₦airaland Forum

frosbel: For the benefit of doubt , can you show me where MATERIAL HARVEST = $$$$££££ from the bible.

Clue : Perhaps it meant food , writing material , clothes and some travelling money etc.

according to verse 15, Paul told the Church he didn't receive money for preaching. Nor was he writing anyone for money for himself.


He would not take pay lest it hinder the Gospel.
But these deceitful tithe preachers won't tell their congregations that fact.

1 Corinthians 9:11-15 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Paul didn't want remuneration for his preaching. (even though he had the power to receive it)

His reason? He didn't want his receiving monetary payment for preaching to hinder the Gospel of Christ. He went on to say that if he received monetary compensation for preaching the Gospel, it would make his glorying void. His attitude was that he would rather die than accept payment for preaching.

Too bad many of today's ministers don't have the same attitude as Paul. The Church they pastor just might move forward.

Pastor Kun: It's always a pleasure to read your submissions sir, always so succinct and precise.

thank you, Pastor Kun

Bidam: here paul was even making a case for 100 pcnt from the corithian church cos he mentioned MATERIAL HARVEST from a seed sown..Your supporters have even conceded that giving 10pcnt of ones income to your local assembly in itself isn't bad as long as it is from the heart. Pple don't give because they are cajoled to give.

They give proportionately based on what God has blessed them with. I can't give what i don't have..Your argument most times here is that believers shouldn't even give at all to ministries and it is rather funny that so many scriptures in the NT debunks your insinuations. If 10pcnt is fraud..Then folks that partner with other ministries by giving their all are defrauded using your logic here.

actually, many do give because they are cajoled into giving. They are promised God's blessings if they tithe their money. They are also promised curses if they don't tithe their money.

I have never said I was against giving. You falsely accuse me in a foolish attempt to make me look bad and you to look good.

What I am against the handling of God's Word deceitfully as all monetary tithe teachers do in order to garner money from God's people.

Bidam: Then Paul must be a good extortioner by saying "If we have sown spiritual seed among you,is it too much if we reap a MATERIAL HARVEST FROM YOU?" 1cor 9:11

You have to be careful the way you delve into extremes just because you do not support tithing. Giving is the only way to know you have conquered greed.And tithing is actually a form of giving.

funny, I find no mention of tithes in that verse.

The monetary tithe is a perfect example of extortion.

Image123: hahahahaha, no comments. i have more important things to attend to.

I understand. Plotting extortion from the gullible does take careful planning.

Image123: What is this man saying again. i have heard so much rubbish all in the antitithe defence. Was it "Ya" that Jesus used in Matthew 23:23 abi which kain pick and choose eisegesis bi this one?

Unlike the deceitful monetary tithe advocates, I am not picking and choosing at all. 'Ye' in Matthew 23:23 is also plural. But in Matthew 23:23, Jesus clearly identifies who He is referring to... the scribes and Pharisees.

OLAADEGBU: If Jesus only mentioned it twice at one occasion to one person what gravity do you place on it?

jesus said, " Ye must ne born again." But what you may not realize, is Jesus spoke in the plural when He said "Ye". He did not mean only Nicodemus needed to be born again. He meant all mankind.

As I said, the more you post the more you reveal your inability to understand Scripture

OLAADEGBU: How much gravity do you place on the words "Born again"? After all, Jesus only mentioned it once?

jesus mentioned it twice. Peter mentioned it once

DrummaBoy: Lessons that can be gleaned from the above statement:

1. It was a parable. It probably never happened.

2. Even if it happened, that verse does not say that "all that I possess" is money.

3. Even if the Pharisee tithed money, as part of "all that I possess", it easy to see that the Pharisees themselves have taken the tithes to the same crass level of obscenity modern preachers have, in turning the tithe, which were agricultural products, to money.

4. If indeed the pharisee paid tithes on the money he gained, it would mean that the only example of anyone who tithed in the whole of the New Testament is not Christ, his apostles or their followers, but a pharisee. A "worthy" example you will agree.

5. If Jesus mentioned tithes twice, once in rebuking the pharisee and the other in a parable, we see how much "gravity" the Master places on tithing; compare this with the fire and brimstone attitude of modern day preachers.

also, if the Pharisee tithed money, who did He tithe it to? The Levites (the only Temple staff that were authorized to receive tithes ) were not authorized to receive money as tithes... Only crops and livestock. If they did tithe money, it must have been to unauthorized persons.

OLAADEGBU: Self prophesy of a blasphemer.

no need to identify yourself. Your words have already done that

OLAADEGBU: That you did not realise that you blaspheme the name of the Lord by using it to express disgust explains the state of your heart.



I concede that it is a parable, but what does the parable mean to you. The parable means an earthly story with an heavenly meaning. Jesus used literary story in this case it was not figurative. An exemplary story presents character traits as either positive or negative examples to be imitated or avoided. Jesus said what was well known to His audience. They knew that they tithed of all they possessed or gained which includes money.



You are the one adding to what Jesus said here. He didn't say money should not be tithed as you are insisting.



What is established there is Jesus sanctioning tithes, He didn't say money should not be tithed.



Let's assume that tithes was part of the law of Moses. If we are to do away with the teaching of tithes sanctioned by Christ in Matthew 23:23 just because it was part of the law, then why not do away with more of His teachings which were part of the old contract? The only parts of the law we have a right to reject as part of the new contract are those that are not found in the NT or those that are not made part of it. Jesus said "these ought you to have done, not not leave the other undone." case closed.

it is no wonder you have such a hard time understanding Scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The more you post, the more you show the Scripture means nothing to you.

OLAADEGBU: Don't be pecksniffian. You want us to believe your are a person of high moral standard and you use the name of the Lord to express your disgust. Can you use your mother or wife's name to express disgust? That is blasphemy!



Who told you that was a parable? You obviously don't believe that Jesus had words of knowledge otherwise you wouldn't be saying that Jesus was stretching the truth talking about what didn't happen. That we are under grace doesn't mean we don't keep the law that says thou shalt not bear false witness.



What Jesus taught during His early ministry was to take the place of the law which was until John the baptist. Since then the kingdom of heaven is preached (Matthew 11:11-13; Luke 16:16).

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it".

what is blasphemy is your wresting the Scriptures, twisting them to say what they were never intended to say.

The Bible told me it was a parable.

Luke 18:9 (KJV) 9 And[b]he spake this parable[/b] unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 18:10 (KJV) 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

Luke 18:11 (KJV) 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Luke 18:12 (KJV) 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Luke 18:13 (KJV) 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Luke 18:14 (KJV) 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Sorry, Olaadegbu, but Jesus did not teach your ungodly doctrine of monetary tithes. The only command He gave concerning tithes was tithes of garden product; mint, cummin, anise. You must add to the Word of God in order to have Jesus commanding tithes of money.

Proverbs 30:6 (KJV) 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Matthew 23:23 (KJV) 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42 (KJV) 42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

No command to tithe money from the Lord's lips, only from the lips of those who add to His Word..

You used the verse that said the Law was until John. Yet, it is obvious you have no clue what that means. Even the verse you used in Matthew 23 proves Jesus was teaching the keeping of the Law.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus was teaching the Pharisees to keep the weightier matters of the Law.

OLAADEGBU: Who said they were not tithing money, you?

"I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I gain" (Luke 18:12 Amplified Bible (AMP)).

Is money not part of "all that I gain"? You obviously do not read or deliberately try to mislead your followers.

Nope, not me... Jesus.

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Luke 18:12 was part of a parable... an illustration to reveal the prideful heart of the Pharisees. The Pharisee was not tithing money. He says he does things that he does not do.

You obviously do not read or deliberately try to mislead your followers.

With the verse I quoted above it is quite clear that you are the very one creeping in here unawares to spread errors. Since our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ sanctioned tithes in Matthew 23:23 then it should be upheld. His teachings was not just to confirm the law for a few days and then be abolished. They were to take the place of the law as we can see in His Sermon on the Mount.

Since the discourse in Matthew 23 is under the Law and pointing to the Law, it is quite clear you are the very one creeping in here unawares to spread errors. The tithes Jesus sanctioned in Matthew 23 were agricultural as the verse clearly shows...

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

OLAADEGBU: Is is not funny how you conveniently omitted the woes Jesus pronounced on the hypocrisies of the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:23?

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone"

You have been proven once again to be the one teaching error here. Here our Lord Jesus Christ had the opportunity to abrogate and abolish tithes here but instead he sanctioned it, albeit in faith.

Is it not funny how you omitted the fact that those "scribes and Pharisees" were not tithing money, but garden products; i.e., mint, anise, cummin, dill & all manner of herbs?

Obviously you are the one teaching error. The tithe Jesus Christ sanctioned were the tithes commanded by the Law... agricultural tithes. In your greed for mammon, you will not admit that the tithes Jesus sanctioned were not the tithes you desire.

Yes, He does tell us who the thieves are.

Matthew 23:14 (KJV)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mark 12:40 (KJV)
Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 20:47 (KJV)
Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.



Matthew 15:9 (KJV) 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

The teachers of the monetary tithe are the robbers, for the steal money from widows through that deceitful doctrine.

Malachi was not speaking of a tithe of money. Nor was it speaking of the Church when it used the word "storehouse." There is no command to tithe money to the Church in the entire Bible. Yet those who deceitfully teach their congregations to tithe are too prideful and too greedy to admit it to their congregations. They love the mammon so much that they are willing to rob their flock in order to get it.

Bidam: ARE You insinuating that giving to God as part of worship a CURSE.

Be careful not to delve into extremes here. You are actually ALSO operating under the LAW as a judge by quoting an out of context scripture, to believers who see giving as part of their worship to God and not to ANY MAN.

It is obvious that Olaadegbu, although claiming Abram as the reason for tithes today, bases his tithing on the command under the Law. He even quoted the command that is found in the Law to prove his ungodly doctrine.

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with giving to God. (if done for the right motives) The problem is, most who say we are supposed to be tithing use the Law to prove tithes. When they do, they reveal that they are cursed by God.

How can I say that? Because Scripture says they must keep all the Law. I can guarantee they are not keeping all the Law. Not even the Law of tithes as recorded in the Word of God.

OLAADEGBU: Abraham believed the gospel and gave tithes which was 430 years before the Law of Moses. The principles of tithes and offerings are just like that of praises and prayers and alms giving which all go up as an offering to God.

"And said, Cornelius, your prayer is heard and your alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God" (Acts 10:31).

Even Cornelius, with the limited light he had available to him had his prayers and alms pleasing to God as a sweet smelling odour and he received more light when Peter was sent. But the religious people of today will say tithes and offerings are for those under the law therefore they will not give.

Abram's tithes were of the spoils of war... not money out of his own household.

Cornelius was never said to have tithed. Nor can it be found anywhere in the New Testament where either Peter or any of his fellow Apostles ever taught tithing.

But the thieves will continue to defraud the gullible and Scripturally ignorant with their monetary tithe requirement lies.

OLAADEGBU: God bless you ckkris. The religious will always fight tooth and nail to have that which belongs to God.

Thieves will always rob the gullible and Scripturally ignorant with their man-made monetary tithe lies.

ckkris: CHURCH, which combines Jews & Gentiles, is where I belong. And most of Mosaic Laws, having been fulfilled, are no longer necessary. Abraham paid tithes, so tithes preceded the Laws that were operative, UNTIL Christ. The widow's example only shows that God is watching, & is interested in how things are done in His name.

no indication of God requiring tithes at that time. If He did require them, Jacob would not have been able to bargain with God as he did.

Abram's tithes were of spoils of war, not Abram's own assets.

ckkris: Money was accepted as GIFT only?

study the Scriptures, ckkris. The widow's two mites were a gift, not tithes.

Tithes were taken to the Temple by Levite males, not little old ladies.

OLAADEGBU: The Bible also says: "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it" (Malachi 3:10).

So we now know those who worship God in vain by teaching the commandments of men.

the Bible also says:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)you foolishly put yourself under the Law and incur God's curse upon yourself.

OLAADEGBU: The Bible says: "Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20).

Say Amen if you agree with this verse.

the Bible also says: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9).

OLAADEGBU: The Two Tithing Systems (Clip 5).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpl1OAFAxcY

This deals with the subject the religious folks hate to hear. The anointing to prosper is love. Passage read was Genesis 2:16-22.

This issue was God said 'don't eat that one' out of the many but that's what the religious folks will focus on, they get focussed on what God told them not to do.

Religion always wants what has been told that you cannot have. This is an issue of honour vs dishonoring God. This is where tithing comes in.

so now you admit that you are only in religion. You focus on what the Bible says the Church cannot have... The tithes. Tithes were given to the Levites by God. He never gave them to the Church.

ckkris:
Then what did blessed widow give? Money, or grains?
Compare 1 Corinthians 16 : 1-2

read the account of the widow in Luke 21:1-4. The widow was giving a gift. It was not tithes. Tithes were not gifts, they were mandatory offerings that were taken to the Levites. Then the Levite males who were Temple staff were responsible for bringing tithes to the Temple.

Why do so many continue to deceptively use the widow to prove their false monetary tithe doctrine? She was not tithing.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is not about tithing either.

ckkris: Not a temple. Christ Jesus declared right in the TEMPLE, that HE was building A CHURCH, which I choose to belong to.

wrong! Jesus was on the coasts of Caesarea Philippi when He spoke of building His Church. There were none with Him but His Disciples. He was not in the Temple.

ckkris: Any personal property of The Holy God, is considered holy, and that's why tithes are holy, Leviticus 27 : 30, and you know Israelites were always bringing monetary offerings of Gold, Silver, & Bronze, into the Temple.

Show me one verse that says money was tithed to the Temple.

ckkris: Tithe is holy money, Leviticus 27 : 30.

Take a look at people you know, that confiscate God's holy money, and see whether you desire to be like them. Jehovah Elohim is an awesome God. He didn't pity Israel, and will not pity anyone else, that refuse to repent, but continue to abuse the abundant GRACE that is in Christ Jesus.

Leviticus 27:30 does not say tithe is money. Leviticus says the tithe of the land is the seed of the land and the fruit of the trees.

Throughout the Old Testament, tithes were eaten... they were never money.

And nowhere does God's Word ever call money "holy".

ckkris: Deuteronomy 14 : 22-26; Prophet Moses instructed that tithes could be MONETISED.

It is cumbersome to begin to discuss parts of the Old Covenant that Jesus fulfilled, those that are being fulfilled now, and the ones to be fulfilled in the future.
I must acknowledge, that such discussions are what the apostle Paul said can ONLY BE TAUGHT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, 1 Corinthians 2 : 13.

Deuteronomy 14 does not say the tithe can be monetized. What it says it the tithe can be sold for money, but that when the tither gets to the festival, the tither must use that money to buy back the tithe and there EAT the tithe before the LORD.

Nowhere does Deuteronomy 14 say the money is the tithe.

ckkris: Please include Matthew 23 : 23, and see that TITHES are not abolished like some Old Testament laws that are already fulfilled in Christ Jesus, The Messiah.

Matthew 23:23 is included.

If Matthew 23:23 is not abolished, then neither are any of the other Old Testament statutes and ordinances in the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

If one is going to insist that tithing is not abolished and is to be observed, then according to the above verse all other commands written in the Law are also to be observed.

The fact is, the tithe that Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 23:23 was not the money tithe that people preach today. It was agricultural; i.e., mint, anise, cummin. The monetary tithe requirement being taught in pulpits is a man-made doctrine and not ordained by God at all.

Back in the 1970’s, I worked as an assistant animal trainer with a circus that traveled up and down the East Coast. It always amazed me to watch the elephants swaying back and forth under the sideshow tent.

What was to prevent them from running out of the tent and trampling the crowds out on the midway? It was nothing more than a chain attached on one end to one of the elephant’s back legs and on the other end to a stake in the ground.

The adult elephants wore the same size chain as the young baby elephants and could have pulled the stakes out of the ground with ease. And yet, in my four years of working with the circus, not one of the adult elephants ever tried to escape the chain that could have easily been snapped should they give the slightest pull. Why did they not try to escape, you may ask?

Because they were conditioned to believe they could not escape… brainwashed, if you will into believing that the chain that bound their feet was stronger than they were.

There is an old saying that if you tell a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it to be true. The elephant and his chain is a perfect example of that principle. The chain is put on an elephant when it is still very young. As a youth, the elephant is not as docile as the adult. It will often pull on the chain in an attempt to free itself, yet it is not quite strong enough to pull the stake out of the ground or to break the chain. Over a period of time, and after many failed attempts to free itself, the elephant resigns itself to bondage because he gives in to the thought that no matter what, he cannot free himself from that chain.

And so, though he may grow from an infant of one hundred-sixty-nine pounds to an adult of six tons, he believes that he can never be free from that chain. So it is with many who have been taught the monetary tithe requirement doctrine for years and years. They have been told the lie long enough that, like the elephant and his chain, they have been conditioned to believe that tithing of their money is a mandatory requirement handed down to the Church by God Himself.

And yet, if the Christian would only pick up his or her Bible and study all instances of tithing in it, that Christian would find that God never authorized the Church to receive a monetary tithe from her members. The monetary tithe is a doctrine that was invented long after the last book of the Holy Bible was penned. The monetary tithe doctrine is an invention of man, who introduced it to the Church in the late-eighth century A.D.. Thus, the Church became defiled and began teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

The only Scriptural commands concerning tithing are found in the dispensation of the Mosaic Law. Those commands all show that the tithes that God required were agricultural in nature; i.e., crops, flocks and herds. (see Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 12:17; Deuteronomy 14:22-29; Deuteronomy 26:12; 2 Chronicles 31:5-6, 12; Malachi 3:7-11, Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42)

The only time in Scripture that God demanded tithes was during the dispensation of the Mosaic Law, and then it was only required of the children of Israel. No other nation was ever commanded by God to tithe in His Word. (see Leviticus 27:34; Numbers 18:24,26,28; Nehemiah 10:37-38)

Pastors today have no Scriptural justification for preaching their flock must tithe their money to the Church. God never authorized such a doctrine in His Word. Pastors need to stick with what the Word of God says instead of teaching what it does not say.

Saints, I encourage you to be as the Berean’s in Paul’s day. Don’t just accept the words being preached in the pulpit. Search the Scriptures daily to see if what your pastor is teaching or preaching is so. Compare the sermon with what the Word of God says. God’s Word is the only sound doctrine that is nourishment for your soul.

ckkris: In
Matthew 23 : 23



Jesus UPHELD the paying of tithes, as well as doing justice & righteousness. Jesus didn't give new commands on tithes as He did on ADULTERY. That GREEDY PASTORS choose to confiscate all the tithes to themselves doesn't change the WORD OF GOD. And everyone can see how the abuse & misuse of such holy monies destroy those pastors, their families, & their churches, that binge on tithes, which The Most High God declares as belonging to HIS HOUSE. The lavish lifestyle of the pastors that claim that tithes belong to them ALONE, is not what Spirit-led Christians would emulate at all, Psalm 37 : 1. Just look a little beyond the surface, & marvel at the destruction, sometimes irredeemable damnation that these greedy pastors bring upon themselves, by confiscating tithe monies to themselves alone.

you are correct to say that Jesus did not give any new commands on tithes.

He simply enforced the tithes of agricultural produce. "Ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin... This ye ought to have done."

Jesus did not change the tithe... corrupt preachers did.