₦airaland Forum

ckkris:
People can OVERRULE the will of GOD in order to do as it pleases them, but the CONSEQUENCES are dire.

When a pastor preaches tithing today, that pastor IS overruling the will of God.

In Acts 15:10, the Apostle Peter rebuked the religious leaders in Jerusalem for their demanding that the Gentile Converts keep the Law of Moses: He told them they were tempting God.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The admonition was that the Gentile Converts were not to be bound by the Mosaic Law. It was not given to them, it was given to Israel alone. The Law did not work for Israel, why would it work for other nations?

Acts 15:22-29 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Both the Holy Ghost and the Apostles decided that the Mosaic Law was not to be required of the Gentile Converts. The Gentile Converts were to observe only four necessary things: that they abstain from meats offered to idols, that they abstain from blood, that they abstain from things strangled, and that they abstain from fornication.

The letters were sent out by the Apostles as decided. From that point forward, the Bible has no instance whatsoever of the New Testament Church being commanded to tithe. God didn't want it to be taught or it would have been in His Word... especially in the pastoral epistles, where we learn the way that God desires a Church to be operated.

Since God's Word gives no instruction to the New Testament Church, where did the command for them to tithe come from? From man. The monetary tithe was never taught in the New Testament Church from the first Century A.D., to late 8th Century A.D., there was no such doctine as a monetary tithe in the Church.

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

In late 8th Century, A.D., man added to God's Word by writing into Church Law that a monetary tithe was to be given to the Church. Thus, the Church was defiled with its own works. It was found to be a liar, for it added to God's Holy Word its own opinions and made that opinion a doctrine that they demanded of others that they were to obey.

Psalms 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

And because they now teach the monetary tithe as a doctirne that was given by God, they are overruling the will of God for the Church and their worship is in vain.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

See, here you are being just as deceptive as Creflo is in the video.

You say "At that moment he was talking about honouring the Lord, they would cross the bridge when they come to it."

Truth be known, at that point it was about money AND honouring Creflo Dollar. His statement was " "We are not talking about money this morning as much as we are gonna talk about honour."

Notice he did not say "We are not talking about money. We are talking about hounour." No, when he threw in the words, "as much as" he indicated that he was talking about money.

Face it, Olaadegbu, what he was pushing was neither the Abrahamic tithing system, (he was not telling his congregation to go to war and tithe the spoils they recovered from the war if they won) nor was it the Mosaic Law tithing system. (He was not telling them to tithe crops and livestock as the Law required)

Instead, he was taking parts of both systems, then twisting them to arrive at a third tithing system that is nowhere supported by God's Holy Word... that being the monetary tithe.

In reality, the "as much as we are going to talk about honour" was nothing more than a deflection from the truth. Who is being honoured when you bow to the unScritpural monetary tithe requirement being taught from the pulpit? God says our giving should not be of compulsiion, so when one bows to that unScriptural monetary tithe requirement being taught from the pulpit, that one is not honouring God... he is honouring the one preaching the false doctrine.

Creflo was throwing out verses such as Proverbs 3:9, but the reality is he wanted the people to honour him and his demand for a tithe that God never authorized him or anyone else to command of the people.

OLAADEGBU: Continuing from where we left off.

The Two Tithing Systems 4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgnsT1sQJbw

The man said "We are not talking about money this morning as much as we are gonna talk about honour." (0:33 mins) of the videoclip.

I remember Mark Miwerds posted here that the preacher said that "we are not talking about money" and didn't complete the sentence and all his followers swallowed it hook, line and sinker without reading it in context.

But the funny thing is, Creflo is talking about money.

And his addition "as much as we are talking about honour" is deceptive. The title of his message reveals that when he said "as much as we are talking about honour" he was speaking of honouring with the monetary tithe which he later tells the congregation to do.

And his followers followed it hook, line and sinker without considering the fact that Christ abolished the ordinance of tithing nearly 2000 years ago and the fact that the Apostles (and the Holy Ghost) sent out letters to the Gentile Churches telling them they gave no such commandment as to keep the Laws of Moses.

Tithing is a law of Moses.

Again, thank you all for your kindness. But all the credit goes to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Without Him, I would be both physically blind and spiritually blind.

It is He who fights my battles for me. It is He whose Word strengthens me and enables me to face each day not as a defeat to be sorrowed over, but as a challenge to be met and conquered.

I seek no pity, but encouragement... which you Brothers have done today. Blindness is a handicap only if one makes it a handicap. When we focus on blindness, deafness, lameness, etc., our burden becomes greater than the burden bearer. "Casting all your cares upon Him, for He careth for you" is good instruction for all saints to take heed to follow.

God bless.

Enigma: Thanks a lot for the clarification, Mark.

The Lord is to be praised that you can be a blessing despite blindness. I am happy to have you in our midst here.

God bless.

Thank you, Enigma! Fight the good fight of faith, and stand with those who endeavor to battle for the Truth as it is written in God's Holy Word. God will truly bless all who serve Him faithfully here below.

DrummaBoy: I share the same sentiments, Mr Miwerds, with Enigma. I just wonder how despite your disabilities you still do so well countering these errors. How do you do it? God bless you Mark Miwerds!

Thank you DrummaBoy! God is gracious.

Though my physical blindness is a hindrance, it is also a blessing. I do not have to be tempted through visual deceptions that are in everybody's lives from day to day. God has spared me that, maybe because He is true to His Word and knows that visual temptations would be too much for me.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I read and write braille, (learned at the tender age of 9) walk with my Mahler cane, (had to start using it at the age of 28 ) and have DragonNaturallySpeaking to allow me to type on the PC by speaking to it through my headset microphone. I hear your posts (and others) spoken to me through a synthesized voice using MS Windows built in text-to-speech software program.

Pictures, I have to have described to me.

I do not miss my sight at all. Seems this world is getting more and more evil as the days go by. Pastors have allowed the enemy to creep in their Churhes (something that Paul warned the Church to be aware of) and through subtitle misdirection, have led many away from the truth concerning what God said that the tithes consisted of and to whom the tithes were to be given. Pastors, being weak in proper Biblical study, also have become led away by these lies and that is why the Church has become, as Jesus would put it, "a den of thieves" today.

We are told in the second epistle to Timothy to "Preach the Word", yet so many have strayed from the Word and instead chase after the invention of man and have become defiled.

Psalms 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

Paul, in his epistle to the Church at Corinth wrote that "if any man defile the Temple, him will God destroy." I pity those pastors who defile the Church through their sermons on tithing that don't even line up with God's Word. Unless they repent, they will perish.

Enigma: ^^^^ That is sooooo cheap!

Anyway Russell Kelly is actually a registered member and while I will wait for Mark to confirm that they are different people (I stand to be corrected), I can also tell you that Russell Kelly actually looks different.

Smh

You are correct, Enigma.

Russell and I are not the same person. I have conversed with Russell Kelly on a few points via email though.

Russell and I are not in total agreement with all that he teaches in his book or on his website. For the most part, we are. But there are somethings that I totally disagree with him on.

OLAADEGBU: Is this for real? Are you sure that you're not the same person as Russel Kelly who is also registered blind?

Olaadegbu,
I am blind. I am not Russell Kelly.

Do you think Russell Kelly is the only blind person in the world?

Yes, i am blind.

Attached is a picture of me, taken by my wife. (Who helped me put it on the internet too)

Candour: Thank God for your post brother. Good you say tithe till you die. No one will quarell with your decision. If you've decided to continue, then by all means do.

Those whom this thread is concerned about are those who have been told the following LIES

1. If you don't tithe, things will be tight for you financially

2. If you don't tithe, you will have calamities, accidents, sickness, etc

3. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

4. If you don't tithe, it means you don't love God

If you don't fall into any of the 4 categories, then this thread and similar ones are not for you.

Feel free to go on with your tithing and i wish you luck

The sad thing is, what he is embracing is the Law. All those verses he quoted that he says tell him to tithe are commands under the Law.

He offends in the tithe the way he is giving. He is not obeying the Laws he says he is to obey.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

He is only fooling himself when he says he is obeying Leviticus 27, Deuteronomy 14, Luke 11 & Malachi 3. He's not fooling us and he's not fooling God either.

kolidave: Malachi 3:10 - Bring ye all the tithes into the
storehouse, that there may be meat in mine
house, and prove me now herewith, saith the
LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows
of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that
[there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].
Leviticus 27:30 - And all the tithe of the land,
[whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit
of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the
LORD. Luke 11:42 - But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye
tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and
pass over judgment and the love of God: these
ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other
undone. Deuteronomy 14:22 - Thou shalt truly tithe all
the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth
forth year by year. Malachi 3:8-10 - Will a man rob God? Yet ye
have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we
robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. U want more passages

the tithe instructed in those verses is food. Is that what you are tithing?

kolidave: I pay my tithe not cos anybody forces me to. I do it cos I feel its right,and its the bible to do so even tho its not in d 10 commandments and I've benefited greatly from it cos I've not had any reason to beg or want

where in the Bible are you told to tithe?

kolidave: Human being are so stingy that they cannot give out 1 tenth of there income/money. How much is 1 tenth gonna take from u,will it kill u to give it to the Lord. Its not to much to ask,is it?....

if the Lord asks me for a tithe, I will gladly give Him a tithe.

Thus far, He has not.

Thus far, extortionists have tries to deceive me and to scare me into tithing.

All have failed in their deceitful endeavors.

OLAADEGBU: Back to the topic at hand after all the enemies of progress had derailed it.

neither you, nor your idol Creflo Dollar can provide any Scripture that says we are to honour God with tithes.

Jesus did not feed the five thousand+ with the boys tithe. He fed them with 100% of the boys lunch. The boy gave all that he had, not ten percent.

The account of the loaves and fishes has absolutely nothing to do with tithing.

James 1:27 (KJV)
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Thanx, Candour.

I make it a point to listen to these messages so that I may be better qualified to show how the speaker is wrong.

The thing is, Creflo teaches that blessings are contingent upon one tithing. He said the same of Abram, that Abram was not blessed UNTIL he tithed.

But the Bible teaches the opposite of what Creflo teaches. The Bible says Abram tithed AFTER receiving the blessing.

Genesis 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

But what did Abram tithe?

It was not Abram's own riches...

Genesis 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

Rather, it was the property of Bera, king of Sodom

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

If we are to embrace the system of tithing after the manner of Abram, then it stands to reason that

1. we tithe only of the spoils of war and not of our own personal possessions.
2. we tithe only after receiving refreshments and a blessing for winning a physical battle against the foes of the king we are tithing to.

Rules out those of us who are not qualified to engage in a physical war against kidnappers such as Chedorlaomer and his cohorts were. My blindness prevents me from going to war, the Army will not put weapons in the hands of the blind.

This "Two Tithing Systems' sermon is just another attempt to convince the ignorant and simple-minded that the minister of God has the authority to extort their money from their bank accounts.

What 'The Two Tithing Systems" is, is pure manipulation by a deceitful minister.

He claims those two systems are

1. Abram's tithe before the Law
2. The tithe under the Law.

He says we are not under the Mosaic Law, but that we MUST tithe in order to honour God and receive "the blessing" from God. That, my friends, is pure manipulation. We're not under the Law, but must tithe in order to be blessed?

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Creflo, and those who preach the same manipulative message that he preaches, worships God in vain. They teach commandments of man as if they are doctrines of God. And they are so convincing with their smooth words and fair speeches that the unlearned and ignorant masses swallow the bait... hook, line and sinker and then run with it.

Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

With his much fair speech, Creflo causes his congregation to yield; with the flattering of his lips, he forces them to believe his deceptive and erroneous doctrine.

I have been listening to the entire sermon that Creflo Dollar preached. He is slick, to say the least.

Early in the sermon, he tells the congregation that the sermon is not about money, but about honour.

He goes from 1 Samuel 2:30 to Proverbs 3:9-10 to the Garden of Eden.

Trying to turn that one tree into God's tithe. (as if there were only 10 trees in the Garden) And he works his message in such a subtil way, that the congregation does not even realize it when he says "This sermon is not about money."

Then, he goes into Abram's tithe (the first tithing system) to Melchizedek. He fails to tell the congregation that Abram did not even tithe of his own property, but of the property of Bera, king of Sodom. Abram wouldn't even claim the property as his own. He did not see it as his own. He did not see it as "his increase." Yet Creflo makes it Abram's increase.

Video 8, Creflo says that Melchizedek released "the blessing" AFTER Abram tithed. Yet, the Bible tells us Abram received the blessing BEFORE he gave tithes to Melchizedek. And the people in the congregation must not be reading their Bibles, for they are all "amening" Creflo's deception.

Then he goes to Genesis 28. Jacob's vow. Creflo fails to tell the congregation that Jacob's vow was conditional. and that God did not meet the final condition to that vow until nearly 21 years after the vow was made.

Again, he tells the congregation it is not about money but about honour. Then immediately goes into the spin of money again. Do not be deceived... the message is about money.

1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

How does a Christian honour God? Is it by placing himself under the rules and regulations of the Mosaic/Levitic Law? Or is it by walking and living in Christ?

Galatians 3 should answer those questions.

Galatians 3:1-2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

In the above verses, we learn two things…

1. That it is foolish for those who begin in the Spirit to subject themselves to the Mosaic/Levitic Law
2. That when one subjects oneself to the commands of the Mosaic/Levitic Law, that one is walking in disobedience to God’s will for his or her life.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The one that subjects himself to any single commandment written in the Mosaic/Levitic Law must keep the whole Law… He cannot pick and choose what Laws he wants to keep and what Laws he doesn’t want to keep. He must keep the WHOLE Law.

Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

In the above passage, we find that a woman who has a living husband but marries another is an adulteress. As long as her first husband is still alive, she is an adulteress if she is married to another. But if her first husband is dead, she is no longer an adulteress though she be married to another. We who are saved are dead to the Mosaic/Levitic Law and are married to Christ . Any time we go to the house of the Law, we are being unfaithful to Christ.

If we are dead to the Law, why go sit in its house? Why live in a mausoleum? A house of bones? We have been espoused to Christ Jesus and are to be faithful to Him, not to the dead.

Creflo Dollar, in his video, “The Two Tithing System”, said, “This foundation (honouring God) is the key to the progress that we see…”

For the Christian, subjecting oneself to the Law is not progress… it is deterioration. We are supposed to advance in Christ. Advancing in Christ cannot be done when one is unfaithful to Him. One is committing spiritual adultery when one attempts to live under the duress of the Old Testament Law. We who are saved are not bound by the statutes and ordinances written in the Law. Why foolishly subject ourselves to them? Why walk in disobedience to the truth that has so evidently been set forth before you? Why be disobedient to Jesus Christ?

The peoples of the Old Testament lived under an entirely different covenant than we do today. We have been brought into a new covenant. It is called a new covenant for a reason. It is new. It does not contain the Laws and Statutes found in the Old Covenant. It has entirely new commands that we are to observe.

Creflo Dollar quotes the Bible to ask the question: “If our foundation be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Good question! The problem? What foundation is Creflo trying to build upon? Jesus Christ? or the Mosaic/Levitic Law? The foundation for the peoples pre-cross was the Mosaic/Levitic Law. This side of the cross, however, is built upon a different foundation. Unlike the Law, our foundation is sure. Our foundation is the truth that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

Creflo said that “you can’t build a building without establishing a foundation.” Again, this is true. However, one must build on the right foundation, or the building will fall.

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Not only must the building be erected on a sure foundation, but the building material must also be free of defect.

Let me illustrate using a baker in his/her kitchen. The baker gets all the ingredients together in her kitchen to make bread; flour, yeast, butter, warm water. These together make a fine bread. But suppose this baker decided to add an additional ingredient to the recipe? Suppose she reached under the counter and pulled out a bottle of poison and added poison to the batter before putting it into the oven?

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

The whole lump of batter has become poison and unfit for eating, even though it has good ingreedients in it. The flour, yeast, butter, and warm water have become tainted.

So it is with the Christian walk. Paul said we are dead to the Law and the Law is dead unto us. It has no place in the walk of the saved today. Yet, so many want to foolishly place themselves under the Law and want to place others under that Law. We cannot say we are walking according to the will of God when we place ourselves in subjection to any part of the Mosaic/Levitic Law. You cannot mix Law and Grace. Paul said it is foolishness and it is disobedience when you do.

How shall we who are dead to the Law live any longer therein?

One cannot mix truth and error and expect the truth not to become error. This is what is happening in so many Churches today when they place themselves in subjection to any part of the Mosaic/Levitic Law. This is what is happening in Creflo's sermon from the two videos. While there are many truths contained in what Creflo said in the videos, those truths are tainted with error and become error because Creflo mixes in the command given to Israel and Israel only in a foolish attempt to deceive the hearers into subjecting themselves to a part of the Mosaic/Levitic Law.

And Paul, writing under the inspiration of God, says, “God forbid!”

OLAADEGBU: You don't have to be invidious. Where did I say that non-tithers should be shot dead?

in defending Creflo's sermon, you show all on NLthat you are in agreement with it.

Pastor Kun: Very interesting reading, it also exposes how low majority of our church leadership have descended compared the life of service to humanity the early church fathers lived.

You are absolutely right, Pastor Kun.

I have several old books that reveal the fact that the early Church never taught or collected monetary tithes.

One such book, written by John Gratton in 1703, reveals much the same as Pearson's book did in 1657 and Selden's did in 1618.

Selden did, however, teach tithes. But what He revealed was that the State had the legal right to demand tithes but not the Divine right. In other words, there was no Biblical authority for monetary tithes. His book, A Historie of Tythes, enraged the State Church and the king of England.

[quote author=i.chuka]@op
great post!!but those that will argue will always do so.i really don't knw why some brethren cant see/undrstand that tithe was never part of the Gospel of Christ which is Grace!!
cheers bro![/quote]thank you!

I really did not need this book to prove to me that we sre not required to tithe, the Bible proves that fact on its own.

But, the book confirms he fact that tithes are not required.

Image123: Feel free to add this to your impressive collection.
GoodNews
1Co 16:1 Now, concerning what you wrote about the money to be raised to help God's people in Judea. You must do what I told the churches in Galatia to do.
1Co 16:2 Every Sunday each of you must put aside some money, in proportion to what you have earned, and save it up, so that there will be no need to collect money when I come.

International Standard Version
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, you should follow the directions I gave to the churches in Galatia.
1Co 16:2 On the first day of the week, each of you should set aside and save some of your money[b] in proportion to[/b] what you have, so that no collections will have to be made when I come.

It was so clear from my KJV before i saw these other ones. as God hath is a simple ratio. This is basic math.

no thanks. They don't fall into the category of "prior to the nineteenth century." They would stand out as not belonging to the group.

The KJV nowhere states proportion, nor does it imply proportion.

This is taken from a book written in 1657 A.D., by Anthony Pearson. The book is titled, "A Case of Tithes".
It clearly reveals, using the writings of historical characters, that the Early Church did not teach a monetary tithe, but encouraged free will offerings.
A View of the Doctrines, Decrees and Prac-
tices of Tything, from the Infancy of
the Christian Church until this Day.

But in the Fulness of Time, God raised up another Priest, Christ Jesus, who was not of the Tribe of Levi, nor consecrated after the Order of Aaron; for He pertained to another Tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the Altar, who (having obtained a more excellent Ministry, of a greater and more perfect Tabernacle, not of the former Building, being the Sum and Substance of all the Patterns of Things under the first Covenant) put an End to the first Priesthood, with all its Shadows, Figures and carnal Ordinances, and changing the Priesthood, which had a Command to take Tythes of their Brethren, there was made of Necessity also a Change of the Law, and a Disannulling of the Commandment going before, which was but imposed until the Time of Reformation.

And the Apostles and Ministers of Christ Jesus, when He had finished His Office upon Earth, by offering up Himself through the Eternal Spirit, a Sacrifice without Spot unto God, did not look back to the Ordinances of the former Priesthood, but testified an End was put unto them; and witnessed against the Temple, wherein the Priests ministered, for which Stephen was stoned to death; against Circumcision, saying, It was not that of the flesh; against the Passover, Priests, etc., and preached up Christ Jesus and His Doctrine, the new and living Way, which was not made manifest while as the first Tabernacle was standing. Nor did they go about to establish the Law by which Tythes were given in the former Priesthood, but freely they preached the Gospel which they had received, and did not require any settled Maintenance, but lived of the free Offerings and Contributions of the Saints, who by their Ministry were turned to Christ Jesus.

At Jerusalem and thereabouts, such was the Unity of Heart amongst the Saints in the Apostles Time, that all Things were in common, and none wanted; and as many as were Possessors of Lands or Houses, sold them, and brought the Price and laid it down at the Apostles Feet, and it was distributed unto every Man according as he had Need.

So the Church gathered by *Mark at Alexandrea in Egypt, followed the same Rule as the Saints did at Jerusalem, having all things in common; And Philo Judaeus a famous Author of that Time reporteth, that not only there, but in many other Provinces, the Christians lived together in Societies.

In the Churches at Antioch, the Saints possessed every Man hos own Estate; so likewise in Galatia and Corinth, where the Apostles ordained, that Weekly-Offerings for the Saints should be made by every one as God had blessed him; and by these Offerings (which were put into the hands of the Deacons of the Churches) were all the Services and Needs of the Church Supplied.

By example of these, the Course of Monthly Offerings succeeded in the next Ages, not exacted, but freely given at the Bounty of every Man, as appears plainly by Tertullian in Apologet. ch. 39. where, upbraiding the Gentiles with the Piety and Devotion of Christians, he saith, “Whatsoever we have in the Treasury of our Churches, is not raised by Taxation, as though we put Men to ransom their Religion, but every Man once a Month, or when it pleaseth himself, bestoweth what he thinks good, and not without he lusteth; for no man is compelled, but left free to his own Discretion: and that which is given is not bestowed in Vanity, but in relieving the Poor, and upon Children destitute of Parents, and Maintenance of Aged and Feeble Persons, Men wrecked by Sea, and such as are condemned to the MetalMines, banished into Islands, or cast into Prison, professing the true God and the Christian Faith.”

And this Way of Contribution continued in the Church, till the great Persecution under Maximinian and Dioclesian, about the Year 304, as Eusebius testifieth, which also appears by the Writings of Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, and others.

About this time also, some Lands began to be given to the Church, and the Revenue of them was brought into the Treasury of the Church, and belonged to the Church in common, and was distributed as other Offerings, by the Deacons and Elders; but the Bishops or Ministers meddled not therewith: for *Origen saith, “It is not lawful for any Minister of the Church to possess Lands (given to the Church) to his own Use.” And called to the Ministers, “Let us depart from the Priests of Pharaoh, who enjoy earthly Possessions, to the Priests of the Lord, who have no Portion in the Earth.” And in another place he saith, “It behoveth us to be faithful in disposing the Rents of the Church, that we our selves devour not those Things that belong to the Widows and the Poor, and let us be content with simple Diet and necessary Apparel.” And Urban Bishop of Rome, Anno 227, did declare, “That the Church might receive Lands and Possessions offered by the Faithful, but not to any particular Man’s Benefit, but that the Revenues thereof, should be distributed as other Offerings, as Need required.”

Cyprian Bishop of Carthage, about the Year 250, also testifieth the same, and sheweth, that the Church maintained many Poor, and that her own Diet was sparing and plain, and all her Expenses full of Frugality.

**Prosper also saith, that a Minister able to live of himself, ought not to participate of the Goods of the Church; for saith he, “They that have of their own, and yet desire to have somewhat given them, do not receive it without great Sin.

The Council at Antioch, Anno 340, (finding that much Fault had been among the Deacons, to whom it properly belonged) did ordain, that the Bishops might distribute the Goods of the Church, but required that they took not any Part to themselves, or to the Use of the Priests and Brethren that lived with them, unless that Necessity did justly require it, using the Words of the Apostle, “Having Food and Raiment, be therewith content.”

In these Times, in many Places, the Christian Converts joined themselves in Societies, and chose a separate Life, selling what they had, and living together in common, after the Example of the former Saints about Jerusalem, as Chrysostom notes, who lived about the year 400, by whole Writings it also appears, that there was not the least Use or Practice of the Payment of Tythes in those former Ages.

The Church now living altogether by Free Offerings of Lands, Money and Goods, the People were much pressed to bountiful Contributions for holy Uses, as may be seen by the Writings of Hieron and Chrysostom, who brought the Jewish Liberality in their Payments of Tenths, for an Example, beneath which they would not have Christians determine their Charity; where Chrysostom says, he speaks these things not as commanding or forbidding that they should give more, yet as thinking it fit that they should not give less than the tenth Part

Image123: If you were not hasty to jump into the discussion, you may have noticed that i never said that proportion means 10%. Nobody said that, i wonder why you introduced such fallacy. Mark said christians don't give proportion. Even quoted many versions to hide from this simple fact. i showed that there is nothing wrong or unbiblical about giving in proportion. Like you tried to prove, it is common sense to give in proportion. No one should be stopped or hassled from giving in proportion whatever the proportion, be it 10% or whatever.

Why do you lie agaisnt me as you do?

I did not say "Christians do not pay proportion." What I said was the all of the versions I have prior to the 19th Century say nothing of propoortion in 1 Corinthians 16:2. They show prosperity. The Greek word for the word "proportion" is not found in that verse in any of the earlier translations, and the Greek word that is used simply means "helped along the road."

Reading the verse with the phrase "helped along the road" reveals that God is not speaking of a set proportion or percentage. Rather, He simply instructs the saints at Corinth to help those poor Saints in Jersualem as He had previously helped them.

God expects us to freely give as we ourselves have freely given. That is the doctrine we should derive from 1 Corinthians 16:2; not percentage.

DrummaBoy: I did.

The message: you must honour God by obeying all his commandment (including tithing as stipulated in Malachi 3). Yes, he didnt mention tithing (yet) but would eventually as d title of d video shows.

That is an adequate response: American theology jam American theology

Exactly! The very title, "The Two Tithing Systems" [/b]reveals that the point the speaker is trying to convey is that God expects tithes. (which he doesn't)

If the message were not about tithes, why even name the message with [b]"Tithing" in the title?

One does not need to watch the video to know that the message is about tithing. The video is only a small part of the entire message. The message, in its entirety, was pushing tithes. I did watch the message, btw. I agreed with something that Creflo said, "Ignorance is our enemy." I said something similar in a sermon I delivered just the other day; "You cannot battle error when you are ignorant to the truth."

Creflo went on to speak about the importance of training, how that if one trains properly the things of God will flow. I agree with that as well. But I do not agree with it in the reason it was said. The reason Creflo said it was to impress among the minds of the hearers the importance of obeying God... in this case, obey God in tithing.

I do believe we are to obey God when God tells us to do something. But the facts are God never told us to tithe. Creflo's entire sermon is built upon a lie.. he just inserts bits of truth within the sermon to make it seem good. Seeming good and being good are two different things.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Even Jerome's Latin Vulgate, written in 405 A.D., SAYS NOTHING OF PROPORTION.

1 Corinthians 16:2
Per unam sabbati unusquisque vestrum apud se seponat, recondens quod ei bene placuerit: ut non, cum venero, tunc collectæ fiant.

TRANSLATION:
1 Corinthians 16:2 Through the week let every one of you, with themselves, set aside, up what it shall well please him: that I should not, when I come, the collections be made at that time.

Image123: As usual, you come off s someone who does not read to understand but to quickly hit the reply button. The phrase in line is "as God hath".
Here is the passage again, goodnews i think.


1Co 16:1 Now, concerning what you wrote about the money to be
raised to help God's people in Judea. You must do what I told the
churches in Galatia to do.
1Co 16:2 Every Sunday each of you must put aside some money, in
proportion to what you have earned, and save it up, so that there will
be no need to collect money when I come.

i not only read to understand, but I also study to understand.

I have eight Bibles written over four centuries, spanning from the 1300's to 1755. Not one of them use the word "proportion" in 1 Corinthians 16:2. Notice:

The Wycliffe Bible (1395)
1 Corinthians 16:1
But of the gaderyngis of money that ben maad in to seyntis, as Y ordeynede in the chirchis of Galathie, so also do ye o dai of the wouke.
1 Corinthians 16:2
Ech of you kepe at hym silf, kepynge that that plesith to him, that whanne Y come, the gaderyngis ben not maad.


Tyndale Bible (1525)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Of the gadderynge for the saynctes as I have ordeyned in the congregacios of Galacia even so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:2
Vpon some sondaye let every one of you put a syde at home and laye vp what soever he thinketh mete that ther be no gaderinges when I come.


Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Concernynge the gadderynge that is made for the sayntes, as I haue ordeyned in the congregacions of Galacia, euen so do ye also.
1 Corinthians 16:2
Vpon some Sabbath daye let euery one of you put aside by him selfe, and laye vp what so euer he thinketh mete, that the colleccion be not to gather whan I come.


The Bishop's Bible (1568)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Concerning the gatheryng for the saintes, as I haue ordeined in the Churches of Galacia, euen so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon some Sabboth daye, let euery one of you put asyde by hym selfe, and laye vp as God hath prospered hym, that then there be no gatherynges when I come.


The Geneva Bible (1587)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Concerning the gathering for the Saintes, as I haue ordeined in the Churches of Galatia, so doe ye also.
1 Corinthians 16:2
Euery first day of the weeke, let euery one of you put aside by himselfe, and lay vp as God hath prospered him, that then there be no gatherings when I come.


King James Version (1611)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Now concerning the collection for the Saints, as I haue giuen order to the Churches of Galatia, euen so doe ye.
1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the weeke, let euery one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


Mace New Testament (1729)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Now as to the collection for the converts at Jerusalem, do as I have directed for the churches of Galatia.
1 Corinthians 16:2
every sabbath-day let every one of you set apart something of what he has happily gain'd, for the common treasury, that there may be no collection when I come.


Wesley's New Testament (1755)
1 Corinthians 16:1
Concerning the collection for the saints, as I have ordered the churches of Galatia, so also do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of the week, let every one of you lay by him in store according as he hath been prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.

Image123: When they want to put wool over our eyes, they will jump into seminary speeches. Any literate knows what proportion is. It is ratio, percentage, as God has, in ratio to, in proportion to how God has prospered you. No need to fly off tangent updating us on the greek of prosper. i did not mention prosper, i quoted Bible and Bible states proportion.

funny, i quoted Bible. And Bible states prospered, not proportion.

I will quote it one more:

1 Corinthians 16:2 (KJV) 2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Of interest, not one version translated into the English tongue prior to the nineteenth century used the word "proportion" in that verse.

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The word "prospered" is translated from the Greek word "euodoo", which means, "from a compound of 2095 and 3598; to help on the road, i.e. (passively) succeed in reaching; figuratively, to succeed in business affairs:--(have a) prosper(-ous journey)."

euodoo was never translated as proportion in the Bible. The word used by the Greeks for "proportion" was the word "analogia". Found only in one verse of the New Testament.

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Back to 1 Corinthians 16:2. That verse was not speaking of proportion or percentage. It was speaking of prosperity. As God had made them prosperous.

Paul also was not speaking of tithes. He was speaking of a collection for the saints at Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 16:1-4 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

The Greek word for "collection" was the word "logia." Again, nothing to do with tithes. Had Paul been speaking of tithes, he would have used the word "apodekatoo." Paul did not use the Greek for "tithes" in any of his epistles. The collection in 1 Corinthians 16 was merely a love offering to ease burdened saints in Jerusalem.

Uche ernest: the bible said 'as far as the earth remains seed time and harvest time shall not cease'. This means if i sow money i will definitely reap money, jesus christ also said 'give, and it shall be given unto you. So in order to recieve you/i have to give.

What did God say would not cease? What is the context? It is not speaking of tithes. The context:

Genesis 8:21-22 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The context was cursing the ground and destroying the entire population again. Had nothing to do whatsoever with money.

Learn to rightly divide the Word of Truth.