden implication that if one does not pay, one is a robber and thus condemned by God. We ask, where is the Scripture that condemns Christians for not paying tithe today? We are in a new Covenant. What is written is written. We cannot add our own rules after the Covenant has been entered into. So if we are supposed to tithe today, where is the clause written in the New Covenant that we have entered into that tells us we are to tithe?


Our pro-tithe Discussants continue, “There is no condemnation for those which are in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the Judge and no christian is expected to condemn anyone.(Matthew 7:1). However, christians can correct one another in love. A pastor is expected and ordained as a shepherd to correct his congregation,those that God has made him an overseer of. He feeds them with the Word of God and helps them to honour God and His Word. A pastor or christian leader can teach his congregation what the Bible teaches, one of which is the tithe. He however does not have the duty of condemning anyone.”


The tithe that the Bible teaches is not the monetary tithe that is taught by many pastors today. Just as they do not have the right to condemn anyone, they also do not have the right to preach that God expects a monetary tithe from the congregation without producing Scripture that demands that monetary tithe. So, again we ask, where in the New Covenant is the Scripture that tells us we are to tithe our money?



The pro-tithe team makes the following claim, It is wrong for a christian not to tithe. Yet, to this point in the Discussion, our opposing team has provided no Scripture to tell us to tithe our money. If there is no Scripture that tells us to tithe our money, can it rightfully be said that “it is wrong for a Christian
not to tithe”?


While tithing does precede the Law, it did not continue after the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is no evidence in the Word of God that tithing continued past 70 A.D because every Jew or Gentile knew that tithes was instituted mainly for the Levitical priesthood and temple destruction brought an abrupt end to their ministry. The apostles knew what the law said and knew they HAD NO RIGHT to collect tithes on behalf of Jesus or Melchizedek. Then again, Hebrews says we were brought into a “NEW” Covenant, not taken back into an ancient one.


The pro-tithing team wrote, “Here is what Jesus thought of the Word of God, and we ought to have the mind of Christ and quoted Matt 5:19 to buttress their point.


However, the pro-tithers team are sending out opposing signals that clash with one another. Earlier, they said that they agree we are not under the Law, yet here they say we are to keep the Law. But are they keeping the Law concerning the tithe? According to all tithing verses under the law, they are not. So, it is really not right to say they are keeping God's commandments because teaching the monetary tithe is outrightly breaking the Law on tithing.


The pro-tithers say, “Tithing is not man's tradition, it is rooted in the Word of God.” Yet, in the Word of God, God gave His tithes to the Levites. Whom does the modern version allocate the tithes to? and what is the tithe?



Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.


That’s right… agricultural products. And consistently through the Word of God from Leviticus 27:30 and forward, tithes were agricultural… they were eaten by the Levites, the tither and his family, widows, orphans, and foreigners taking refuge in Israel. But one thing that is clear concerning God’s tithe… it was never spent because It was NEVER money.


God said in the above passage, “all the tithes.” He did not leave out any… He said “ALL”. He told Moses “It is the Lord’s.” So we know that the tithes that God was requiring of the children of Israel were Gods’. He then explained what those tithes were, so there would be no confusion as to what He meant when He said, “All the tithes.” “whether of the seed of the land;” This referred to garden produce. “or of the fruit of the trees;” This referred to that which grew in orchards and on fruit trees. And “whatsoever passeth under the rod.” This referred to the livestock in Israel. God said these tithes were “Holy unto the Lord.” and God gave them to the Levites. Now, people could not take their tithes to God. They took them to the Levites in their Levitical cities scattered throughout Israel BECAUSE GOD SAID SO. There were forty-eight Levitical cities in total that the tithes were taken to.


Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.


Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.


Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.

Since there are no more Levites, who are the new beneficiaries and by what authority did they arrogate that privilege to themselves?


Those who God called “robbers” were the Priests in Malachi’s day. They were robbing God. They were robbing the people of Israel as well. The tithes that God was speaking of in Malachi when He levied the accusation against the Priests was not a tithe of money…, it was a tithe of food. Our pro-tithe advocates consistently return to the Law, all the while claiming they are not under the Law. But worse, they make God’s tithe, which He clearly said was agricultural, to be money.


The pro-tithers say that “tithing brings blessings.” and i ask, what blessings does a tither have that a non tither doesnt have? Tithers fall sick and die, non tithers do the same. Tithers lose jobs, non tithers do too. Tithers experience various calamities as do non tithers. The only people that seem immune from all these mishaps are the new 'tribe' administering the tithes; the pastoral tribe.

Our pro-tithing opponents say, “We cannot hang the abuse of God’s Word on the tithe.” And yet, that is exactly what is being done when one preaches and teaches the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. There is no instruction in the Word of God for a monetary tithe, only for an agricultural one. Is that not abusing God’s Word to teach something contrary to what it teaches?

While many people may not be giving “tithes” to earn their Salvation, plenty are giving it due to coercion and fear-mongering tactics being preached to them since Tithes came into Christianity in AD585 and Monetary tithes in 1873AD

As to the “safest thing to do'' idea, what other practice can we approach with this mindset? Sabbath was even observed by God almighty himself so I guess that makes it a practice we should adopt to be on God's safe side. Then we can go on and pick every other good practice in the old testament like feast of weeks, feast of Pentecost etc. My brethren, if we have to approach God with this ''safest thing to do'' idea, we are no better than pagans and we would do well to stop lying to ourselves as being saved by faith in Christ.
We will be judged according to our works. Truth. But what works is Revelation speaking of? All the works that are not edifying to the body of Christ.
END

I have composed a rough draft of the Response to Response R4, and sent it to Candour for his perusal and editing of any changes that need to be taken care of.

Hopefully, we will have the Response posted before bedtime in Nigeria.

DrummaBoy: Mark Miwerds and Candour, I want to know if this is ok with you both.

Blessings my Brother.

I have contacted Candour concerning the proposal. Although the rules said the Presentations list was to be in prior to the beginning of the Presentations, we will both agree to them changing it this one time to the proposed list above.

Hopefully there will not be any other changes.

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M3



Our opponents do not realize it, but in pointing out the many wars throughout Old Testament during the dispensation of the Law, they have actually helped to prove our stance which is that spoils of war were NEVER regarded tithable items under Mosaic law.


Not once in any of those wars are the war spoils used as tithe. David, as shown in the verses quoted by our brother, shared of the spoils of war with different people of different cities but nothing of that to the Levites as tithe or whatever.


Also we need to reiterate here for emphasis that Abraham's tithe WAS a one-off affair as our fellow discussants will agree the patriarch was not a professional soldier or a soldier of fortune who went looking for wars to enrich himself with spoils. He went to war just ONCE to rescue Lot and friends and gave tithes of spoils and this makes it a rarity indeed for him. While it is on record and quite provable history that ancient tribes of the middle east gave tithes of spoils of war to the sovereign of the area, Abraham's instance of tithing was just that: one instance.

Numbers 31:21 KJV
And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;

The bolded portion in the verse above suggests God made it an ordinance of the law for Moses to give to the children of Israel. However, we see David fashioning his own statute for war spoils after his victory over Amalekites and which he took into his reign as king (1Sam 30:25)[/color]. Maybe this was him modifying God's ordinance, we cannot say and will not speculate.


However, the lesson from the account in Numbers 31 of the administration of spoils gotten from the Midianites is that God had what he defined as tithe under the law and spoils of war was not among them. As can be seen in the account of the victory of Judah over Ammon, Moab, Mount Seir [color=#550000](2Chr 20:25-28), after the children of Israel had finished stripping the enemies of spoils which they claimed for themselves, they didn't carry tithes of them to the temple in Jerusalem. All they did was take musical instruments to go sing to praise God at the temple showing that they knew and realised that spoils of war COULD NEVER be given as tithes under Mosaic law.


While there is evidence that people kept spoils of wars during the dispensation of the Law, there is one thing we must take into consideration when comparing it with the spoils from the war against the wicked kings in the account in Genesis 14. That being the fact that Abram did not recognize those spoils as belonging to him. He told Bera, "I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord that I will not take unto myself from a thread to a shoelatchet; or of any thing that is thine.”


Is the same said of the wars of David or Solomon, or any other prophet or king under the Law?


In the case of Abram, “To the victor belongs the spoils” is not a valid claim. Those spoils did not belong to Abram and he had no right to claim them. He would have to betray a trust and act wickedly like sons of Belial to claim the properties of folks who called him to come rescue them from soldiers of fortune. He also did not want to give anyone occasion to say they had made Abram rich through their goods so he even rejected their gesture of appreciation that would have seen him profit from it.


Abram had recovered the goods and took them back to who they belonged to, just as Genesis 14 states. To compare the actions of other winners of wars under the Law with Abram’s battle is like comparing straw to silver.


Abram’s midnight raid was not to increase his own household riches. It was to rescue Lot his nephew, not to increase his wealth. The spoils recovered were not Abram’s. The Bible tells us that he did not want them. He had no illusions as to the sole purpose of his adventure; rescue, not riches.


We cannot justify this modern day monetary tithe requirement doctrine using Abram’s rescue and recovery mission. There's no evidence that God made it a law for Abraham, why does the modern church attempt to make it an obligation for Christians?

END

Image123: Please, we would be requesting for time for the rebut. By God's grace in the next 7 hours i.e before 4pm nigerian time(i guess that should be 10am in misssissippi).

close. Only off by one hour. Seven hour between us, making it 9:00 AM

Presentation M3



Abram’s tithe was of war spoils (Heb. 7:4)


Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Numbers 31:27-31 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD. And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Abram’s tithes (see Genesis 14:18-20 and Hebrews 7:4) were not the same as what God required under the Mosaic/Levitic Law from the spoils of war.

Abram’s tithes were clearly revealed to be a tenth of the spoils he had recovered from the rebellious kings who had pillaged Sodom and Gomorrah and taken the goods and the citizen’s captive.

But God required far less from the spoils under the Mosaic/Levitic Law:


a) of the children of Israel, God required only 1/50th of the spoils of war, equaling two out of every hundred

b) of the soldiers who had taken spoils in battle; God required 1/500th, equaling two out of ever thousand.


A far cry short of being ten out of every hundred!

That said, we cannot with all certainty say that Abram’s tithe was because of a Law instituted by God.

God said in Malachi 3:6:

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God does not change. So what happened with the tithe? In Abram’s time, the tithe he gave was not the same tithe that God stated was t be given/paid under the Mosaic/Levitic Law. Abram’s tithes were war spoils that could consist of anything and everything; i.e., food, threads, shoelatchets, etc.. The Levitic Law was of agricultural nature only; i.e., seed of the land (garden produce and herbs) fruit of the trees (pomegranate, fig, olives, olive oil ) and every tenth animal to pass under the rod.

The two tithes are about as identical to each other as a pencil is identical to a potato. If God does not change, and He commanded the tithe that Abram gave to Melchizedek, why the change in tithes once the Dispensation of the Mosaic/Levitic Law was given?

Abram was not said to have tithed his own property, only the recovered goods that belonged to king Bera. Yet, under the Mosaic/Levitic Law, one tithed that which one grew from his own garden, in his own orchard, or was born of his own livestock. If God does not change, why the discrepancy in the property rights?

“To the victor belongs the spoils! “ seems to be the cry. I could accept this if the original owners of the spoils were all dead, (there would be no one to return the spoils to) Yet what if the original owner of the spoils are still alive, as was in the case of Bera king of Sodom? Would not those spoils be the property of the original owner?

END

Response to Response R3



Again, we have no doubt that God’s Word is to be respected. Proper respect of God’s Word is only done by
reading the Word of God and applying it to its proper geographical, and
historical context.

Jesus told the Jews to search the scriptures because the scriptures testify of him (John 5:39). They show who he was and what he came to do.

Hear Paul the apostle

Acts 26:22 KJV
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

He affirmed in the above verse that the prophets and Moses talked about things that should come and we know they meant Christ the messiah. Even Moses in the wilderness made a prophecy concerning the coming of Christ.

Deuteronomy 18:15 KJV
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

So a true Christian and bible student CANNOT discard or disregard the old testament otherwise he will lose sight of the word of God which is Christ.



Those defending the monetary tithe state that the Old Mosaic/Levitic Laws were carnal ordinances that were unable to save or to justify sinful man. Again, we would wholeheartedly agree.



And because they were not able to save or justify sinful man, there had to be a sacrifice. That sacrifice being the One spotless Lamb Jesus Christ. He is the only One whose blood was needed to cleanse us from sin. It took His Righteousness to stand in the gap
before an angry God.



Now, when Jesus died according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, our Salvation was not the only thing that was accomplished. In His death, the “Old Covenant, Old Agreement, Mosaic Law” died also.



Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;



The Law of commandments that was against us, that Mosaic Law, was abolished by Jesus Christ.



Man no longer has a command to “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse.” (Malachi 3:10) That was part of the Old Covenant, Old Agreement… it has been abolished, cancelled out by the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet, the funny thing is, those who teach the monetary tithe doctrine, ultimately all go back into the Law to Malachi 3, telling us to "Bring the tithe into the storehouse."

Was the Law abolished as the Word of God says? or not? If not, then God's Word is a lie. If it has been abolished, then those that say God wants the tithe to be brought into the storehouse are teaching their own doctrines and claiming them to be God's instruction.

The Greek word for “abolished” in Ephesians 2 is the word “katargeo”. It’s definition:



Strong's Greek Dictionary

2673. katargeo

Search for
G2673 in KJVSL

katargew
katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o


from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Rendered completely idle, ceased, done away with cancelled, made of no effect.



God did away with the command to tithe through the Sacrifice of His Son. We have now been brought into a new Covenant.



Hebrews 8:12-13 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Abrahamic Covenant, like the Mosaic Covenant, is not New. It is Ancient. Given to Abraham in 1921 B.C.. The Abrahamic Covenant is more than 500 years older than the Mosaic/Levitic covenant. Hebrews 8 is clear. We have been brought into a NEW Covenant, not brought back into an ancient Covenant.

The Old Covenant (Mosaic/Levitic) was decaying. In other words, it was dying, ready to vanish away.



The New Testament Church was being brought into a New Covenant, a New Agreement. Thus far, we have not been show tithing being taught or established. in the New Covenant.



If we return to the time before Moses, we concur that they were indeed Laws prior to Moses. Even in the Book of Beginnings, known as the Book of Genesis, we read:



Genesis 26:1-5 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Abraham kept the Laws of God. But what were those Laws that Abram kept? Can we truly say that God commanded Abram to tithe with all certainty? Of course not. Because there is not one single instance of instruction given to tithe prior to the Mosaic/Levitic Law written down for man to read.



We do, however, know that the pagans tithed to their gods. There is evidence from recorded history that the
Babylonians gave tithes of war spoils. According to "The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, Vol. 4 "E”, the ancient Babylonians tithed to their sun-god “Shamash.”




We must remember that Abram was a Babylonian, who came out of the land of Ur of the Chaldees..



The point is, Abram’s tithe could have been something God commanded in the Laws He established, or it could have been because of an ancient practice that Abram adapted from the pagan Babylonians.



We are not told why Abram tithes, so it would be equally wrong to say he did so because of an ancient pagan practice as it would to say that he did so because it was commanded by God.



Again, I remind those defending the tithe the seriousness of saying something was done for a specific reason when the Bible states no such reason. Or to say someone did something that the Bible does not say they did.



Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


Where it Bible is silent, we must remain silent, for we could be found to be in err of we speak where the Bible has not spoken.



But regardless of the reason Abram tithed. It is clear that once God gave His tithes to the Levite, anyone else who may have been previously been receiving tithes on behalf of God could no longer receive them. If they did, they would be in direct contradiction to the command of God, who said:



Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.



The tithes... God gave to the Levites. It does not get any plainer than that. If Melchizedek were still alive at the time that God gave the tithes to the Levites, his right to receive tithes was abolished at that point.



Those who defend the monetary tithes say, “We give tithe of what God increases us with.” I would have to ask, “Do you?” Did not give you your house? Your car? Your clothes? Your food? Your computers? Etc.? Were tithers born with all these things? Or were they not increase given to you over the years?




Why is it that in God’s Word increase is seen to be more than money, yet man redefines that to be money alone in order to tithe only money?



The truth of the matter is, of all who say that they tithe increase, probably the majority don’t.

Another question that arises when we hear 'we give tithes because the bible is to be regarded' is whom do you give the tithes to today? Melchizedek? Jesus? Levites? The poor?

If tithes are still something that we are to give, where is the instruction found informing us to whom we are to give our tithe to? The pastor of the Church says from the pulpit that the tithe is to be given to the Church. Where is that instruction found in the Word of God? Or is it just man’s assumption that the tithe is to go to the Church?

If we are going to say that man must tithe today, but not base the tithe on the Mosaic/Levitic Law that the Word of God declares to be abolished, then where is man supposed to tithe? Abram did not tithe to a storehouse. There were no storehouses existing in Abraham's day that the Bible speaks of. Nor did Abram tithe to God's Temple. as that also was inexistant in Abram's day.



We know all our giving gets to God, but who consumes tithes on earth today the way priests consume offerings and Levites consume tithes in the old testament?

END

Image123: i meant rest na and whatever comes with Sunday. Seeing Mark's post though.

I rest at odd hours. LOL

I do not travel a lot, except the 400 foot walk to the mailbox and back on mail days. I have actually gotten quite good at it. Even have learned to do so without my cane. Although I still take my cane with me for safety purposes and insurance. If someone were to hit me, and I did not have my cane with me, they could say I walked out in front of them. Not knowing about my blindness, an accident could be made to be my fault. So, I carry my cane at all times.

As to Sunday rest, it seems all my Sundays are as restful as any other day of the week. I no longer attend Church services after being kicked out of the last one I had been a member of for seven years.

Why did they kick me out, you might ask? Because of the very discussion we are having here. They found out I had not been giving them their required tithe money. They also found out I was teaching on the internet the truth concerning the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. They voted me out in a secret meeting.

Why do I say "secret meeting"? Because neither my wife, nor myself were informed about the meeting... And we were members of the Church. The Bylaws stated that all members were to be informed of business meetings. It is obvious they had us voted out in their hearts and minds long before the meeting took place.

Jesus had a great respect for the Law, yet I find no instance in God’s Word of Him telling people to tithe according to an Abrahamic tithe. But He does tell the scribes and Pharisees that they are to tithe according to the Mosaic/Levitic tithe. (Matthew 23:23)

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.


Scripture clearly staes that the commandments contained in ordinances were abolished. ((Eph. 2:14-15) Scripture also reveals that the command that the Levites had to take tithes of their Brethren (the children of Israel) were disannulled. (Hebrews 7:5;18)

John did in fact say that “Sin is the transgression of the Law.” But what Law was John speaking of? Was John putting his audience under the Mosaic/Levitic Law? Was he truly telling the Church to place themselves under the Mosaic Law after it was decided at the Jerusalem Council that the Gentile Churches were not to be placed under the Law? Was John really advocating bewitching God’s people as the Galatians had been bewitched by the Judaizers in 58 A.D.? I highly doubt that that is possible. John would be tempting God (Acts 15:10 ) if he were telling those reading his epistle to keep the Mosaic/Levitic Law.


The transgression of the Law is sin. We will not argue that. But the Bible is clear, what was Law for the Israelites was not Law for the post-crucifixion Christians.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

That Romans 13:9 list laws that can also be found in the Mosaic/Levitic Law, it is easy to prove that these are New Laws given to the Romans and not the Mosaic/Levitic Laws. The Jerusalem Council was held in 51:A.D.. The epistle to the Romans was written just nine years later, in 60 A.D.. It is highly doubtful that Paul forgot the decision of the Apostles and the Holy Ghost that the Gentile Converts were not to be required to keep the Law.

This idea of Paul teaching the Romans to keep the Law, while telling the Galatians they were fools to allow themselves to be talked into placing themselves under the Law is painting Paul to be some kind of hypocrite, guilty of that which he withstood Peter to the face for his hypocrisy. (Gal. 2)

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

A proper study of Romans will reveal that Paul could not have been telling the Romans to keep the Mosaic/Levitic Law. In the first four verses of chapter 7, Paul explained that those who were married to Christ had no business going to the house of the Law.

Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We, as Christians are supposed to be dead to the Law and the Law dead unto us. How is it possible to obey a Law that the Apostle said we are dead to?

Yes, some Laws were given in Chapter 13. But that doesn’t mean Paul was telling them to keep the Mosaic Law. Let’s look at in the natural for a moment. You live in Nigeria. You are driving your car and you are speeding. A police pulls you over for speeding. Does he give you a ticket for breaking the law in Mississippi? Of course not! Mississippi has Laws for speeding, as does Nigeria, as does Edinburgh, England. But though all have laws against speeding, all are not the same. It is the same with the law in Romans 7. Though it appears the same as that which is written in the Mosaic/Levitic Law, it is not. Different Laws carried different penalties for different people. We are not bound to the Mosaic/Levitic Law. God does not hold us accountable for breaking the Mosaic/Levitic Laws once we come to faith in Christ. He now holds us to a different Law. The Law of Love.

We are to Love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Nor are we bound to the Abrahamic Law. And we are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. If we truly are in Christ, we are going to observe the Law of Love. We can do nothing else but follow this Law of Love. We love Him because He first loved us. We love our fellow man because we love Him. He love constraineth us. His Love holds us together. They that are His have crucified the flesh and the affections thereof.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

There is no need for the Law of sin and death (Mosaic/Levitic Law; 2 Cor. 3:7) when we walk in the perfect Law of Love. If one shows forth a vertical Love toward the Father in Heaven, that Love will spread out horizontally to man on Earth.

I have to ask, Do our opponents who "regard, remember and meditate on the Law" keep the following verse?...

Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

END

Rebuttal to R3:

We should all have utmost respect for the Word of God. Who are we to question how God does things?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The Word of God is pure. It needs no proofing by man to make it more palatable. It needs no editing by man to stir up the emotional senses. God’s Word is forever settled in Heaven. There is no amount of adjusting that one can do to God’s Holy Word that can make it one iota better than He has made it. Any attempt to do such puts us in the place of Lucifer, who thought his way was better than God’s way. It’s best to leave God’s Word alone and let it speak for itself.

To base tithing on the fact that Jesus and His Apostles had a great respect for the Bible is really no valid reason to tithe; given the instructions that God has given concerning tithes. God gave the tithes to the Levites (Nmubers 18:24)

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

To say we can tithe to anyone who is not a Levite is not an accurate statement. There is no command in the Word of God for the faithful Brethren of the New Testament Church to tithe to a person who is not a Levite. Likewise, there is no command in the Word of God for a person who is not a Levite to take tithes of the faithful Brethren of the New Testament Church.

We agree that the Bible is holy, sacred and should be treated as such as it is. So the question arises, are we treating the Bible as holy and sacred?

Our opponents have inferred that we treat the Bible with contempt. We do not. We teach and preach the Word of God as it is written. We do not handle deceitfully the Word of God, as one who wrests it to his own destruction would.

While we agree that the Word of God is to be remembered, regarded, and meditated on, we would have to disagree with where the line of thought in the Presentation is going. It can be proved that some Scripture, while relevant and applicable to the ancient Jews, is not applicable and relevant to the New Testament saints; animal sacrifices being one of those practices and statutes that can in no way, shape or form be applicable to the New Testament Church. Christ became the sacrifice that was needed from mankind. His blood spoke of better things than that of Abel (Heb. 12:24)

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

His blood accomplished what the blood of bulls and goats could not do… His blood cleansed us from our sins. Just as Abel’s blood cried from the ground, Christ’s blood cried from the Mercy Seat. And I am so thankful that because I trusted in Christ as Lord and Saviour, I can truly say that His blood spoke my name!

In the first chapter of Joshua, God was telling Joshua to keep the book of the Law. He was speaking of course of the Mosaic/Levitic Law that consisted of five books written by Moses and known properly as the Pentateuch, or TORAH… the Book of the Law. This command to keep the Mosaic/Levitic Law was not given to the New Testament, post-crucifixion saints. It was given to a people who were entering into the Promised Land in the year 1410 B.C.. They were to observe and keep the TORAH as God had written for the children of Israel. Again, this was for ancient Israel. Concerning the New Testament post-crucifixion saints, the Law did not apply. The commandments contained in ordinances had been done away with… cancelled (see Ephesians 2:14-15)

Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Do we truly have respect for the Word of God if we continue to practice Old Testament practices that the New Testament says have been taken out of the way and nailed to the cross? (Col. 2:14) Do we truly have respect for the Law, which took the tithe out of the hands of Melchizedek and put it into the hands of the Levites, (Num. 18:24) took it out of the hands of the Levites (Heb. 7:18 ) and says nothing whatsoever about putting it in the hands of anyone else? Do we really respect the Law, when we place ourselves under the Law and then twist the wording of the Law to our own liking?

And when we “respect the Law,” are we truly respecting God, who is tempted when we place ourselves under the Law? (Acts 15:10)

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I submit to the readers that if we adapt the Laws of the Old Testament, but twist them so that the Laws no longer resemble those Laws handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai, we are truly not “respecting the Law.” Nor are we showing any respect to God, the giver of that Law.

Now, the commandments Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 5 were, of course, the commandments contained in the ordinances of the Mosaic/Levitic Law. At the time Jesus spoke those words, He was speaking to a Jewish audience… Jews that were obligated to keep those commandments by order from God the Father Himself. Jesus was not speaking to the New Testament Church, but rather to a people under the Law.

Now, our opponents are defending the doctrine of the monetary tithe. Of course, they say that it is not the Mosaic Law they are placing the monetary tithe under because Abram tithed prior to Moses, they defend it. What tithe are they defending then? The Abrahamic tithe? Before I answer that question, I would like to point out that fact that our opponent says we are to “regard, remember and meditate on the Law of God”, of which they include Genesis as being God’s Law as well as the rest of the Bible.

What did Abram’s tithe consist of? Did it include money? Possibly. Did it include anything other than money? Well, according to the account in Genesis 14, it also included clothing. Abram gave tithes of all the spoils that he had recovered. Articles of clothing were amongst the spoils., as more than likely were carts and wagons to carry all the spoils that the kings had stolen.

Genesis 14:22-24 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

I ask again, is it the Abrahamic tithe that that our opponents are defending? Well, I have yet to see any of them stating that they tithe their clothes, their vehicles, their food, etc. Yet, logic would tell you that the Abrahamic tithe had to have consisted of all these things. If all these things are not being tithed, is the Law truly being “regarded, remembered and meditated on” as we are told?

Double post

Our Response to the Rebuttal of M2 is soon to be posted. Please be patient as we converse this one lat time in email to make sure we have said what needs to be said.

The Lord giveth His beloved sleep (Psalm 127:2)

Time for me to prove I am loved by God. I will rest now and be back in a few hours.

Be blessed.

Presenting Point M2

JACOB’S VOW


Jacob’s vow was conditional (Gen. 28:20-22)

The next instance of tithing we find in God’s Word is found in Genesis 28. There, we read.

Genesis 28:11-15 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

To think that the God of Heaven would visit with Jacob, a man who, by his own admission, had not even wanted God in his life.

“then shall the LORD be my God”

God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth,, visiting a man who didn’t even want to know God. Yet, Scripture says that is exactly what happened.

God visited him and revealed to him that many great things were about to happen in his life.

He promised

1. That the place where Jacob had laid down to rest would one day belong to Jacob
2. That ownership of the land would be handed down to Jacob’s descendants.
3. That the descendants of Jacob would be innumerable.
4. That Jacob’s family would increase and spread out in all directions from the point where Jacob was currently at.
5. That God would continually be with Jacob
6. That God would keep Jacob from harm wherever he traveled.
7. That God would bring him back to the land where Jacob was currently at.
8. That God will do the things He promised He would do for Jacob.

Genesis 28:20-22 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jacob’s vow was in response to the dream that Jacob had just awakened from. In his unusual dream


The above verses reveal to the reader that tithing could not have been a regular practice of Jacob prior to his promise.

For one, Jacob stated, “…; then shall the LORD be my God…” Evidently Jacob hadn't fully committed to the God of his fathers despite all that he must have learned at his parents feet. Jacob set forth conditions that God must first meet. If God would meet those conditions, then Jacob promised to God that he would give Him a tenth of all that he acquired.:

a) God must be with him in his travels
b) God must keep him safe in his travels
c) God must provide food for him in his travels
d) God must provide the clothing he needs
e) God must bring him back to Isaac’s house in peace

Jacob set up conditions, saying, “If God will…, then I will.” Many believe tithing was mandatory at that time and written in laws that pre-dated the Mosaic/Levitic Law. This cannot be the case. For if it were mandatory, surely God would have spoken up and told Jacob that he was to tithe whether conditions were met, or not. Also, we find no evidence of Jacob having been taught this “tithe of everything” from either his father Isaac (who is never mentioned to have tithed in the Word of God), or by his grandfather Abraham, of whom Scriptures only record having tithed spoils of war?

Jacob was a supplanter. That is what brought him to the place of desolation he was currently at. He had connived his father into blessing him with the birthright that belonged to his brother Esau. And Rebekkah knew for sure that if Esau caught him, Jacob would be dead. That is why she sent Jacob away. That is why he fled to find his uncle Laban that he might take refuge in Laban’s tent.


We find no evidence whatsoever of Jacob having fulfilled that vow that he made that day at Beth-El. Nor do we find any other instance of tithing being mentioned in the four hundred-sixty-three years between Jacob’s vow at Beth-El to the time of God instituting the tithes in the Mosaic/Levitic Law. But even if Jacob did give God a tenth of everything as he had promised, there is no evidence in the Word of God of tithes being commanded by God prior to the Mosaic/Levitic Law.

END

Candour: I think I understand what Rhymeyjohn is saying and I concur with him. DrummaBoy wants a robust discussion that leaves no stone unturned but I think we all are at Liberty to do or not. Whatever we leave out will surely be asked by the audience in due course so let's not make a law on it.

We all are free to treat them like Mark has done or wait till questions arise. There's liberty in Christ and there is on this thread too.

Agreed!

I believe the questions to be valid questions.

I myself have already worked up answers to the five questions directed at Candour and myself, and do plan to incorporate those answers in some of my future points, rebuttals or responses.

Hoping my emails are getting through. Hotmail froze up on me earlier.

Candour helped, but the Holy Spirit guided us both.

Rebuttal to Presentation R2:

It is amazing that our opponents state that "we tithe because we do not disregard God's law or think it useless." But is the Law being disregarded?

My contention is that it most certainly is. the law is indeed good.
However the apostle Paul under inspiration said the law is only good when a man uses it lawfully.

1 Timothy 1:8 KJV

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Can we honestly say our tithing brothers are using the tithe laws lawfully?

Also, when God gave the law, he admonished the receivers about being serious in their practice and keeping of it. See the following scripture.



Deuteronomy 6:17 KJV

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the Lord your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

Are they truly diligently keeping the laws and commandments of God concerning the tithe?




The Law does not call for a tithe of money. The Law demands tithe of Agricultural nature. Tithe was was to be eaten. Tithe was to be taken to Jerusalem once a year.



Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.



Deuteronomy 14:22-27 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and
shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt
bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.



Tithe was to be taken to the Levites



Nehemiah 10:37-38 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.



that there would be food in the House of God.



Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.



I submit to the reader that when one bends his ear and his will to the monetary tithe doctrine, that one is not regarding the Law of God at all.


Our opponents suggest that we are to regard the Law, that the Law is supposed to be written in our hearts. Yet, the Word of God tells us



Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.



God was not speaking of the Gentile Believers in Christ at all! He was speaking of His people Israel. He would establish His Law in their hearts… a Law that they were to love and to observe.

In his epistle to the Hebrews, Paul was not saying God would write His Laws on the hearts of the Gentile Converts. Context shows that Paul was referring to the Israelites. Notice:



Hebrews 10:15-16 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;



The Holy Ghost is a witness to whom concerning God’s Laws? To the Hebrews. Not to the Gentiles. Paul was not writing to the Gentiles, he was writing to Hebrews, Jews of the stock of Israel.



Hebrews
13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. [b]Written to the Hebrews from Italy [/b]by
Timothy.

Things Hard to be Understood

Ro. 3:28-31

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” – Ro 3:28-31

The Law was not given to make man righteous. It was given to show man his unrighteousness and to lead him to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ro 3:19-20; Ga 3:10-14,24-25). All of man’s righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). There is none that doeth good (Ro 3:12). All have sinned and all are condemned (Ro 3:9-23. To be saved we must have the very righteousness of God, and that can only come through faith in Jesus Christ (2Co 5:21).
Those who trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior have the very righteousness of God applied to their account. The believer stands in Christ’s righteousness. Hereby the law is established FOR ITS INTENDED PURPOSE (Ro 3:28-31).

The Law is established to cause man to see his sinfulness and his need for a Saviour. But once he sees that need and comes to Christ in repentance, he is no longer under the authority and auspices of the Law, it’s penalties and its peripherals.



Galatians
3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



To insist that we must keep any part of the Law is to deny Christ’s authority in our lives.

End

DrummaBoy: I have seen that whoever offers the response to response is usually the person to do the next presentation for the next point to discuss. Since this points have been enumerated already, my assumption was that we have them already written. I am not sure if the 12 hours agreement applied to in btw response to response and presentation. But if that is how we want it, no problem.

We are not in a rush, really. I agree.

While it is true that we should have much written of what seems to be hashed out over and over, in some instances that which is written may need to be set aside to approach the previous posters post from a different angle.

Case in point: The last post by Image, which we are to address, contains many verses. Verses that, if we are going to be thorough, need to be looked up by us, not just to assure that they are there, but also to allow us to read the context that the verse applies to.

Context is important. And for this reason, I propose that the 12-hour rule is equally important if one is going to give an exhaustive rebuttal to a presentation.

I finally fell asleep after 6:30 PM my time, I believe that is 1:30 AM your time. I woke up at just before midnight here, but our internet has been down until just a few minutes ago.

I will begin working on the Rebuttal presently.

Image, thank you for posting the Presentation R2.

Needing Point R2, thanks in advance.

Mark

Mike is my unsaved Brother

Looking at the time frame we are working in, and the amount of points each of us has, I have to retract my last post concerning the proposed rule.

We are looking presently at a month of Discussion. Another added posting could take it up to a month and a half. Perhaps it's best we keep it at the four we originally agreed upon so as not to cause undue burdens on anyone.

I am OK with it as long as all else are OK with it.

I think it is a good plan, giving the originator of the point to have the final explanation and defense of his stand.

I propose, however, that we begin this rule at the beginning of Image and Rhymeyjohn's Pont R2. It would be fair, I believe since they did not get a closing statement on their R1, that we not make a closing statement on M1.

So let us begin it at R2 and carry on from there..

What say ye, Brethren?