₦airaland Forum

Image123: please remember the 'end' when you are done.

please forgive me. It is there now. God bless.

Presenting M1






Abram’s Tithe Was Not His Own Property



In the year 1913 B.C., four kings and their soldiers went to battle against five kings and their soldiers.

During the course of the warring, Sodom fell victim to the kings and was ransacked. The kings pillaged Sodom and Gomorrah, taking their goods and food. They also kidnapped Abram’s nephew Lot and his goods were taken. One person escaped and ran to Abram, informing him of his nephew Lot’s plight. Upon hearing the news, Abram armed three hundred-eighteen of his household servants and set out on a rescue mission, traveling over 150 miles before catching up with the marauding kings at Dan. There, Abram and his army of servants chased after the kings, catching up with them and slaughtering them in Hobah, a city to the West of Damascus.

Genesis 14:14-16 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

In a surprise attack in the still of night, Abram was able to defeat the marauding kings and rescue his nephew Lot. He also recovered the stolen property that belonged to Bera, king of Sodom.

All this traveling was on the West side of the Dead Sea. Yet, on his return from the battle, Abram traveled the East side of the 34 mile long Dead Sea instead of the West. Why would he travel the East side when his home was on the West? Verse 16 has the answer to that question…

Genesis 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

he was returning the spoils of war to their rightful owner, Bera king of Sodom. Sodom was on the East side of the Dead Sea, so Abram took that route.

Now, by right, Abram could have taken the West Route and gone home with the spoils and the people of Sodom as his own property and his own servants, but that was not his intentions.

Abram was on his way back to return the war spoils when he met Bera and Melchizedek in the valley of Shaveh.

Abram brought back all the goods and all the people. Brought them back to where? Back to where they rightly belonged, back to their owner, king Bera of Sodom because Abram had made a vow to God that he would not keep any of the recovered goods that belonged to Sodom for himself. The scripture below is the evidence that the Word of God gives to us that reveals that what Abram tithed was not his own property. Abram didn’t claim the spoils of war. He didn’t want it

Genesis 14:23-24 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

After giving Melchizedek the tenth of the spoils, he gave the rest back to Bera… minus the food that the young men had eaten of the spoils. Abram was not responsible for their actions.

Genesis 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek was “of all.” What does the Bible mean by the words, “of all”? it is impossible that it means ‘of everything that Abram owned. For, everyone knows that when a soldier goes into battle, he does not take all of his possessions into battle with him. Abram had riches (Gen 13:2) but he did not take his gold and silver and cattle into battle with him. He could not have taken them the long 150 miles to Dan and then Hobah. They would have not only slowed him down, but he would have chanced losing all his own riches had he himself been defeated by the kings.


Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Hebrews 7 is the only place in Scripture (other than the Genesis account above) where we find record of Abram tithing to Melchizedek and it was used to show the superiority of the High Priesthood of Christ to that of the high priest of Judaism, Aaron. Verse 4 only mentions the tithing of spoils by Abram. There is no evidence that Abram ever tithed to Melchizedek, or to anyone else, of his own household goods and riches

END
.

I have decided to put the Response to Rhymejohn's Response up, since both Candour and I took much time to piece it together. Candour is currently working on the Response to Image's Response so that Image's concern is properly addressed as well.

I want to think Image and Rhyme for their agreeing to discuss the tithes with us, and hope that each one of us walks away from the table so to speak with a better understanding of God's Word and what He requires of man in the matter of stewardship.

I also want to thank the Moderators, Ajibam and DrummaBoy for agreeing to preside over this Discussion, keeping all of us in check and assuring that we post in a good Christian fashion that will be pleasing to our Father in Heaven and will exemplify His Son in us before man on Earth.

And now, without further delay, I present

RESPONSE 1 TO RHYMEJOHN'S RESPONSE R1

My opponent wishes for proof that not all Scripture is for us to practice. I submit that Acts 15 (which is part of a
later point or ours) is all the proof one needs to prove not all Scripture
applies to us that we must practice or follow it. Acts 15 clearly states that the Gentile Converts were not to be required to keep the Mosaic Law. (Acts 15:10) In Galatians, the Apostle Paul rebuked the Galatians , telling them they were foolish for allowing the Jusaizers to “bewitch them” into submitting to the Law. (Gal. 3:1-3)

The Apostle stated that they would be cursed if the tried to keep any
part of the Law and not all of the Law (Gal 3:10)

Also the law was only a school master to bring us to the knowledge of the need for a saviour. Since the saviour has come, we no longer need that school master (Gal 3:24-25)


Colossians 2:14 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul stated that the handwriting of ordinances had been blotted out, meaning they are abolished. Tithing is one of these ordinances (Mal 3:7- and if the apostle Paul said its blotted out, then we need to believe it has been blotted out.

The tithing said to be practiced today began in the law and it has passed away with the law (He 7:12,18). The Levitical order for which tithe was instituted is no more in operation therefore the tithing system for its sustenance was not retained.

Also, not only is tithing less than the status of a shadow, its a very minute and almost irrelevant part of the law. Jesus said as much in his tirade against the Pharisees (Matt 23:23). The Collosian believers had no tithing system hence Paul didn't need to tell them it was gone. It never existed in their life in the first place.

Tithing did not begin in the Law… true. But once the Law was established, God abolished any receiving of tithes by those who were not authorized to receive them under the Law just like God abolished the act of performing burnt offering rituals on the altar by anybody except a priest.

This means that if Melchizedek was around at the time the Law was instituted, he had to relinquish any right to receiving tithes if indeed it was a form of divine worship (the Levites had taken that privilege) and if Abraham was alive during the law, he could have been struck dead for going near the altar to offer burnt offerings himself (Aaron and his sons had taken over). The right to receive tithes was now given to the Levite; (Num. 18:24,26,28; Neh. 10:37-38) and subsequently, to the widow, the orphan, the stranger within thy gates (Deut. 14:28-29)

One cannot rightly say if Timothy had been a farmer or not.
Scripture is silent. Regardless if he were a farmer or not, Timothy would have known the Law concerning the tithes that God required. “From a child,
thou hast known the Holy Scriptures.” He knew the Scriptures. Tithing was part of the Scriptures he would have known.



Just knowing the wherefores of tithes does not mean he had to tithe (especially if he was not a farmer) If he was not a farmer, though he knew the Scriptures concerning tithes, he would not have had to tithe.



Example: Moses knew what the Scripture said concerning the sacrifices due from a woman who had just given birth. She was to offer a lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offerning. (Lev. 12:6) But Moses was not responsible for offering the lamb and turtledove when Zipporah gave birth to Gershom. Zipporah had to give that sacrifice herself.

Also the English dictionary meaning of tithe is fairly recent and differs greatly from God's required tithe or even the Babylonian tithe of ancient history. This definition entered English language just before 1200AD, a clear 3000 years after its first mention in the bible. God's required tithe has always been of farm and animal products which is consistent with the format incorporated into Christianity at the council of Macon in 585AD.

END RESPONSE TO RHYMEJOHN'S RESPONSE R1

DrummaBoy: @Candour. The above arrangement is fine with me. I also will wish to call Rhymey to order as it sèem he is drawing Image back. If he cañnot kèep up with the discuss I will request he lets us know, so Image may find someone else to work with. We await Miwerds/Candour posts.

I am OK with Responding to the post put up by Image123.

If the two are not communicating, it is not fair to them for us to respond to a one-sided post that the other never agreed upon.

Can two walk together except they be agreed?

I would encourage all to correspond with their ally via email. It helps to curtail occurrences such as the one above if communication is readily available.

DrummaBoy: @ All Participants

This is a suggestion and not a rule:

1. When we offer our rebuttal, let us make them wholesome and not in the tit-bit manner that we usually use on the forum; and which Rhymeyjohn has just used in his Response to Rebuttal. I am not curtailing anyone's freedom but I feel that it will be easier for our reader/viewers and people who will search out this thread in the future to read our responses and learn. It can be a bit tedious reading rebuttals in that manner. It is a personal suggestion that can or may not be taken by the participants.

2. The participants have not shown any spirit of sportmanship. In the rule I had suggested that we should extend a hand of sportmanship to our "opponents" before the discuss starts; especially in the post where we listed our points. If it is not too late, I will request that we do that. It will help those reading from page 0 appreciate the feeling of love and cordiality on the thread. I am saying let each party say something positive about the person of the other party on that post. This is not so much a suggestion but a reminder as it is part of the rules.

Thank you everyone.

Please see my post just prior to Candour's Rebuttal.

Sorry, I had speech recognition on and for some reason, it did not recognize the word "Please." I am typing now. Harder, but a little more accurate. Please bear with me.

DrummaBoy: @ Mark Miwerds and Candour

The last post was made by Rhymeyjohn at about 11am. I am given you up till 11pm tonight to offer a Response to the Response R1.

Thank you.

Thank you, DrummaBoy. I have sent my Response to the Response to R1 to Candour and await his addendum to it. Then, I will deliver it to the thread for all to read.

While we have our 10 Points already worked out, it would have been impossible to work out the Rebuttals to the tither's points prior to knowing what those points are.

We thank them for posting the points and for presenting Point R1. We are currently working on the Rebuttal to R1, but have to communicate back and forth a few times before we give that rebuttal.

As my ally stated, the Rebuttal to R1 will be given before 10 o'clock Nigerian time, which should be 3:00 my time (Mississippi).

Thanks for your patience as we work on the Rebuttal.

I am back.

Be right back. Have to reboot the system.

Is it time to begin?

DrummaBoy: Ajibam and I are working on an appropriate discipline for those who fall behind schedule. We will get back at you on our decision.

This being the first of its kind, hiccups are likely to occur. So the delay. I request that we show some patience with Image and Co.

Thank you, DrummaBoy. Yes, I realized that after I said it and I deleted just before this post.

Please forgive me.

I see my Ally is here. Good evening, Candour. God bless you for your agreeing to be my ally in this Discussion. And thank you for your assistance in helping me to prepare for this event.

Hopefully the defending team will be along shortly.

Ajibam, thank you for taking the time to Moderate. DrummaBoy, thank you for piecing this together and for your interim Moderating. God bless you both.

M1 - Abram's tithe was not his own property (Gen. 14:14-16,18-20,22-24)

M2 - Jacob's vow was conditional (Gen. 28:20-22)

M3 - Abram's tithe was spoils of war, unlike what God required of war spoils under the Mosaic/Levitic Law (Gen 14:16,22-24; Hebrews 7:4; Num. 31:26-31 )

M4 - The Law Tithe was always eaten (compare Genesis 14:22-23; Leviticus 27:30-33)

M5 - Only certain people (the Levite, the widow, the orphan, and foreigners taking refuge in the land of Israel) were qualified to receive tithes (Num. 18:24,26,28; Deut 14:22-29; Neh. 10:37-38)


M6 - The Blessings and Curse associated with tithing was not ill health, loss of job, mechanical problems, etc. (Malachi 3:10-12)

M7 - The Pharisees were not tithing money (Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42 ref. Luke 18:9-12; Matthew 23:3)

M8 - The decision of the Apostles and the Holy Ghost (Acts 15:10,23-29)

M9 - The presence of the absense of the words "tithe", "tithes", "tithing", or "tenth" in relation to that practice speaks volumes. (reference the entirety of the pastoral epistles)

M10 - A Great Hearing Problem (Heb. 2:1)

Are Rhymejohn and Image123 here?

Will we give all ten points with their references all at once at the beginning? and then present the 1st point again with it's Discuss?

or just one point at a time, the Discuss, the Rebuttal, etc.?

Never mind. I see one at a time.

Hopefully, the link to the actually Discussion thread will be posted in just a few by our interim Moderator

At least, that is how I hope it goes. I'd hate to not be invited to the Discussion I am supposed to be speaking at. LOL

Front seat on left reserved for friends of tithers.

Front seat on right reserved for those who don't tithe.

Exit doors on either side of the room. <>

Please observe the "NO SMOKING SIGN" and be respectful of your neighbor.

If you have recently eaten garlic, onions, or beans, your seats are next to the Exits, for obvious reasons.

I am here.

Goshen360: You are 10:23 right now. Your login time will be 12 noon on the central standard time, 12noon with you will be 7pm Nigeria time on the GMT.

thank you, Brother!

Goshen360: Mark,

What state in the USA you live? I can tell you the time if I know the state you reside. I also reside in the States.

Goshen, I am in Mississippi

For DrummaBoy,

The Discussion is supposed to start at 7 tonight. 7 in what time zone? I am in Central US, so need to synchronize with your time.

DrummaBoy: SIX HOURS TO GO... PARTICIPANTS ARE ENCOURAGED TO BE ON THEIR MARKS... LOL!

Looking forward to it. But to be honest, someone will have to point me to the mark... or at least in the right direction. LOL

As an aside: My wife still gets a chuckle when she sees me standing in front of a mirror, combing what little hair I have left. Naturally, I don't need the mirror. But it is fun hearing her laugh.

For your amusement, here is another of my less-than-ordinary moments...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmI98UFXdRk

Just to let you know, a sighted guide was in the vehicle with me, telling me when to turn and when to brake. From what I understand, I did pretty good. Only tripped two pedestrians with my cane. LOL

rudedough: No it was an error, i have already fixed it. I mistakenly removed the rest of the comment when i modified my post.

Thanks for clearing that up.

To some extent, I would have to agree with CE here. If you are an atheist as you say, I must admit I have never encountered one such as you. You defend the Holy Bible in your posts.

Atheists normally do not do such.

rudedough: Just in case people are too Lazy to read all the verses, please allow me highlight the most important parts of Deuteronomy.



[b][size=10pt]The bible said EAT THE TITHE. How Pastors twist the bible, i wonder.

Rudedough,

Please read through past threads carefully. It appears here that you are admonishing Pastor Kun. Pastor Kun is not a tither. He teaches exactly what the Bible says concerning tithes.

His post was about the historical dates, not about a continuation of the Old Testament tithe.

Thank you, my Brother.

I have complied with the request you made in your response. Safety and privacy are indeed important this day and age in which we live.

I have sent you a short note via email.

Pastor Kun: There is no avenue to reply to the notification. The notification appeared on top of my page when I logged into nairaland. It didn't come as a mail I could respond to.

Interesting.

As I said, I have forgotten why I was emailing. But I will send a quick email so the avenue is open in case we wish to communicate in private. If that is satisfactory with you, my Brother?

Pastor Kun: Hi Mark, I got alerted that you sent me a PM. Unfortunately due to a problem nairaland's platform has with hotmail, PMs don't get delivered to my hotmail address which I used in opening my nairaland account.

Blessings Pastor Kun,

All you have to do is reply to the email notification, and that opens the email communication between us.

Old age must be creeping up on me. I have forgotten what I was going to email you about.

DrummaBoy: Thank you sir.

You are most certainly welcome.

My main purpose is to reveal the Word of God to those who are hungry for it. I am sure that is my Brother Goshen's main purpose as well.


I look forward to the Discussion, and hope that not just other visitors to the thread will learn from reading the Discussion, but also that each of the Discussants will learn from it.

God's Word is a living Word and it should always be teaching us something new every time we delve into it.

DrummaBoy: No I didn't mean first choice in that manner. I think you will do perfectly well. Please I request you remain.

Thanks.

I will remain.

Just threw the offer out there. Goshen does seem fired up about this discussion, and I know he is very knowledgeable in the Word.

DrummaBoy: You remain our first choice now. But I had to factor in your busy schedule and that is why I suggested Candour to Mark. No wahala, time still dey for you to hammer!

If Goshen would like to take my place, I would gladly step back and learn from his teachings.